IPR2016-01159 Ex. 2013
`Windy City Innovations, LLC, Patent Owner 1
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`Windy City Innovations, LLC, Patent Owner 1
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`·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· ·FACEBOOK INC.,· · · · · · · )
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`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· )
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`·6· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
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`·7· ·WINDY CITY INNOVATIONS, LLC,)
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`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.)
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`10· ·Case No. IPR2016-01157 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,407,356
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`11· ·Case No. IPR2016-01159 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,694,657
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`12· ·Case No. IPR2016-01156 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,458,245
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`13· ·Case No. IPR2016-01158 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,473,552
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`15· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF TAL LAVIAN, Ph.D
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·Palo Alto, California
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`17· · · · · · · · ·Thursday, July 20, 2017
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`22· ·Reported by:· Ashley Soevyn, CSR No. 12019
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`23· ·Job No. J061738
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`24· ·Pages 1 - 53
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`·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· ·FACEBOOK INC.,· · · · · · · )
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`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· )
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`·6· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
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`·7· ·WINDY CITY INNOVATIONS, LLC,)
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`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.)
`· · ·____________________________)
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`10· ·Case No. IPR2016-01157 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,407,356
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`11· ·Case No. IPR2016-01159 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,694,657
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`12· ·Case No. IPR2016-01156 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,458,245
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`13· ·Case No. IPR2016-01158 for U.S. Pat. No. 8,473,552
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`17· · · · · · ·Deposition of TAL LAVIAN, P.h.D taken on
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`18· ·behalf of the patent owner, at 3175 Hanover Street,
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`19· ·Palo Alto, California, beginning at 10:11 a.m.· and
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`20· ·ending at 12:13 p.m. on Thursday, July 20, 2017,
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`21· ·before ASHLEY SOEVYN, Certified Shorthand Reporter
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`22· ·No. 12019.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·3· ·For the Petitioner Facebook Inc.
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`·4· · · · · · ·COOLEY LLP
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`·5· · · · · · ·BY:· ANDREW MACE
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`·6· · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
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`·7· · · · · · ·3175 Hanover Street
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`·8· · · · · · ·Palo Alto, California 94304
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`·9· · · · · · ·E-mail: amace@cooley.com
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`10· · · · · · ·Phone: (650) 843-5000
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`12· ·For the Patent Owner
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`13· · · · · · ·BROWN RUDNICK LLP
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`14· · · · · · ·BY:· SHAHAR HAREL (Telephonic Appearance)
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`15· · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
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`16· · · · · · ·7 Times Square
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`17· · · · · · ·New York, New York 10036
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`18· · · · · · ·E-mail: sharel@brownrudnick.com
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`19· · · · · · ·Phone: (212) 209-4800
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·3· ·DEPOSITION OF TAL LAVIAN
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`·4· ·EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·5· ·MR. HAREL· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·2· · LAVIAN DEPOSITION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· ·Exhibit 1· · ·Second declaration of Tal· · · · · ·6
`· · · · · · · · · ·Lavian, PH.D. Facebook's Ex. No.
`·4· · · · · · · · ·1021
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`·5· ·Exhibit 2· · ·US Patent No. 6,608,636B1· · · · · ·7
`· · · · · · · · · ·Facebook Inc's Ex. No. 1003
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`· · ·Exhibit 3· · ·Article entitled, Predicting the· ·18
`·7· · · · · · · · ·Internet's catastrophic collapse
`· · · · · · · · · ·and ghost sites galore in 1996
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`· · ·Exhibit 4· · ·NewsRoom article dated 4/11/97· · ·21
`·9· · · · · · · · ·entitled, Reuters
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`10· ·Exhibit 5· · ·Article entitled, Bob Metcalfe· · ·25
`· · · · · · · · · ·on What's wrong with the
`11· · · · · · · · ·Internet: It's the economy,
`· · · · · · · · · ·stupid.
