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`March 5, 2018
`(?KL25FA
`1:00 p.m.
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`Pennsylvania.
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`Transcript of telephonic proceedings
` "?9@K?=M<>{<PML>9=KM?>K:=9@
`held before the Administrative Patent Judges
`- LP:N{>?<L&:Q=9=@<?<=C<9<I|:@
`SHERIDAN K. SNEDDEN, TINA E. HULSE and
`1 %/#'!$& )4% #$$# 5"! &#4/0%#9:
`CHRISTOPHER G. PAULRAJ, reported by GAIL
`2 ,/'!%"*/#'E4&0'&I5?M>?<:NJE&!0
`INGHRAM VERBANO, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
`8 ! E/'&(6#'.& *5'=@<?:$=MP>Q<'M>?<?5
`Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified
`; ,?<={=:'P<=Q'M>?<?5,?<={=:
`Shorthand Reporter—CA (No. 8635) and Notary
`A %L>?<L9:'M>?<?B,&H >4A8-279: ><?J
`Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`D |NP=K=99:{>?<L,>QQ>9GP<L>{
`
`F 99@JPC9=4
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`877-702-9580
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`TELEPHONIC APPEARANCES:
` "#0#/* !,&#&'& ,#%O
`
`- 
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`Attorneys for Petitioner Mylan Pharmaceuticals:
`1 &<<>?9J@{>?<=<=>9?(JP9L?QK|<=KP@O
`WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
`2 }!0%* %* %! !E**$'!,/~'*%&"!
`1700 K Street NW
`8 ;FF)%<?< }
`Washington, DC 20006
`; }@L=9<>95$,FFF8
`RICHARD TORCZON, ESQ.
`A .3O'!,/&'$"*',* 5#%€4
`JAD MILLS, ESQ.
`D I&$(!00%5#%€4
`STEVE PARMELEE, ESQ.
`F %"#6#&'(#0##5#%€4
`
` 
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` 
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`- B9:B
`
`1 
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`2 
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`CHARLES CURTIS, ESQ.
`
`PERKINS COIE
`8 #')! %,*!#
`700 Thirteenth Street NW
`; ;FF"L=?<9<L%<?< }
`Washington, DC 20005
`A }@L=9<>95$,FFF2
`BRANDON WHITE, ESQ.
`D .3O.'& $* }/!"#5#%€4
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`F ,/&'0#%,'"!%5#%€4
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`TELEPHONIC APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
` "#0#/* !,&#&'& ,#%H,>9<:7O
`
`- 
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`Attorneys for Petitioner Teva Pharmaceuticals
`1 &<<>?9J@{>?<=<=>9?"CL?QK|<=KP@
`USA,
`INC.:
`2 %&5! ,4O
`CARLSON, CASPERS, VANDENBURGH & LINDQUIST
`8 ,&'0%* 5,&%#'%56& $# .'E/~0! $€!%"
`225 South Sixth Street
`; 2%>|<L%=‚<L%<?<
`Suite 3200
`A %|=<-FF
`Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`D (=99M>P=@5(=99@><221F
`GARY SPEIER, ESQ.
`F .3OE&'3%#!#'5#%€4
`gspeier@carlsoncaspers.com
` @M=?ƒK?P@>9K@M?@4K>Q
`
` 
`
`Attorneys for Allergan Patent Owner:
`- &<<>?9J@{>?&PP?9<9<*G9?O
`FISH & RICHARDSON
`1 +!%/~'!,/&'$%*
`3200 RBC Plaza
`2 -FF'.,P„
`60 South Sixth Street
`8 8F%>|<L%=‚<L%<?<
`Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`; (=99M>P=@5(=99@><221F
`MICHAEL KANE, ESQ.
`A .3O(!,/&#0)& #5#%€4
`
`D …9ƒ{?4K>Q
`
`kane@fr.com
`
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`TELEPHONIC APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
` "#0#/* !,&#&'& ,#%H,>9<:7O
`
`2
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`Attorneys for Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe Patent
`1 &<<>?9J@{>?%=9<'=@(>LG…"?=N<9<
`Owners:
`2 *G9?@O
`SHORE CHAN DEPUMPO LLP
`8 %/*'#,/& $#(*00
`901 Main Street, Suite 3300
`; DF(=9%<?<5%|=<--FF
`Dallas, Texas 75202
`A $PP@5"‚@;2F
`BY:
`MICHAEL W. SHORE, ESQ.
`D .3O(!,/&#0}4%/*'#5#%€4
`mshore@shorechan.com
`F Q@L>?ƒ@L>?KL94K>Q
`CHRISTOPHER EVANS, ESQ.
