IPR2016-01155 Ex. 2016
`Windy City Innovations, LLC, Patent Owner 1
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`Windy City Innovations, LLC, Patent Owner 1
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`·1· · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · __________________
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`·3· · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· ·_____________________________________________
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·FACEBOOK INC.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·8· · · · · · WINDY CITY INNOVATIONS, LLC
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`·9· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`11· ·US Patent No. 8,407,356 - Issue Date:· March 26, 2013
`· · ·US Patent No. 8,458,245 - Issue Date:· June 4, 2013
`12· ·US Patent No. 8,694,657 - Issue Date:· April 8, 2014
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`13· · · Title:· REAL TIME COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM
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`14· · ___________________________________________
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`15· · · · · · · Case No. IPR2016-01067
`· · · · · · · · Case No. IPR2016-01141
`16· · · · · · · Case No. IPR2016-01155
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`17· · ___________________________________________
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`18· · · · DEPOSITION of CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
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`19· · · · Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 10:09 a.m.
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`20· · · · · · · · · · Cooley LLP
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`21· · · · · 500 Boylston Street, 14th Floor
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`22· · · · · · · ·Boston, Massachusetts
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`24· ·Reporter:· Jill K. Ruggieri, RPR, RMR, FCRR, CRR
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·3· ·Cooley LLP
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`·4· · · Daniel J. Knauss, Esq.
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`·5· · · 3175 Hanover Street
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`·6· · · Palo Alto, California 94304-1130
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`·7· · · 650.843.5287 | F:· 650.849.7400
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`·8· · · dknauss@cooley.com
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`·9· · · Counsel for petitioner
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`11· ·Brown Rudnick LLP
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`12· · · Enrique Iturralde, Esq.· (telephonically)
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`13· · · Vincent J. Rubino, III, Esq.· (telephonically)
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`14· · · 7 Times Square
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`15· · · New York, New York 10036
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`16· · · 212.209.4800 | F:· 212.209.4801
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`17· · · eiturralde@brownrudnick.com
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`18· · · vrubino@brownrudnick.com
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`19· · · Counsel for patent owner
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`·2
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`·3· ·WITNESS:
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`·5· ·CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
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`·6· · · · Examination by Mr. Iturralde· · · 5
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
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`11· · Exhibit 1· ·Declaration of Christopher M.· · ·8
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`12· · · · · · · · Schmandt
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`13· · Exhibit 2· ·The Sociable Web - Abstract· · · 10
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`14· · Exhibit 3· ·The Second International WWW· · ·16
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`15· · · · · · · · Conference '94 - Mosaic and The
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`16· · · · · · · · Web, Advanced Proceedings,
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`17· · · · · · · · Volume I
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`18· · Exhibit 4· ·Petitioner Microsoft· · · · · · ·23
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`19· · · · · · · · Corporation, Ex. 1020
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`20· · Exhibit 5· ·Boardwatch Magazine article· · · 31
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`21· · Exhibit 6· ·Declaration of Christopher M.· · 33
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`22· · · · · · · · Schmandt in Support of
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`23· · · · · · · · Petitioner's Reply
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`24· · Exhibit 7· ·Boardwatch Magazine article· · · 38
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`·1· ·Exhibit 8· ·US Patent 5,774,668· · · · · · · 44
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`·2· ·Exhibit 9· ·NewsRoom article· · · · · · · · ·51
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`·3· ·Exhibit 10· Declaration of Christopher M.· · 66
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`·4· · · · · · · ·Schmandt in Support of
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`·5· · · · · · · ·Petitioner's Reply
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`·6· ·Exhibit 11· Operating The MajorBBS· · · · · 118
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`·7· ·Exhibit 12· Declaration of Christopher M.· ·122
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`·8· · · · · · · ·Schmandt in Support of
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`·9· · · · · · · ·Petitioner's Reply
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`10· ·Exhibit 13· US Patent 5, 941,947· · · · · · 132
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`·1· · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2
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`·3· · · · · · · · · CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT, a
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`·4· ·witness having been duly sworn, on oath
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`·5· ·deposes and says as follows:
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·8· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
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`·9· · · · Q· · Hi, Mr. Schmandt.· Thank you for
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`10· ·joining us today.
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`11· · · · A· · Good morning.
