In Re: UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`AM GENERAL, LLC
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`Vs.
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`UUSI, LLC
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`BRUNO LEQUESNE, PH.D.
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`June 01, 2017
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions — Washington, DC
`1—800—292—4789
`www.deposition.com/washington—dc.htm
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`AM General Exhibit 1016
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`AM General v. UUSI
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`|PR2016—01050
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`Page 00001
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`AM General Exhibit 1016
`AM General v. UUSI
`IPR2016-01050
`Page 00001
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`AM GENERAL, LLC
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`Vs.
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`UUSI, LLC
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`BRUNO LEQUESNE, PH.D.
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`June 01, 2017
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions — Washington, DC
`1—800—292—4789
`www.deposition.com/washington—dc.htm
`
`AM General Exhibit 1016
`
`AM General v. UUSI
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`|PR2016—01050
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`Page 00001
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`AM General Exhibit 1016
`AM General v. UUSI
`IPR2016-01050
`Page 00001
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2016-01049
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 5,570,666
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`·3
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`·4· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·6
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`·7· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·AM GENERAL, LLC
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · UUSI, LLC
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2016-01049
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`18· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,570,666
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`20· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF BRUNO LEQUESNE, Ph.D.
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`21· · · · · · · · ·Thursday, June 1, 2017
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`22· ·Before PHILLIP J. KAUFFMAN, MEREDITH C. PETRAVICK,
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`23· ·and RICHARD E. RICE, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`24· ·Reported By: Joan V. Cain
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`25· ·Job No.: WDC-128386
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`Page 00002
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2016-01050
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 6,148,258
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`·3
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`·4· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·6
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`·7· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·AM GENERAL, LLC
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · UUSI, LLC
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2016-01050
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`18· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 6,148,258
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`20
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`21· ·Before PHILLIP J. KAUFFMAN, MEREDITH C. PETRAVICK,
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`22· ·and RICHARD E. RICE, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`Page 00003
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2016-01051
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 5,729,456
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`·3
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`·4· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·6
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`·7· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·AM GENERAL, LLC
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · UUSI, LLC
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2016-01051
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`18· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,729,456
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · ·___________
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`20
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`21· ·Before PHILLIP J. KAUFFMAN, MEREDITH C. PETRAVICK,
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`22· ·and RICHARD E. RICE, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`23
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`25
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`Page 00004
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`·1
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`·2· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF BRUNO LEQUESNE, Ph.D.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · Thursday, June 1, 2017
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:37 a.m.
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· ·Job No.:· WDC-128386
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`·9· ·Pages 1 - 120
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`10· ·Reported By:· Joan V. Cain
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`·1· · · · · Deposition of BRUNO LEQUESNE, Ph.D.· held at
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`·2· ·the law offices of:
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · ·MCDERMOTT WILL & EMERY, LLP
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`·5· · · · · · · ·500 North Capitol Street, Northwest
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`·6· · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20001
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`·7· · · · · · · ·(202) 756-8000
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · Pursuant to Notice, before Joan V. Cain,
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`10· ·Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the
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`11· ·District of Columbia.
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`·1· · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2
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`·3· ·ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
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`·4· · · ·NICOLE M. JANTZI, ESQUIRE
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`·5· · · ·IAN B. BROOKS, ESQUIRE
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`·6· · · ·MCDERMOTT WILL & EMERY, LLP
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`·7· · · ·500 North Capitol Street, Northwest
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`·8· · · ·Washington, D.C. 20001
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`·9· · · ·Telephone:· (202) 756-8000
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`10· · · ·E-mail:· njantzi@mwe.com
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`11· · · · · · · · ibrooks@mwe.com
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`12
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`13· ·ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
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`14· · · ·TERESA M. SUMMERS, ESQUIRE
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`15· · · ·DIMURO GINSBERG, PC
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`16· · · ·1101 King Street
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`17· · · ·Suite 610
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`18· · · ·Alexandria, Virginia 22314
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`19· · · ·Telephone:· (703) 684-4333
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`20· · · ·E-mail:· tsummers@dimure.com
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`21
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`22· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`23· · · ·Daniel J. Dell'Orto, Esquire
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`Page 00007
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·C O N T E N T S
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`·2
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION OF BRUNO LEQUESNE, Ph.D.· · · · · ·PAGE
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`·4· · · By Ms. Jantzi· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 8
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`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·7· · · · · · · (Attached to the Transcript.)
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`·8· ·DEPOSITION EXHIBITS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·9· ·EXHIBIT 1015 Notice of Deposition of· · · · · · ·12
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`10· · · · · · · · Dr. Lequesne for Case No.
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`11· · · · · · · · IPR2016-01049
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`12· ·EXHIBIT 1015 Notice of Deposition of· · · · · · ·12
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`13· · · · · · · · Dr. Lequesne for Case No.
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`14· · · · · · · · IPR2016-01051
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`15· ·EXHIBIT 1017 Notice of Deposition of· · · · · · ·12
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`16· · · · · · · · Dr. Lequesne for Case No.
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`17· · · · · · · · IPR2016-01050
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · · · · BRUNO LEQUESNE, Ph.D.
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`·3· ·having been duly sworn under penalties of perjury,
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`·4· ·was examined and did testify as follows:
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`·5· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
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`·6· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
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`·7· · · Q· · Good morning.
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`·8· · · A· · Good morning.
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`·9· · · Q· · Would you please state your name and
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`10· ·address for the record.
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`11· · · A· · My name is Bruno, B-R-U-N-O, Lequesne,
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`12· ·L-E-Q-U-E-S-N-E.· Address is W133N6182 Hummingbird
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`13· ·Way, Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin 53051.
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`14· · · Q· · And where are you currently employed?
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`15· · · A· · I am self-employed.· E-Motors Consulting.
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`16· · · Q· · And you understand that you're under oath
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`17· ·here today?
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`18· · · A· · Yes.
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`19· · · Q· · Okay.· And is there anything that would
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`20· ·prevent you from giving full and complete testimony
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`21· ·today?
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`22· · · A· · No.
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`23· · · Q· · Just to give you a little bit of the ground
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`24· ·rules for the deposition, I'm going to ask the
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`25· ·questions, and you'll give the answer.· The court
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`Page 00009
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`·1· ·reporter's going to transcribe my questions and your
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`·2· ·answers.· If your counsel objects, please let her
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`·3· ·get her objection out, and unless she instructs you
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`·4· ·not to answer, you need to answer my question.
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`·5· · · · · ·If my questions are unclear, please feel
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`·6· ·free to ask for clarification.· I want to make sure
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`·7· ·you understand my questions.· And we will take
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`·8· ·breaks periodically, but of course if you need to
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`·9· ·take a break at some point, please just let me know
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`10· ·and I'll do my best to accommodate that based on the
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`11· ·timing.
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`12· · · A· · Thank you.
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`13· · · Q· · Have you ever been deposed before?
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`14· · · A· · Yes.
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`15· · · Q· · In how many cases?
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`16· · · A· · One.
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`17· · · Q· · Was that a patent-related case?
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`18· · · A· · Yes.
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`19· · · Q· · And do you recall the name of that case?
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`20· · · A· · SD3 versus U.S. Patent Office.
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`21· · · Q· · Are you still working on that case?
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`22· · · A· · No.
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`23· · · Q· · What was the technology at issue?
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`24· · · A· · Electric machine for machine tool, bandsaws
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`25· ·in particular.
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`Page 00010
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`·1· · · Q· · And how long was your deposition in that
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`·2· ·case?
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`·3· · · A· · It lasted the whole day, give or take.
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`·4· · · Q· · And did you go to trial in this matter?
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`·5· · · A· · Yes.
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`·6· · · Q· · And were you put on the stand?
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`·7· · · A· · Yes.
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`·8· · · Q· · What was the result of this case?
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`·9· · · A· · The petitioner won; SD3 won the case.
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`10· · · Q· · Sir, have you ever served as an expert
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`11· ·witness in a patent case before these two cases you
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`12· ·just mentioned?
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`13· · · A· · No.· I guess you said two cases.
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`14· · · Q· · Oh, I'm sorry.· I meant the one.
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`15· · · A· · It's a single case, but deposition and
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`16· ·trial.
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`17· · · Q· · Fair enough.· Where was the SD3 case
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`18· ·pending?
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`19· · · A· · U.S. District Court in D.C.
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`20· · · Q· · If I say the term "PTAB," do you know what
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`21· ·I mean?
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`22· · · A· · I've heard it before, but I would
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`23· ·appreciate you spelling it out.
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`24· · · Q· · Sure.· But what's your understanding of
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`25· ·that means?
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`Page 00011
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`·1· · · A· · Frankly, I don't know.
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`·2· · · Q· · Okay.· If I say Patent Trial and Appeal
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`·3· ·Board, does that have any meaning to you?
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`·4· · · A· · Yes.· I think it's part of the U.S. Patent
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`·5· ·Office.
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`·6· · · Q· · Have you ever worked on a PTAB proceeding
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`·7· ·before?
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`·8· · · A· · Frankly, I don't know because here there is
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`·9· ·a technicality that I may be not aware of.· I was
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`10· ·working on behalf of the U.S. Patent Office, but my
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`11· ·understanding is that it was beyond PTAB, as the
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`12· ·case was appealed to the U.S. District Court.
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`13· · · Q· · So why are you here today?
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`14· · · A· · I was asked to give my expert opinion on
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`15· ·the pending case, in actually three IPR cases.
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`16· · · Q· · And who are you giving your opinions on
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`17· ·behalf of today?
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`18· · · A· · UUSI.
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`19· · · Q· · Before this matter, had you ever worked
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`20· ·with UUSI in the past?
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`21· · · A· · No.
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`22· · · Q· · Have you ever worked with a company called
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`23· ·Nartron in the past?
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`24· · · A· · No.
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`25· · · Q· · Have you ever heard of a company called
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`Page 00012
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`·1· ·Nartron?
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`·2· · · A· · Not really, no.
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`·3· · · Q· · What about Oldnar?
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`·4· · · A· · I don't think so.· How do you spell that,
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`·5· ·please?
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`·6· · · Q· · O-L-D-N-A-R.
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`·7· · · A· · No.
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`·8· · · Q· · I'm going to mark a couple of exhibits.
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`·9· · · · · ·MS. JANTZI:· So this is where you get to
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`10· ·create your labels.· The first document I'm going to
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`11· ·mark as Exhibit 1015.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit 1015 was marked for
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`13· ·identification and was attached to the deposition
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`14· ·transcript.)
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`15· · · · · ·MS. JANTZI:· And I'm going to also mark
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`16· ·another Exhibit 1015 and then Exhibit 1017.
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`17· · · · · · · · ·(Exhibit 1015 and 1017 were marked
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`18· ·for identification and were attached to the
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`19· ·deposition transcript.)
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`20· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
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`21· · · Q· · Okay.· Dr. Lequesne, I'm going to give you
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`22· ·a copy of what's been marked as Exhibit 1015, which
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`23· ·is Exhibit 1015 in the proceeding IPR2016-01049, and
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`24· ·I'm asking you to take a look at that document and
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`25· ·let me know if you've seen it before.
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`Page 00013
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`·1· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· May I have a copy, please?
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`·2· · · · · ·MS. JANTZI:· Oh, sure.· I'm sorry.
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`·3· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Thanks.
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`·4· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I have.
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`·5· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
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`·6· · · Q· · And what does this document represent to
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`·7· ·you?
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`·8· · · A· · It is inviting me to this deposition.
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`·9· · · Q· · And I'm also going to mark as Exhibit 1017
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`10· ·in the IPR proceeding 2016-01050.· Can you take a
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`11· ·look at that?
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`12· · · · · ·Do you recognize that document?
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`13· · · A· · Yes.
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`14· · · Q· · And what does it represent to you?
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`15· · · A· · Same thing.· It's an invitation to this
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`16· ·deposition today.
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`17· · · Q· · And, finally, I'm going to mark Exhibit
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`18· ·1015, which is for IPR2016-01051.· Same thing:· Do
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`19· ·you recognize this document?
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`20· · · A· · Yes.
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`21· · · Q· · What does it represent to you?
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`22· · · A· · It invites me to a similar deposition
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`23· ·tomorrow.
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`24· · · Q· · And do you understand that you're here to
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`25· ·testify today regarding the proceedings brought by
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`Page 00014
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`·1· ·the petitioner AM General with respect to these
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`·2· ·three proceedings identified in these exhibits?
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`·3· · · A· · Yes.
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`·4· · · Q· · Okay.· And these particular proceedings are
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`·5· ·related to certain patents --
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`·6· · · A· · Yes.
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`·7· · · Q· · -- is that your understanding?
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`·8· · · A· · Yes.
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`·9· · · Q· · And the 2016-01049 proceeding is related to
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`10· ·the 5,570,666 patent, correct?
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`11· · · A· · Yes.
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`12· · · Q· · And do you mind today, when we are
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`13· ·discussing that patent, that I label it the '666
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`14· ·patent?
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`15· · · A· · Yes, that would be fine.
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`16· · · Q· · Okay.· Also with respect to proceeding
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`17· ·IPR2016-01050, is it your understanding that it
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`18· ·relates to U.S. Patent No. 6,148,258?
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`19· · · A· · Yes.
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`20· · · Q· · And, similarly, do you -- would it be okay
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`21· ·with you if I refer to that patent today as the '258
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`22· ·patent?
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`23· · · A· · Yes.
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`24· · · Q· · Okay.· And then, finally, with respect to
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`25· ·IPR proceeding 2016-01051, is it your understanding
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`Page 00015
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`·1· ·that that proceeding relates to U.S. Patent
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`·2· ·5,729,456?
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`·3· · · A· · Yes.
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`·4· · · Q· · And, again, would you mind if I identified
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`·5· ·that patent as the '456 patent today?
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`·6· · · A· · No, and I will do likewise.
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`·7· · · Q· · Okay.· Thank you.· So how much are you
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`·8· ·being paid for your testimony today?
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`·9· · · A· · 250 an hour.
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`10· · · Q· · And are you aware that there is a
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`11· ·co-pending case between AM General and UUSI at the
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`12· ·Court of Federal Claims?
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`13· · · A· · Yes.
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`14· · · Q· · Okay.· Have you been asked to provide any
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`15· ·opinions in that case?
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`16· · · A· · No.
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`17· · · Q· · Do you have any role in that case?
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`18· · · A· · No.
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`19· · · Q· · Have you read any materials related to that
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`20· ·litigation?
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`21· · · A· · No.
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`22· · · Q· · What materials have you reviewed in the
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`23· ·course of your work in these proceedings?
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`24· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· I would caution the witness
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`25· ·not to reveal any attorney-client privileged
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`Page 00016
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`·1· ·information.
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`·2· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Could I see my
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`·3· ·declarations?· I mean, are you asking about all
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`·4· ·three or just one?
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`·5· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
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`·6· · · Q· · No.· Okay.· So we go with respect to the
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`·7· ·'666 patent.
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`·8· · · A· · Okay.
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`·9· · · Q· · What materials have you relied on in
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`10· ·forming your opinions for that particular case?
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`11· · · A· · Could I see my declaration on the '666?
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`12· · · Q· · Could you tell me without looking at the
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`13· ·declaration?
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`14· · · A· · I would prefer to see my declaration just
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`15· ·to make sure I don't miss one.
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`16· · · Q· · Is it your understanding that you would
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`17· ·have identified everything you relied on in that
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`18· ·declaration?
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`19· · · A· · Yes.
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`20· · · Q· · Okay.· Well, that's fine.· Is that the same
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`21· ·thing for the '258 and the '456 declarations?
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`22· · · A· · Yes.
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`23· · · Q· · Okay.· So you said earlier that you're
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`24· ·currently working, I believe, at a company called EM
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`25· ·Motors Consulting, LLC; is that right?
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`Page 00017
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`·1· · · A· · E-Motors Consulting.
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`·2· · · Q· · Oh, E-Motors Consulting?
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`·3· · · A· · Yes.
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`·4· · · Q· · Okay.· And what is your position within
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`·5· ·that company?
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`·6· · · A· · I'm sole employee, so I'm everything.
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`·7· · · Q· · Okay.· So what do you do in your capacity
`
`·8· ·as the sole employee?
`
`·9· · · A· · My line of work, I would say there are
`
`10· ·three lines of work.· One is engineering, mostly for
`
`11· ·Tier 1 automotive suppliers.· I've done a couple
`
`12· ·of -- participated in a couple of research programs
`
`13· ·with universities and then the two expert witness
`
`14· ·cases, the one we talked about and this one.
`
`15· · · Q· · And when you say Tier 1 auto suppliers,
`
`16· ·what do you mean by that?
`
`17· · · A· · That is a company that sells directly to an
`
`18· ·automaker, so they sell to General Motors, Ford, and
`
`19· ·so forth.
`
`20· · · Q· · And so what Tier 1 auto suppliers have you
`
`21· ·worked for in your capacity at E-Motors?
`
`22· · · A· · The main one is Borg, B-O-R-G hyphen
`
`23· ·Warner, W-A-R-N-E-R.· They used to be -- the group
`
`24· ·I'm working with used to be called Remy
`
`25· ·International.· Remy is R-E-M-Y.· They were acquired
`
`Page 00018
`
`
`
`·1· ·by Borg-Warner last year.
`
`·2· · · Q· · And what do you do for them?
`
`·3· · · A· · They do electric motors, mostly related to
`
`·4· ·starter systems, starter motors, alternators, and
`
`·5· ·motors for hybrid vehicles and electric vehicles,
`
`·6· ·and there's a lot of activities, especially for
`
`·7· ·hybrid and electric vehicles.· So I'm involved in
`
`·8· ·motor design, evaluation, and so forth.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Does any of your work for Borg-Warner
`
`10· ·relate to diesel engines?
`
`11· · · A· · Well, if you design an electric motor for a
`
`12· ·hybrid vehicle, it may be diesel or not diesel.
`
`13· ·It's neutral in terms of what engine might be
`
`14· ·involved.
`
`15· · · Q· · But specifically with respect to the work
`
`16· ·you've actually done for them, has it related to
`
`17· ·diesel engines?
`
`18· · · A· · Not -- well, I don't know.· They are --
`
`19· ·they are programs for vehicles, and I don't know if
`
`20· ·they would work in tandem with an ignition engine or
`
`21· ·a diesel engine because it doesn't affect the design
`
`22· ·of the electric machine.
`
`23· · · Q· · Oh, so the work you're doing on behalf of
`
`24· ·them doesn't affect whether the engine is diesel or
`
`25· ·not.· Is that what you're saying?
`
`Page 00019
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · Right.· And, conversely, the type of engine
`
`·2· ·doesn't impact the machine design.· It may impact
`
`·3· ·the specifications for the machine, but typically
`
`·4· ·works on the specifications.
`
`·5· · · Q· · But would you agree with me that starter
`
`·6· ·systems for standard engines are different than
`
`·7· ·diesel engines?
`
`·8· · · A· · If you understand starter system to include
`
`·9· ·sparkplugs and the controls, for instance fuel
`
`10· ·weight and so forth that take place during starting,
`
`11· ·I would say, yes.· I mean, if you say starter
`
`12· ·system, it could be now where it's just a starter
`
`13· ·motor and the solenoid.· That would be similar
`
`14· ·whether it's a diesel engine or a spark-ignition
`
`15· ·engine.
`
`16· · · Q· · But with respect to the work you're doing
`
`17· ·right now for Borg-Warner, it's -- it's not
`
`18· ·specifically related to issues related to diesel
`
`19· ·engines?
`
`20· · · A· · No.
`
`21· · · Q· · Okay.· Are you doing any work in your
`
`22· ·current capacity at E-Motors that relates to diesel
`
`23· ·engines?
`
`24· · · A· · I have not so far, no.
`
`25· · · Q· · Okay.· How about any work related to
`
`Page 00020
`
`
`
`·1· ·glowplug controllers?
`
`·2· · · A· · No, not so far.
`
`·3· · · Q· · And any work related to glowplugs?
`
`·4· · · A· · No.· At E-Motors, no.
`
`·5· · · Q· · Excuse me?
`
`·6· · · A· · At E-Motors, no.
`
`·7· · · Q· · Okay.· So you are also an adjunct professor
`
`·8· ·at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, correct?
`
`·9· · · A· · Yes, and also at North Carolina State
`
`10· ·University.
`
`11· · · Q· · At the same time?
`
`12· · · A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · Q· · Currently?
`
`14· · · A· · Yes.
`
`15· · · Q· · So I'll go one by one.· So what does your
`
`16· ·work at Wisconsin, Milwaukee entail?
`
`17· · · A· · This is really research work. I
`
`18· ·participate in research programs.· I've been
`
`19· ·involved -- excuse me -- with -- on a project to
`
`20· ·develop a small hydropower.
`
`21· · · Q· · Are you -- do you have any sort of teaching
`
`22· ·capacity?
`
`23· · · A· · No.· I could, but I don't.
`
`24· · · Q· · Why not?
`
`25· · · A· · I'm busy enough.
`
`Page 00021
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Okay.· How often do you work for the
`
`·2· ·University of Wisconsin?
`
`·3· · · A· · We had a project that just ended, so I was
`
`·4· ·busy during the course of that project.· We applied
`
`·5· ·for another grant.· I don't know yet whether we
`
`·6· ·received that grant or not.
`
`·7· · · Q· · So right now are you not doing anything?
`
`·8· · · A· · Right now, no.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Right now, no?
`
`10· · · A· · Yes.· Correct.
`
`11· · · Q· · Sorry.· You and I are kind of talking over
`
`12· ·each other, so I will try to be better.· If you can
`
`13· ·also try to let me finish --
`
`14· · · A· · Sorry.
`
`15· · · Q· · -- I will also let you finish.· So it makes
`
`16· ·her life easier.
`
`17· · · A· · Sorry.
`
`18· · · Q· · So during your work at the University of
`
`19· ·Wisconsin, have you done any work related to diesel
`
`20· ·engines?
`
`21· · · A· · No.
`
`22· · · Q· · Any work related to glowplug controllers?
`
`23· · · A· · No.
`
`24· · · Q· · Any work related to glowplugs?
`
`25· · · A· · No.
`
`Page 00022
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Switching over to your time -- or sorry --
`
`·2· ·your work at the North Carolina State University,
`
`·3· ·what does your work entail there?
`
`·4· · · A· · I was participating in a research program
`
`·5· ·that had to do with circuit breakers for DC current.
`
`·6· ·DC is just D-C, upper case.
`
`·7· · · Q· · And you said you were working for them.· Is
`
`·8· ·this project still ongoing?
`
`·9· · · A· · No.
`
`10· · · Q· · Do you have any other projects for them
`
`11· ·currently?
`
`12· · · A· · Not currently, no.
`
`13· · · Q· · Okay.· In terms of your work at North
`
`14· ·Carolina State University, has any of that work
`
`15· ·related to diesel engines?
`
`16· · · A· · No.
`
`17· · · Q· · Glowplug controllers?
`
`18· · · A· · No.
`
`19· · · Q· · Glowplugs?
`
`20· · · A· · No.
`
`21· · · Q· · So right now it sounds like you are
`
`22· ·currently working with E-Motors Consulting;
`
`23· ·University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee; and North
`
`24· ·Carolina State University, correct?
`
`25· · · A· · Yes.
`
`Page 00023
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Are there any other job responsibilities
`
`·2· ·you have at the moment?
`
`·3· · · A· · No.
`
`·4· · · Q· · Between those three, if you could give a
`
`·5· ·percentage, a rough percentage, of how much time you
`
`·6· ·spend with each of them, what would that be?
`
`·7· · · A· · Well, usually it depends on when because of
`
`·8· ·grant and so forth, but I would say 80 percent
`
`·9· ·anything except universities and 20 percent
`
`10· ·universities.
`
`11· · · Q· · 20 percent between the two universities?
`
`12· · · A· · Between the two, yes.
`
`13· · · Q· · Okay.· Would you say ten --
`
`14· · · A· · I'd give it ten and ten, yes, or 15 and 5,
`
`15· ·whatever.
`
`16· · · Q· · Okay.· How did you get involved with
`
`17· ·becoming an adjunct professor?
`
`18· · · A· · Well, I've -- I know professors there.
`
`19· ·That's really how I got involved.· I mean, I have a
`
`20· ·long career in research and participated in a number
`
`21· ·of conferences.· In fact, I had responsibilities
`
`22· ·within the IEEE, I-E-E-E, Institute of Electrical
`
`23· ·and Electronics Engineers.· So I know a number of
`
`24· ·professors, and I've known them for a number of
`
`25· ·years, so it came naturally from that.
`
`Page 00024
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Okay.· And before your roles at the two
`
`·2· ·universities and your consulting firm, did you ever
`
`·3· ·work in private industry?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · Q· · Okay.· In that capacity, did you ever
`
`·6· ·work -- have any work related to diesel engines?
`
`·7· · · A· · Diesel engine components, yes, or
`
`·8· ·components for diesel engines.
`
`·9· · · Q· · What is the difference between diesel
`
`10· ·engines and diesel engine components in your mind?
`
`11· · · A· · In my mind when an engine -- the core of
`
`12· ·the engine is just the combustion chamber and the
`
`13· ·combustion process.· I mean, of course you can
`
`14· ·understand engine to include peripherals, which are
`
`15· ·components, but my focus was on components and
`
`16· ·peripherals that are part of the engine system as a
`
`17· ·whole.
`
`18· · · Q· · Okay.· And so what components?
`
`19· · · A· · Specifically, a fuel pressure censor,
`
`20· ·combustion chamber pressure sensor.· When I was a
`
`21· ·group manager, somebody in my group was involved
`
`22· ·with noise abatement from the fuel rails.
`
`23· · · Q· · That's noise abatement?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.· Fuel rail, R-A-I-L, and fuel
`
`25· ·injectors.
`
`Page 00025
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · All right.· I'm going to go one by one.· So
`
`·2· ·with respect to fuel pressure sensors, where were
`
`·3· ·you working when you worked on that project?
`
`·4· · · A· · Delphi.
`
`·5· · · Q· · Delphi.
`
`·6· · · A· · D-E-L-P-H-I.
`
`·7· · · Q· · Do you recall the time frame?
`
`·8· · · A· · Late '90s to 2006.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Combustion sensors, where were you when you
`
`10· ·worked on that project?
`
`11· · · A· · Combustion chamber pressure sensor.· Same
`
`12· ·time frame and at Delphi.
`
`13· · · Q· · How about the noise abatement project?
`
`14· · · A· · That would be Delphi also, 2006 to 2009.
`
`15· · · Q· · And I'm sorry.· Going back to the
`
`16· ·combustion chamber sensor, what time period was
`
`17· ·that?
`
`18· · · A· · Late '90s to 2006.
`
`19· · · Q· · How about fuel injectors?
`
`20· · · A· · That would be Delphi also and that would be
`
`21· ·late '90s to mid 2000s, 2006 or so.
`
`22· · · Q· · Is that your understanding of your
`
`23· ·experience with respect to diesel engine components?
`
`24· · · A· · Yes.· I could add all the components that
`
`25· ·are generic, for instance valve trains.· Valve
`
`Page 00026
`
`
`
`·1· ·trains can be -- are used on both spark-ignition
`
`·2· ·engines and diesel engines.· I worked on those at
`
`·3· ·GM, General Motors, from 1985 to -- well, and at
`
`·4· ·Delphi later on really up until 2009 on and off.
`
`·5· · · Q· · And you called these the generic aspects of
`
`·6· ·a diesel engine?
`
`·7· · · A· · Or engines.
`
`·8· · · Q· · Or engines.· Okay.
`
`·9· · · A· · Yeah.· Valve trains are -- there is a valve
`
`10· ·train on both kind of engines.
`
`11· · · Q· · Okay.· So not specific to diesel engines,
`
`12· ·but they would be part of a diesel engine?
`
`13· · · A· · Yes.
`
`14· · · Q· · Okay.· So with respect to the I think five
`
`15· ·items -- or sorry -- four items that you worked on
`
`16· ·at Delphi with respect to components for diesel
`
`17· ·engines, all of that work was late '90s and later,
`
`18· ·correct?
`
`19· · · A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · Q· · Have you had any experience while in
`
`21· ·private industry related to glowplug controllers?
`
`22· · · A· · Not specifically, no.
`
`23· · · Q· · Anything indirectly?
`
`24· · · A· · Controllers in general, but not for
`
`25· ·glowplugs.
`
`Page 00027
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · How about in terms of your work in private
`
`·2· ·industry, anything related to glowplugs?
`
`·3· · · A· · The only thing is pressure sensors,
`
`·4· ·combustion chamber pressure sensors can be mounted
`
`·5· ·on a glowplug.· Also, at Delphi we were trying to
`
`·6· ·place it elsewhere than on the glowplug.
`
`·7· · · Q· · Do you have any -- I'm sorry.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Do you have any patents related -- or
`
`·9· ·sorry.· Strike that.
`
`10· · · · · ·Do you have any patents in your name?
`
`11· · · A· · Yes.
`
`12· · · Q· · Do any of them relate to glowplug
`
`13· ·controllers?
`
`14· · · A· · No.
`
`15· · · Q· · Do any of them relate to glowplugs?
`
`16· · · A· · No.
`
`17· · · Q· · Have you drafted any scientific articles in
`
`18· ·your experience over the last 30, 40 years?
`
`19· · · A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · Q· · Okay.· Do any of them relate to diesel
`
`21· ·engines?
`
`22· · · A· · Not directly.· I mean, as I was -- for
`
`23· ·instance, there are some that are on valve trains.
`
`24· ·That could apply to any engine.
`
`25· · · Q· · Okay.· How about any articles related to
`
`Page 00028
`
`
`
`·1· ·glowplug controllers?
`
`·2· · · A· · No.
`
`·3· · · Q· · How about any articles related to
`
`·4· ·glowplugs?
`
`·5· · · A· · No.
`
`·6· · · Q· · Go back to the patent question.· Did you
`
`·7· ·have any patents that related to diesel engines?
`
`·8· · · A· · Some are components that can be used on
`
`·9· ·diesel engines.· Patents are usually written as
`
`10· ·broadly as possible.· For instance, a sensor is a
`
`11· ·sensor.
`
`12· · · Q· · Right.· But nothing specific to a diesel
`
`13· ·engine?
`
`14· · · A· · No.
`
`15· · · Q· · Do you have any experience drafting patent
`
`16· ·claims?
`
`17· · · A· · I've worked with patent attorneys that were
`
`18· ·writing claims, and we went back and forth, so I
`
`19· ·suggested edits and so forth.
`
`20· · · Q· · Was that with respect to the patents that
`
`21· ·you were an inventor on?
`
`22· · · A· · Yes.· And also during the prosecution of
`
`23· ·these patents, you know, when there was office
`
`24· ·actions, to prepare the response.
`
`25· · · Q· · Do you know what a maintenance fee is?
`
`Page 00029
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · I know what a maintenance fee is.
`
`·2· · · Q· · What is it?
`
`·3· · · A· · The Patent Office require the applicant to
`
`·4· ·pay for -- at various stages in the prosecution of
`
`·5· ·the patent and then to issue the patent and then to
`
`·6· ·maintain the patent.
`
`·7· · · Q· · Okay.· Have you ever checked the status of
`
`·8· ·the maintenance fees on any of your patents?
`
`·9· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Objection, relevance.
`
`10· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
`
`11· · · Q· · You can answer.
`
`12· · · A· · I have checked where patents were at, and
`
`13· ·maintenance fee is one aspect of it.
`
`14· · · Q· · And how do you do that?
`
`15· · · A· · Online.
`
`16· · · Q· · Is it publicly available?
`
`17· · · A· · Yes.
`
`18· · · Q· · Would you say it's a fairly easy process?
`
`19· · · A· · Once you know where to look for it on the
`
`20· ·U.S. Patent Office web site, yes, it is.
`
`21· · · Q· · Would you expect a prosecuting attorney to
`
`22· ·be able to do that?
`
`23· · · A· · Yes.
`
`24· · · Q· · Would you expect any patent attorney to be
`
`25· ·able to do that?
`
`Page 00030
`
`
`
`·1· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · Q· · Do you know how to determine whether a
`
`·3· ·patent has expired?
`
`·4· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Objection, relevance.
`
`·5· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, it gets to be like a
`
`·6· ·legal opinion.· I can take a guess.
`
`·7· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
`
`·8· · · Q· · Yeah, go ahead.
`
`·9· · · A· · But -- well, frankly, I mean, aside from --
`
`10· ·well, there are rules about how long a patent is
`
`11· ·valid, and maintenance fee is important because you
`
`12· ·have to pay these fees at different stages, and if
`
`13· ·you don't pay these fees, then the patent expires.
`
`14· ·I guess they expire.· I don't know if that's the
`
`15· ·technical or legal term, but at that point, they
`
`16· ·become public -- in the public domain in terms of
`
`17· ·anybody can use the invention.
`
`18· · · Q· · Okay.· Thank you.· Were you asked to make
`
`19· ·any determinations in these proceedings with respect
`
`20· ·to any of the patents as to whether they were
`
`21· ·expired?
`
`22· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Objection, relevance.
`
`23· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
`
`24· · · Q· · You can answer.
`
`25· · · A· · No.
`
`Page 00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Do you know if any of the patents in these
`
`·2· ·proceedings are expired?
`
`·3· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Same objection.
`
`·4· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Frankly, I'm not sure.
`
`·5· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
`
`·6· · · Q· · Do you know if the expiration date of a
`
`·7· ·patent in a PTAB proceeding affects certain legal
`
`·8· ·standards that should be applied in those
`
`·9· ·proceedings?
`
`10· · · · · ·MS. SUMMERS:· Objection.· Outside the
`
`11· ·bounds of this witness's knowledge.
`
`12· · · · · ·MS. JANTZI:· Well, he didn't say that.
`
`13· ·BY MS. JANTZI:
`
`14· · · Q· · Do you know?
`
`15· · · A· · I've heard that it does, and I've read it.
`
`16· · · Q· · But sitting here today you're not aware of
`
`17· ·whether or not these patents are expired, the '666,
`
`18· ·the '456, or the '258?
`
`19· · · A· · My -- I don't know for sure.· My guess is
`
`20· ·they are expired.
`
`21· · · Q· · What's your guess based on?
`
`22· · · A· · I remember specifically a discussion about
`
`23· ·which standard should be used to read or to read the
`
`24· ·patent and a concept called the Phillips standard
`
`25· ·that applies differently whether -- or applies to
`
`Page 00032
`
`
`
`·1· ·expired patents or vice-versa and so forth.
`
`·2· · · Q· · So you believe that discussion was with
`
`·3· ·respect to all three patents?
`
`·4· · · A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · Q· · Thank you.· So I believe you mentioned that
`
`·6· ·you haven't done any work for a company called
`
`·7· ·Nartron in the past; is that right?
`
`·8· · · A· · That's right.
`
`·9· · · Q· · Do you know a person named Norm Rautiola?
`
`10· · · A· · No.
`
`11· · · Q· · Have you ever worked for AM General in the
`
`12· ·past?
`
`13· · · A· · No.
`
`14· · · Q· · Have you ever worked or interacted with
`
`15· ·TACOM in the past?
`
`16· · · A· · No.
`
`17· · · Q· · Do you know what I mean when I say TACOM?
`
`18· · · A· · Yes.· Tank Army Command and so forth.· They
`
`19· ·are located right next to the General Motors
`
`20· ·Technical Center in Warren, Michigan.
`
`21· · · Q· · So you've never done any work with TACOM in
`
`22· ·the past?
`
`23· · · A· · No.
`
`24· · · Q· · So you have worked at GM, though, correct?
`
`25· · · A· · Yes.
`
`Page 00033
`
`
`
`·1· · · Q· · Okay.· And when have you worked with GM?
`
`·2· · · A· · I started in 1984 and -- excuse me -- in
`
`·3· ·1999 GM split and split into -- what remained kept
`
`·4· ·the name GM and then Delphi which was a group of
`
`·5· ·component -- business of components for engines, so
`
`·6· ·I went with the Delphi branch.
`
`·7· · · Q· · And do you recall the exact dates when you
`
`·8· ·worked with General Motors in Warren, Michigan?
`
`·9· · · A· · June 1984.· I don't know when the split
`
`10· ·happened.· I'm pretty sure it was 1999.· I don't
`
`11· ·know when the formal date was because my off
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