` ,/'!%"*/#'#6& %5#%€4
`cevans@shorechan.com
` KC9@ƒ@L>?KL94K>Q
`
`- 
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`ADMINISTRATIVE PATENT JUDGES:
`1 &$(! !%"'&"!6#&"# "I$E#%O
`SHERIDAN K. SNEDDEN
`2 %/#'!$& )4% #$$#
`TINA E. HULSE
`8 "! &#4/0%#
`
`; ,/'!%"*/#'E4&0'&I
`
`CHRISTOPHER G. PAULRAJ
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`A 
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`8
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: Good afternoon.
` I$E#% #$$# OE>>:{<?9>>94
`This is Judge Snedden.
`I have with me on
`- "L=@=@I|:%9::94!LCG=<LQ>9
`the line Judges Hulse and Paulraj. This
`1 <LP=9I|:@/|P@9:|P?‡4"L=@
`is a teleconference for IPR2016—00127,
`2 =@<PK>9{?9K{>?!'F8BFF;5
`01128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132.
`8 FA5D5-F5-5-4
`Who do I have on the line for
`; }L>:>!LC>9<LP=9{>?
`Petitioners?
`A <=<=>9?@ˆ
`MR. TORCZON:
`For Petitioners you
`D ('4"*',* O+>?<=<=>9?@J>|
`have Richard Torczon, and I'm not sure who
`F LC'=KL?:">?K„>959:!Q9><@|?GL>
`else is on the line.
` P@=@>9<LP=94
`MR. SPEIER: This is Gary Speier.
` ('4%#!#'O"L=@=@E?J%M=?4
`MR. WHITE: This is Brandon White
`- ('4}/!"#O"L=@=@.?9:>9}L=<
`and Chuck Curtis of Perkins Coie on behalf
`1 9:,L|K…,|?<=@>{?…=9@,>=>9NLP{
`of Mylan.
`2 >{(JP94
`MR. PARMELEE: You also have Steve
`8 ('4&'(#0##O3>|P@>LC%<C
`Parmelee and Jad Mills on behalf of Mylan.
`; ?QP9:I:(=PP@>9NLP{>{(JP94
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: And Mr. Parmelee,
`A I$E#% #$$# O&9:(?4?QP5
`will you be speaking today for
`D G=PPJ>|N@M…=9<>:J{>?
`Petitioners?
`F <=<=>9?@ˆ
`MR. PARMELEE: That will be
` ('4&'(#0##O"L<G=PPN
`Mr. Torczon.
` (?4">?K„>94
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: Mr. Torczon. Very
`- I$E#% #$$# O(?4">?K„>946?J
`good.
`1 >>:4
`
`
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`And who do we have on the line for
`2 &9:GL>:>GLC>9<LP=9{>?
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`Patent Owners?
` <9<*G9?@ˆ
`MR. SHORE: This is Michael Shore
`- ('4%/*'#O"L=@=@(=KLP%L>?
`and Chris Evans representing the Saint
`1 9:,L?=@#C9@?M?@9<=9<L%=9<
`Regis Mohawk Tribe Patent Owners.
`2 '=@(>LG…"?=N<9<*G9?@4
`MR. KANE: And this is Michael Kane
`8 ('4)& #O&9:<L=@=@(=KLP)9
`from Fish & Richardson representing
`; {?>Q+=@L~'=KL?:@>9?M?@9<=9
`Allergan.
`A &PP?94
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: Okay. Welcome.
`I'd
`D I$E#% #$$# O*…J4}PK>Q4!:
`like to begin with a few housekeeping
`F P=…<>N=9G=<L{GL>|@…M=9
`items.
` =<Q@4
`Per our order of August 11th,
` ?>|?>?:?>{&||@<<L5
`2017,
`the date for oral argument in these
`- F;5<L:<{>?>?P?|Q9<=9<L@
`cases was previously scheduled for
`1 K@@G@M?C=>|@PJ@KL:|P:{>?
`September 15th, 2017. And upon granting
`2 %M<QN?2<L5F;4&9:|M>9?9<=9
`the Tribe authorization to file a motion
`8 <L"?=N|<L>?=„<=>9<>{=PQ><=>9
`to terminate on the basis of lack of
`; <><?Q=9<>9<LN@=@>{PK…>{
`jurisdiction based on tribal immunity, we
`A ‡|?=@:=K<=>9N@:>9<?=NP=QQ|9=<J5G
`postponed that hearing.
`D M>@<M>9:<L<L?=94
`And since,
`though, we've issued a
`F &9:@=9K5<L>|L5GC=@@|:
`decision denying the Tribe's motion to
` :K=@=>9:9J=9<L"?=N@Q><=>9<>
`terminate, and so we must now find a new
` <?Q=9<59:@>GQ|@<9>G{=9:9G
`date for Due Date 7, which,
`to be clear,
`- :<{>?$|$<;5GL=KL5<>NKP?5
`is the date for oral argument, as set
`1 =@<L:<{>?>?P?|Q9<5@@<
`forth in our scheduling order.