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`12· · · · Q· · I'm not going to go through the
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`13· ·usual formalities, because this is our second
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`14· ·deposition in this case, but can you tell me
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`15· ·if you have testified or been deposed in any
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`16· ·other cases between the first deposition and
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`17· ·today?
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`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Before you answer
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`19· ·that, Mr. Schmandt, can we just have counsel
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`20· ·identify themselves for the record,
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`21· ·particularly the counsel who is asking the
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`22· ·questions today?
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`23· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Sure.· This is
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`24· ·Enrique Icurralde for Windy City Innovations.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Thank you.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· And with me is
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`·3· ·Vincent J. Rubino.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· And who is
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`·5· ·questioning the witness today?
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`·6· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Enrique
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`·7· ·Iturralde.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Thank you,
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`·9· ·Enrique.
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`10· · · · · · · · · My name is Daniel Knauss from
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`11· ·Cooley LLP, for petitioner, Facebook.
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`12· · · · · · · · · Mr. Schmandt, do you recall
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`13· ·the question you were asked?
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`14· · · · · · · · · THE DEPONENT:· Yes.· I'm
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`15· ·trying to recall the answer.· Do you happen
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`16· ·to know the date of that depo?· I can't
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`17· ·remember.
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`18· ·BY MR. KNAUSS:
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`19· · · · Q· · Let's just say within the last
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`20· ·three months, do you recall if you have been
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`21· ·deposed in any other cases?
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`22· · · · A· · I do recall.· And the answer is no,
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`23· ·I have not.
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`24· · · · Q· · Okay.
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`7
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Mr. Schmandt, other than these
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`·2· ·IPR proceedings, have you participated in any
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`·3· ·other IPR proceeding?
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`·4· · · · A· · Yes, I have.
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`·5· · · · Q· · How many?
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`·6· · · · A· · Well, I think I listed them in my
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`·7· ·first report.· I wouldn't like to answer that
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`·8· ·off the top of my head without thinking about
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`·9· ·it carefully, but if you're comfortable with
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`10· ·an approximate answer, I'll say four or five.
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`11· · · · Q· · Four or five, thank you.
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`12· · · · · · · · · In IPR proceedings, do you
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`13· ·know what constitutes prior art?
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`14· · · · A· · I believe I do.
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`15· · · · Q· · What would you say constitutes
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`16· ·prior art in an inter partes review
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`17· ·proceeding?
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`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`19· ·form.
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`20· · · · A· · Well, first of all, I have to say
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`21· ·that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not applying
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`22· ·the legal standard.· And I understand there
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`23· ·are specific legal standards in terms of what
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`24· ·constitutes a publication and the like that
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`·1· ·may be different between District Court and
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`·2· ·the PTAB, and I'm not fully versed in those.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · But basically, prior art is
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`·4· ·something that was published or publicly
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`·5· ·available prior to the filing date or the
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`·6· ·earliest claimed date of the invention.
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`·7· · · · Q· · So that would include printed
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`·8· ·publications, correct?
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`·9· · · · A· · You mean issued patents?· There's
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`10· ·issued patents and then there's published
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`11· ·applications, and I think both of those would
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`12· ·qualify.
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`13· · · · Q· · Okay.
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`14· · · · · · · · · Is it your understanding that
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`15· ·IPR proceedings are limited to patents and
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`16· ·printed publications?
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`17· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`18· ·form.
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`19· · · · A· · No, not necessarily.
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`20· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
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`21· ·reporter, can you please hand the witness
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`22· ·Exhibit B, as in Bob.
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`23· · · · · · · · · (Discussion off the record.)
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`24· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 1 marked for
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`·1· ·identification.)
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`·2· ·BY MR. KNAUSS:
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`·3· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, do you recognize this
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`·4· ·document?
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`·5· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
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`·6· · · · Q· · And what is this document?
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`·7· · · · A· · It is a declaration that I filed in
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`·8· ·support of the petitioner with respect to the
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`·9· ·'356 patent.
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`10· · · · Q· · Can you please go to paragraph 16
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`11· ·of that document?
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`12· · · · A· · Yes.
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`13· · · · Q· · Can you please review that
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`14· ·paragraph 16 and let me know when you're
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`15· ·ready?
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`16· · · · A· · I'm ready.
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`17· · · · Q· · After reviewing this paragraph, is
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`18· ·prior art limited to patents and printed
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`19· ·publications?
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`20· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`21· ·form.· You may answer.
