throbber
UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`______________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`______________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`VOIP-PAL.COM INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`______________
`
`Cases IPR2016-01198 and IPR2016-01201
`Patents 9,179,005 B2 and 8,542,815, B2
`______________
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
`Held: July 20, 2017
`
`
`
`Before JOSIAH C. COCKS, JENNIFER MEYER CHAGNON, and JOHN
`A. HUDALLA, Administrative Patent Judges.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`APPEARANCES
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER, APPLE INC.:
` ADAM SEITZ, ESQUIRE
` ERISE IP, P.A.
` 6201 College Boulevard
` Suite 300
` Overland Park, Kansas 66211
` 913.777.5600
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER, APPLE INC.:
` PAUL HART, ESQUIRE
` ERISE IP, P.A.
` 5600 Greenwood Plaza Boulevard
` Suite 200
` Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER, VOIP-PAL.COM INC.:
` STEPHEN W. MELVIN, PH.D., ESQUIRE
` ZYTEK COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION
` 1275 West 6th Avenue
` Suite 300
` Vancouver, British Columbia V6H 1A6
` 604.628.9589
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER, VOIP-PAL.COM, INC.:
` KERRY S. TAYLOR, PH.D., ESQUIRE
` KNOBBE MARTENS
` 12790 El Camino Real
` San Diego, California 92130
` 858.707.4000
`
`
`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Thursday, July 20,
`
`2017, at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, 600 Dulany Street,
`Alexandria, Virginia in courtroom A, at 10:02 a.m.
`
`
`
`
`
`2
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` JUDGE COCKS: Good morning. Welcome to the board.
`We're here today for a consolidated oral argument in two
`cases -- in connection with two cases, IPR2016-01198 and
`IPR2016-01201 involving patents 9,179,005 and 8,542,815.
` Let's begin with introductions of counsel.
` Would counsel for the Petitioner please state your
`appearance.
` MR. SEITZ: Good morning, Your Honors. I'm Adam
`Seitz with Erise IP for Petitioner, Apple. With me is Paul
`Hart.
` JUDGE COCKS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Seitz.
` And would counsel for Patent Owner please state
`their appearance.
` MR. MELVIN: Steven Melvin with Patent Owner,
`VoIP-PAL. And with me is Kerry Taylor.
` JUDGE COCKS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Melvin.
` Now will be set forth in the trial hearing order.
`Each side has 60 minutes of argument time. Petitioner bears
`the burden of showing unpatentability and will proceed first.
`They may reserve rebuttal time. The Patent Owner will then
`argue their opposition and may also reserve rebuttal time.
`Petitioner will then use any time they reserve to respond to
`all aspects of the Patent Owner's case. And then the Patent
`
`
`
`3
`
`1
`
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`Owner will use their reserve time to respond to the
`Petitioner's case when it comes to the motion to exclude and
`to antedating certain references involved in this proceeding.
` With that being said, Mr. Seitz, you may begin.
` MR. SEITZ: Thank you, Your Honor. I have paper
`copies of the presentation submitted.
` JUDGE COCKS: Yes, you may approach.
` MR. SEITZ: Thank you.
` Your Honors, I would like to reserve 10 minutes,
`please.
` JUDGE COCKS: Okay. Thank you.
` You may proceed.
` MR. SEITZ: Thank you.
` My may it please the Court. Your Honors, we
`already mentioned we're here on two different petitions today
`relating to two different patents, the '005 and the '815.
`The issues in these patents are nearly identical.
` The challenged grounds are identical between the
`two relating to Chu in combination with Chu, and Chu in
`combination with Chen. Our base reference is Chu '684. The
`other reference, to avoid confusion, is Chu '366.
` Let's talk about the challenged patents and get an
`understanding for what the basic functionality is here.
`Looking at DX3, there's three fundamental aspects I'm going
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`4
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`to be focusing on today. Specifically in the challenged
`patents, this is from the abstract, they talk about a caller
`identifier, and a callee identifier, and then a receipt. They
`talk about a call classification criteria that's associated
`with the caller identifier that's used to classify the call
`as a public call or a private call. And then a routing
`message identifying an address that sends that call along.