`2 {>?<L=9>|?@KL:|P=9>?:?4
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`In our latest order, we suggested
` !9>|?P<@<>?:?5G@|@<:
`April 3rd as a new date for oral
`- &M?=P-?:@9G:<{>?>?P
`argument. We offered the parties the
`1 ?|Q9<4}>{{?:<LM?<=@<L
`opportunity to confer on the issue of a
`2 >MM>?<|9=<J<>K>9{?>9<L=@@|>{
`new date for Due Date 7 and to suggest
`8 9G:<{>?$|$<;9:<>@|@<
`alternative dates for the proposed date of
`; P<?9<=C:<@{>?<LM?>M>@::<>{
`April 3rd. And hearing nothing from the
`A &M?=P-?:4&9:L?=99><L=9{?>Q<L
`parties on this issue, we do intend to set
`D M?<=@>9<L=@=@@|5G:>=9<9:<>@<
`Due Date 7 for April 3rd.
`F $|$<;{>?&M?=P-?:4
`MR. TORCZON: Excuse me, Your Honor.
` ('4"*',* O#‚K|@Q53>|?/>9>?4
`This is Richard Torczon for the
` "L=@=@'=KL?:">?K„>9{>?<L
`Petitioner.
`- <=<=>9?4
`We actually did send in a responsive
`1 }K<|PPJ:=:@9:=9?@M>9@=C
`email on the deadline date explaining that
`2 Q=P>9<L::P=9:<‚MP=9=9<L<
`we had told the Patent Owner that Mylan
`8 GL:<>P:<L<9<*G9?<L<(JP9
`was prepared to do oral argument on the
`; G@M?M?:<>:>>?P?|Q9<>9<L
`date the Board proposed and offered to
`A :<<L.>?:M?>M>@:9:>{{?:<>
`talk about other dates if it was
`D <P…N>|<><L?:<@={=<G@
`convenient.
`F K>9C9=9<4
`We never received a response from
` }9C??K=C:?@M>9@{?>Q
`the Patent Owner.
`So in absence of a
` <L<9<*G9?4%>=9N@9K>{
`response, we just sent in an email
`- ?@M>9@5G‡|@<@9<=99Q=P
`explaining that to the Board.
`1 ‚MP=9=9<L<<><L.>?:4
`So just for the record,
`I wanted to
`2 %>‡|@<{>?<L?K>?:5!G9<:<>
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`be clear that the Petitioners did comply
` NKP?<L<<L<=<=>9?@:=:K>QMPJ
`with the order but were also comfortable
`- G=<L<L>?:?N|<G?P@>K>Q{>?<NP
`with the date the Board is proposing.
`1 G=<L<L:<<L.>?:=@M?>M>@=94
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: Oh, understood.
`2 I$E#% #$$# O*L5|9:?@<>>:4
`And —— yeah,
`so we did receive that email.
`8 &9:BBJL5@>G:=:?K=C<L<Q=P4
`Apologies for not indicating that.
`; &M>P>=@{>?9><=9:=K<=9<L<4
`Okay. All right.
`So just to
`A *…J4&PP?=L<4%>‡|@<<>
`continue, and —— very well.
`D K>9<=9|59:BBC?JGPP4
`And we note that the parties
`F &9:G9><<L<<LM?<=@
`previously have requested oral hearing in
` M?C=>|@PJLC?‰|@<:>?PL?=9=9
`the motions filed July 20th, 2017, and
` <LQ><=>9@{=P:I|PJF<L5F;59:
`those motions were granted. And so, based
`- <L>@Q><=>9@G??9<:4&9:@>5N@:
`on that, we intend to hold oral argument.
`1 >9<L<5G=9<9:<>L>P:>?P?|Q9<4
`Neither party has rescinded those
`2  =<L?M?<JL@?@K=9::<L>@
`requests,
`so we are going to assume that
`8 ?‰|@<@5@>G?>=9<>@@|Q<L<
`they are still good and move forward with
`; <LJ?@<=PP>>:9:Q>C{>?G?:G=<L
`the plan to hold oral argument on
`A <LMP9<>L>P:>?P?|Q9<>9
`April 3rd.
`D &M?=P-?:4
`Now, we are aware that Allergan and
`F  >G5G?G?<L<&PP?99:
`the Tribe have filed a combined Notice of
` <L"?=NLC{=P:K>QN=9: ><=K>{
`Appeal to the United States Court of
` &MMP<><L9=<:%<<@,>|?<>{
`Appeals for the Federal Circuit appealing
`- &MMP@{>?<L+:?P,=?K|=<MMP=9
`our decision denying the Tribe's motion to
`1 >|?:K=@=>9:9J=9<L"?=N@Q><=>9<>
`terminate.
