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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` __________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` __________
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` GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY,
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` Petitioner,
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` v.
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` UNITED TECHNOLOGIES CORPORATION,
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` Patent Owner.
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` __________
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` IPR2016-01289
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` Patent No. 7,060,360
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` __________
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` Washington, D.C.
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` March 1, 2017
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` CROSS-EXAMINATION OF
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` ANDREAS M. GLAESER, Ph.D.
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`UTC 2014
`General Electric v. United Technologies
`IPR2016-01289
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 2
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` Cross-Examination of ANDREAS M.
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`GLAESER, Ph.D., a witness herein, called for
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`examination by counsel for Patent Owner in the
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`above-entitled matter, was taken on Wednesday,
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`March 1, 2017, commencing at 9:05 a.m. at the law
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`offices of Weil Gotshal & Manges, LLP, 1300 Eye
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`Street, NW, Suite 900, Washington, D.C. 20005 by
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`Cappy Hallock, Registered Professional Reporter,
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`Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified Livenote
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`Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
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`District of Columbia.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S:
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` ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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` LAUREN A. DEGNAN, ESQUIRE
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` Fish & Richardson, P.C.
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` 1425 K Street NW, 11th Floor
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` Washington, D.C. 20005
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` 202-783-5070
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` degnan@fr.com
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` -and-
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` DAVID L. HOLT, ESQUIRE
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` Fish & Richardson, P.C.
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` 601 Lexington Avenue, 52nd Floor
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` New York, New York 10022
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` 212-765-5070
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` david.holt@fr.com
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` -and-
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` GRETCHEN A. DeVRIES, Ph.D.
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` Fish & Richardson, P.C.
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` One Marina Park Drive
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` Boston, Massachusetts 02210-1878
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` 617-542-5070 (P) 617-542-8906 (F)
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` DeVries@fr.com
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 4
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` A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued)
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` ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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` ANISH DESAI, ESQUIRE
`
` MEGAN H. WANTLAND, ESQUIRE
`
` Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
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` 300 Eye Street, NW, Suite 900
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` Washington, D.C. 20005
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` 202-682-7271 (P) 202-360-0348 (F)
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` anish.desai@weil.com
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` megan.wantland@weil.com
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`ALSO PRESENT:
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` Troy Prince, Esq.
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` Pratt & Whitney
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`Videographer: TJ O'Toole, CLVS
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`Reported by: Cappy Hallock, RPR, CRR, CLR
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 5
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` C O N T E N T S
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` Deposition of ANDREAS M. GLAESER, Ph.D.
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` March 1, 2017
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`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
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` Ms. Degnan 7
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` -o0o-
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` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
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`GE PAGE
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`Exhibit 1003 Glaeser declaration9 10
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`Exhibit 1025 Webster reference 40
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`Exhibit 1005 Terentieva patent 51
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`Exhibit 1006 Eaton patent 72
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`Exhibit 1024 Suzuki reference 91
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` - - - - - -
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` THE VIDEO OPERATOR: All right, stand
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`by, please.
`
` On the record with Disc 1 of the video
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`deposition of Andreas Glaeser, taken by the
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`Patent Owner in the matter of General Electric
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`Company versus United Technologies Corporation,
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`being heard before the United States Patent &
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`Trademark Office, before the Patent Trial and
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`Appeal Board, Case Number IPR2016-01289.
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` This deposition is being held at the
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`Law Offices of Weil Gotshal located at 1300 Eye
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`Street, Northwest, in Washington, D.C. on March
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`1st, 2017 at approximately 9:07 a.m.
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` My name is TJ O'Toole. I'm the
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`Certified Legal Video Specialist. The court
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`reporter is Cappy Hallock. We are both here
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`representing GregoryEdwards LLC.
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` Will counsel please introduce
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`themselves and indicate which parties they
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`represent.