` Moving to DX4 let's talk about how this works in
`practice. So the main concepts of the challenged patents.
`You have a VoIP phone system, a voice over Internet protocol
`phone system, that allows a user, a caller, to make a phone
`call to one of two different locations. Another user on the
`private network, an IP-to-IP call, or a phone call from the
`IP network to what is called the PSTN, public switched
`telephone network, that's your standard landline.
` The system of the challenged patents will then look
`at the caller information and look at the attributes of the
`dialed phone number, and it's going to compare the number
`that you've dialed to see what format you've put it in. For
`example, have you used a short form seven-digit phone number
`such as 555-1234. It's going to compare that to a caller
`profile, the caller information, to look at the attributes to
`make certain assumptions about the phone number you're trying
`to reach. It's then going to reformat that number based on
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`5
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`the assumptions that it's making.
` Why would it need to do this reformat? It
`fundamentally has to do with the difference between IP phones
`and the standard PSTN phones. The traditional phones that
`we're used to hanging in your kitchen -- used to be hanging
`in your kitchen were hard-wired through an actual line to a
`local office in your neighborhood. What that meant is that
`they had a physical location. And because they had a
`physical location, when you made a phone call on a standard
`phone, assumptions could be made.
` If you dialed a seven-digit number, the phone
`system could assume that you were making a local call in your
`area, and it would apply your area code, and it would apply
`the 1 that we're comfortable dialing with, the national
`dialing code.
` That assumption does not exist with IP phones. IP
`phones can be taken and plugged in anywhere into any network
`in any country, any location in the United States. So those
`dialing conventions don't apply anymore.
` So the idea here with the challenged patents was
`because you're dealing with an IP phone that does not allow
`someone to dial in the format that they're used to, in fact,
`an IP phone would require you to dial with what's called an
`E.164 number. I'm going to use that a lot today. An E.164
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`6
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`number is just a standard phone number -- a standard format
`for a phone number that's used worldwide to be able to say
`this is the one phone number that identifies this one person.
`So VoIP phones require you to use an E.164 number.
` So the system of the challenged patents would take
`the number that was dialed, it would reformat it by comparing
`the number that was dialed to the information that's in the
`caller profile. And then based on that reformatted number,
`it would look in its database to see is that a user of our IP
`network; if so, it's a private call. If it's not a user of
`our IP network, then it would be sent to the public, the
`PSTN, for a phone call there.
` Prosecution shown on DX5. The main focus -- the
`only focus in prosecution was on this question of the
`reformatting. The comparison of the dialed phone number, in
`the example I gave you, the seven-digit number, to the caller
`profile. And then using that comparison to reformat the
`phone numbers. You see here in the '815 prosecution, it
`stated, "Alexander simply looks up the callee number and
`fails to disclose or suggest any criteria that are used in
`conjunction with the comparison involving calling
`attributes." That comparison, again, is the looking at the
`dialed number to what is in the user profile, the caller's
`profile, to make assumptions about how to reformat that phone
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`7
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`number. Based on this distinction, the reformatting of the
`patents were granted.
` Now, let's take a look at DX6. This is probably
`our best example of how this reformatting works in the
`patent. Shown in DX6 is Figure 8B and it includes the claim
`language from the '005 patent Claim 1. Now, the '005 and the
`'815 have very similar claim language for this reformatting.
`I'm going to show you how this works and we'll be talking
`about the reformatting in the context of these limitations as
`we proceed.
` So the '005 says, "When at least one of said
`calling attributes and at least a portion of a callee
`identifier associated with the callee meet private network
`classification criteria." So let's break this down. We have
`calling attributes from the caller, that's the person making
`the call. Those are contained in a caller profile and it
`includes information about me, what my national dialing digit
`would be, my international dialing digit, an area code that
`you would want to apply, that's in the user -- the caller
`profile. The system then looks at the dialed number and
`compares it to those calling attributes, that's the left side
`of Figure 8B that we see on DX6 here.
` As you walk down the left side, you see a
`comparison looking for a match. We start with the callee
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`8
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`identifier, it begins with a caller IDD, international
`dialing digit, and it proceeds to look for a match. I've
`highlighted box 396 here in the instance of where a match is
`made. The callee identifier length matches the caller local
`dialing length.