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`22· · · · A· · Based on the words in here, yes.
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`23· · · · Q· · Sorry, I should ask, is it your
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`24· ·understanding that prior art is limited to
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`·1· ·patents and printed publications?
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`·2· · · · A· · Yes.
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`·3· · · · Q· · Thank you.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · And can you proceed to
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`·5· ·paragraph No. 19, please.
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`·6· · · · A· · Yes.
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`·7· · · · Q· · Is it still your understanding that
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`·8· ·you considered the prior art in this case
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`·9· ·from the perspective of a person of ordinary
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`10· ·skill in the art in April 1996?
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`11· · · · A· · Yes.
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`12· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
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`13· ·reporter, can you please give the witness
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`14· ·Exhibit S.
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`15· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 2 marked for
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`16· ·identification.)
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`17· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
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`18· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, do you recognize this
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`19· ·document?
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`20· · · · A· · I do.
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`21· · · · Q· · You agree that this document is the
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`22· ·Sociable Web exhibit entered in
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`23· ·IPR2016-01067?
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`24· · · · A· · I'm not sure what all those numbers
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`·1· ·refer to.· Which one?
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`·2· · · · Q· · Okay.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · So you agree this is a
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`·4· ·Sociable Web paper that you relied on as
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`·5· ·prior art?
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`·6· · · · A· · Yes.
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`·7· · · · Q· · And at the top of the document, who
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`·8· ·is the author of the document?
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`·9· · · · A· · Judith S. Donath and Niel
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`10· ·Robertson.
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`11· · · · Q· · So in both your original and your
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`12· ·prior declarations, you referred to The
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`13· ·Sociable as prior art, correct?
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`14· · · · A· · That is correct.
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`15· · · · Q· · Based on your understanding of
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`16· ·prior art in IPR proceedings, what type of
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`17· ·prior art is The Sociable Web paper?
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`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`19· ·form.
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`20· · · · A· · It's a printed publication.
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`21· · · · Q· · In your original and reply
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`22· ·declarations, did you also consider The
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`23· ·Sociable Web product or system?
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`24· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`·1· ·form.
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`·2· · · · A· · No, I think that would have been
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`·3· ·inappropriate for these proceedings, and it
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`·4· ·was not a product.
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`·5· · · · Q· · So when you drafted your
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`·6· ·declaration, you did not rely on the printed
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`·7· ·publication and the product itself, correct?
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`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`·9· ·form; compound.
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`10· · · · A· · I relied on the printed
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`11· ·publication.
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`12· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, do you see a
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`13· ·publication or copyright date on the space of
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`14· ·The Sociable Web reference?
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`15· · · · · · · · · So, in other words, on the
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`16· ·first page of the document.
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`17· · · · · · · · · (Deponent read the document.)
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`18· · · · A· · What I see is that the earliest
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`19· ·instance of this document is April 23rd --
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`20· ·no, January -- no, that's on the Wayback
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`21· ·Machine, which was dated later, which was
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`22· ·later.
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`23· · · · · · · · · No, I don't.
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`24· · · · Q· · At the top of the page where it
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`·1· ·says 11 Jan '98, I assume that means
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`·2· ·January 11, 1998, correct?
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`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`·4· ·form.· Lacks foundation.
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`·5· · · · A· · Your guess would be as good as
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`·6· ·mine.· I didn't write that, so I don't know.
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`·7· · · · Q· · What do you think that means?
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`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`·9· ·form.
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`10· · · · A· · I -- so this is a version that's
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`11· ·been printed from the Internet archives, and
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`12· ·I would interpret that as meaning the
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`13· ·earliest archived version was 11 January
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`14· ·1998, which was early in the days of the
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`15· ·Internet archive.· It started around then.
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`16· · · · Q· · So have you ever seen or have you
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`17· ·ever held in your possession a version of
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`18· ·this Sociable Web document that was published
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`19· ·or publicly available before 1998?
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`20· · · · A· · The document was published at the
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`21· ·at Fourth or Sixth -- was it the Fourth
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`22· ·Worldwide Web Conference?· And it was
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`23· ·available at the conference and in the
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`24· ·conference proceedings and online at that
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`·1· ·time, but this is the copy that I have.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · (Pause.)
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`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Hello?
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Hello, we're
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`·5· ·still here.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Sorry, I lost
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`·7· ·you for a second.
