·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2
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`·3· ·R.J. REYNOLDS VAPOR COMPANY,· ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·4· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · -vs-· · · · · · · · · )· Case No. IPR2016-01268
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Patent 8,365,742
`·6· ·FONTEM HOLDINGS 1 B.V.,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· ·)
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · ·Videotaped deposition of ROBERT H. STURGES,
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`10· ·JR., PH.D., P.E., taken before TRACY L. BLASZAK, CSR,
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`11· ·CRR, and Notary Public, pursuant to the Rules of the
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`12· ·United States Patent and Trademark Office pertaining to
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`13· ·the taking of depositions, at Suite 3600, 455 North
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`14· ·Cityfront Plaza Drive, in the City of Chicago, Cook
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`15· ·County, Illinois at 9:10 a.m. on the 18th day of July,
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`16· ·A.D., 2017.
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`· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2
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`·3· ·R.J. REYNOLDS VAPOR COMPANY,· ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·4· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · -vs-· · · · · · · · · )· Case No. IPR2016-01268
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Patent 8,365,742
`·6· ·FONTEM HOLDINGS 1 B.V.,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· ·)
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · ·Videotaped deposition of ROBERT H. STURGES,
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`10· ·JR., PH.D., P.E., taken before TRACY L. BLASZAK, CSR,
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`11· ·CRR, and Notary Public, pursuant to the Rules of the
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`12· ·United States Patent and Trademark Office pertaining to
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`13· ·the taking of depositions, at Suite 3600, 455 North
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`14· ·Cityfront Plaza Drive, in the City of Chicago, Cook
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`15· ·County, Illinois at 9:10 a.m. on the 18th day of July,
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`16· ·A.D., 2017.
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`·1· · · · · · ·There were present at the taking of this
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`·2· ·deposition the following counsel:
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`·3
`· · · · · · · BRINKS GILSON & LIONE by
`·4· · · · · · MR. ROBERT S. MALLIN and
`· · · · · · · MR. YUEZHONG FENG, PH.D.
`·5· · · · · · NBC Tower - Suite 3600
`· · · · · · · 455 North Cityfront Plaza Drive
`·6· · · · · · Chicago, Illinois 60611
`· · · · · · · rmallin@brinksgilson.com
`·7· · · · · · yfeng@brinksgilson.com
`· · · · · · · (312) 321-4200
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · ·on behalf of the Petitioner;
`·9
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`10· · · · · · PERKINS COIE by
`· · · · · · · MR. JOSEPH HAMILTON
`11· · · · · · 1888 Century Park East
`· · · · · · · Suite 1700
`12· · · · · · Los Angeles, California 90067
`· · · · · · · jhamilton@perkinscoie.com
`13· · · · · · (310) 788-3271
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`14· · · · · · · · ·on behalf of the Patent Owner;
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`15
`· · · · · · · ALSO PRESENT:· Mr. Slawomir Kojro
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Legal videographer.
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`17
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - - - -
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`· · · · · · · · ROBERT H. STURGES, JR., PH.D., P.E.
`·2
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·July 18, 2017
`·3
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`·4· · ·EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·5· ·Mr. Joseph Hamilton· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·84
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`· · ·Mr. Robert S. Mallin· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 80
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`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
`·9
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`12· ·Deposition Exhibit 2029· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·49
`· · · ·(Deposition transcript of Sturges 5/10/17)
`13
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
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`·1· · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY MARKED
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`·2
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`·3
`· · ·Deposition Exhibit 1001· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·63
`·4· · ·(U.S. patent No. 8,365,742)
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`·5· ·Deposition Exhibit 1003· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 9
`· · · ·(Hon patent right grant CN2719043Y)
`·6
`· · ·Deposition Exhibit 1004· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·66
`·7· · ·(Japanese patent application 2001-291598)
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`·8· ·Deposition Exhibit 1011· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·58
`· · · ·(U.S. patent No. 8,365,742 decision denying
`·9· · ·institution of inter partes review)
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`10· ·Deposition Exhibit 1015· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·83
`· · · ·(Declaration of Dr. Robert H. Sturges
`11· · ·regarding U.S. patent No. 8,365,742)
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`12· ·Deposition Exhibit 1027· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·37
`· · · ·(Reply declaration of Dr. Robert H.
`13· · ·Sturges)
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`14· ·Deposition Exhibit 1032· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·76
`· · · ·(A First Course, Macmillan Series in
`15· · ·Mechanical Engineering)
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · * * * * * *
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`·1· · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are on the video record.· This
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`·2· ·begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Robert H.