` So in this instance, we're using the seven-digit
`555-1234 seven-digit short form. It compares that to the
`caller profile. It realizes that the seven matches the
`seven-digit shortened number in the caller profile and it
`makes a match. In this instance, it's going to set the call
`as local. It's going to proceed to box 400, at which point,
`it's going to reformat the phone number into a standard
`format, an E.164 for example.
` It's going to reformat the phone number based on
`the assumptions that it's made from the caller's profile, at
`which point, this proceeds to box 269 in the upper right
`corner. There it's going to take that reformatted phone
`number, which is now something that can identify a single
`person, and it's going to look in its database to see is that
`single person one of you our subscribers; if so, it proceeds
`to the green box B for a private IP system call. If not, it
`proceeds to green box C for a public system call.
` DX7 shows claim language from the '815 patent Claim
`1 "determining a match when at least one of said calling
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`9
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`attributes matches at least a portion of said callee
`identifier." This is the same functionality that I just
`described shown in Figure 8B. So those are the two
`limitations relating to the formatting aspect.
` Now I want to talk about our base --
` JUDGE COCKS: Counsel, may I ask you.
` MR. SEITZ: Yes, sir.
` JUDGE COCKS: Go back one slide.
` Is there any difference in this limitation from the
`prior limitation of the patent? What's the difference
`between those two limitations?
` MR. SEITZ: In operation, there's no difference.
`And no party has claimed that there is any difference here.
` JUDGE COCKS: Go ahead. Thank you.
` MR. SEITZ: So let's take a look at our base
`reference. Our base reference is Chu '684, it is a
`VoIP-based phone system dated September 2003. Chu '684 IP
`phone system and what we see here are Figures 2 and Figures 8
`put together from Chu on DX8. In Chu '684, it allows the
`user to make two different kinds of phone calls, an IP-to-IP
`phone call, which is what it calls an on-net call. It also
`allows the user to make an on-net -- I'm sorry, not an
`on-net, an IP-to-PSTN phone call, what they call an off-net
`call. So on-net is IP to IP. Off-net is IP to PSTN.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`10
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
` Looking still at DX8 in Figure 2 on the left side,
`we have an IP phone in the yellow triangle. That IP phone
`can make a phone call to another IP phone shown on the far
`right side of this figure here, 601. It can do that by
`dialing an E.164 number. Chu '684 specifically states that
`each IP phone includes or is assigned its own E.164, the long
`standard phone number. When that phone call is made, it
`sends that to server 110, which is in the upper left corner.
`Server 110 is going to look at the dialed number. It's going
`to determine if that's a user that's on its network for an
`on-net call or whether it's a user that's off-net for a
`public call.
` In this example here on DX8, we have an on-net
`call. In that instance, the soft switch 220 is going to
`create a private network routing message that's going to
`identify on the right side in Figure 8 of the right side of
`DX8, an egress packet switch which is connected to the
`destination customer premises, at which point, that phone
`call will be completed for an on-net phone call.
` DX9 gives us an example of an on-net to an off-net,
`or an IP to a PSTN, an off-net phone call, and there it
`operates just the same. A phone number will be dialed, the
`server will determine whether that is an on-net call or an
`off-net call, it will then identify a PSTN gateway, and send
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`11
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`the call off to the public phone on the PSTN network.
` Now, Chu '684 only looked at the dialed digits. It
`processes those dialed digits to look and see where to assign
`the call. What it did not have was the ability to look at a
`caller profile and examine and compare. And so I want to
`talk briefly about our secondary references.
` Now, Chu '684 was a VoIP phone system. So we know,
`based on the disclosure in Chu '684 that you used an E.164
`phone number. That is a long, cumbersome phone number to put
`in, very much not like we're used to dialing a normal phone
`that would have been hanging in our kitchen on a standard
`PSTN network. There's two references, Chu '366 and Chen that
`we've used for the two combinations in this case, both
`disclose VoIP phone systems that allow a phone number to be
`reformatted so that you can dial in a way that you're used to
`dialing so that a VoIP phone system won't be a complete
`change to a user. They can pick that up and they can
`continue to dial just like they've always dialed from their
`standard PSTN phone.