`2 <?Q=9<4
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`We also received an email from Chris
` }P@>?K=C:9Q=P{?>Q,L?=@
`Evans, counsel for the Tribe, on
`- #C9@5K>|9@P{>?<L"?=N5>9
`February 28th, 2018, and that email
`1 +N?|?JA<L5FA59:<L<Q=P
`contains no request for a teleconference.
`2 K>9<=9@9>?‰|@<{>?<PK>9{?9K4
`Does not indicate that the Tribe conferred
`8 $>@9><=9:=K<<L<<L"?=NK>9{??:
`with Petitioners.
`It includes improper
`; G=<L<=<=>9?@4!<=9KP|:@=QM?>M?
`argument on the issue of whether the Board
`A ?|Q9<>9<L=@@|>{GL<L?<L.>?:
`has jurisdiction to continue these
`D L@‡|?=@:=K<=>9<>K>9<=9|<L@
`proceedings until after the Federal
`F M?>K:=9@|9<=P{<?<L+:?P
`Circuit has resolved the appeal. And that
` ,=?K|=<L@?@>PC:<LMMP4&9:<L<
`email also contains a statement that no
` Q=PP@>K>9<=9@@<<Q9<<L<9>
`hearing date should be set.
`- L?=9:<@L>|P:N@<4
`Now,
`in view of this email, we sent
`1  >G5=9C=G>{<L=@Q=P5G@9<
`our March lst email to schedule this
`2 >|?(?KL@<Q=P<>@KL:|P<L=@
`teleconference. And I should add that I
`8 <PK>9{?9K4&9:!@L>|P:::<L<!
`also reviewed —— we also received an email
`; P@>?C=G:BBGP@>?K=C:9Q=P
`from Mr. Parmelee and understand that
`A {?>Q(?4?QP9:|9:?@<9:<L<
`Petitioners disagree with the Tribe that
`D <=<=>9?@:=@?G=<L<L"?=N<L<
`the effect of its Notice of Appeal is to
`F <L{{K<>{=<@ ><=K>{&MMP=@<>
`divest the Board of jurisdiction over
` :=C@<<L.>?:>{‡|?=@:=K<=>9>C?
`these cases.
` <L@K@@4
`Now, given this disagreement between
`-  >G5=C9<L=@:=@?Q9<N<G9
`the parties, we are inclined to invite the
`1 <LM?<=@5G?=9KP=9:<>=9C=<<L
`parties to brief the issue on our
`2 M?<=@<>N?={<L=@@|>9>|?
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`continued jurisdiction and the application
` K>9<=9|:‡|?=@:=K<=>99:<LMMP=K<=>9
`of the collateral order doctrine to these
`- >{<LK>PP<?P>?:?:>K<?=9<><L@
`proceedings.
`1 M?>K:=9@4
`But let me stop there.
`I would like
`2 .|<P<Q@<>M<L?4!G>|P:P=…
`to hear from the parties on this issue,
`8 <>L?{?>Q<LM?<=@>9<L=@=@@|5
`and we'll let Patent Owner begin if ——
`; 9:GPPP<<9<*G9?N=9={BB
`MR. SHORE: All right. Your Honor,
`A ('4%/*'#O&PP?=L<43>|?/>9>?5
`I'm going to pick up the phone and go off
`D !Q>=9<>M=K…|M<LML>99:>>{{
`speaker while I'm talking, because there's
`F @M…?GL=P!Q<P…=95NK|@<L?@
`a court reporter on.
`I want to make sure
` K>|?<?M>?<?>94!G9<<>Q…@|?
`there's no feedback or any problem with
` <L?@9>{:NK…>?9JM?>NPQG=<L
`the recording.
`- <L?K>?:=94
`So this is Michael Shore on behalf
`1 %><L=@=@(=KLP%L>?>9NLP{
`of the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe.
`The
`2 >{<L%=9<'=@(>LG…"?=N4"L
`Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe believes the
`8 %=9<'=@(>LG…"?=NNP=C@<L
`Notices of Appeal divest the Panel of
`;  ><=K@>{&MMP:=C@<<L9P>{
`jurisdiction to continue the IPRs.