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 7
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` MS. DEGNAN: Good morning. This is
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`Lauren Degnan with Fish & Richardson. I
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`represent the Patent Owner, United Technologies
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`Corporation. I am joined by two of my colleagues
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`from Fish & Richardson, David Holt and Gretchen
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`DeVries, as well as Troy Print with United
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`Technologies.
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` MR. DESAI: Anish Desai here from Weil
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`Gotshall representing General Electric. Also
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`with me is Meghan Wantland from Weil Gotshall.
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` THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Thank you.
`
` Will the court reporter please swear
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`in the witness.
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`WHEREUPON,
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` ANDREAS M. GLAESER, Ph.D.,
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` A Witness called for examination,
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`having been first duly sworn, was examined and
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`testified as follows:
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` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. DEGNAN:
`
` Q Good morning.
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` A Good morning.
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 8
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` Q Dr. Glaeser, would you please state
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`your full name for the record?
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` A Andreas Glaeser.
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` Q I am going to go over a few ground
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`rules for the deposition today, if you don't
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`mind.
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` A Okay.
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` Q You understand you are under oath
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`today?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you are supposed to tell the
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`truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
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`right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And just like we are in court?
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` A Um-hmm.
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` Q Yes?
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` And you must give truthful, accurate
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`and complete testimony. Do you understand that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q If you don't understand a question
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`will you please let me know? Yes?
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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` A I will, yes.
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` Q And if you do answer it is fair to
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`conclude that you understood the question, right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q If at any time you want to change an
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`answer that you gave or you want to add to your
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`answer just let me know.
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` A Okay.
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` Q We will take breaks throughout the
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`day, probably every hour. That's kind of what I
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`usually need, but if you need one earlier just
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`let me know.
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` A All right. I will do that.
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` Q Is there any reason you cannot give
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`true, accurate and complete testimony today?
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` A No.
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` Q Are you on any medication that might
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`impair your ability to do so?
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` A No.
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` Q If that changes will you let me know?
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` A Yes, I will.
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` MR. DESAI: Me, too.
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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` MS. DEGNAN: So I am going to hand to
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`you what has been previously marked Exhibit
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`GE-1003.
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` (Previously marked GE Exhibit No.
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`1003, first referral.)
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`BY MS. DEGNAN:
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` Q Do you recognize it?
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` A Yes. This is the declaration that I
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`prepared.
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` Q How long did you spend, approximately,
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`preparing this declaration?
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` A I have a hard time saying exactly how
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`many hours I did because it was distributed over
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`a number of months. It was more than ten hours.
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`It was less than one hundred in all likelihood.
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`That's about as good a range as I could give you
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`and give you an honest answer.
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` Q Fair enough.
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` Does that range of between ten and one
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`hundred hours include the time you spent
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`analyzing the prior art that you discussed in
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`that declaration?
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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` A It includes that time, yes.
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` Q Okay.
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` So if we may turn to Pages 2 and 3 and
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`4 of your declaration there is a table that
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`indicates documents you say you reviewed.
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` A Yes.
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` Q Did you locate those documents
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`yourself or did the attorneys with whom you are
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`working provide them?
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` A I located some of them, quite a few of
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`them actually, and others were provided, for
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`example, the original patents and so on. Most of
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`those documents I received from the attorneys,
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`but the majority of what is here are things that
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`I looked up and found through online searches.
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` Q Okay.
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` Can you identify, I guess, besides the
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`patent you mentioned, and is there anything else
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`on the list that you remember that the attorneys
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`provided to you?
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` A Well, 1, 2 and 5 were provided. And
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`8 -- when I say 8 I mean GE-1008.
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` The rest of these are things that I
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`either already had in my files as a result of
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`work that I had done previously, or found by
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`searching the literature. So the ones that I
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`identified are the ones that I remember being
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`provided by counsel.
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` Q So this declaration, Exhibit 1003,
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`does it represent all the analysis you performed
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`in reaching your conclusions for this case?
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` A There were other papers that I read
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`and other things that I did that were in earlier
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`drafts of the declaration that ultimately got
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`culled, so there were more references and there
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`were other things that I looked at that I would
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`have expected a person of ordinary skill in the
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`art to have accessed and looked at in terms of
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`evaluating this. So there are other things that
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`I looked at and evaluated or relied on in terms
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`of information that I had had previously or used
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`in work of my own that I relied on that aren't
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`represented in this document or in this listing.
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` Q With respect to the conclusions you
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`reached regarding invalidity of the claims of the
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`'360 patent, is it fair to say that your entire
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`opinion is now reflected in your declaration?
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` A There are -- there are things and
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`considerations that add to what is in here that
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`are not explicitly included in this declaration.
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` Q And do you think this declaration is
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`deficient in some way?
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` A No. I don't think it is deficient. I
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`think it is when you have a question or a
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`question is raised, for example, by Professor
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`Clarke, then you look to see whether there is
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`additional information that can weigh on certain
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`issues that he raised. And obviously since that
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`came after the fact it's not included in this
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`declaration but it's literature that I looked at
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`and evaluated.
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` Q At the time that you executed your
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`declaration here, Exhibit 1003, did you believe
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`that your analysis that you set forth in the
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`declaration was sufficient to show that the
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`claims of the 630 patent are invalid?
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`Andreas M. Glaeser, Ph.D. - March 1, 2017
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`Page 14
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` A The '360 patent, yes.
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` Q Did you perform any calculations in
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`connection with preparing this declaration that
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`you omitted from the declaration?
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` A Not that I recall.
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` Q Did you intentionally omit any
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`analysis that would show that the claims of the
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`'360 patent are invalid over the prior art that
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`you highlight in your declaration?
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` A I'm sorry, could you repeat the
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`question?
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` Q Sure. Did you intentionally omit any
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`of your analysis showing that the claims of the
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`'360 patent are invalid over the art described in
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`your declaration?
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` A No, not that I know of.
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` Q Did you omit any testing results --
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`excuse me. Strike that.
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` Did you omit any results of any
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`testing you performed in connection with your
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`invalidity analysis of the declaration?
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` A Testing meaning experimental work and
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`Page 15
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`something that would be done in a lab?
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` Q Yes.
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` A No, I didn't do any lab work
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`associated with this.
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` Q Did you do any other kind of testing
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`associated with this declaration?
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` MR. DESAI: Objection, vague.
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` A The only kind of testing I'm aware of
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`would be testing against what is in the
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`literature and what has been reported in the
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`literature and doing experimental testing. I did
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`not do any experimental testing. There are
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`papers that I read that would touch on the claims
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`of the '360 patent that are not included in this
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`declaration because we thought they were
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`redundant and didn't need to be included. The
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`point was already made by enough references that
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`we felt this was sufficient.
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` Q Are you aware of any errors in your
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`declaration?
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` A There are some typos. But where there
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`might be a word missing, "pressure" I think is
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`Page 16
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`missing in one place, and water vapor. And I
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`think it's supposed to be water vapor pressure,
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`but other than that I'm not aware of any major --
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`any major errors. And I've read through it
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`several times, so ...
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` Q Do you want to tell me where that word
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`should go?
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` A I would really have to search through
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`that, and I would want to look at the original
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`reference to make sure that it's -- that it is,
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`in fact, a typo. But I was reading it and said I
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`think there is supposed to be a "pressure" here,
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`and perhaps it didn't make it in here.
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` Q But you're not aware of any
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`substantive errors in the declaration?
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` A No. These are not -- I think the
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`intent was clear enough that if it was a typo you
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`kind of read past it and didn't really -- didn't
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`really notice that anything substantive was
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`missing from the document.
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` Q Today you stand by everything you said
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`in the declaration?
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` A Yes.
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` Q All right. Let's turn to Paragraph 4
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`of your declaration.
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` A Yes.