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`·3· ·Sturges in the matter of R.J. Reynolds Vapor Company vs.
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`·4· ·Fontem Holdings 1 B.V. in the United States Patent and
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`·5· ·Trademark Office, case No. IPR2016-01268.
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`·6· · · · · · Today's date is July 18, 2017.· The time on the
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`·7· ·video monitor is 9:10 a.m.
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`·8· · · · · · The video operator today is Slawomir Kojro of
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`·9· ·DTI.
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`10· · · · · · This video deposition is taking place as Brinks
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`11· ·Gilson & Lione, 455 North Cityfront Plaza Drive,
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`12· ·Chicago, Illinois.
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`13· · · · · · Counsel, please identify yourselves for the
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`14· ·record.
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`15· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· This is Joseph Hamilton representing
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`16· ·the patent owner, Fontem.
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`17· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Robert Mallin and Yuezhong Feng on
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`18· ·behalf of petitioner and Dr. Sturges.
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`19· · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The court reporter today is Tracy
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`20· ·Blaszak of DTI.
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`21· · · · · · Please swear in the witness.
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`·1· · · · · · ·ROBERT H. STURGES, JR., PH.D., P.E.,
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`·2· ·called as a witness herein, having been first duly
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`·3· ·sworn, was examined upon oral interrogatories and
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`·4· ·testified as follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·by Mr. Hamilton:
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`·7· · · ·Q· ·Good morning, Dr. Sturges.
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`·8· · · ·A· ·Good morning, Mr. Hamilton.
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`·9· · · ·Q· ·Welcome back.
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`10· · · · · · Could you state your full name for the record.
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`11· · · ·A· ·Robert Harold Sturges, Jr.
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`12· · · ·Q· ·Are you still employed?
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`13· · · ·A· ·I am.
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`14· · · ·Q· ·And are you still employed by VirginiaTech?
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`15· · · ·A· ·I am.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·What's your position there?
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`17· · · ·A· ·I am a professor of industrial engineering and
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`18· ·mechanical engineering.
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`19· · · ·Q· ·Has your position changed since you were last
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`20· ·deposed in this matter?
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`21· · · ·A· ·It has not.
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`22· · · ·Q· ·Do you recall being deposed in this matter?
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`23· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`24· · · ·Q· ·Do you understand you're under oath?
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`25· · · ·A· ·I do.
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`·1· · · ·Q· ·Are you on any medications or have any health
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`·2· ·conditions that could prevent you from testifying
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`·3· ·truthfully in this matter?
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`·4· · · ·A· ·No, I am not.
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`·5· · · ·Q· ·Is there any reason you cannot testify
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`·6· ·truthfully in this matter today?
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`·7· · · ·A· ·No reason at all.
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`·8· · · ·Q· ·Did you do any preparation for your deposition
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`·9· ·today?
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`10· · · ·A· ·I met with counsel for R.J. Reynolds.
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`11· · · ·Q· ·Who did you meet with?
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`12· · · ·A· ·I met with Mr. Mallin, Mr. Feng, and Mr. Gabric.
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`13· · · ·Q· ·When did you meet with counsel for R.J. Reynolds
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`14· ·in preparation for your deposition?
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`15· · · ·A· ·Yesterday and two days late last week.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·Where did you meet?
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`17· · · ·A· ·Here at Brinks Gilson.
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`18· · · ·Q· ·So if I understand right, that's a total of
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`19· ·three days of preparation, is that correct?
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`20· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`21· · · ·Q· ·And were Mr. Mallin, Mr. Feng, and Mr. Gabric
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`22· ·present on all three days?
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`23· · · ·A· ·No, Mr. Gabric dropped in from time to time.
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`24· · · ·Q· ·Was Mr. Mallin and Mr. Feng present on all three
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`25· ·days?
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`·1· · · ·A· ·Yes, they were.
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`·2· · · ·Q· ·Was anyone else present during any of those
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`·3· ·three days of meetings in preparation for your
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`·4· ·deposition?
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`·5· · · ·A· ·No.
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`·6· · · ·Q· ·Did anyone else participate in any other way in
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`·7· ·those meetings?
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`·8· · · ·A· ·No.
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`·9· · · ·Q· ·Other than those three meetings to prepare for
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`10· ·your deposition, did you do any other preparation for
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`11· ·your deposition?
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`12· · · ·A· ·I studied a large number of documents related to
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`13· ·this matter.