`A ‡|?=@:=K<=>9<>K>9<=9|<L!'@4
`This is what is known as a Forsyth
`D "L=@=@GL<=@…9>G9@+>?@J<L
`appeal. And the case on point is Mitchell
`F MMP4&9:<LK@>9M>=9<=@(=<KLPP
`vs. Forsyth, 472 US 511 Supreme Court
` C@4+>?@J<L51;%2%|M?Q,>|?<
`case. And as stated in Apostol versus
` K@4&9:@@<<:=9&M>@<>PC?@|@
`Gallion, a 7th Circuit case applying
`- EPP=>95;<L,=?K|=<K@MMPJ=9
`Forsyth, a Forsyth appeal is one where the
`1 +>?@J<L5+>?@J<LMMP=@>9GL?<L
`issue on appeal is quote, whether the case
`2 =@@|>9MMP=@‰|><5GL<L?<LK@
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` -†2†FA
`should be tried, closed quote. And since
` @L>|P:N<?=:5KP>@:‰|><4&9:@=9K
`that is the issue on appeal in a Forsyth
`- <L<=@<L=@@|>9MMP=9+>?@J<L
`appeal,
`the lower court is divested of
`1 MMP5<LP>G?K>|?<=@:=C@<:>{
`jurisdiction to conduct the trial pending
`2 ‡|?=@:=K<=>9<>K>9:|K<<L<?=PM9:=9
`the appeal.
`8 <LMMP4
`And as the Court stated in Apostol,
`; &9:@<L,>|?<@<<:=9&M>@<>P5
`quote, It makes no sense for trial to go
`A ‰|><5!<Q…@9>@9@{>?<?=P<>>
`forward when the Court of Appeals
`D {>?G?:GL9<L,>|?<>{&MMP@
`cogitates over whether there should be
`F K>=<<@>C?GL<L?<L?@L>|P:N
`one, close quote.
` >95KP>@‰|><4
`Furthermore, since the —— you know,
` +|?<L?Q>?5@=9K<LBBJ>|…9>G5
`even in a normal interlocutory appeal,
`the
`- C9=99>?QP=9<?P>K|<>?JMMP5<L
`trial court or the administrative court
`1 <?=PK>|?<>?<L:Q=9=@<?<=CK>|?<
`below is divested of jurisdiction over the
`2 NP>G=@:=C@<:>{‡|?=@:=K<=>9>C?<L
`issues at issue in the interlocutory
`8 =@@|@<=@@|=9<L=9<?P>K|<>?J
`appeal, and when the interlocutory appeal
`; MMP59:GL9<L=9<?P>K|<>?JMMP
`has another collateral order doctrine and
`A L@9><L?K>PP<?P>?:?:>K<?=99:
`covers whether there should be a trial or
`D K>C?@GL<L?<L?@L>|P:N<?=P>?
`not,
`that divests the lower court or the
`F 9><5<L<:=C@<@<LP>G?K>|?<>?<L
`administrative court of the ability to
` :Q=9=@<?<=CK>|?<>{<LN=P=<J<>
`conduct what is the subject of the appeal.
` K>9:|K<GL<=@<L@|N‡K<>{<LMMP4
`This is black—letter United States
`- "L=@=@NPK…BP<<?9=<:%<<@
`Supreme Court, circuit court,
`1 %|M?Q,>|?<5K=?K|=<K>|?<5
`constitutional law.
`It is not subject to
`2 K>9@<=<|<=>9PPG4!<=@9><@|N‡K<<>
`
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`   
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`

`-
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`debate.
` :N<4
`Second,
`there's no harm to
`- %K>9:5<L?@9>L?Q<>
`Respondents in delaying a decision on the
`1 '@M>9:9<@=9:PJ=9:K=@=>9>9<L
`merits until the Federal Circuit and
`2 Q?=<@|9<=P<L+:?P,=?K|=<9:
`ultimately the Supreme Court weighs in on
`8 |P<=Q<PJ<L%|M?Q,>|?<G=L@=9>9
`the issue.
`; <L=@@|4
`There's no generic equivalent of
`A "L?@9>9?=K‰|=CP9<>{
`Restasis that's been approved by the FDA
`D '@<@=@<L<@N9MM?>C:NJ<L+$&
`for sale,
`so it's not stopping them from
`F {>?@P5@>=<@9><@<>MM=9<LQ{?>Q
`being able to sell anything. And the
` N=9NP<>@PP9J<L=94&9:<L
`patent at issue has already been found
` M<9<<=@@|L@P?:JN9{>|9:
`invalid by the district court, and that
`- =9CP=:NJ<L:=@<?=K<K>|?<59:<L<
`case is already on appeal with the
`1 K@=@P?:J>9MMPG=<L<L
`Appellee's brief, due relatively soon.
`2 &MMPP@N?={5:|?P<=CPJ@>>94
`So unlike the Respondents, who
`8 %>|9P=…<L'@M>9:9<@5GL>
`suffered no harm,
`the Petitioners, or the
`; @|{{?:9>L?Q5<L<=<=>9?@5>?<L
`Patent Owners in this case, will suffer
`A <9<*G9?@=9<L=@K@5G=PP@|{{?