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` Q In this paragraph you discuss the
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`qualifications of a person of ordinary skill in
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`the art, correct?
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` A Um-hmm.
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` Q You mention that such a person would
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`have at least three to five years of experience
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`in the field of high-temperature materials and
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`composites, right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Is it your opinion that this field
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`necessarily includes knowledge of coatings?
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` A That this field experience -- that
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`experience in the field of high-temperature
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`materials and composites would include explicitly
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`coatings, is that what your --
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` Q Yes.
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` A I think it -- I think the person would
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`need to be aware of the issues that arise in
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`coatings, and those would be issues like chemical
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`incompatibility. Those would be issues of
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`thermal expansion compatibility. There would be
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`issues of residual stresses in coating systems.
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`There would be issues of evolution in coating
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`systems that are used at high temperature. And
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`that kind of experience could be achieved and
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`there would be parallels to that in other fields
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`of high-temperature materials that aren't
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`explicitly coating related.
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` So I don't think the person would
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`necessarily have to be an expert in the field of
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`coatings because it's the fundamental issues of
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`chemical compatibility, thermal expansion,
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`mismatch, stress and strain, stability that are,
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`in my view at least, overarching issues, and they
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`are not specific or limited to just the field of
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`coatings. Familiarity with coatings would
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`obviously be beneficial if one were working in
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`this. It's hard to imagine someone wouldn't
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`become familiar with the literature in the
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`coatings area.
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` Q You said knowledge of coatings would
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`be beneficial. But would someone of ordinary
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`skill in the art have such knowledge or would he
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`have to have such knowledge to qualify as one of
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`ordinary skill in the art under your definition?
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` MR. DESAI: Objection, form.
`
` A I think that someone who has worked,
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`for example, in the field of joining, who has
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`worked in the field of high-temperature
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`composites, who has worked on designing
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`composites, who has worked on designing of
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`multilayers, if they are not in the deposition
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`field, they are not in that aspect of coating
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`technology, they are not a practitioner of
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`coating but they are aware of the issues that
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`arise in coatings.
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` So again, I come back to this someone
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`who is familiar with the issues that are involved
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`in coating, do I have to have put a coating on
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`something to be able to comment on this patent?
`
`No, I don't think so.
`
` Q You had mentioned something in your
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`Page 20
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`earlier answer that, if I wrote it down
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`correctly, is evolution of coatings.
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` A Um-hmm.
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` Q What did you mean by that?
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` A When you put dissimilar materials
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`together you have a dissimilar material
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`interface, so I have material A and material B.
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`That kind of an interface would also arise, for
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`example, in a composite material where I have a
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`fiber or a particulate material and I have two
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`phases that are involved, two chemically,
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`structurally distinct materials or more than two
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`phases involved.
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` Then there are issues that occur at
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`the interface between those two phases. For
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`example, are the materials chemically compatible?
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`Do they react with one another? Is there a
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`reaction layer? If I have this material at
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`elevated temperature do I diffuse one component
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`into the other? To what extent does that happen?
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`To what extent does that undermine the properties
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`of the material?
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`Page 21
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` There are parallel issues when you
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`have coatings in the sense that if I have A and
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`B, they may evolve over time as a result of those
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`kind of interactions. And there are many
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`examples in the thermal barrier coating
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`literature, particularly the older literature
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`that deals with nickel-based superalloy type
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`turbine blades where reaction layers develop.
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` But a person who understands
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`high-temperature materials, who understands
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`thermodynamics wouldn't necessarily have to be a
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`coatings expert in order to appreciate that
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`problem and be able to voice on that problem and
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`express an opinion on that problem.
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` Q Is it your view that someone with at
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`least three to five years of experience in the
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`field of high-temperature materials and
`
`composites necessarily works with coatings?
`
` A No, I don't think they necessarily
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`work with coatings.
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` Q As of May 22nd, 2003 do you believe
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`you met the qualifications you set forth
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`Page 22
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`regarding a person of ordinary skill in the art?