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`·8· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
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`·9· · · · Q· · You have no personal knowledge of
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`10· ·that, correct, Mr. Schmandt?
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`11· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`12· ·form.
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`13· · · · A· · Judith Donath at the time was at
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`14· ·the Media Lab, and I knew about this work at
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`15· ·the Media Lab, and I knew that she went to
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`16· ·the conference and gave a talk.
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`17· · · · · · · · · So I would say I do have some
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`18· ·personal knowledge, but I have not relied on
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`19· ·that.
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`20· · · · · · · · · I also --
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`21· · · · Q· · You don't have a copy of the
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`22· ·article, do you, Mr. Schmandt?
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`23· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`24· ·form.
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`·1· · · · A· · This is a copy of the article?
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`·2· · · · Q· · You don't have a copy of the
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`·3· ·article as published in 1996, correct?
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`·4· · · · A· · I think we're getting into an area
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`·5· ·where there may be legal standard questions
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`·6· ·as to what "publication" constitutes.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · I believe there were a
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`·8· ·proceedings printed at the conference.· I do
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`·9· ·not have a copy of those.
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`10· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, for these
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`11· ·proceedings, you're relying on the
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`12· ·declaration of the author, Judith Donath, to
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`13· ·establish that The Sociable Web reference is
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`14· ·indeed prior art, correct?
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`15· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`16· ·form.· You may answer.
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`17· · · · A· · I don't recall whether I depended
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`18· ·on her declaration or not.· I would have to
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`19· ·look in my report for my own declaration to
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`20· ·see whether I cited to that or not.
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`21· · · · Q· · But in your declaration, you're not
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`22· ·providing any independent evidence whether or
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`23· ·not The Sociable Web document is prior art,
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`24· ·correct?
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`·1· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
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`·2· ·form.· Outside the scope.
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`·3· · · · A· · I'm using The Sociable Web document
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`·4· ·as a document in my declaration. I
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`·5· ·considered it to be prior art, and I was
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`·6· ·advised at the time by legal counsel that I
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`·7· ·should consider it -- that I could consider
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`·8· ·it as prior -- as prior art if it was
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`·9· ·relevant to the matter at hand, and I relied
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`10· ·on that legal opinion.
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`11· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, can you confirm that
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`12· ·you've never seen a -- an archive version of
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`13· ·The Sociable Web article that was -- that
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`14· ·predated January 1998?
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`15· · · · A· · I don't know.
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`16· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
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`17· ·reporter, can you please hand Mr. Schmandt
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`18· ·Exhibit X.
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`19· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 3 marked for
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`20· ·identification.)
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`21· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
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`22· · · · Q· · Are you familiar with this exhibit,
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`23· ·Mr. Schmandt?
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`24· · · · A· · No, I don't think I've seen it
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`17
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`·1· ·before.
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`·2· · · · Q· · Can you read the title on the top
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`·3· ·of the page, first page?
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`·4· · · · A· · It says, "The Second International
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`·5· ·WWW Conference '94 - Mosaic and The Web,
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`·6· ·Advanced Proceedings, Volume I."
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`·7· · · · Q· · And at the bottom of the page, it
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`·8· ·shows that this was an exhibit entered by
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`·9· ·Microsoft Corporation as Exhibit 21.
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`10· · · · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`11· · · · A· · I do.
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`12· · · · Q· · Can you please go to page 3 of the
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`13· ·exhibit.· Starts at the top with "Words of
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`14· ·Welcome."
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`15· · · · A· · Yes.· I'm there.
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`16· · · · Q· · Can you please read the third
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`17· ·paragraph from the bottom of the page?
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`18· ·Starts with "The papers listed."
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`19· · · · A· · "The papers listed in the table of
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`20· ·contents reflect the presentations given at
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`21· ·the conference.· The papers printed in this
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`22· ·document are indicated by a page number in
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`23· ·the right-hand margin.· The papers with a
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`24· ·bullet" -- dot -- are -- "in the right-hand
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`·1· ·margin are not included in this document.
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`·2· ·All conference" --
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`·3· · · · Q· · That's all.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· You asked him to
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`·5· ·read the whole paragraph -- excuse me,
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`·6· ·counsel.· You asked him to read the entire
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`·7· ·paragraph.· That's not where the paragraph
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`·8· ·ends.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · THE DEPONENT:· So let me
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`10· ·finish.
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`11· · · · · · · · · "All conference papers" --
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`12· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Withdraw the
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`13· ·question.
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`14· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· It's withdrawn.
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`15· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
`
`16· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, can you read the
`
`17· ·first two sentences of that paragraph,
`
`18· ·the third from the bottom?
`
`19· · · · A· · I think I just did.
`
`20· · · · Q· · Please read them again.
`
`21· · · · A· · "The paper listed in the table of
`
`22· ·contents reflect the presentations given at
`
`23· ·the conference.· The papers printed in this
`
`24· ·document are indicated by a page number in
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·the right-hand margin.· Papers with a bullet
`
`·2· ·in the right-hand margin are not included in
`
`·3· ·this document.· All conference papers" --
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Thank you.
`
`·5· · · · A· · -- "are available in the electronic
`
`·6· ·proceedings" --
`
`·7· · · · Q· · Thank you, Mr. Schmandt.· That was
`
`·8· ·the --
`
`·9· · · · A· · May I finish, please?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · -- "which can be accessed via
`
`11· ·the conference home page at the URL listed
`
`12· ·below.· Planning sessions and tutorials are
`
`13· ·not included in the proceedings."
`
`14· · · · · · · · · I'm finished now.· Thank you.
`
`15· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, in preparation for
`
`16· ·your declaration, did you visit the link at
`
`17· ·the bottom of the page?
`
`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`19· ·form.
`
`20· · · · A· · I'm sorry, what was the question?
`
`21· ·Did I visit the link?
`
`22· · · · · · · · · I'm not sure.· I can't recall.
`
`23· · · · Q· · Do you know if this is still a
`
`24· ·valid link?
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Lacks foundation.
`
`·2· · · · A· · In order to answer that, I would
`
`·3· ·have to try to go there.· I don't know.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Sitting here today, you don't have
`
`·5· ·a valid copy -- a valid archive version of
`
`·6· ·that link at the -- strike the question.
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · Sitting here today,
`
`·8· ·Mr. Schmandt, do you have a valid archived
`
`·9· ·version of the document at that link?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`11· ·form.
`
`12· · · · A· · I'm sorry; I'm not clear.· I don't
`
`13· ·understand exactly what you're asking me.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · You're asking me about the
`
`15· ·link?· The document?· I'm -- I'm not clear,
`
`16· ·sorry.
`
`17· · · · Q· · You don't have an archived version
`
`18· ·of this website, right?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`20· ·form.· Outside the scope.
`
`21· · · · A· · Oh, that website?· No, I do not.
`
`22· ·There may be one, but I don't have it.
`
`23· · · · Q· · So you didn't review this in
`
`24· ·preparation for preparing your declaration,
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·correct?
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Outside the
`
`·3· ·scope.
`
`·4· · · · A· · I'm sorry, what does the "this"
`
`·5· ·refer to in the question?
`
`·6· · · · Q· · The contents of that link.
`
`·7· · · · A· · I don't recall.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, can you please
`
`·9· ·proceed to exhibit page 3 -- I'm sorry,
`
`10· ·exhibit page 6.
`
`11· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · Q· · Do you see the entry for The
`
`13· ·Sociable Web in this table of contents?
`
`14· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`15· · · · Q· · And this entry identifies -- this
`
`16· ·entry for The Sociable Web identifies Judith
`
`17· ·Donath and Niel Robertson as the authors of
`
`18· ·The Sociable Web, correct?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`20· ·form.
`
`21· · · · A· · Yes, although I would say there
`
`22· ·appears to be a typo in Robertson's name.
`
`23· · · · Q· · And on the right-hand margin,
`
`24· ·with -- where there's supposed to be a page
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·number, what do you see?
`
`·2· · · · A· · There's a dot.
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·4· ·form.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · Based on what you read earlier on
`
`·6· ·page 3 of the exhibit, does that dot indicate
`
`·7· ·that The Sociable Web was not published with
`
`·8· ·this document?
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`10· ·form.· Lacks foundation; outside the scope.
`
`11· · · · A· · The dot indicates that at the time
`
`12· ·that this document, which calls itself the
`
`13· ·Advanced Proceedings, was printed, I'm
`
`14· ·talking about conventional printing, like
`
`15· ·offset press, then at that time, The Sociable
`
`16· ·Web paper would have been available only
`
`17· ·through this -- through the online version at
`
`18· ·the link that they gave on that page.
`
`19· · · · Q· · And you did not check that link,
`
`20· ·correct?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Asked and
`
`22· ·answered.
`
`23· · · · A· · I don't recall whether I did or
`
`24· ·not.
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · You didn't talk about this link or
`
`·2· ·the contents of this document in your
`
`·3· ·declaration, correct?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Asked and
`
`·5· ·answered.
`
`·6· · · · A· · I'm sorry, I'm not sure I
`
`·7· ·understand your question.· It sounded
`
`·8· ·compound to me.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · Can you please answer the question?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`11· ·form.· He just told you he didn't understand
`
`12· ·it.
`
`13· · · · A· · Based on your question as I read
`
`14· ·it, my answer would be no.
`
`15· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, did you -- did you
`
`16· ·review Ms. Donath's transcript of her
`
`17· ·deposition in this case in preparing for your
`
`18· ·reply declaration?
`
`19· · · · A· · I don't recall.
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
`
`21· ·reporter, can you please hand Mr. Schmandt
`
`22· ·Exhibit W.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 4 marked for
`
`24· ·identification.)
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
`
`·2· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, are you familiar with
`
`·3· ·this exhibit?
`
`·4· · · · A· · I'm not certain I've seen it
`
`·5· ·before.
`
`·6· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, can you confirm this
`
`·7· ·Exhibit 1020 entered by Microsoft Corporation
`
`·8· ·in this IPR proceeding?
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Lacks foundation.
`
`10· · · · A· · Well, that's what it says at the
`
`11· ·bottom.· I can't confirm by other means.
`
`12· · · · Q· · Thank you.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
`
`14· ·reporter, can you please hand Mr. Schmandt
`
`15· ·Exhibit B?
`
`16· · · · Q· · Actually, Mr. Schmandt, you should
`
`17· ·already have Exhibit B.
`
`18· · · · A· · You want me to turn to it, please?
`
`19· · · · Q· · Yes, please.
`
`20· · · · A· · This is what we called Exhibit 1?
`
`21· · · · Q· · That's correct.
`
`22· · · · A· · Okay, I have it.
`
`23· · · · Q· · Please proceed to paragraph 159 and
`
`24· ·review it, please.
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · (Deponent read the document.)
`
`·2· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Is it your position that the
`
`·4· ·Internet limitations are obvious because the
`
`·5· ·internet connectivity option was available to
`
`·6· ·the public?
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·8· ·form.· Outside the scope.
`
`·9· · · · A· · No, it is my opinion that they were
`
`10· ·obvious because of -- at least because of the
`
`11· ·published article that describes the Internet
`
`12· ·connectivity option.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · It's also my opinion, although
`
`14· ·I'm not sure I stated it in my declaration,
`
`15· ·that it would have been obvious given the
`
`16· ·fact that even before the Internet
`
`17· ·connectivity option, MajorBBS worked on
`
`18· ·Novell networks, which could have at the time
`
`19· ·been bridged to the Internet with well-known
`
`20· ·technology.
`
`21· · · · Q· · So as part of your analysis for
`
`22· ·your declaration, you didn't consider whether
`
`23· ·the Internet connectivity option was
`
`24· ·available, correct?
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·2· ·form; vague.
`
`·3· · · · A· · I'm not sure what you mean by
`
`·4· ·"available."· I think we have evidence it
`
`·5· ·existed, because another party describes use
`
`·6· ·of it.· But whether or not it existed is not
`
`·7· ·relevant to my analysis.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Can you consider whether the
`
`·9· ·Internet connectivity option was available to
`
`10· ·a person of ordinary skill in the art in
`
`11· ·April 1996?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`13· ·form.
`
`14· · · · Q· · As part of your analysis in
`
`15· ·preparing for your declaration?
`
`16· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`17· ·form; vague.
`
`18· · · · A· · So we're talking about this word
`
`19· ·"available."· I have not discussed
`
`20· ·availability of the product.· I don't know
`
`21· ·whether the product ever shipped or not, and
`
`22· ·I don't think it particularly matters.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · What I think is that the
`
`24· ·article that I cited to about the Internet
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· ·connectivity option teaches how to connect
`
`·2· ·MajorBBS to the Internet.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, can you please read
`
`·4· ·the first sentence of paragraph 159.
`
`·5· · · · A· · "Thus, at least by September 1994
`
`·6· ·and perhaps earlier, a person of ordinary
`
`·7· ·skill in the art would have known that an
`
`·8· ·add-on option for Internet connectivity in
`
`·9· ·The MajorBBS system was available from the
`
`10· ·supplier of The MajorBBS system."
`
`11· · · · Q· · So is it your position now that
`
`12· ·this availability is no longer relevant?
`
`13· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`14· ·form.
`
`15· · · · A· · I have not relied on the
`
`16· ·availability for my analysis.· It's relevant.
`
`17· ·It's germane to the case.
`
`18· · · · Q· · So you just put it in your
`
`19· ·declaration, but you're not relying on it,
`
`20· ·correct?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`22· ·form.· Vague.
`
`23· · · · A· · I'm not relying on the existence of
`
`24· ·a product.· I am relying on the publication,
`
`28
`
`
`
`·1· ·which describes the product.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · So you're not relying on this
`
`·3· ·paragraph of your declaration in your
`
`·4· ·analysis, correct?
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·6· ·form.· Misstates testimony; asked and
`
`·7· ·answered.
`
`·8· · · · A· · I said I'm relying on the -- I
`
`·9· ·mean, to say I'm relying on my declaration
`
`10· ·would be circular.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · I'm relying on the publication
`
`12· ·that we've been calling an Internet
`
`13· ·connectivity option which describes a
`
`14· ·product.
`
`15· · · · Q· · So are you disavowing this
`
`16· ·paragraph, Dr. Schmandt -- Mr. Schmandt?
`
`17· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Asked and
`
`18· ·answered; badgering.
`
`19· · · · A· · I'm sorry, what's the question?· Am
`
`20· ·I disavowing --
`
`21· · · · Q· · Are you disavowing --
`
`22· · · · A· · No.
`
`23· · · · Q· · Are you disavowing this paragraph,
`
`24· ·paragraph 159?
`
`29
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A· · No, I am not.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · So you still believe that
`
`·3· ·availability is relevant to your analysis,
`
`·4· ·correct?
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·6· ·form.· Asked and answered; badgering.
`
`·7· · · · A· · I'm relying on an article.· The
`
`·8· ·article describes how to -- how this product
`
`·9· ·works, how to connect MajorBBS to the
`
`10· ·Internet.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · It discusses -- seems to me to
`
`12· ·verify the existence of the product, at least
`
`13· ·as usable software, because the authors of
`
`14· ·the article discuss actually testing, doing a
`
`15· ·test with it.
`
`16· · · · Q· · So, Mr. Schmandt, paragraph 159 is
`
`17· ·relevant to your analysis, correct?
`
`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Asked and
`
`19· ·answered.
`
`20· · · · A· · It's in my declaration, so it must
`
`21· ·be relevant.
`
`22· · · · · · · · · The point of the paragraph is
`
`23· ·to discuss this article.· If somebody knew
`
`24· ·that this product existed because they read
`
`30
`
`
`
`·1· ·this article, they would have access to the
`
`·2· ·full contents of the article, which basically
`
`·3· ·is a roadmap as to how Galacticomm
`
`·4· ·accomplished connecting MajorBBS to the
`
`·5· ·Internet.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · I will -- let me add to that
`
`·7· ·answer by saying, there are a number of other
`
`·8· ·paragraphs in the declaration that say
`
`·9· ·essentially this.
`
`10· · · · Q· · And all of those paragraphs are
`
`11· ·relevant to your declaration, right?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`13· ·form; vague.
`
`14· · · · A· · All paragraphs in my declaration
`
`15· ·are relevant to my declaration by their
`
`16· ·existence.
`
`17· · · · Q· · Meaning that you don't put
`
`18· ·irrelevant declaration paragraphs in your
`
`19· ·declaration, correct?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to form.
`
`21· · · · A· · I'm sorry, I didn't understand
`
`22· ·that.· You broke up a little bit there.
`
`23· · · · Q· · You do not put irrelevant
`
`24· ·paragraphs into your declaration, correct?
`
`31
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·2· ·form.
`
`·3· · · · A· · I certainly try not to.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
`
`·5· ·reporter, can you please hand Mr. Schmandt
`
`·6· ·Exhibit R.
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 5 marked for
`
`·8· ·identification.)
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · (Discussion off the record.)
`
`10· · · · · · · · · (Recess.)
`
`11· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
`
`12· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · Mr. Schmandt, do you have
`
`14· ·Exhibit R in front of you?
`
`15· · · · A· · I have Exhibit 5, the Boardwatch
`
`16· ·Magazine Worldgroup article.
`
`17· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · Can you please read the title
`
`19· ·of this article on the first page?
`
`20· · · · A· · Technology Front by Jim Thompson,
`
`21· ·Western News Service, Galacticomm Unveils
`
`22· ·Worldgroup:· AOL on a PC.
`
`23· · · · Q· · On the first page of the exhibit,
`
`24· ·it reads "Microsoft Corporation
`
`32
`
`
`
`·1· ·Exhibit 1015," correct?
`
`·2· · · · A· · It does.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Page 1 of 13?
`
`·4· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · Can you please go to page 2
`
`·7· ·and tell me what the -- please go to page 2
`
`·8· ·and tell me what the date of this publication
`
`·9· ·is.
`
`10· · · · A· · It says March 1995.· Excuse me.
`
`11· · · · Q· · Please proceed to page 7 of the
`
`12· ·exhibit, which is page 57 of the article.
`
`13· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`14· · · · Q· · Please review column 1,
`
`15· ·paragraph 4.
`
`16· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · Would you like me to read it?
`
`18· · · · Q· · If you review -- did you -- do you
`
`19· ·rely on this paragraph in your analysis?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · Strike the question.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · Did you rely on this paragraph
`
`22· ·for your analysis in your reply declaration?
`
`23· · · · A· · I don't recall.· I'd have to look
`
`24· ·at the -- sorry, at the reply declaration?
`
`33
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · Which declaration are you
`
`·2· ·referring to?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Court
`
`·4· ·reporter, please hand Mr. Schmandt Exhibit A.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 6 marked for
`
`·6· ·identification.)
`
`·7· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Are you familiar with this
`
`·9· ·declaration, Mr. Schmandt?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes, I am.
`
`11· · · · Q· · And is it true that you read this
`
`12· ·declaration?
`
`13· · · · A· · Excuse me, are you asking me if I
`
`14· ·read the declaration?· Was that the question,
`
`15· ·sir?
`
`16· · · · Q· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · Is this your declaration, sir?
`
`18· · · · A· · Yes, it is.
`
`19· · · · Q· · And can you confirm that the front
`
`20· ·page of this declaration reads, "Declaration
`
`21· ·of Christopher Schmandt in the Support of
`
`22· ·Petitioners Reply?
`
`23· · · · A· · Yes, it does.
`
`24· · · · Q· · And the case number is IPR
`
`34
`
`
`
`·1· ·2016-01067?
`
`·2· · · · A· · Yes, and there's another case
`
`·3· ·number listed as well.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · And that's IPR 2017-00624,
`
`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · A· · That is correct.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · And in addition to this
`
`10· ·declaration, you wrote two other declarations
`
`11· ·for Microsoft that would be considered
`
`12· ·revised declarations, correct?
`
`13· · · · A· · Yes, that is correct.
`
`14· · · · Q· · And those would be for IPR
`
`15· ·2016-01141 and 01155, correct?
`
`16· · · · A· · I'm sorry, I don't recall the
`
`17· ·numbers.
`
`18· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`19· · · · · · · · · Mr. Schmandt, can you return
`
`20· ·back to Exhibit R, which is the Boardwatch
`
`21· ·Galacticomm Unveil Worldgroup article.
`
`22· · · · A· · Yes, that's the one we're calling
`
`23· ·Exhibit 5 in this room.
`
`24· · · · Q· · Right.
`
`35
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · And can you please go back to
`
`·3· ·page 57, column 1, paragraph 4.
`
`·4· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · So my question before was, did you
`
`·6· ·rely on this paragraph for your analysis in
`
`·7· ·your reply declaration?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. KNAUSS:· Object to the
`
`·9· ·form.
`
`10· · · · A· · I would have to take a look at the
`
`11· ·declaration to refresh my memory on that.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · Do you want me to do that?
`
`13· · · · Q· · Mr. Schmandt, in paragraph -- in
`
`14· ·the paragraph that I directed to you --
`
`15· ·directed you to, which is column 1,
`
`16· ·paragraph 4, the last sentence reads,
`
`17· ·"Galacticomm Internet connectivity option
`
`18· ·module will reportedly pr
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