`significant harm if there is no stay.
`D @=9={=K9<L?Q={<L?=@9>@<J4
`For —— first of all, sovereign
`F +>?BB{=?@<>{PP5@>C?=9
`immunity encompasses immunity from the
` =QQ|9=<J9K>QM@@@=QQ|9=<J{?>Q<L
`process as well as the outcome.
`So
` M?>K@@@GPP@<L>|<K>Q4%>
`continuing the process pending an appeal
`- K>9<=9|=9<LM?>K@@M9:=99MMP
`of whether the process should go forward
`1 >{GL<L?<LM?>K@@@L>|P:>{>?G?:
`is an irreparably damaging set of
`2 =@9=??M?NPJ:Q=9@<>{
`
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`1
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` -†2†FA
`circumstances that, frankly, has never,
`in
` K=?K|Q@<9K@<L<5{?9…PJ5L@9C?5=9
`the history of the American jurisprudence,
`- <LL=@<>?J>{<L&Q?=K9‡|?=@M?|:9K5
`been allowed to go forward.
`You would be
`1 N9PP>G:<>>{>?G?:43>|G>|P:N
`setting a precedent in violation of the US
`2 @<<=9M?K:9<=9C=>P<=>9>{<L%
`Supreme Court and multiple circuit court
`8 %|M?Q,>|?<9:Q|P<=MPK=?K|=<K>|?<
`precedents that say sovereign immunity;
`; M?K:9<@<L<@J@>C?=9=QQ|9=<JŠ
`and whether the process can go forward
`A 9:GL<L?<LM?>K@@K9>{>?G?:
`against a sovereign is a jurisdictional
`D =9@<@>C?=9=@‡|?=@:=K<=>9P
`issue that must be decided first on
`F =@@|<L<Q|@<N:K=::{=?@<>9
`appeal.
` MMP4
`Also,
`the right to direct
` &P@>5<L?=L<<>:=?K<
`representation in the IPR if the Federal
`- ?M?@9<<=>9=9<L!'={<L+:?P
`Circuit or the Supreme Court finds
`1 ,=?K|=<>?<L%|M?Q,>|?<{=9:@
`sovereign immunity does not apply is a
`2 @>C?=9=QQ|9=<J:>@9><MMPJ=@
`fundamental due process right.
`So if
`8 {|9:Q9<P:|M?>K@@?=L<4%>={
`Allergan is not a proper party to
`; &PP?9=@9><M?>M?M?<J<>
`participate in the proceedings because
`A M?<=K=M<=9<LM?>K:=9@NK|@
`they are not the patent owner and the
`D <LJ?9><<LM<9<>G9?9:<L
`statute does not have an exception for,
`F @<<|<:>@9><LC9‚KM<=>9{>?5
`quote, effective patent owners, close
` ‰|><5{{K<=CM<9<>G9?@5KP>@
`quote,
`that is something that doesn't
` ‰|><5<L<=@@>Q<L=9<L<:>@9<
`appear in the statute, doesn't appear in
`- MM?=9<L@<<|<5:>@9<MM?=9
`any prior PTAB case, doesn't appear in the
`1 9JM?=>?"&.K@5:>@9<MM?=9<L
`legislative history.
`2 P=@P<=CL=@<>?J4
`
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`2
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`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`You're either a patent owner or
` 3>|?=<L?M<9<>G9?>?
`you're not. And it is undisputed that the
`- J>|?9><4&9:=<=@|9:=@M|<:<L<<L
`only patent owner of record is the
`1 >9PJM<9<>G9?>{?K>?:=@<L
`Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe.
`So going
`2 %=9<'=@(>LG…"?=N4%>>=9
`forward without them,
`they would suffer
`8 {>?G?:G=<L>|<<LQ5<LJG>|P:@|{{?
`irreparable 5th Amendment due—process
`; =??M?NP2<L&Q9:Q9<:|BM?>K@@
`harm from that lack of participation.
`A L?Q{?>Q<L<PK…>{M?<=K=M<=>94
`Third, if the Panel insists that it
`D "L=?:5={<L9P=9@=@<@<L<=<
`retains jurisdiction pending appeal,
`F ?<=9@‡|?=@:=K<=>9M9:=9MMP5
`without —— we would ask that we be allowed
` G=<L>|<BBGG>|P:@…<L<GNPP>G:
`to file a motion to stay the proceedings
` <>{=PQ><=>9<>@<J<LM?>K:=9@
`based upon these arguments I've made by
`- N@:|M>9<L@?|Q9<@!CQ:NJ
`this Thursday at noon Eastern Standard
`1 <L=@"L|?@:J<9>>9#@<?9%<9:?:
`Time, and the Respondents file their
`2 "=Q59:<L'@M>9:9<@{=P<L=?