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` A I think I -- I think I do for various
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`reasons. Academically I've taught courses in
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`thermodynamics, which is a critical issue in
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`these kinds of materials used in high-temperature
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`environments. I have taught courses in phase
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`transformations, diffusion and these kind of
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`interactions between materials that are adjoining
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`to one another, can involve phase transformations
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`and do involve diffusion of one specie to
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`somewhere else.
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` I've taught courses on phase diagrams,
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`which phase diagrams tell you, give you a map for
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`what is stable at what temperature in a given
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`composition system. I've worked on joining of
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`materials using multilayer foils, so there is
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`a -- there is a coating aspect in that work.
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`There we design these to evolve in a particular
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`way and produce joints between ceramic
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`materials --
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` Q Can I interrupt you for a second? I
`
`think you may have misunderstood my question.
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`Page 23
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`I'm not asking whether today you meet the
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`definition but in May 22nd of 2003 do you believe
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`you met the definition that you provided for a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art.
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` A I was engaged in all of these -- all
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`of these activities that I was describing and a
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`host of others by 2003, yes. So you always learn
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`more over time, but I think at the time that this
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`patent was, or was issued or filed for that -- at
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`that time I did have the background that would
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`have been necessary.
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` Q Okay. Let's turn to Paragraph 8 of
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`your declaration, Exhibit 1003.
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` A Um-hmm.
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` Q In this paragraph you mention work
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`that you performed that is relevant to thermal
`
`barrier coatings.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What are thermal barrier coatings?
`
` A They are coatings applied to turbine
`
`blades and other components in high-temperature
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`Page 24
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`engines with the intention of dropping the
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`temperature of the component. So, for example,
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`in the case of nickel-based superalloys, to
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`extend the lifetime of those alloys by keeping
`
`them at temperatures where they have adequate
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`performance. Those original thermal barrier
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`coatings were typically made of a zirconium
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`material which is the material that I worked on
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`and was the basis for this work that was relevant
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`to thermal barrier coatings. In particular it
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`dealt with yttria-stabilized zirconia. So I
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`don't know if I have -- if that's a sufficient
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`answer for you or if you would like me to go into
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`more detail and provide, you know -- and provide
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`additional --
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` Q You mention that the thermal barrier
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`coatings drop the temperature?
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` A Yes.
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` Q So that the --
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` A Relative to the engine and air
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`temperature, yes.
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` Q So if I understand this, you would
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`Page 25
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`have high temperature in the air, you would have
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`the thermal coating, and you would have the
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`turbine blade itself that is being protected?
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` A The temperature is being dropped at
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`the surface of the turbine blade, yes.
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` Q So the temperature at the top of the
`
`coating is much higher than the temperature at
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`the blade itself?
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` A It depends on how thick the thermal
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`barrier is and how effective it is, but there is
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`a thermal temperature gradient that goes through
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`the barrier, yes.
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` Q Now, from a design perspective is it
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`the goal to make that temperature drop
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`significant?
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` A There are, at least in the case of the
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`nickel-based superalloys, temperatures that you
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`don't want to exceed because the microstructure
`
`changes. I don't recall what that temperature is
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`exactly, but the goal of bringing the thermal --
`
`putting a thermal barrier coating on is to allow
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`you to run the engine at higher temperature than
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`Page 26
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`that magic temperature for whatever alloy you are
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`using, so that you can get higher efficiency out
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`of the engine and do so using well-known
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`materials that have been very well-developed over
`
`the years in the metallurgical community.
`
` Q And the alloy we are talking about is
`
`the alloy of the blade itself?
`
` A That would be a nickel-based -- yes,
`
`typically a nickel-based superalloy.
`
` Q And you mentioned that using a thermal
`
`barrier coating allows one to extend the life of
`
`the blade; is that right?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And it does that by reducing thermal
`
`fatigue?
