Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4 APPLE INC., MICROSOFT CORP,)
`
` 5 MICROSOFT MOBILE OY, AND )IPR 2016-01228 and
`
` 6 MICROSOFT MOBILE INC., )IPR 2016-01229
`
` 7 Petitioners, )
`
` 8 v. )
`
` 9 EVOLVED WIRELESS, LLC, )Patent 7,881,236
`
` 10 Patent Owner. )
`
` 11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
`
` 12 DEPOSITION OF
`
` 13 JONATHAN WELLS, PH.D., M.B.A.
`
` 14
`
` 15 April 20, 2017
` 9:33 a.m.
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18 Fish & Richardson
`
` 19 1425 K Street, Northwest
`
` 20 Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23 Reported by: Lori J. Goodin, RPR, CLR, CRR,
`
` 24 Realtime Systems Administrator
`
` 25
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 1
`
`
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4 APPLE INC., MICROSOFT CORP,)
`
` 5 MICROSOFT MOBILE OY, AND )IPR 2016-01228 and
`
` 6 MICROSOFT MOBILE INC., )IPR 2016-01229
`
` 7 Petitioners, )
`
` 8 v. )
`
` 9 EVOLVED WIRELESS, LLC, )Patent 7,881,236
`
` 10 Patent Owner. )
`
` 11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
`
` 12 DEPOSITION OF
`
` 13 JONATHAN WELLS, PH.D., M.B.A.
`
` 14
`
` 15 April 20, 2017
` 9:33 a.m.
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18 Fish & Richardson
`
` 19 1425 K Street, Northwest
`
` 20 Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23 Reported by: Lori J. Goodin, RPR, CLR, CRR,
`
` 24 Realtime Systems Administrator
`
` 25
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 1
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
`
` 2
`
` 3 For the Patent Owner Evolved Wireless, LLC:
`
` 4 MILES A. FINN, PH.D., ESQUIRE
`
` 5 ROBINS KAPLAN LLP
`
` 6 399 Park Avenue, Suite 3600
`
` 7 New York, New York 10022
`
` 8 212-980-7400
`
` 9 mfinn@robinskaplan.com
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12 For the Petitioners Apple and Microsoft:
`
` 13 INDRANIL MUKERJI, ESQUIRE
`
` 14 DAVID HOLT, ESQUIRE
`
` 15 FISH & RICHARDSON
`
` 16 11th Floor
`
` 17 1425 K Street, Northwest
`
` 18 Washington, D.C. 20005
`
` 19 202-626-7762
`
` 20 mukerji@fr.com
`
` 21 holt2@fr.com
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 2
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`Exhibit 2012-002
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (CONTINUED)
`
` 2
`
` 3 Co-counsel for the Petitioners Apple and
`
` 4 Microsoft:
`
` 5 BAILE XIE, ESQUIRE
`
` 6 (VIA TELEPHONE)
`
` 7 FISH & RICHARDSON
`
` 8 1717 Main Street, Suite 5000
`
` 9 Dallas, Texas 75201
`
` 10 214-760-6139
`
` 11 xie@fr.com
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
` 18
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
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`Page 3
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`Exhibit 2012-003
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
`
` 2
`
` 3 WITNESS: JONATHAN WELLS, PH.D., M.B.A.
`
` 4 EXAMINATION PAGE
`
` 5 By Mr. Finn 5
`
` 6 By Mr. Mukerji 101
`
` 7
`
` 8 INDEX OF EXHIBITS
`
` 9 Wells
`
` 10 Exhibits Page
`
` 11 Exhibit 1 U.S. Patent 7,881,236 6
`
` 12 Exhibit 2 Declaration of
`
` 13 Dr. Jonathan Wells 25
`
` 14 Exhibit 3 3GPP Specification
`
` 15 36.321, Version 8.1 30
`
` 16 Exhibit 4 Delaney reference 41
`
` 17 Exhibit 5 Ko reference 45
`
` 18 Exhibit 6 Kitazoe reference 52
`
` 19 Exhibit 7 Patent Owner's Preliminary
`
` 20 Response in IPR2016-01228 58
`
` 21 Exhibit 8 Niu reference 77
`
` 22 Exhibit 9 Declaration by Dr. Wells 77
`
` 23 (Original Exhibits included with the
`
` 24 original transcript.)