`responsive briefs by Monday noon Eastern
`8 ?@M>9@=CN?={@NJ(>9:J9>>9#@<?9
`Standard Time, and that the Panel reach
`; %<9:?:"=Q59:<L<<L9P?KL
`its decision by Friday March 16th or
`A =<@:K=@=>9NJ+?=:J(?KL8<L>?
`sooner.
`D @>>9?4
`That timeline is required because if
`F "L<<=QP=9=@?‰|=?:NK|@={
`the Panel declines the stay,
`the Tribe
` <L9P:KP=9@<L@<J5<L"?=N
`will need to file an emergency motion to
` G=PP9:<>{=P9Q?9KJQ><=>9<>
`stay the proceedings at the Federal
`- @<J<LM?>K:=9@<<L+:?P
`Circuit because, obviously, if you don't
`1 ,=?K|=<NK|@5>NC=>|@PJ5={J>|:>9<
`file the emergency motion in time to stop
`2 {=P<LQ?9KJQ><=>9=9<=Q<>@<>M
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`877-702-9580
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` -†2†FA
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` 9&M?=P-?:L?=95GL=KL<L
`
`- &M?=P-?::<=@BB!LC9>=:
`
`1 GL?=<KQ{?>QN|<=<@9><
`
`2 9K@@?JBBGG>|P:9:<=Q<>LC
`
`8 <L+:?P,=?K|=<NNP<>:K=:<L<
`
`; Q?9KJQ><=>9{>?@<JN{>?
`
`A &M?=P-?:4
`
`D &P@>5<L@<<|<>?J::P=9<>
`
`F K>QMP<!'@=@Q9=9P@@4&=95<L
`
` %|M?Q,>|?<M?K:9<.?>K…C?@|@
`
` =?K,>|9<J51;8%2-O‹"L{=P|?
`
`- >{99KJ<>K>QMPJG=<L<L@<<|<>?J
`
`1 P=Q=<:>@9><:=C@<<L9KJ>{
`
`2 ‡|?=@:=K<=>94‹
`
`8 &9:<L‰|><{?>Q<L<K@=@
`
`; M?<=K|P?PJ<PP=94!<@J@<L
`
`A @K?<?J9><@<L<GL=P%K<=>9F8
`
`D @M…@=9Q9:<>?JP9|5P=…>|?
`
`F @<<|<L?5@J=9<L<=<@Q9:<>?J
`
` J>|K>QMP<G=<L=9K?<=9Q>|9<>{
`
` <=Q59>GL?=9<L@<<|<:>@=<
`
`- @MK={J9JK>9@‰|9K@{>?<L{=P|?
`
`1 <>Q…{=9P:<?Q=9<=>9G=<L=9<L
`
`2 ::P=94
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`   
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`

`;
`
` -†2†FA
`
` %>@<L%|M?Q,>|?<@<<:=9
`
`- .?>K…5={<L@<<|<:>@9><=C
`
`1 K>9@‰|9K{>?{=P=9<>Q<<L
`
`2 ::P=95<L9<L>C?9Q9<9KJ:>@
`
`8 9><P>@‡|?=@:=K<=>9{>?{=P|?<>
`
`; K>QMPJG=<L<L@<<|<>?J<=QP=Q=<@
`
`A |9P@@5=95<L@<<|<5‰|><5.><L
`
`D ‚M?@@PJ?‰|=?@99KJ>?M|NP=K
`
`F >{{=K=P<>K<G=<L=9M?<=K|P?<=Q
`
` M?=>:9:@MK={J<LK>9@‰|9K{>?
`
` {=P|?<><=QPJK>QMPJG=<L<L
`
`- M?>C=@=>94&9:5=95<L<@%|M?Q
`
`1 ,>|?<M?K:9<4
`
`2 %>@=9K<L@<<|<L?:>@9<
`
`8 LC9JK>9@‰|9K{>?{=P=9<>K>QMPJ
`
`; 9::|?=9<LM9:9KJ>{<LMMP9J
`
`A <=Q{?QG>|P:N<>PP:5<L>9PJGJ
`
`D <L<J>|LC5=9@=<|<=>9P=…<L=@5
`
`F <>{>?K<L9KJ<>Q…:K=@=>9=@
`
` <>{=PBB<LM?>M??Q:J=@@|=<
`
` |9:?2%,;F8<>K>QMP9KJK<=>94
`
`- %>9>>9=@>=9<>{=P@|=<
`
`1 |9:?2%,;F8<>K>QMP9K<=>94
`
`2 "L?=@9>?P::P=9NK|@<L?@
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`

`A
`
`
`
`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`no specified statement of the consequences
` 9>@MK={=:@<<Q9<>{<LK>9@‰|9K@
`for failing to meet it in the statute.