` Chu '366 and Chen both have user specific profiles,
`that is what we talked about before, information about the
`caller that is specific to that caller, their location, their
`national dialing digit, their area code, information that is
`user specific. That's part one of how we're using these
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`12
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`references. That is not in dispute that these two are user
`specific profiles. Dr. Mangione-Smith, VoIP-Pal's expert,
`has agreed that both Chu '366 and Chen teach user specific
`dialing profiles. So the first part of these references is
`the user profile contains information about the dialer.
` DX12 gets us into the second part of these
`references. This brings us around to bringing a user back, a
`dialer, a caller back to a familiar dialing format. And here
`in DX12, we're looking at Chen. Chen allows a user to dial a
`phone in a manner similar to how they would have dialed a
`standard PSTN phone. And it follows a number reformatting
`process nearly identical in its Figure 6 to Figure 8B of the
`challenged patents.
` Looking at Figure 6 on the right side of DX12 from
`Chen, we see a flowchart that walks through the matching and
`reformatting process. This starts with a dial plan. And the
`dial plan is disclosed at paragraph 33 in Chen. And the dial
`plan includes an IDD, an NDD, country code and area code,
`information specific to that caller. Using that dial plan,
`which they call prefix-A in this figure, it receives the
`dialing number at 601 and then it proceeds to walk through
`each of these boxes in the flowchart to create a match.
` Here I've highlighted box 606 for our example.
`It's looking at the dial number, comparing that to the user
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`13
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`profile and comparing. And when we reach box 606, we see
`that here our national dialing digits match of the called
`number and the the caller profile. When that matches, it
`moves to box 607, which reformats the phone number to a
`standard E.164 format. The very same comparison and
`reformatting is shown on the left side of DX12 in Figure 8B.
`Box 380, a caller identifier, that's your dialed number,
`begins with the caller national dialing digits, the
`comparison to the NDD from the dial number to the NDD in the
`user profile. When those match, we see box 388 reformats the
`phone number.
` Moving to DX13, Chu '366 includes another almost
`identical figure here. Here in Chu '366, they have caller
`profiles, user profiles. In Chu '366, they're called call
`origin location profiles. Those are disclosed in column 2,
`line 9 to 13. The call origin location profile is a
`mouthful, but it's a user profile, a caller profile. That
`contains information such as geographic information on where
`you are, your area code and your country code. That is also
`run through a comparison to the dialed number.
` So starting with 156 and Figure 6 of Chu, we see
`that it's going to parse the number that you've dialed at
`which point it's going to begin comparing the number you
`dialed to the information in the caller profile. Box 172,
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`14
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`when you match a length from the dial number to a length
`that's in the caller profile, it proceeds to box 174, it
`reformats the phone number and puts it into E.164 format.
`Again, identical to Figure 8B, as shown on the left side,
`it's going to match the caller identifier length, the dialed
`number length to the length that's in the caller profile,
`it's then going to proceed to reformat the phone number.
` Our specific combinations here rest on taking Chu
`'684, which teaches a VoIP phone system that can send calls
`to either an IP phone, an on-net call, or a PSTN phone, an
`off-net call. And it processes and looks at phone numbers to
`make that determination. Then using the secondary references
`to teach that you would look at a user profile and to teach
`the reformatting, the steps we just walked through, to
`perform that functionality. Once the number is reformatted
`based on the match that we just discussed, Chu '684 uses that
`phone number, that reformatted phone number, to do a
`comparison into its database to look and see whether that's a
`subscriber, that would be a on-net call, or if it's not a
`subscriber, which would be an off-net to the PSTN call.
`Those are our specific combinations here.
` Now, there's two main arguments that VoIP-Pal has
`made in this case at a very high level. Their primary
`argument is their swear-behind effort and I'm going to come
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`15
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`back to that. I'm going to start with their other arguments
`on the substance of our combinations and the substance of our
`references. There they've identified three specific what
`they believe to be weaknesses; specific dialing conventions,
`enterprise versus user specific profiles, and then a
`challenge to the motivation to combine.