`
` A Reduces creep, reduces coarsening,
`
`reduces a number of things that occur in the
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`microstructure of the nickel-based superalloy.
`
` Q Is one of those things reducing
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`thermal fatigue?
`
` A I don't know exactly whether that's
`
`one of the key issues. I know that creep is one
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`of the key issues. I know that you don't want a
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`phase change to occur that would occur if the
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`alloy got too hot.
`
` Q Does the thermal barrier coating also
`
`extend the life by reducing oxidation on the
`
`substrate, the blade?
`
` A That depends on how you define the
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`thermal barrier coating versus the thermal
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`barrier coating system. Typical thermal barrier
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`coatings are either plasma sprayed,
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`yttria-stabilized zirconia, which means that you
`
`have droplets of things being sprayed onto the
`
`surface. Those tend to form very open kinds of
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`structures.
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` If you imagine throwing partially
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`molten marbles or something at a surface and they
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`stick to one another, they have internal cracks,
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`they have significant porosity. And then
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`those -- the other technique for making these is
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`called E-beam PVD --
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` THE REPORTER: Is called?
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` A E-beam PVD, and that produces a
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`columnar structure. It's almost like trees, if
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`you can imagine, a forest of closely spaced pine
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`trees with that kind of structure. They actually
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`open up, so at least initially they open up.
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`They tend to age and then center which is one of
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`the problems in thermal barrier coating long-term
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`stability.
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` But the material, yttria-stabilized
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`zirconia, provides essentially no resistance to
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`oxygen. The primary purpose of these is to drop
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`the temperature.
`
` Q So are you aware of any thermal
`
`barrier coatings that also reduce oxidation?
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` A Well, the way thermal barrier coatings
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`are done, and again, this is why I contrasted the
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`thermal barrier, which is the yttria-stabilized
`
`zirconia, from the thermal barrier coating
`
`system, because the system includes a layer that
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`develops an alumina layer. It's referred to in
`
`the trade as a TGO, a thermally grown oxide, and
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`this is a layer of aluminum oxide that develops
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`when oxygen comes in from the outside and
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`oxidizes the aluminum that is in the alloy.
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`There is an alloy layer that's placed on the
`
`outside of the nickel-based superalloy. And that
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`is one of the primary functions of that alloy is
`
`to form this thermally grown oxide.
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` Aluminum oxide along with silica,
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`Si02, have very low diffusion coefficients for
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`oxygen, so that layer when it forms and as it
`
`thickens prevents an ingress of oxygen into the
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`underlying nickel-based superalloy. And so it's
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`that layer, that TGO, that the actual thermal
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`barrier coating material, the yttria-stabilized
`
`zirconia, is attached to in thermal barrier
`
`coatings on nickel-based superalloys --
`
` Q So putting aside --
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` A -- so that combination of that alumina
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`layer, and that has the effect of both dropping
`
`the temperature and preventing oxidation, so
`
`together they work as a system.
`
` Q So thermal barrier coating systems,
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`you would agree, do both drop the temperature and
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`provide reduction of oxidation, right?
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` A Effective ones, yes.
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` Q The ones that you design.
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` But the thermal barrier coatings by
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`themselves, in your view, do not reduce
`
`oxidation?
`
` A Yttria-stabilized zirconia, and this
`
`is discussed in many places, and in particular
`
`these PVD structures, because they open up --
`
`they actually have gaps between these columns
`
`that can open up as the material heats, heats or
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`cools, depending on which way the thermal
`
`expansion mismatches go -- essentially provide no
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`barrier to oxygen, and oxygen diffusion in
`
`zirconia is very rapid.
`
` Q So you are directing me back to a
`
`specific kind of thermal barrier coating. I want
`
`to ask more broadly.
`
` Is it your view that there is no
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`thermal barrier coating out there that also
`
`reduces oxidation?
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` MR. DESAI: Objection, outside the
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`scope of the declaration.
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