`- {>?{=P=9<>Q<=<=9<L@<<|<4
`In summary,
`these are important
`1 !9@|QQ?J5<L@?=QM>?<9<
`issues to the parties,
`to PTAB, and the
`2 =@@|@<><LM?<=@5<>"&.59:<L
`United States patent system as a whole.
`8 9=<:%<<@M<9<@J@<Q@GL>P4
`They deserve to be decided by an Article 3
`; "LJ:@?C<>N:K=::NJ9&?<=KP-
`court in an orderly appellate process.
`A K>|?<=99>?:?PJMMPP<M?>K@@4
`The issues on appeal are of a type that
`D "L=@@|@>9MMP?>{<JM<L<
`are beyond both the expertise and
`F ?NJ>9:N><L<L‚M?<=@9:
`statutory mandate of the Panel. And I
` @<<|<>?JQ9:<>{<L9P4&9:!
`don't mean that to be in any way
` :>9<Q9<L<<>N=99JGJ
`disparaging, but this Panel is not
`- :=@M?=95N|<<L=@9P=@9><
`constituted to determine issues of
`1 K>9@<=<|<:<>:<?Q=9=@@|@>{
`immunity, sovereign immunity, native
`2 =QQ|9=<J5@>C?=9=QQ|9=<J59<=C
`immunity, constitutional issues, or
`8 =QQ|9=<J5K>9@<=<|<=>9P=@@|@5>?
`anything of the like.
`; 9J<L=9>{<LP=…4
`The appeal will be decided de novo
`A "LMMPG=PPN:K=:::9>C>
`with no deference to the Panel's decision
`D G=<L9>:{?9K<><L9P@:K=@=>9
`or rationale behind it.
`In circumstances
`F >??<=>9PNL=9:=<4!9K=?K|Q@<9K@
`like this, it would be an abuse of the
` P=…<L=@5=<G>|P:N9N|@>{<L
`Panel's discretion and beyond its
` 9P@:=@K?<=>99:NJ>9:=<@
`statutory mandate not to stay the IPRs
`- @<<|<>?JQ9:<9><<>@<J<L!'@
`pending appeal.
`1 M9:=9MMP4
`We would like to be able to brief
`2 }G>|P:P=…<>NNP<>N?={
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`877-702-9580
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`


`   
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`

`D
`
`
`
`3/5/2018
` -†2†FA
`this.
`If the Court is not going to agree
` <L=@4!{<L,>|?<=@9><>=9<>?
`on this call that it is divested of
`- >9<L=@KPP<L<=<=@:=C@<:>{
`jurisdiction,
`then we'd like the
`1 ‡|?=@:=K<=>95<L9G:P=…<L
`opportunity to brief it. We need that
`2 >MM>?<|9=<J<>N?={=<4}9:<L<
`briefing to be on an expedited basis and a
`8 N?={=9<>N>99‚M:=<:N@=@9:
`ruling to be on expedited basis so that we
`; ?|P=9<>N>9‚M:=<:N@=@@><L<G
`can get all these issues to the federal
`A K9<PP<L@=@@|@<><L{:?P
`court —— the Federal Circuit where it
`D K>|?<BB<L+:?P,=?K|=<GL?=<
`belongs and ultimately, if necessary,
`the
`F NP>9@9:|P<=Q<PJ5={9K@@?J5<L
`Supreme Court.
` %|M?Q,>|?<4
`That's our position. We think it's
` "L<@>|?M>@=<=>94}<L=9…=<@
`constitutionally and Supreme Court
`- K>9@<=<|<=>9PPJ9:%|M?Q,>|?<
`precedent rock solid.
`1 M?K:9<?>K…@>P=:4
`This is a Forsyth appeal. This is
`2 "L=@=@+>?@J<LMMP4"L=@=@
`an appeal to determine whether or not the
`8 9MMP<>:<?Q=9GL<L?>?9><<L
`proceedings go forward at all. And in
`; M?>K:=9@>{>?G?:<PP4&9:=9
`such an appeal,
`the Board or the Panel is
`A @|KL9MMP5<L.>?:>?<L9P=@
`absolutely divested of jurisdiction.
`It's
`D N@>P|<PJ:=C@<:>{‡|?=@:=K<=>94!<@
`black—letter law.
`It should not be
`F NPK…BP<<?PG4!<@L>|P:9><N
`subject to debate.
` @|N‡K<<>:N<4
`JUDGE SNEDDEN: Understood.
` I$E#% #$$# O9:?@<>>:4
`Mr. Torczon, would you like to
`- (?4">?K„>95G>|P:J>|P=…<>
`respond?
`1 ?