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`14· · · ·Q· ·When did you study those documents related to
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`15· ·this matter?
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`16· · · ·A· ·A few weeks prior to the meetings and over the
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`17· ·weekend.
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`18· · · ·Q· ·What documents did you study in preparation for
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`19· ·your deposition?
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`20· · · ·A· ·Oh, a large number.· My original declaration, my
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`21· ·reply declaration, many documents in binders from
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`22· ·Fontem's replies.
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`23· · · · · · I looked at deposition testimony of myself and
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`24· ·Fontem's experts.
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`25· · · ·Q· ·Did any of those documents refresh your
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`·1· ·recollection of any issue in this IPR?
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`·2· · · ·A· ·Several issues, yes.
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`·3· · · ·Q· ·Which documents?
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`·4· · · ·A· ·There were too many to count.
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`·5· · · ·Q· ·Do you remember any document that refreshed your
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`·6· ·recollection of any issue in this matter?
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`·7· · · ·A· ·Yes, my reply declaration and testimony of
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`·8· ·Mr. Meist, in particular, many others.
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`·9· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· I'm going to hand you what's been
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`10· ·previously marked as Exhibit 1003.
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`11· · · · · · (Exhibit 1003 previously marked and
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`12· · · · · · tendered.)
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`13· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·Do you recognize Exhibit 1003?
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`14· · · ·A· ·Yes, I do.
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`15· · · ·Q· ·What is Exhibit 1003?
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`16· · · ·A· ·It's what I have been referring to as the Hon
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`17· ·'043 patent.
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`18· · · ·Q· ·When you say referring to, you mean in your
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`19· ·declarations and prior testimony in this case?
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`20· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`21· · · ·Q· ·So today when I refer to Hon '043 or you refer
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`22· ·to Hon '043, is it fair to say we'll both be referring
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`23· ·to this document?
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`24· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`25· · · ·Q· ·If you look at the first page of Exhibit 1003,
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`·1· ·do you see a footer at the bottom above the footer that
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`·2· ·starts with R.J. Reynolds beginning Logic Tech, do you
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`·3· ·see that?
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`·4· · · ·A· ·Yes, I see that.
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`·5· · · ·Q· ·What does that footer mean?
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`·6· · · ·A· ·I'm not sure.· It was prepared by Logic Tech,
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`·7· ·apparently, and Bates numbers were put on it later.
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`·8· · · ·Q· ·Who is Logic Tech?
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`·9· · · ·A· ·I do not know.
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`10· · · ·Q· ·Can you turn to page 16 of Exhibit 1003.· Do you
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`11· ·see figure 6 there?
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`12· · · ·A· ·Yes, I do.
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`13· · · ·Q· ·What's shown in figure 6?
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`14· · · ·A· ·What's shown is a cross-section of what is
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`15· ·called in the patent an atomizer.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·Do you know what item is labeled 27 in figure 6?
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`17· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`18· · · ·Q· ·What is that?
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`19· · · ·A· ·A porous body.
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`20· · · ·Q· ·Is that also referred to as a porous component?
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`21· · · ·A· ·I believe so, yes.
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`22· · · ·Q· ·Is it your understanding that the atomizer shown
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`23· ·in figure 6 can be used in an electronic cigarette?
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`24· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`25· · · ·Q· ·And if the atomizer shown in Exhibit 6 is used
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`·1· ·in an electronic cigarette, which side of the atomizer
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`·2· ·shown in figure 6 would be closer to the mouthpiece of
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`·3· ·an electronic cigarette?
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`·4· · · ·A· ·That depends on the embodiment.
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`·5· · · ·Q· ·So when you say that depends on the embodiment,
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`·6· ·you mean there are multiple embodiments shown in Hon
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`·7· ·'043?
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`·8· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`·9· · · ·Q· ·And does the porous component shown in figure
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`10· ·6 -- Withdraw the question.
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`11· · · · · · What is item 25 in figure 6?
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`12· · · ·A· ·Item 25 is referred to as the cavity wall.
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`13· · · ·Q· ·And does the porous component item 27 completely
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`14· ·surround the cavity wall 25 in figure 6?
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`15· · · ·A· ·That is what the patent states, yes.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·And going back to the orientation of the
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`17· ·atomizer in an electronic cigarette, so you said it
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`18· ·depends on the embodiment which side of this atomizer in
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`19· ·figure 6 is closest to the mouthpiece, is that correct?
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`20· · · ·A· ·That's right.
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`21· · · ·Q· ·So in one embodiment is it correct to say that
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`22· ·the item labeled 36 is closest to the mouthpiece?
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`23· · · ·A· ·It is.
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`24· · · ·Q· ·And in another embodiment the opposite side of
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`25· ·36 is closest to the mouthpiece, is that correct?
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`·1· · · ·A· ·That's correct.
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`·2· · · ·Q· ·And 36, is that part of the porous component?
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`·3· · · ·A· ·Yes, it is.
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`·4· · · ·Q· ·So we're oriented properly, let's look at page
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`·5· ·13, figure 1.
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`·6· · · · · · Are you there?
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`·7· · · ·A· ·I am there.
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`·8· · · ·Q· ·Well, we were just talking about the
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`·9· ·orientation.· Is 15 the mouthpiece in that figure?
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`10· · · ·A· ·Yes, it is.
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`11· · · ·Q· ·And then the other end, can we refer to the
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`12· ·other end as the front tip of the electronic cigarette?
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`13· · · ·A· ·That's fair.
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`14· · · ·Q· ·Would it be fair to say that the front tip is
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`15· ·upstream in the electronic cigarette?
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`16· · · ·A· ·Upstream of the airflow in the cigarette, yes.
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`17· · · ·Q· ·So in figure 6 is the porous component shown as
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`18· ·between the front tip and the cavity of the electronic
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`19· ·cigarette in any orientation as shown in the Hon '043
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`20· ·reference?
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`21· · · ·A· ·I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.
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`22· · · ·Q· ·Sure.· Let me back up a little bit.
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`23· · · · · · So earlier we discussed that the porous
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`24· ·component completely -- Let me withdraw that question.
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`25· ·Let me reask it.· Hopefully it will be a little better.
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`·1· · · · · · So as shown in figure 6, is it correct to say
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`·2· ·that the porous component is between the front tip of an
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`·3· ·electronic cigarette and the cavity walls in all
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`·4· ·embodiments in Hon '043?
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`·5· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
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`·6· · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
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`·7· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·Is it fair to say that at least a
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`·8· ·portion of the porous component is between the front tip
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`·9· ·and the cavity walls in all embodiments shown in Hon
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`10· ·'043?
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`11· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Form; objection, form.
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`12· · · ·THE WITNESS:· A portion of 27, yes.
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`13· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·When you say a portion of 27, you
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`14· ·mean a portion of the porous component, correct?
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`15· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·So Hon '043 discloses a portion of the porous
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`17· ·component between the front tip and the cavity walls of
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`18· ·the atomizer in all embodiments, is that correct?
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`19· · · ·A· ·It's a different portion in two embodiments,
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`20· ·but, yes.
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`21· · · ·Q· ·Do you understand how the embodiment shown in
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`22· ·figure 6 works?
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`23· · · ·A· ·Yes, I do.
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`24· · · ·Q· ·How does liquid -- Does liquid enter what's
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`25· ·shown as space 10 in figure 6?
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`·1· · · ·A· ·It does.
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`·2· · · ·Q· ·How does liquid enter space 10?
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`·3· · · ·A· ·It enters through holes 24.
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`·4· · · ·Q· ·Is there a force that causes liquid to enter
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`·5· ·space 10 through holes 24?
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`·6· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`·7· · · ·Q· ·And what's that force?
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`·8· · · ·A· ·A difference in pressure.
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`·9· · · ·Q· ·And that's a difference in pressure between
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`10· ·what?
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`11· · · ·A· ·Between the upstream side and the pressure in
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`12· ·the cavity.
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`13· · · ·Q· ·Is that pressure difference caused by users
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`14· ·sucking on the electronic cigarette?
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`15· · · ·A· ·Yes.
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`16· · · ·Q· ·Prior to a user sucking on the electronic
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`17· ·cigarette, where is the liquid in atomizer figure 6?
`
`18· · · ·A· ·It is distributed in the porous component.
`
`19· · · ·Q· ·And how does that liquid that's distributed in
`
`20· ·the porous component go from being distributed in the
`
`21· ·porous component to being ejected into the space shown
`
`22· ·as item 10 once a user sucks on the electronic
`
`23· ·cigarette?
`
`24· · · ·A· ·The '043 patent says that the air enters the
`
`25· ·normal pressure cavity 5 through the air inlet 4, passes
`
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`
`·1· ·through the air passage 18 of the sensor and then
`
`·2· ·through the hole in the vapor liquid separator 7 and
`
`·3· ·flows into the atomization cavity 10 in the atomizer 9.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· ·And what are you reading there?