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`· · ·Exhibit 6· · ·Declaration of Tal Lavian, PH.D.· ·32
`13· · · · · · · · ·US Patent No. 8,458,245
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`14· ·Exhibit 7· · ·Book entitled, Database System· · ·37
`· · · · · · · · · ·Concepts by Henry Korth and
`15· · · · · · · · ·Abraham Silberschatz
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`16· ·Exhibit 8· · ·Book entitled, The Database Book· ·39
`· · · · · · · · · ·by Mary Loomis
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`· · ·Exhibit 9· · ·Article entitled, Why we don't· · ·40
`18· · · · · · · · ·know how to simulate the
`· · · · · · · · · ·internet
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`·1· · · · · ·Palo Alto, California, July 20, 2017
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · 10:11 a.m.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·TAL LAVIAN,
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`·5· ·having been administered an oath, was examined and
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`·6· ·testified as follows:
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·9· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`10· · · · ·Q· · Good morning, Dr. Lavian.
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`11· · · · ·A· · Good morning.
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`12· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· Just so we get this on
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`13· ·record, the context in which we're taking this
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`14· ·deposition is a remote deposition.· You're in Palo
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`15· ·Alto.· I'm in New York City.
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`16· · · · · · · If we can give you what has been put in
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`17· ·the folder marked A.· It is the declaration that you
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`18· ·submitted, the second declaration.· We can mark that
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`19· ·as Exhibit 1.
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`20· · · · · (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
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`21· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Just to clarify, the audio
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`22· ·quality is, I would say, terrible.· So if you can
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`23· ·speak slowly, it would great.· Loudly and slowly.
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`24· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· If you can give him Exhibit G
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`25· ·and mark it as Exhibit 2.
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`·1· · · · · (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
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`·2· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`·3· · · · ·Q· · Could you review Exhibit 1 and confirm
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`·4· ·it's your second declaration, the IPR numbers 1156,
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`·5· ·1157, 1158 and 1159.
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`·6· · · · ·A· · Just to repeat what I said before, the
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`·7· ·audio quality is terrible and very hard for me to
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`·8· ·understand what you say.· I understand that you want
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`·9· ·me to review the second declaration, if this is
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`10· ·mine.· Is that your question?
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`11· · · · ·Q· · If Exhibit 1 is your second declaration,
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`12· ·correct.
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`13· · · · ·A· · Yes, it is.
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`14· · · · ·Q· · And Exhibit 2 is the Roseman reference?
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`15· · · · ·A· · Yes, it is.
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`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Give me one second.
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`17· · · · · · · So in Exhibit 1, can you go to the
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`18· ·paragraph marked 46?
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`19· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`20· · · · ·Q· · Can you review that and let me know when
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`21· ·you're finished.
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`22· · · · ·A· · Yes.· I reviewed it.
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`23· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And it's your position that the
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`24· ·keys in the Roseman reference correspond to the
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`25· ·tokens in the Marks' patent; is that correct?
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`·1· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure I understand what you
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`·2· ·clearly say.
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`·3· · · · ·Q· · The Marks' patent teaches token; correct?
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`·4· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · And in the prior art, Roseman, the tokens
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`·6· ·are, according to your position, the keys in
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`·7· ·Roseman, correct?
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`·8· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`·9· · · · ·Q· · If you go to Roseman column nine, the
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`10· ·section from lines 32 to 50 or so.
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`11· · · · ·A· · Which line?
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`12· · · · ·Q· · Thirty-two to 48.
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`13· · · · · · · Can you review those?
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`14· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`15· · · · ·Q· · What is the difference between an
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`16· ·invitation and a key in Roseman?
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`17· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure I understand what you ask.
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`18· ·Can you please elaborate?
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`19· · · · ·Q· · What is meant by invitation in Roseman?
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`20· · · · ·A· · Invitation is invitation of a person to a
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`21· ·room, for example.
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`22· · · · ·Q· · And in your declaration, paragraph 46,
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`23· ·you said that the key is simply a block data or a
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`24· ·code.
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`25· · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`·1· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · Is an invitation a block of data or a
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`·3· ·code?
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`·4· · · · ·A· · It also can be, but that's not -- it also
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`·5· ·can be, yes.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · You would agree that an invitation can
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`·7· ·contain a key, correct?
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`·8· · · · ·A· · I can barely hear you.· The audio quality
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`·9· ·is not so great.· Can you speak slowly?
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`10· · · · ·Q· · An invitation can contain a key, correct?
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`11· · · · ·A· · It's possible, yes.
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`12· · · · ·Q· · Can you explain what is meant by an
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`13· ·invitation contains a key by referring to a block of
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`14· ·data or a code?
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`15· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure I understand your question.
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`16· ·Can you please explain what you mean?
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`17· · · · ·Q· · You said that both a key and an
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`18· ·invitation can be blocks of data or a code, correct?
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`19· · · · ·A· · This is a possibility, yes.
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`20· · · · ·Q· · And an invitation can contain a key,
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`21· ·correct?
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`22· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure about it.· Where do you see
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`23· ·it?
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`24· · · · ·Q· · I thought you -- I thought you just
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`25· ·testified column nine, line 42?
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`·1· · · · ·A· · I can't really hear you.· I'm not sure I
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`·2· ·understand what you're asking.
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`·3· · · · ·Q· · Is this better?· Can you hear me now?
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`·4· · · · ·A· · I can hear you, but terrible quality.
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · On column nine, line 42, do you see where
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`·6· ·it says, "Invitation can contain keys"?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`·8· · · · ·Q· · And when an invitation contains a key,
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`·9· ·what does that mean in terms of the different blocks
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`10· ·of codes or data?
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`11· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`12· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure that I
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`13· ·understand what you say, what you ask.· Can you
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`14· ·clarify your question?
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`15· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`16· · · · ·Q· · Can you give me an example of what it
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`17· ·means to be a block of code or data?
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`18· · · · ·A· · That's what the patent said, that the
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`19· ·keys is a block of data.· It says so on Roseman
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`20· ·column six, lines 60 to 61.
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`21· · · · ·Q· · Can you give me an example of what that
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`22· ·means?
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`23· · · · ·A· · Many ways you can put keys in a block of
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`24· ·data or code.
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`25· · · · ·Q· · Can you give one example?
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`·1· · · · ·A· · I can speculate an example that the key
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`·2· ·will be a specific number or the key can be specific
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`·3· ·information in a data or in a code.· I can just
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`·4· ·speculate.· I refer directly to Roseman column six,
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`·5· ·line 60 to 61.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · If you were to look at the block of data
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`·7· ·associated with this invitation, how would you know
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`·8· ·if the key is contained within that block of data?
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`·9· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`10· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
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`11· ·your question.· Can you please elaborate or explain
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`12· ·what you mean by this?
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`13· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`14· · · · ·Q· · Well, you said that an invitation can
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`15· ·contain a key, correct?
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`16· · · · ·A· · Yes.· That's in the patent, yes.
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`17· · · · ·Q· · And an invitation can be a block or
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`18· ·code -- a block of data, correct?
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`19· · · · ·A· · Keys is block of data, yes.
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`20· · · · ·Q· · An invitation is also a block of data.
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`21· ·Didn't you testify to that?
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`22· · · · ·A· · It is possible, yes.
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`23· · · · ·Q· · If one were to look at the block of data
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`24· ·associated with an invitation, could one determine
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`25· ·if the key is part of that invitation?
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`·1· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`·2· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
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`·3· ·the question.
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`·4· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`·5· · · · ·Q· · What's the difficulty with the question?
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`·6· · · · ·A· · I don't understand it.
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`·7· · · · ·Q· · If one were to have access to the
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`·8· ·invitation, and you said an invitation may be blocks
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`·9· ·of data, how can one determine if that invitation
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`10· ·contains a key?
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`11· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`12· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
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`13· ·the question.
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`14· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`15· · · · ·Q· · Let me ask you this:· Do all invitations
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`16· ·contain keys?
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`17· · · · ·A· · What I can see on line 42 is that
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`18· ·invitation contain key was conformed to the above
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`19· ·invitation level and explained the invitations --
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`20· ·the invitations levels of Level 1, Level 2 and
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`21· ·Level 3.
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`22· · · · ·Q· · So you can't say either way whether all
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`23· ·invitations contain keys?
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`24· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`25· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
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`·1· ·your question.
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`·2· ·BY MR. HAREL:
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`·3· · · · ·Q· · An invitation in Roseman's system, must
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`·4· ·it contain a key?
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`·5· · · · ·A· · Where do you see that it must?
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · That's what I'm asking you.· Must it?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · I don't see for this any support for each
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`·8· ·direction.
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`·9· · · · ·Q· · Must a key be part of an invitation?
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`10· · · · ·A· · The invitation contains keys.
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`11· · · · ·Q· · Must a key be associated with an
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`12· ·invitation?
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`13· · · · ·A· · If -- you ask if a key must be
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`14· ·association with an invitation?
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`15· · · · ·Q· · Must be associated with an invitation.
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`16· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure about this.
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`17· · · · · · · I am thinking about possibility.· I'm
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`18· ·just putting hypothetical situation that you may
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`19· ·have a key that was not sent to anyone.· So it's a
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`20· ·key without an invitation.
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`21· · · · · · · I need to investigate and see if this is
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`22· ·the situation.· I just gave you one example.· So I'm
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`23· ·not sure I understand your questions.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · Can you think of any other such examples?
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`25· · · · ·A· · Examples that the key is not associated
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`·1· ·to an invitation?
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · Correct.
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`·3· · · · ·A· · For example, it's not -- I don't see
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`·4· ·here -- if you have a key for a room and nobody is
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`·5· ·invited or it was not sent to anyone, for example.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · Any other example?
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`·7· · · · ·A· · Not on top of my head right now.· If you
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`·8· ·have something specifically, I will be happy to
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`·9· ·answer.
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`10· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Let me ask you something else.
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`11· · · · · · · Had you heard of Robert Metcalfe in 1996?
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`12· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure about in 1996.· I know who
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`13· ·is this guy.
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`14· · · · ·Q· · And have you met him personally?
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`15· · · · ·A· · No, not personally.
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`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Do you agree that he was one of
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`17· ·the leading experts in 1996 with respect to Internet
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`18· ·traffic and understanding Internet traffic?
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`19· · · · ·A· · He was respectable guy, yes.
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`20· · · · ·Q· · Would you say he was one of the leading
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`21· ·experts?
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`22· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not sure what you mean by
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`24· ·"leading expert."· He has his credentials.· He has
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`25· ·Ph.D from Harvard.· He was here -- one mile from
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`·1· ·here at Xerox and he has his own credential, yes.
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · Anybody else you can think of who you
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`·3· ·would consider to be a leading expert with respect
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`·4· ·to Internet traffic in the 1996 time frame?
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`·5· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
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`·6· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not on top of my head.· And
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`·7· ·I'm sure -- I'm trying to understand what you mean
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`·8· ·by Internet traffic.· He was not an expert of
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`·9· ·Internet traffic, he was expert in switching and
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`10· ·cables, the cable of the Internet, not in infra
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`11· ·traffic.
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`12· · · · ·Q· · Who would you say -- let me ask you --
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`13· ·let me restart.
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`14· · · · · · · Have you heard of an individual by the
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`15· ·name of Leonard Kleinrock?
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`16· · · · ·A· · Whom?
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`17· · · · ·Q· · Leonard Kleinrock, K-L-E-I-N-R-O-C-K.
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`18· · · · ·A· · I don't remember.· I don't think I know
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`19· ·this guy.
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`20· · · · ·Q· · You don't think you've heard of him?
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`21· · · · ·A· · Hmm?
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`22· · · · ·Q· · You have not heard of him before?
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`23· · · · ·A· · I don't think so.
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`24· · · · ·Q· · Have you heard of John Postel,
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`25· ·P-O-S-T-E-L?
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`·1· · · · ·A· · John Postel?
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`·2· · · · ·Q· · Yes.
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`·3· · · · ·A· · I don't remember.
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`·4· · · · ·Q· · Have you heard of Sally Floyd?
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`·5· · · · ·A· · Yes.
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`·6· · · · ·Q· · And who is she, to the best of your
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`·7· ·understanding?
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`·8· · · · ·A· · She's the wife of -- I don't remember
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`·9· ·this guy, but he was from Cisco.· She wrote several
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`10· ·articles and TCP/IP papers.
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`11· · · · ·Q· · Did she write papers with respect to
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`12· ·Internet traffic in the 1990s time frame?
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`13· · · · ·A· · I don't know.· I'm not sure.· I heard the
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`14· ·name but not more than this.· I need to take a look
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`15· ·and refer and see the papers.· I remember the name
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`16· ·but not more than this.
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`17· · · · ·Q· · Do you know the name -- let me restart.
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`18· · · · · · · Have you heard the name Bern Paxson,
`
`19· ·B-E-R-N, P-A-X-S-O-N?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · I believe so.· It sounds -- it sounds
`
`21· ·familiar.· I do not recall right now.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · Have you heard the name Van Jacobson
`
`23· ·before?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · You mean Van Jacobson?
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Correct.
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · Would you say he was one of the leading
`
`·3· ·experts about Internet traffic in the 1990s time
`
`·4· ·frame?
`
`·5· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.· Outside the
`
`·6· ·scope.
`
`·7· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure if -- what you
`
`·8· ·mean by Internet traffic.· He was involved in TCP/IP
`
`·9· ·protocol.· If I recall correctly, he suggested in
`
`10· ·one of the ITF papers a new approach for algorithms
`
`11· ·for a TCP, but I don't remember the details. I
`
`12· ·cannot say if he was an Internet traffic expert.· As
`
`13· ·far as I remember, he understand queus.· He was
`
`14· ·focused on Internet -- on queus and queus theory.
`
`15· ·But I'm not sure about Internet traffic.· I don't
`
`16· ·know.
`
`17· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · For the court reporter, it's Q-U-E-U,
`
`19· ·correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · Have you heard the name Vince Cerf,
`
`22· ·C-E-R-F, before?
`
`23· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · And who is he?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · He's a VP at Google.
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · And what was his role in the 1990s with
`
`·2· ·respect to the Internet?
`
`·3· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·4· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure what you mean
`
`·5· ·by "his role," but he's very important guy that was
`
`·6· ·a -- he was substantial.· I'm not sure that's the
`
`·7· ·right word, but he was important guy for the
`
`·8· ·creation of the Internet.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Of all the people that we mentioned now,
`
`10· ·would you say that Robert Metcalfe was the most
`
`11· ·prominent Internet expert in the mid 1990s?
`
`12· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`13· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· ·I don't know and I don't
`
`14· ·think so.
`
`15· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · Who do you think would be more?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · I don't know.· I need to look at this. I
`
`18· ·don't know.
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· If we can move to the next
`
`20· ·exhibit, which is Exhibit J.· If we can mark that
`
`21· ·Exhibit 3.
`
`22· · · · · (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Do you recognize Exhibit 3?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · And did you read this article in the
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·1995-1996 time frame?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · I don't believe so.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Did you hear about this article in the
`
`·4· ·1995-1996 time frame?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · I don't think so.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · When did you first hear about Robert
`
`·7· ·Metcalfe's prediction about the Internet in 1996?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · I don't know.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Was it before preparing for this -- these
`
`10· ·IPRs that we're here today?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · Yes, I believe so.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · You believe it was in the 1990s?
`
`13· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · You met your own standard for person of
`
`15· ·ordinary skill in the art, correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · I'm not sure I understand what you mean
`
`17· ·by this.· Can you please repeat the question?
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · You have -- you have put forth what a
`
`19· ·person of ordinary skill in the art, what
`
`20· ·credentials and experience such person must have,
`
`21· ·correct?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · And you yourself meet those credentials?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · Substantially more, yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · And you yourself meet those credentials
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· ·even back in 1996, correct?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · Yes, sure.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · In 1996 would it -- let me restart.
`
`·4· · · · · · · You don't dispute that in 1996, ISDN and
`
`·5· ·ATM networks were better suited for video than the
`
`·6· ·Internet, correct?
`
`·7· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·8· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
`
`·9· ·the question.
`
`10· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · If one wanted to do video conferencing in
`
`12· ·the 1990s, would one prefer ISDN networks and ATM
`
`13· ·networks over the Internet?
`
`14· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`15· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
`
`16· ·your question clearly.· ISDN and ATM are part of the
`
`17· ·backbone of the Internet.· Part of the Internet, the
`
`18· ·networks -- ATM is backbone of the Internet, and
`
`19· ·ISDN was part of the Internet.· So I'm not sure I
`
`20· ·understand your question.
`
`21· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · In 1996 most people accessed the Internet
`
`23· ·through dial-up means; is that correct?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · I believe so.· I don't have the exact
`
`25· ·details.· I believe so.
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · If they had ISDN connections, they would
`
`·2· ·have better video performance for any video
`
`·3· ·conferences that they decide to take part in,
`
`·4· ·correct?
`
`·5· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·6· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
`
`·7· ·your question.· ISDN was part of the Internet.· ISDN
`
`·8· ·could be and is one of the networks of the Internet.
`
`·9· ·So can you please elaborate what you mean?
`
`10· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · Is it your testimony that in the 1996,
`
`12· ·the backbone of the Internet was using ATM?
`
`13· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`14· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure if the
`
`15· ·backbone.· Maybe the word backbone is not the best
`
`16· ·word.· But the Internet itself was based on many
`
`17· ·different network technology, including ATM ISDN,
`
`18· ·frame relay, X.25, and some other technologies.
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· If you can get Exhibit O and
`
`20· ·mark it as Exhibit 4.
`
`21· · · · · (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)
`
`22· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Exhibit 4.
`
`23· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · Do you recognize Exhibit 4?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · And you don't expect that you read this
`
`·2· ·article in April '97, correct?
`
`·3· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q· · Do you see how the title of the article
`
`·5· ·is, "Sage who warned of Net's collapse eats his
`
`·6· ·words"?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · Do you dispute that Robert Metcalfe was a
`
`·9· ·sage?
`
`10· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`11· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· ·I'm not sure.· That's an
`
`12· ·article and anyone can write whatever he wants in
`
`13· ·the article, in any article.
`
`14· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Do you doubt whether that article is
`
`16· ·true?
`
`17· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`18· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It's not a matter of true
`
`19· ·or false.· That's the article it is, that press
`
`20· ·release.
`
`21· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · You refer to this article in your
`
`23· ·declaration, correct?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · And you read the entire article, correct?
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · What, if anything, do you dispute within
`
`·3· ·the article?
`
`·4· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·5· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand
`
`·6· ·the question.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · The article refers to Robert Metcalfe as
`
`·9· ·a networking pioneer.· Do you dispute that?
`
`10· · · · ·A· · The article is an article that tells a
`
`11· ·story about how he ate his hat in this case.· It's a
`
`12· ·nice story how he was wrong and ate his words in a
`
`13· ·suit.· Okay.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · Do you believe that to be a true fact?
`
`15· · · · ·A· · That's the article from the writer from
`
`16· ·this time.· It's a nice story.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · Beyond being a nice story, to what extent
`
`18· ·do you think this a true story?
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`20· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· He predicted something.
`
`21· ·After he realized that he was wrong, and he said he
`
`22· ·will eat his hat or will eat his words, and he
`
`23· ·ate -- literally ate the paper.
`
`24· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Is this a true story?
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · I don't know, I was not there.· That's
`
`·2· ·what I can see in the newspaper.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · The newspaper also says that there were
`
`·4· ·outages at Netcom On-Line Communications, America
`
`·5· ·OnLine, and BBN Corp.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Which line?
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · Fifth paragraph.
`
`·9· · · · ·A· · Can you repeat the question?· The audio
`
`10· ·quality is terrible.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · The article says, "Metcalfe said outages
`
`12· ·at Netcom On-Line Communications, America Online and
`
`13· ·BBN Corp had demonstrated instances where thousands
`
`14· ·and millions of lost service hours had occurred."
`
`15· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · Do you have any reason to dispute that
`
`18· ·that's true?
`
`19· · · · ·A· · I don't know.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · Do you see where the article refers to a
`
`21· ·gigalapse in the middle?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · What is your understanding of what a
`
`24· ·gigalapse meant?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · I don't know.· That's an article on the
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· ·newspaper, and I don't have -- that's what is
`
`·2· ·written in the newspaper.
`
`·3· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· If we can move on to Exhibit
`
`·4· ·N, N, as in Nancy, and mark it 5.
`
`·5· · · · · (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)
`
`·6· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Exhibit 5.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · Tell me if you recognize this article.
`
`·9· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · And when do you think you first saw this
`
`11· ·article?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · For this IPR case.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · What is your best understanding as to
`
`14· ·when this article was published?
`
`15· · · · ·A· · I can see on the bottom that it's
`
`16· ·April 1997.· And I believe this is true.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · Can you think of anybody else beside
`
`18· ·Robert Metcalfe who was as famous or who received as
`
`19· ·much press attention with respect to the performance
`
`20· ·of the Internet in the 1996 time frame?
`
`21· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`22· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure that he's the
`
`23· ·right guy for the performance.· I'm not sure if he's
`
`24· ·at all measured or had statistics on the performance
`
`25· ·on the Internet.· He worked -- he was important guy
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·in the area of basically inventing the cable of the
`
`·2· ·LAN.· He was respectable, but not sure if at all he
`
`·3· ·was involved in measurement of Internet traffic. I
`
`·4· ·don't know.
`
`·5· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· Let's put Internet traffic
`
`·6· ·aside.· Let's talk about Internet performance.
`
`·7· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·8· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· Who was more prominent than
`
`·9· ·him?
`
`10· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`11· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand.
`
`12· ·There were many people involved in Internet.· He was
`
`13· ·respectable in area of LAN and the cable of Layer 2,
`
`14· ·not the performance of the Internet.
`
`15· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · You don't characterize his predictions
`
`17· ·from December 1995 as relating to the performance of
`
`18· ·the Internet?
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`20· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· He wrote -- I'm not sure
`
`21· ·about it.· There are many articles in the news and
`
`22· ·this is another article.· You can find thousands, if
`
`23· ·not millions, of articles.
`
`24· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Can you name a person who is more
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· ·prominent than him in the 1996 time frame with
`
`·2· ·respect to the performance of the Internet from all
`
`·3· ·those thousands of articles that you mentioned?
`
`·4· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·5· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know.· I need to
`
`·6· ·check.· I never did estimation or characterization
`
`·7· ·of the performance of the Internet in 1996.· I don't
`
`·8· ·have any data.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · And this article, Exhibit 5, did you read
`
`11· ·the entire article?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Can you go to page 16 of the
`
`14· ·article, the second to the last page.
`
`15· · · · · · · Do you see at the top where it says, "My
`
`16· ·biggest fear is that because the Internet is both so
`
`17· ·poorly managed and so important government agencies
`
`18· ·are going to step in"?
`
`19· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· I want to check that we're on the
`
`21· ·same page.
`
`22· · · · · · · Do you think that that was a reasonable
`
`23· ·fear in the 1990s time frame?
`
`24· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`25· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know.· I don't
`
`28
`
`
`
`·1· ·think that it's based on any statistics or any
`
`·2· ·information.· I don't know.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q· · But you don't dispute that it's a
`
`·5· ·reasonable fear?