`
` 25 * * *
`
`Depo International, Inc.
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`Page 4
`
`Exhibit 2012-004
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN WELLS, PH.D., M.B.A.
`
` 2 April 20, 2016
`
` 3
`
` 4 JONATHAN WELLS, PH.D., M.B.A.,
`
` 5 having been previously sworn, testified as
`
` 6 follows:
`
` 7 EXAMINATION
`
` 8 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 9 Q. And we are beginning the second
`
` 10 deposition of the day, Dr. Wells, and let me make
`
` 11 sure that you and counsel and I are all on the
`
` 12 same wavelength.
`
` 13 We are talking about IPR 2016-01228
`
` 14 and 01229. Is that what you understand?
`
` 15 A. This is relevant to the '236 patent?
`
` 16 Q. Correct.
`
` 17 A. Then, yes. I am not aware of the
`
` 18 IPR numbers, but yes, I understand the matter.
`
` 19 Q. Understood.
`
` 20 MR. MUKERJI: And again, because it
`
` 21 is a separate transcript, I will just note
`
` 22 our appearances for the record.
`
` 23 Indranil Mukerji, David Holt, and
`
` 24 Baile Xie from Fish & Richardson, for Apple
`
` 25 and Microsoft, and of course the witness here
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`Depo International, Inc.
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`Page 5
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`Exhibit 2012-005
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 today.
`
` 2 MR. FINN: Again, Miles Finn from
`
` 3 Miles Kaplan LLP representing Evolved
`
` 4 Wireless.
`
` 5 THE WITNESS: Do I need to re-swear
`
` 6 or no?
`
` 7 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 8 Q. Dr. Wells, you were sworn in earlier
`
` 9 today, and do you understand that the swearing in
`
` 10 pertains to the present deposition?
`
` 11 A. I understand.
`
` 12 Q. Okay. And we also went through some
`
` 13 kind of ground rules at the beginning. Are you
`
` 14 okay with us not repeating those ground rules?
`
` 15 A. That is fine.
`
` 16 Q. Okay. Thank you. So, if I need to
`
` 17 talk about those ground rules, I'm going to have
`
` 18 to refer to the previous deposition. That's
`
` 19 okay?
`
` 20 A. That is fine.
`
` 21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`
` 22 A. Okay.
`
` 23 Q. So, let's begin with handing you
`
` 24 what will be Wells Exhibit 1 in this deposition.
`
` 25 (Wells Exhibit Number 1
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`Page 6
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`Exhibit 2012-006
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`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 marked for identification.)
`
` 2 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 3 Q. And, sir, I'm sure you recognize
`
` 4 Wells Exhibit 1.
`
` 5 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. And that is the '236 patent
`
` 7 that we referred to earlier; is that right?
`
` 8 A. Yes, it is.
`
` 9 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to start off
`
` 10 by talking about, or asking you to talk, sir,
`
` 11 about what problem the inventors claimed to have
`
` 12 solved in this patent. Okay.
`
` 13 And before I ask any specific
`
` 14 questions about that, do you have a concept for
`
` 15 the problem the inventors claimed that they
`
` 16 solved in this patent?
`
` 17 A. Yes, I do, generally.
`
` 18 Q. Okay. So, would you state what you
`
` 19 think generally?
`
` 20 A. Well, the -- I would refer you to
`
` 21 the specification of the '236 patent which lays
`
` 22 out what the problems are.
`
` 23 But, I could summarize it generally
`
` 24 by saying that the inventors suggest that at the
`
` 25 time the LTE specification could erroneously send
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`Page 7
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`Exhibit 2012-007
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`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 what is known as a message 3 signal, depending on
`
` 2 one of several uplink grants.
`
` 3 Meaning that there is -- meaning
`
` 4 that this message 3 could be erroneously sent.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. Now, let's unpack that. You
`
` 6 talked about one of several, several uplink
`
` 7 grants.
`
` 8 What -- were you referring to types
`
` 9 of uplink grants or a sequence of uplink grants?
`
` 10 A. I was using the term very generally.
`
` 11 The patent specification talks about two
`
` 12 different types of uplink grants. One of them is
`
` 13 known as a random access response, and the other
`
` 14 one is a contention resolution message. Both of
`
` 15 those contain what is called uplink grants.
`
` 16 Q. And what does an uplink grant,
`
` 17 grant?
`
` 18 A. I'm sorry, can you say the question
`
` 19 again, please?
`
` 20 Q. Sure. What does an uplink grant,
`
` 21 grant?
`
` 22 A. The uplink grant is a, a message
`
` 23 from a base station that gives resources to a
`
` 24 handset, or a user device, so that it can
`
` 25 transmit on the uplink. It can transmit to the
`
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`Page 8
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`Exhibit 2012-008
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`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 base station.
`
` 2 Q. And what does resources mean?
`
` 3 A. Speaking generally, resources in the
`
` 4 context of an uplink grant would mean the time or
`
` 5 the frequency resources, the period of time or
`
` 6 the frequency spectrum that would be allocated
`
` 7 for that handset or that user device to talk to
`
` 8 the base station.
`
` 9 Q. And, not just speaking generally,
`
` 10 but speaking about the LTE standard as it existed
`
` 11 at the time of the '236 invention, is that the
`
` 12 same meaning for what an uplink grant, grants?
`
` 13 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 14 scope.
`
` 15 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 16 Q. I'm sorry, that was a confusing
`
` 17 question. Let's strike that. Let's say this
`
` 18 again.
`
` 19 The answer that you just gave about
`
` 20 what an uplink grant, grants; is that true of the
`
` 21 LTE standard, as the standard existed at the time
`
` 22 of this patent invention?
`
` 23 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 24 scope.
`
` 25 THE WITNESS: I didn't study the
`
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`Page 9
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`Exhibit 2012-009
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 full LTE specifications as part of this. I
`
` 2 only looked at the parts relevant to this
`
` 3 patent.
`
` 4 But, generally speaking, yes, that
`
` 5 is what the LTE uplink grants allocate. They
`
` 6 allocate the time and frequency resources
`
` 7 that a user device can transmit with.
`
` 8 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 9 Q. Okay. And I just want to
`
` 10 recapitulate to make sure that I've got the right
`
` 11 vocabulary to use as we are talking back and
`
` 12 forth.
`
` 13 You said the one type of uplink
`
` 14 grant is a random access response; is that true?
`
` 15 A. I didn't quite say that. I said
`
` 16 that the random access response message, as
`
` 17 explained in the '236 patent, contains an uplink
`
` 18 grant.
`
` 19 Q. Okay. And, the contention
`
` 20 resolution message also contains an uplink grant;
`
` 21 is that right?
`
` 22 A. Correct.
`
` 23 Q. Okay. And, the contention
`
` 24 resolution message and the random access response
`
` 25 are different things; is that true?
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`Page 10
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`Exhibit 2012-010
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`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 A. They are.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. And when I say they are, they
`
` 3 are different things within the context of the
`
` 4 LTE standard at the time of this patent's
`
` 5 invention; is that right?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to direct
`
` 8 you to Exhibit 1, the '236 patent, Column 12.
`
` 9 Are you there?
`
` 10 A. Yes, I am.
`
` 11 Q. And I would like to direct you
`
` 12 specifically to, in Column 12, the sentence
`
` 13 beginning -- about Row 16, do you see the
`
` 14 sentence that begins, "As described"?
`
` 15 A. I do, yes.
`
` 16 Q. Okay. So, I'm just going to read
`
` 17 that.
`
` 18 "As described above in the current
`
` 19 the LTE system standard for the" --
`
` 20 A. I apologize. I am sorry. I am not
`
` 21 with you.
`
` 22 Q. Okay. So, and I misread, because I
`
` 23 think this might be a typo in the patent. I'm
`
` 24 looking at Column 16 --
`
` 25 A. Column 16.
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`Page 11
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`Exhibit 2012-011
`
`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 Q. Sorry, Row 16. Column 12.
`
` 2 A. I'm with you.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. And you see the sentence,
`
` 4 ending in "message 3"?
`
` 5 A. Yes, I see that.
`
` 6 Q. And the sentence after that reads as
`
` 7 follows, "As described above, in the current the
`
` 8 LTE system standard for the HARQ process, it is
`
` 9 defined 'the transmission of the data stored in
`
` 10 the message 3 buffer is triggered by the
`
` 11 perception of any UL grant signal.'"
`
` 12 Did I read that right?
`
` 13 A. Yes, you did.
`
` 14 Q. Okay. And --
`
` 15 MR. MUKERJI: Well, give me one
`
` 16 second.
`
` 17 MR. FINN: Sure.
`
` 18 MR. MUKERJI: I think you may have
`
` 19 skipped inadvertently part of the sentence.
`
` 20 MR. FINN: So, I apologize if I did.
`
` 21 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 22 Q. I'm just going to read that again.
`
` 23 "As described above, in the current the LTE
`
` 24 system standard for the HARQ process, it is
`
` 25 defined that 'the transmission of the data stored
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`Page 12
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`Exhibit 2012-012
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`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 in the message 3 buffer is triggered by the
`
` 2 perception of any UL grant signal.'" Okay?
`
` 3 MR. FINN: You think I've got it
`
` 4 now? Okay, thanks.
`
` 5 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 6 Q. Now, the phrase, any UL grant, that
`
` 7 I just read, is that referring to the fact that
`
` 8 there are two types of UL grant as we've
`
` 9 discussed?
`
` 10 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 11 scope.
`
` 12 THE WITNESS: Well, this, that
`
` 13 sentence is, I believe, with reference to
`
` 14 Figure 7. So, it is talking about the two
`
` 15 types of uplink grant we have previously
`
` 16 discussed.
`
` 17 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 18 Q. Do you have any reason to disagree
`
` 19 with the statement, that this statement's
`
` 20 characterization of the current, the LTE system?
`
` 21 MR. MUKERJI: Objection, form and
`
` 22 scope.
`
` 23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't
`
` 24 understand the question.
`
` 25 BY MR. FINN:
`
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`Page 13
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`Exhibit 2012-013
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 Q. Okay. So, this sentence has got a
`
` 2 hypothesis or a beginning that purports to be
`
` 3 discussing the current LTE standard. Is that
`
` 4 right?
`
` 5 A. The current LTE system standard,
`
` 6 yes.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. And, that it, the current
`
` 8 standard refers to the transmission of a
`
` 9 message 3 buffer being triggered by any type of
`
` 10 UL grant; is that right?
`
` 11 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 12 scope.
`
` 13 THE WITNESS: That is what it says
`
` 14 in this sentence.
`
` 15 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 16 Q. Okay. And do you have any reason to
`
` 17 disagree with that?
`
` 18 MR. MUKERJI: Same objections.
`
` 19 THE WITNESS: I have no reason to
`
` 20 disagree with it, but I don't know whether it
`
` 21 is true or not.
`
` 22 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 23 Q. Fair enough. Okay. Now let's look
`
` 24 down a little bit further in this paragraph,
`
` 25 about Line 22.
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`Page 14
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`Exhibit 2012-014
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 And I'm going to read that, or try
`
` 2 to do a better job reading this time.
`
` 3 "Due to the erroneous contention
`
` 4 resolution procedure, the above described BSR may
`
` 5 not be normally transmitted and the UE may come
`
` 6 to deadlock."
`
` 7 Do you see that?
`
` 8 A. I do.
`
` 9 Q. Okay. Now, is this coming to
`
` 10 deadlock one of the problems that the inventors
`
` 11 purported to solve?
`
` 12 A. This is how they have described one
`
` 13 of the consequences of this problem, yes.
`
` 14 Q. Okay. And let's just put some
`
` 15 language, or tie some language together in that
`
` 16 sentence.
`
` 17
`
` 18 When this sentence refers to BSR, do
`
` 19 you understand that to mean buffer status report?
`
` 20 A. Correct.
`
` 21 Q. And do you understand buffer status
`
` 22 report to be an example of a message 3?
`
` 23 A. I wouldn't --
`
` 24 MR. MUKERJI: Outside the scope.
`
` 25 You may answer.
`
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`Page 15
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`Exhibit 2012-015
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`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't phrase it
`
` 2 quite like that. I think a buffer status
`
` 3 report is part of the message 3.
`
` 4 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 5 Q. Okay. And jumping ahead, the patent
`
` 6 claims also refer to new data. Do you remember
`
` 7 that?
`
` 8 A. I do.
`
` 9 Q. Okay. And, would a buffer status
`
` 10 report be new data?
`
` 11 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 12 scope.
`
` 13 THE WITNESS: It could be within new
`
` 14 data.
`
` 15 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 16 Q. And when you say could be, you are
`
` 17 referring to within the current LTE standard as
`
` 18 it existed at the time of this patent's
`
` 19 invention?
`
` 20 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 21 scope.
`
` 22 THE WITNESS: Again, I didn't study
`
` 23 the full LTE specifications as part of this.
`
` 24 I only studied the sections relative to this
`
` 25 patent.
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`Page 16
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`Exhibit 2012-016
`
`
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`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 But, new data is a very broad term.
`
` 2 It could encompass many things, so it could
`
` 3 encompass a buffer status report.
`
` 4 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 5 Q. Okay. Now, let's look, sir, I'm
`
` 6 going to direct your attention to Column 13.
`
` 7 And, are you there?
`
` 8 A. Yes, I am.
`
` 9 Q. Okay. And this is going to be the,
`
` 10 in the column the second full paragraph,
`
` 11 approximately the Line 14. Do you see that?
`
` 12 A. I do, yes.
`
` 13 Q. Begins with, "In addition."
`
` 14 A. Yes.
`
` 15 Q. Okay. Now, this talks about -- I
`
` 16 won't read this again, but it talks about
`
` 17 message 3 may be lost. Do you see that?
`
` 18 A. I see that, yes.
`
` 19 Q. Okay. And, this paragraph describes
`
` 20 that "Message 3 may be lost if the CR timer is
`
` 21 erroneously started."
`
` 22 Do you see that?
`
` 23 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. Now, do you have any reason
`
` 25 to -- strike that.
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 17
`
`Exhibit 2012-017
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 Is this an example of a problem that
`
` 2 the inventors purported to solve with their
`
` 3 invention?
`
` 4 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 5 scope.
`
` 6 THE WITNESS: This is what the
`
` 7 inventors described as the problem they were
`
` 8 trying to solve, or one of the problems they
`
` 9 were trying to solve.
`
` 10 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 11 Q. Okay. Now, we've talked about the
`
` 12 deadlock problem when we discuss Column 12, and
`
` 13 we talked about the message 3 data may be lost
`
` 14 problem in Column 13, right?
`
` 15 A. We mentioned them, and they are the
`
` 16 terms that the inventors use. Perhaps deadlock
`
` 17 is a bit of a, an exaggerated statement.
`
` 18 But they are the problems that the
`
` 19 inventors, how the inventors explained the
`
` 20 problems.
`
` 21 Q. Okay. And, why, sir, do you say
`
` 22 that deadlock is an exaggeration?
`
` 23 A. Because the inventors are
`
` 24 essentially referring to the same thing.
`
` 25 In one instance they call it
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 18
`
`Exhibit 2012-018
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 deadlock. In another one they call it a message
`
` 2 being lost.
`
` 3 The terms that they've used suggest
`
` 4 different consequences.
`
` 5 Q. Referring to the statement that we
`
` 6 discussed in Column 13, do you agree that that
`
` 7 was a problem with the LTE standard as it existed
`
` 8 at the time of this patent's invention?
`
` 9 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 10 scope.
`
` 11 THE WITNESS: The inventors
`
` 12 certainly described it as a problem. I have
`
` 13 no reason to disbelieve them. I don't know
`
` 14 how well known it was as a problem at the
`
` 15 time.
`
` 16 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 17 Q. And so, my question I think was a
`
` 18 little bit different.
`
` 19 Do you recognize, now having read
`
` 20 this patent, that that was a problem at the time
`
` 21 of this patent's invention?
`
` 22 MR. MUKERJI: Same objections.
`
` 23 THE WITNESS: So, I didn't analyze
`
` 24 the LTE system looking for problems that
`
` 25 there are.
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 19
`
`Exhibit 2012-019
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 But, having read this patent and
`
` 2 seeing how the inventors describe it, I
`
` 3 understand the problem they explained, and I
`
` 4 see that there was possibly a gap in the LTE
`
` 5 standards.
`
` 6 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 7 Q. Now, let me just ask a question
`
` 8 about the very last part of your answer right
`
` 9 there.
`
` 10 You discussed a gap in the LTE
`
` 11 standards, the standards being plural.
`
` 12 Do you remember that?
`
` 13 A. (Nodding).
`
` 14 Q. You are nodding. I apologize. You
`
` 15 are nodding your head. You just need to say yes.
`
` 16 A. Yes.
`
` 17 Q. Now, by standards, I would like to
`
` 18 understand what you mean.
`
` 19 Do you mean that the standard
`
` 20 changed over time so that at one time there was
`
` 21 one standard, and a second time there was a
`
` 22 second standard?
`
` 23 A. No.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. So, what did you mean by
`
` 25 standards?
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 20
`
`Exhibit 2012-020
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 A. I mean that the LTE system is
`
` 2 described by multiple documents called
`
` 3 specifications, technical specifications.
`
` 4 There are many of these, many tens,
`
` 5 perhaps hundreds of these documents that together
`
` 6 form the definition of what an LTE is.
`
` 7 So, when I talk about the LTE
`
` 8 standards, I'm talking about generally about this
`
` 9 multitude of documents.
`
` 10 Q. These multitude of "technical
`
` 11 specifications" documents. Is that right?
`
` 12 A. Yes.
`
` 13 Q. Okay. Now, speaking generally
`
` 14 when -- strike that.
`
` 15 In the LTE system on a given date,
`
` 16 for example, January 1, 1998 --
`
` 17 or January 1, 2008, there was a set of technical
`
` 18 standards that existed at the time; is that
`
` 19 right?
`
` 20 A. Correct.
`
` 21 Q. And they would have defined the LTE
`
` 22 standard, system standard as of that date. Is
`
` 23 that right?
`
` 24 A. They were the published documents
`
` 25 that described the standard as of that date.
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 21
`
`Exhibit 2012-021
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 Q. Okay. So, what else, in addition to
`
` 2 the published documents, would define, or
`
` 3 describe the LTE standard as of that date?
`
` 4 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 5 scope.
`
` 6 THE WITNESS: So, these technical
`
` 7 specifications are living documents. They
`
` 8 evolve over time. There are hundreds,
`
` 9 perhaps thousands, of people that are
`
` 10 contributing to these specifications, and
`
` 11 they are regularly updated.
`
` 12 There are, the way in which they are
`
` 13 updated is there are groups that meet. They
`
` 14 discuss proposals. They come to conclusions.
`
` 15 They write what is called change
`
` 16 reports. These change reports are then
`
` 17 authorized by higher level groups. And then
`
` 18 they make their way into the specifications.
`
` 19 So, although at a particular point
`
` 20 in time there is a set of specifications,
`
` 21 there are almost certainly modifications to
`
` 22 those, upgrades to those, adding new features
`
` 23 to those, that are in the works, may have
`
` 24 already been approved.
`
` 25 They just haven't been officially
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 22
`
`Exhibit 2012-022
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 written into the documents at that point.
`
` 2 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So, let's think about the set
`
` 4 of technical specifications and appending
`
` 5 documents that exist on a certain date, for
`
` 6 example, January 1, 2008.
`
` 7 A. Okay.
`
` 8 Q. And then let's think about the
`
` 9 approved documents, published technical
`
` 10 specifications a year later, January 1, 2009. Is
`
` 11 it your position that those two sets of documents
`
` 12 are the same standard?
`
` 13 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 14 scope.
`
` 15 THE WITNESS: They are the same
`
` 16 standards. They are just issued at different
`
` 17 periods of time and have different revision
`
` 18 numbers.
`
` 19 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 20 Q. Okay. Now let's think about these
`
` 21 two standards, 1, January 1, 2008, and
`
` 22 January 1, 2009. And let's think of a user
`
` 23 equipment and base station built according to
`
` 24 those standards.
`
` 25 Do you have that in your mind?
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 23
`
`Exhibit 2012-023
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 A. I do.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. Are those two sets of user
`
` 3 equipment base stations, are they going to be the
`
` 4 same or different?
`
` 5 MR. MUKERJI: Objection to form and
`
` 6 outside the scope.
`
` 7 THE WITNESS: In this hypothetical
`
` 8 that you've given me, they could be the same.
`
` 9 They could be different. You can still
`
` 10 comply to older versions of the specification.
`
` 11 So, even if you have a piece of
`
` 12 equipment that is built on the newer date, it
`
` 13 can still comply with the older
`
` 14 specification.
`
` 15 Additionally, things that are in the
`
` 16 specifications can be mandatory or options.
`
` 17 And you don't have to comply with the
`
` 18 options, obviously.
`
` 19 And so, it depends entirely on the
`
` 20 equipment and the nature of what they are
`
` 21 trying to perform.
`
` 22 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 23 Q. Okay. So, I understood you just
`
` 24 answered that a later built piece of equipment
`
` 25 could still comply with the original -- the
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 24
`
`Exhibit 2012-024
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 earlier standards; is that right?
`
` 2 A. Yes. A later, yes.
`
` 3 Q. Would that also be true for earlier
`
` 4 standard, -- an earlier piece of equipment --
`
` 5 Let me strike that question and
`
` 6 begin it again.
`
` 7 Would a piece of user equipment
`
` 8 built to embody the earlier standard necessarily
`
` 9 comply with the later standard?
`
` 10 A. That depends what was written into
`
` 11 the later standard.
`
` 12 Q. Okay. So, now we are going to hand
`
` 13 you Exhibit 2 to this deposition.
`
` 14 (Wells Exhibit Number 2
`
` 15 marked for identification.)
`
` 16 BY MR. FINN:
`
` 17 Q. And sir, do you recognize Exhibit 2,
`
` 18 I think?
`
` 19 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 20 Q. And this is your declaration in
`
` 21 1228 IPR; is that right?
`
` 22 A. I am not aware of the IPR numbers.
`
` 23 It is my declaration for the '236 patent. If
`
` 24 that is that IPR, then yes.
`
` 25 Q. Fair enough, sir. That is good.
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 25
`
`Exhibit 2012-025
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., M.B.A. - 4/20/2017
`Apple Inc., et al. vs. Evolved Wireless, LLC
`
` 1 So, I would like you to turn, please, to Page 43,
`
` 2 and look at Paragraph 94.
`
` 3 And just as a meta matter, just to
`
` 4 give you an outline of what is coming up, we have
`
` 5 been going close to an hour now. I would like to
`
` 6 ask you a couple of questions about Paragraph 94,
`
` 7 and then if it is okay with you, we'll take a
`
` 8 break, and then we'll go to other paragraphs. Is
`
` 9 that okay?
`
` 10 A. Certainly.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. Now, Paragraph 94, you are
`
` 12 referring to a document, 3GPPTS36.321. Do you
`
` 13 see that?
`
` 14 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 15 Q. And, can we call that the 321
`
` 16 document?
`
` 17 A. Certainly.
`
` 18 Q. Okay. So, sir, what is the 321
`
` 19 document?
`
` 20 A. So, it is a technical specification
`
` 21 issued by the group 3GPP. I talk about it, for
`
` 22 example, in Paragraph 76. And it is a technical
`
` 23 specification about what is called the MAC, the
`
` 24 medium access control, in an LTE system.
`
` 25 Q. Okay. Now, the 321 document that
`
`Depo International, Inc.
`(763) 591-0535 or (800) 591-9722 | info@depointernational.com
`
`Page 26
`
`Exhibit 2012-026
`
`
`
`Jonathan Wells, Ph.D.,
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