`
`·5· · · ·A· ·I am reading from page 10 five lines from the
`
`·6· ·bottom of Exhibit 1003.
`
`·7· · · ·Q· ·Okay.· So you just read that the air flows
`
`·8· ·through the through hole in the vapor liquid separator
`
`·9· ·and flows into the atomization cavity 10 in the
`
`10· ·atomizer, is that correct?
`
`11· · · ·A· ·Yes, that's what I just read.
`
`12· · · ·Q· ·And how does air go from the vapor liquid
`
`13· ·separator 7 and then flow into the atomization cavity
`
`14· ·10?
`
`15· · · ·A· ·The '043 patent goes on to explain that the
`
`16· ·high-speed stream passing through the ejection hole
`
`17· ·drives the nicotine solution in the porous body to eject
`
`18· ·into the atomization cavity 10 in the form of a droplet,
`
`19· ·and that informs the reader that the air is flowing
`
`20· ·through the ejection holes.
`
`21· · · ·Q· ·Does the air flow through the porous body before
`
`22· ·it flows through the ejection holes?
`
`23· · · ·A· ·It does.
`
`24· · · ·Q· ·And does that air pick up liquid in the porous
`
`25· ·body and pull it into the ejection holes?
`
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`·1· · · ·A· ·No, it's the ejection holes -- the air in the
`
`·2· ·ejection holes that entrain the nicotine into the air
`
`·3· ·stream.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· ·Where does the air come from that's in the
`
`·5· ·ejection holes?
`
`·6· · · ·A· ·It comes through the porous component from the
`
`·7· ·upstream side.
`
`·8· · · ·Q· ·And then when does liquid become entrained in
`
`·9· ·the air in the ejection holes?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·In the ejection holes 24 as the high-speed
`
`11· ·stream passes through it.
`
`12· · · ·Q· ·How does the liquid get in the ejection holes?
`
`13· · · ·A· ·It is drawn in by the reduced pressure of the
`
`14· ·high-speed stream.
`
`15· · · ·Q· ·So does that mean there is a lower pressure in
`
`16· ·the ejection holes that draws air out of the porous
`
`17· ·body?
`
`18· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`19· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·Pardon me.· Let me withdraw that.
`
`20· · · · · · Does that mean that there is a lower pressure
`
`21· ·in the ejection holes that draws liquid out of the
`
`22· ·porous body?
`
`23· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`24· · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`25· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·So let's talk about the --
`
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`·1· ·Withdraw the question.
`
`·2· · · · · · Earlier you had testified that the porous body
`
`·3· ·is -- Withdraw that question, too.
`
`·4· · · · · · Is the porous body saturated with liquid?
`
`·5· · · ·A· ·Under what conditions?· I can't say by your
`
`·6· ·question.
`
`·7· · · ·Q· ·Under the normal operating conditions of the
`
`·8· ·device?
`
`·9· · · ·A· ·Saturated to some extent, yes.
`
`10· · · ·Q· ·What do you mean to some extent?
`
`11· · · ·A· ·It can't be completely saturated 100 percent.
`
`12· · · ·Q· ·Why not?
`
`13· · · ·A· ·Because when one fills it from the container of
`
`14· ·fluid, there will be a flow of the liquid by capillary
`
`15· ·action from the storage container into the porous
`
`16· ·component.
`
`17· · · · · · If the porous component is empty at this point,
`
`18· ·then the concentration of the fluid will tend to over
`
`19· ·time equalize.
`
`20· · · · · · And since one was full and the other was empty
`
`21· ·at the starting time, neither of them can be 100 percent
`
`22· ·full after time.
`
`23· · · ·Q· ·When you say 100 percent full, do you mean 100
`
`24· ·percent saturated?
`
`25· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
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`Page 17 of 106
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`·1· · · ·Q· ·If you allowed the device to come to
`
`·2· ·equilibrium, and by equilibrium I mean the amount of
`
`·3· ·liquid in the liquid supply and any porous component,
`
`·4· ·would liquid be found throughout the porous component?
`
`·5· · · ·A· ·That would be a reasonable conclusion, yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q· ·And would that mean that there is liquid in the
`
`·7· ·portion of the porous component that is between the
`
`·8· ·front tip of the electronic cigarette and the ejection
`
`·9· ·holes in the embodiment where the item 36 is between
`
`10· ·the -- is closer to the mouthpiece of the electronic
`
`11· ·cigarette?
`
`12· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`13· · · ·THE WITNESS:· There would be, if I understand your
`
`14· ·question, there would be a certain concentration of
`
`15· ·fluid in the part of the porous component labeled 36.
`
`16· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·And there would be a certain
`
`17· ·concentration of fluid in the part of the porous
`
`18· ·component opposite 36, correct, upstream from the
`
`19· ·ejection holes?
`
`20· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · ·Q· ·There would have to be for liquid to get to the
`
`22· ·ejection holes, correct?
`
`23· · · ·A· ·That is certainly a reasonable conclusion.
`
`24· · · ·Q· ·Does Hon '043 describe absorption of liquid
`
`25· ·droplets back into the porous component after they are
`
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`Page 18 of 106
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`·1· ·ejected into the space shown as item 10?
`
`·2· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`·3· · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.· On page 11 of Exhibit 1003 the
`
`·4· ·'043 patent says after atomization, the large diameter
`
`·5· ·droplets stick to the wall under the action of eddy flow
`
`·6· ·and are reabsorbed by the porous body 27 via the
`
`·7· ·overflow hole 29.
`
`·8· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·When you say stick to the wall,
`
`·9· ·the wall of what?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·The wall of the atomization cavity.
`
`11· · · ·Q· ·And how does the porous body reabsorb those
`
`12· ·droplets?
`
`13· · · ·A· ·By capillary action.
`
`14· · · ·Q· ·What does that mean, reabsorb?
`
`15· · · ·A· ·In this instance it refers to having been drawn
`
`16· ·out of the porous component and then be taken up by the
`
`17· ·porous component again.
`
`18· · · ·Q· ·How does capillary action cause liquid to be
`
`19· ·reabsorbed by the porous body?
`
`20· · · ·A· ·Surface tension of the droplet.
`
`21· · · ·Q· ·Does that mean the droplet touches the porous
`
`22· ·body?
`
`23· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · ·Q· ·And how does the droplet touch the porous body
`
`25· ·to be reabsorbed?
`
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`Page 19 of 106
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`·1· · · ·A· ·Via the overflow hole 29.
`
`·2· · · ·Q· ·Does the droplet enter holes in the porous body?
`
`·3· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`·4· · · ·THE WITNESS:· Pores of the porous body, yes.
`
`·5· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·And then once the droplet enters
`
`·6· ·the pores of the porous body, how is it reabsorbed?
`
`·7· · · ·A· ·It's already reabsorbed when it's there.
`
`·8· · · ·Q· ·Once the droplet is in the pores of the porous
`
`·9· ·body, it has been reabsorbed, is that correct?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q· ·Can a droplet enter the porous body and not be
`
`12· ·reabsorbed by the porous body?
`
`13· · · ·A· ·That's not suggested in '043, and it would not
`
`14· ·be expected given the teachings of '043.
`
`15· · · ·Q· ·If you've got a particle stream of large
`
`16· ·droplets of liquid and small droplets of liquid, would
`
`17· ·there be any difference in the momentum of the large
`
`18· ·droplets as compared to the small droplets?
`
`19· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, scope; objection, form.
`
`20· · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think to answer that I need to know
`
`21· ·a little bit more about what you referred to as a
`
`22· ·stream.
`
`23· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·So let's take the stream coming
`
`24· ·out of the ejection holes in the atomizer shown in
`
`25· ·figure 6.
`
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`Page 20 of 106
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`
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`·1· · · · · · Can you answer that question now?
`
`·2· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Same objections, scope and form.
`
`·3· · · ·THE WITNESS:· The larger droplets would be
`
`·4· ·carrying -- would be expected to be carrying more
`
`·5· ·momentum than the smaller droplets as they issue from
`
`·6· ·the ejection holes.
`
`·7· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·What is momentum?
`
`·8· · · ·A· ·Momentum is the mass times the velocity of a
`
`·9· ·particle.
`
`10· · · ·Q· ·What does the term friction fit mean?
`
`11· · · ·A· ·Friction fit means that there is an interference
`
`12· ·between one body and another wherein one may be fitted
`
`13· ·into another or one may be in forcible contact with
`
`14· ·another.
`
`15· · · ·Q· ·What do you mean forcible contact?
`
`16· · · ·A· ·What I mean is that two bodies share a surface
`
`17· ·that has a normal stress between them.
`
`18· · · ·Q· ·What's a normal stress?
`
`19· · · ·A· ·A stress perpendicular to the surface.
`
`20· · · ·Q· ·If you had a flat body and then another body
`
`21· ·sitting on top of that flat body held on there by
`
`22· ·gravity, would you call that a friction fit?
`
`23· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, scope; objection, form.
`
`24· · · ·THE WITNESS:· I wouldn't refer to that as a friction
`
`25· ·fit because there isn't any fit defined.
`
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`Page 21 of 106
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`
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`·1· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·What do you mean by there isn't
`
`·2· ·any fit defined?
`
`·3· · · ·A· ·A fit in engineering parlance means that there
`
`·4· ·is a relationship between the inner and outer dimensions
`
`·5· ·of the two parts respectively.
`
`·6· · · ·Q· ·So two parts touching each other wouldn't
`
`·7· ·necessarily mean there is a friction fit, is that
`
`·8· ·correct?
`
`·9· · · ·A· ·That's right.
`
`10· · · ·Q· ·Something more is required, correct?
`
`11· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · ·Q· ·So now I'm going to ask you a couple questions
`
`13· ·about this item, I think you referred to it as the bulge
`
`14· ·36 in figure 6.· Do you see that?
`
`15· · · ·A· ·I don't recall referring to it as a bulge, but I
`
`16· ·remember referring to that shape as part 36.
`
`17· · · ·Q· ·Is 36 a bulge?
`
`18· · · ·A· ·Yes, on page 9 '043 describes item 36 as a
`
`19· ·bulge.
`
`20· · · ·Q· ·Does the bulge contact the liquid supply in Hon
`
`21· ·'043?
`
`22· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · ·Q· ·And when the bulge contacts the liquid supply,
`
`24· ·does the liquid supply deform?
`
`25· · · ·A· ·Yes, it does.
`
`Ex. 2030
`R.J. Reynolds Vapor Company v. Fontem Holdings 1 B.V. IPR2016-01268
`Page 22 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q· ·Does Hon '043 show the liquid supply deforming
`
`·2· ·upon that contact?
`
`·3· · · ·A· ·Yes, it does.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· ·Where does it show that?
`
`·5· · · ·A· ·Comparing figure 1 at least to figure 11, we
`
`·6· ·find that the solution storage porous body 28 has a flat
`
`·7· ·surface where before it comes in contact with the bulge.
`
`·8· · · · · · And then in figure 1 we see that flat surface
`
`·9· ·deformed to take up the shape of the bulge.
`
`10· · · ·Q· ·What do you mean take up the shape of the bulge?
`
`11· · · ·A· ·The bulge can be considered a hemisphere, and
`
`12· ·there is a hemispherical depression shown in figure 1 of
`
`13· ·the material in the liquid supply 28.
`
`14· · · ·Q· ·When you say a hemispherical depression, you
`
`15· ·mean -- do you mean the liquid supply -- I'll withdraw
`
`16· ·the question.
`
`17· · · · · · What do you mean by a hemispherical depression?
`
`18· · · ·A· ·A depression that is in the concave shape of a
`
`19· ·hemisphere, in this case the hemisphere of the bulge
`
`20· ·that is pressed into the otherwise flat surface.
`
`21· · · ·Q· ·And that's shown in figure 1, correct?
`
`22· · · ·A· ·Yes, comparing it to figure 11.
`
`23· · · ·Q· ·Is the same thing shown in figure 2?
`
`24· · · ·A· ·Very likely.
`
`25· · · ·Q· ·What about figure 3?
`
`Ex. 2030
`R.J. Reynolds Vapor Company v. Fontem Holdings 1 B.V. IPR2016-01268
`Page 23 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A· ·Yes, the same thing is shown.
`
`·2· · · ·Q· ·If we go back to figure 6, on the end of figure
`
`·3· ·6 towards the bottom of the page where item 24, labeled
`
`·4· ·24 is, do you see that?
`
`·5· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q· ·Do you see the two we will call them squiggly
`
`·7· ·lines or wavy lines coming out of that end of the
`
`·8· ·atomizer.
`
`·9· · · · · · Do you see those?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·Yes, I do.
`
`11· · · ·Q· ·What are those?
`
`12· · · ·A· ·Those are lead wires.
`
`13· · · ·Q· ·What are lead wires?
`
`14· · · ·A· ·Wires leading from a source or a sink of
`
`15· ·electric current to an item that would receive the flow
`
`16· ·of the current.
`
`17· · · ·Q· ·And what's the item shown in figure 6 that
`
`18· ·receives the flow of the current?
`
`19· · · ·A· ·It is a heater wire 26.
`
`20· · · ·Q· ·What are items 23?
`
`21· · · ·A· ·23 are referred to as a first piezoelectric
`
`22· ·element.
`
`23· · · ·Q· ·What do items 23 do in figure 6?
`
`24· · · ·A· ·They supply energy to the atomization cavity.
`
`25· · · ·Q· ·And why are the piezoelectric items 23 included
`
`Ex. 2030
`R.J. Reynolds Vapor Company v. Fontem Holdings 1 B.V. IPR2016-01268
`Page 24 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· ·to supply energy to the atomization cavity?
`
`·2· · · ·A· ·To assist in the atomization of the fluid, the
`
`·3· ·droplets, excuse me.
`
`·4· · · ·Q· ·And how do those piezoelectric elements 23
`
`·5· ·assist in atomization of the fluid, of the droplets?
`
`·6· · · ·A· ·They provide energy such that the droplets can
`
`·7· ·be made smaller.
`
`·8· · · ·Q· ·And how does the provision of energy make the
`
`·9· ·droplets smaller?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·In order to make a droplet smaller than some
`
`11· ·original size, one needs to supply energy to it because
`
`12· ·of the increased surface tension.
`
`13· · · · · · And so the vibration supplied by the ultrasonic
`
`14· ·element provides that vibration, and that energy, that
`
`15· ·interacts with the droplet.
`
`16· · · ·Q· ·And how does that energy get from the item 23 to
`
`17· ·the droplet?
`
`18· · · ·A· ·It is conducted through the porous component and
`
`19· ·the cavity wall.
`
`20· · · ·Q· ·So that energy travels through the porous
`
`21· ·component, the cavity wall, and then how does it get
`
`22· ·from the cavity wall to the droplet?
`
`23· · · ·A· ·Through the air space in the cavity 10.
`
`24· · · ·Q· ·The energy travels across the air space, is that
`
`25· ·your testimony?
`
`Ex. 2030
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`Page 25 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · ·Q· ·Does the energy -- is there any other mechanism
`
`·3· ·for the energy to cause smaller droplets as shown in
`
`·4· ·figure 6 besides the air -- or the energy traveling
`
`·5· ·through the air space between the cavity wall and the
`
`·6· ·droplets?
`
`·7· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`·8· · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure there is.
`
`·9· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·When you say you're not sure
`
`10· ·there is, there is or there isn't?
`
`11· · · · · · As you sit here today, you're not aware of any
`
`12· ·other mechanism, is that correct?
`
`13· · · ·A· ·That's correct.
`
`14· · · ·Q· ·And that's your understanding of how the
`
`15· ·atomizer in figure 6 works, is that correct?
`
`16· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`17· · · ·THE WITNESS:· That is part of how the atomizer
`
`18· ·works.
`
`19· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·And that's the part of the
`
`20· ·atomizer related to items 23, correct?
`
`21· · · ·A· ·And the functions that 23 performs, yes.
`
`22· · · ·Q· ·Do items 23 perform any other functions than
`
`23· ·those we just discussed?
`
`24· · · ·A· ·No.
`
`25· · · ·Q· ·And was that your understanding when you formed
`
`Ex. 2030
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`Page 26 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· ·your opinions in this case?
`
`·2· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · ·Q· ·So let's go back to those what I referred to as
`
`·4· ·squiggly lines you called the leads entering from the
`
`·5· ·bottom on figure 6.· Do you see those?
`
`·6· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · ·Q· ·Earlier I believe you testified that those leads
`
`·8· ·provided electricity to the heating wire, is that
`
`·9· ·correct?
`
`10· · · ·A· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q· ·Do they provide any other function?
`
`12· · · ·A· ·There is no other teaching in '043 that they do,
`
`13· ·no.
`
`14· · · ·Q· ·So would one skilled in the art understand that
`
`15· ·those leads could provide any other function in the
`
`16· ·atomizer shown in figure 6?
`
`17· · · ·MR. MALLIN:· Objection, form.
`
`18· · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would not consider that so.
`
`19· · · ·MR. HAMILTON:· Q· ·So just to be clear, it is your
`
`20· ·understanding that the sole function of the wire leads
`
`21· ·shown in figure 6 are to provide electricity to the
`
`22· ·heating wire, is that correct?
`
`23· · · ·A· ·That's correct.
`
`24· · · ·Q· ·And those wire leads provide no other function
`
`25· ·in the atomizer shown in figure 6, is that correct?
`
`Ex. 2030
`R.J. Reynolds Vapor Company v. Fontem Holdings 1 B.V. IPR2016-01268
`Page 27 of 106
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A· ·That's my understanding, yes.
`
`·
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