`
`·6· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`·7· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure if this is a
`
`·8· ·fear.· And I'm not sure I understand the question.
`
`·9· · · · · · · This is the success of the Internet.· The
`
`10· ·Internet is growing so much, and that's a sign of
`
`11· ·great success.· So I'm not sure I understand --
`
`12· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · Do you have --
`
`14· · · · ·A· · -- the question.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Sorry.· I didn't mean to interrupt.· Are
`
`16· ·you finished?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · You said that the Internet was growing so
`
`19· ·much.· Do you have any statistics to establish how
`
`20· ·much the Internet was growing in the 1996 time
`
`21· ·frame?
`
`22· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Objection to the scope.
`
`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have statistics,
`
`24· ·but the paper is referred to a George Gilbert.· And
`
`25· ·he kept -- and I think it still is -- having
`
`29
`
`
`
`·1· ·information on statistics of the Internet.· And last
`
`·2· ·time that I've seen his statistics regarding this
`
`·3· ·time frame is enormous.· It's huge.· Basically a
`
`·4· ·huge growth of the Internet.
`
`·5· · · · · · · But George Gilbert kept information and
`
`·6· ·statistics about the growth of the Internet. I
`
`·7· ·think this article referred to him directly and
`
`·8· ·contradiction between Bob Metcalfe and George
`
`·9· ·Gilbert.· George Gilbert has a book of this and
`
`10· ·connection about this and talk about this.
`
`11· · · · · · · I'm not sure about your question.· I'm
`
`12· ·really not sure I understand your questions.
`
`13· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · You said there was enormous growth in the
`
`15· ·Internet in 1996; is that correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · Yes, I believe so.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · Do you have any idea of the number of
`
`18· ·users on the Internet in the 1996 time frame?
`
`19· · · · ·A· · Not on top of my head.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · Do you expect it would be around
`
`21· ·50 million?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · I don't know.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Do you think that's a conservative, or --
`
`24· ·estimate, or do you think it was more or less?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · I don't know.· I need to take a look at
`
`30
`
`
`
`·1· ·the data.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · If the data was that it -- in 1996 it
`
`·3· ·went from 10 million to 20 million users, do you
`
`·4· ·consider that to be enormous?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · I don't know.· I need to take a look at
`
`·6· ·specific data of entire picture of growth around
`
`·7· ·these years.· And around these years are the years
`
`·8· ·of the Web, and the Internet grow substantially. I
`
`·9· ·don't have the data.· I don't have the numbers.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · So is it your testimony that George
`
`11· ·Gilbert is somebody who was an expert with respect
`
`12· ·to usage of the Internet in the 1990s time frame?
`
`13· · · · · · · MR. MACE:· Object to form.
`
`14· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure if he was an
`
`15· ·expert or not.· But I believe that he kept some
`
`16· ·statistical data.· I don't have the information in
`
`17· ·front of me.
`
`18· · · · · · · MR. HAREL:· We've been going for an hour.
`
`19· ·How about we take a ten-minute break?
`
`20· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure.
`
`21· · · · · · · (Recess taken.)
`
`22· ·BY MR. HAREL:
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Welcome back.
`
`24· · · · · · · If you can look at your second
`
`25· ·declaration, which is Exhibit 1 at paragraph 6.
`
`31
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · Please review it and let me know when
`
`·3· ·you're finished.
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · Yes, I reviewed this.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · So you applied both your own standard of
`
`·6· ·person of ordinary skill of the art and the one that
`
`·7· ·Dr. Carbonell offered, correct?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Did you consider any other standards for
`
`10· ·the person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · I did my analysis regarding my definition
`
`12· ·of person of ordinary skill in the art, and I
`
`13· ·elaborated and explained why and what the reason,
`
`14· ·rationale and why this is better definition. I
`
`15· ·believe that my definition is better than
`
`16· ·Carbonell's.· But both my opinions will not change
`
`17· ·by looking at Carbonell definiti
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