` Let's talk about special dialing conventions.
`Special dialing conventions, according to Patent Owner, are a
`requirement in Chu '684. We see here from their response,
`Patent Owner's response, their claim about how Chu '684 must
`work. Patent Owner's claiming in such a system, system of
`Chu '684, a user must do one of two things: One, dial a
`private number to place a call to another private IP phone,
`or, two, dial a PSTN access code such as 9 to reach an
`outside line.
` Patent Owner's contention here is that because you
`would either dial -- you must dial a private number to go to
`another IP phone such as an extension or a 9 to reach an
`outside line, you would never combine it with another
`reference that would reformat to then perform that comparison
`process. You'll notice there's no citation after this
`contention of what Chu '684 requires. There's no citation
`because Chu '684 does not actually teach these specific
`dialing conventions.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`16
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
` Moving to DX17. Dr. Mangione-Smith, Patent Owner's
`expert, admitted and could point to no teaching in Chu '684
`that suggested the prefix digits were required. When asked,
`"Can you point me to any specific teaching in Chu '684 that
`says a prefix digit," a 9 for example, "must be dialed to reach
`a destination callee on the PSTN?" he answered, "Off the top
`of my head, no." When asked if he relied on such a teaching,
`his answer was, "I don't recall if I relied upon it." He did
`not rely upon it because it doesn't exist.
` As we pressed him further, Dr. Mangione,
`admitted -- Dr. Mangione-Smith admitted -- and this is at
`page 147, lines 3 to 4 of his deposition -- that his guess --
`quote, "My guess is we dial 9 or 8 to get an outside line
`here," talking about how Chu '684 would operate. So he's
`making a guess as to how Chu '684 operates. He then
`continues on as we see the citation on DX18 on the top right
`side where he says, "I think that" -- that's difficult to
`read up there. What he says is that "I think that that's
`inherent in a PBX system unless told otherwise." So
`Dr. Mangione-Smith admitted that he's guessing there's an
`inherent limitation as to the prefix or privately dialing
`requirements.
` Two big problems with that. One,
`Dr. Mangione-Smith is not a telephony expert. He lists no
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`17
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`telephony experience in his CV. He doesn't list any
`telephony experience or requirement for his definition of one
`of skill in the art. And he admitted he has never worked on
`any PBX system. He simply doesn't have the qualifications as
`a telephony expert to say what would have been inherent or
`make a guess about what would have been inherent in one of
`these systems.
` Even if you assume he is a great telephony expert,
`he is going against the expressed teaching of Chu '684, which
`is a much bigger problem. On DX19, we see that Chu '684 does
`not require a prefix digit, a 9, to dial out to the PSTN.
`There --
` JUDGE COCKS: Counsel, I have one quick question.
` MR. SEITZ: Yes, sir.
` JUDGE COCKS: Just to be clear. So do you agree
`that the claims of the '005 and '815 patent exclude the use
`of a prefix digit?
` MR. SEITZ: Do I agree that they exclude the use?
` JUDGE COCKS: Yes.
` MR. SEITZ: I don't believe they would require the
`use of that, no.
` JUDGE COCKS: So they do not require, but they do
`not exclude the use of a digit?
` MR. SEITZ: No, they would exclude because it's
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`18
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`comparing the dialed digits of the phone number to parse what
`we see in Figure 8, which does not involve a prefix digit.
` JUDGE COCKS: Go ahead. Okay. Thank you.
` MR. SEITZ: Chu '684 tells us very clearly from the
`dialed digits of a destination phone that is being called,
`PSTN phone, ingress soft-switch determines that this call is
`for the PSTN. So Chu '684 has an express disclosure that
`it's looking at the dialed digits of the PSTN phone to make
`the determination as to whether it is a public call for the
`PSTN. Again, contrary to what Dr. Mangione-Smith is saying.
` DX20 we see the same thing for the private dialing
`convention, dialing an extension, for example, on the IP
`network. Chu '684 teaches us -- and I touched on this
`briefly -- that each IP phone is assigned an E.164 phone
`number, that's the citation on the top right side of DX20.
`Chu '684 also teaches each here in the example on the bottom
`right from column 8:65 to 9:17, in the example of an on-net
`phone call to another on-net phone call at another location.
`Looking at the very bottom-sided portion, the outgoing call
`request message from server 110 to soft-switch 220 includes
`whether the number plan is private numbering plan or the
`public E.164 number plan.
` So the expressed disclosure of Chu '684 tells us
`that in an IP-to-IP phone call, an on-net situation, it will
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`19
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`look at whether the user has dialed an E.164 number of the
`other IP phone. So there's a clear disclosure in Chu '684,
`important for the public E.164 number here, the Patent Owner
`is excluding from this. So there's no requirement in
`Chu '684 that you dial a 9, no expressed requirement, and
`there is no expressed requirement that you only dial another
`IP phone through a private numbering scheme.
` Let's look at the next argument they've made, which
`is the enterprise versus user specific dialing profile.
`Here, Patent Owner has argued that we are misinterpreting the
`term "subscriber" in Chu '684 and denoting it as an
`individual caller or user when the disclosure of Chu '684
`refers to an enterprise as opposed to an individual caller.
`This seems to be based on a misunderstanding or a fundamental
`misinterpretation of how we have put forth our combinations
`in this case.
` Our combinations in this case clearly identify the
`user specific dialing profile from the secondary references
`being used instead of the enterprise dial plan or enterprise
`profile from Chu '684. If you look at our petitions in the
`'005, for example, limitation 1A, page 18 and page 42, we
`cite Chu '684, but we also include a citation to the user
`specific dialing plans from the secondary references. The
`user specific dial plans include the information about an
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`20
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`individual user, not an enterprise user. And as we've
`already discussed, there's no debate, no dispute that our
`secondary references teach user specific dialing plans.
` We've also set forth, it's our contention our
`expert has described that this would be an easy combination.
`Chu '684 already has the necessary infrastructure to do a
`lookup of an individual user's information. We know
`Chu '684, from its expressed disclosure, includes a lookup to
`see what the E.164 number is for each individual IP phone.
`So the ability to look at an individual caller, an individual
`user, and match that IP phone and its IP decrease to an E.164
`number is already in Chu '684. It would be an easy
`combination because the infrastructure is already there to
`add the user specific caller profile with the more specific
`geographic information to Chu '684.
` Finally, that takes us to the motivation to combine
`arguments. Patent Owner has argued that we failed to provide
`any particularized reasoning for the motivation to combine.
`Let's start with the secondary references themselves. They
`provide some of the best explanation for a motivation to
`combine here. Recall Chu '684 is a VoIP phone system. It
`discusses assigning E.164 phone numbers to each of its IP
`phones. An E.164 number is a rather long number starting
`with a plus sign and then including your full international,
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`21
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`national dialing format. It's a long and cumbersome format.
` Chu here looking at DX25, Chu '366, discusses this
`problem and why it would be beneficial to have a system that
`allowed normal dialing. Chu -- looking at Chu '366 here,
`they talk about how when making telephones calls via a
`traditional PSTN, a subscriber can enter abbreviated numbers,
`the seven digit that we talked about, for local and national
`telephone calls.
` By contrast, there is no such concept of local,
`long distance or national calls when making a phone call via
`a Internet telephony. Chu '36 [sic] goes on to say, "Even
`when making a local phone call, within . . . the United States [in a
`VoIP system], instead of simply entering the seven digit
`telephone phone number, the VoIP subscriber must enter plus,
`[and] then the country code, [and] then the area code, [and] then
`the telephone number. This is time-consuming and bothersome,
`especially when subscribers are used to the concept of
`abbreviated telephone numbers for local and national calls
`with traditional PSTN systems." That cumbersome dialing is
`what was present in Chu '684.
` Chen includes a similar disclosure on DX26. There,
`Chen describes "A primary object of the present invention is
`to provide a communication method . . . so that a user in any
`region or country may place phone calls in a familiar manner."
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`22
`
`

`

`
`Case IPR2016-01198 (Patent 9,179,005 B2)
`Case IPR2016-01201 Patent 8,542,815, B2)
`
`Dr. Houh also provided additional explanation for the
`motivations to combine in his declarations. They c

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket