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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`CISCO SYSTEMS, INC. AND DISH ) Case IPR
`NETWORK, LLC, et al., ) 2016-01006
` ) Patent No.
` Petitioners, ) 7,835,430
` )
`vs. ) Case IPR
` ) 2016-01007
`TQ DELTA, LLC, ) Patent No.
` ) 8,432,956
` Patent Owner. )
` ) Case IPR
` ) 2016-01008
` ) Patent No.
` ) 8,238,412
` )
` ) Case IPR
` ) 2016-01009
` ) Patent No.
` ) 8,238,412
` DEPOSITION OF DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` Phoenix, Arizona
` June 26, 2017
` 8:44 a.m.
`
`JOB NO. 125980
`REPORTED BY:
`Janice Gonzales, RPR, CRR
`AZ Certified Court
`Reporter No. 50844
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`TQ Delta Exhibit 2011
`Cisco Systems, Inc. v. TQ Delta LLC
`IPR2016-01006
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`APPEARANCES CONTINUED:
` For the Patent Owner:
` McANDREWS, HELD & MALLOY
` By: Raj Chiplunkar, Esq.
` Thomas Wimbiscus, Esq.
` 500 West Madison Street
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
`
` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` DEPOSITION OF DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`commenced at 8:44 a.m. on June 26, 2017, at Snell &
`Wilmer, LLP, 400 East Van Buren Street, One Arizona
`Center, Suite 1900, Phoenix, Arizona 85004, before
`Janice Gonzales, RPR, CRR, Arizona Certified Court
`Reporter No. 50844.
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` * * *
`
`APPEARANCES:
` For the Petitioners:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` By: John Russell Emerson, Esq.
` Gregory Huh, Esq.
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, Texas 75219
`
` DUANE MORRIS
` By: Corey Manley, Esq.
` 1075 Peachtree Street, NE
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
`
` COOLEY
` By: Stephen McBride, Esq.
` 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
` Washington, DC 20004
` (via telephone)
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` I N D E X
`Name Examination By Page
`DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR 5
` MR. EMERSON 173
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR 174
`
` E X H I B I T S
`Exhibit Description Page
`Exhibit 2009 ITU-T G.992.1 47
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` DR. SAYFE KIAEI,
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Could you please state your name for the
`record again.
` A. Good morning. My name is Sayfe Kiaei.
` Q. So, Dr. Kiaei, I'll refer to you as
`Dr. Kiaei or simply Doctor or sir. Is that okay?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. Some housekeeping. You've done
`this before. I'll take a break maybe every hour or
`so. Feel free to ask for a break whenever you think
`you need a break. Just complete answering the
`question. Speak audibly so she can get your answers
`down. So let's get started.
` A. Thank you, Counsel.
` Q. You previously submitted separate
`declarations in each of IPR 2016-01006, IPR
`2016-1007, IPR 2016-1008, and IPR 2016-1009. Is that
`correct?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. I will collectively refer to these IPRs
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`as the diag mod IPRs or simply the IPRs and the
`patents that they challenge as the diag mod patents.
`So would that be okay with you?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. I will refer to U.S. Patent No.
`7,835,430 as the '430 patent, U.S. Patent No.
`8,238,412 as the '412 patent, and U.S. Patent No.
`8,432,956 as the '956 patent. Would that be okay
`with you?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. And for the record, can you please
`confirm that you are petitioner Cisco's expert
`declarant for each of these IPRs?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. There are additional parties that have
`joined some of these IPRs. Are you aware of that?
` A. Additional parties?
` Q. Parties, yeah. Other than Cisco, a few
`other parties have joined some of these IPRs. Are
`you aware of that?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. So I take it, then, you had no
`communications with any other parties except Cisco
`and Cisco's counsel?
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`reply. Is that okay with you?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. And the opinion in this
`declaration, these are your own opinions?
` A. Yes, Counsel, they're my opinions.
` Q. Can you confirm for the record that for
`these opinions you rely for support on several new
`exhibits?
` A. The list of exhibits I have is in the
`declaration I submitted. So I have to look at it and
`see which ones are new, but...
` Q. Do you agree that there are declarations
`that you cite that are documents that you cite to in
`this present declaration that you didn't cite to in
`your prior declaration?
` A. I don't quite exactly remember. There
`may have been one or two of them, yes.
` Q. So there were one or two new references
`that you cite to in your present declaration?
` A. There were one or two references in reply
`to Mr. Chrissan's declaration. To answer those, I
`may have added one or two additional ones, from what
`I remember, but I have to look at my declaration to
`be firm about it.
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` A. I have only had communications with the
`counsels.
` Q. Okay. And can you confirm that you
`previously submitted a declaration in each of these
`IPRs in support of Cisco's petition for IPRs?
` A. Yes, Counsel, I have.
` Q. You also submitted a CV or a resume with
`your prior declaration. Are there any changes in
`that resume? Any major changes?
` A. No major changes. Two or three
`publications may have come up, but no, no major
`changes.
` Q. Okay. And you submitted a single
`declaration that was filed with petitioners' reply in
`each of these IPRs?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. And for the record, this second
`declaration has already been marked Petitioners'
`Exhibit 1100. Can you confirm that?
` A. I believe that's the correct number, but
`if you have a copy of it, I can confirm that.
` Q. I will refer to your declaration as your
`reply declaration, and you will understand that this
`is the declaration that you submitted with Cisco's
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` Q. Okay. Fair enough. For the record,
`petitioner submitted with their reply declaration
`exhibits that have already been marked 1100 through
`1111.
` You prepared for this declaration,
`Dr. Kiaei, in advance of this deposition?
` A. Yes, Counsel, I did.
` Q. Did you meet with counsel?
` A. Yes, Counsel, I did.
` Q. Did you review Dr. Chrissan's deposition
`testimony?
` A. Dr.?
` Q. Chrissan.
` A. Dr. Chrissan, yes. Yes, I did.
` Q. His declaration?
` A. I reviewed his declaration, yes.
` Q. Your prior declaration?
` A. I focused mostly on the recent
`declaration I've given. I did not look at my prior
`declaration.
` Q. So you did not look at your prior
`declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. Did you review the new references
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`that you cite to in your second declaration?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. How many hours did you take preparing for
`this deposition?
` A. I didn't add the hours. The last couple
`of weeks I've been working on this.
` Q. Couple of weeks?
` A. Yeah, the last two weeks here and there.
`Not every day, but hours here and there, so...
` Q. Okay. Fair enough. So you already
`stated that you reviewed the declaration of
`Dr. Chrissan in preparing this declaration and in
`preparing for this deposition. Were you aware that
`Dr. Chrissan was deposed on his declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you attend Dr. Chrissan's deposition?
` A. Yes, I did. That's the one in Chicago,
`right?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Yeah, I was there.
` Q. Did you help petitioners' counsel prepare
`for the deposition of Dr. Chrissan?
` A. What do you mean by "help"?
` Q. Did they consult with you prior to
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`first declaration; is that correct?
` A. No, I did not. As I said, this was in
`reference to the reply to Dr. Chrissan's statements
`in his declaration.
` Q. Is it your understanding that this book
`represents a person of ordinary skill in the art's
`understanding or the understanding of a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` A. Pertaining to materials I discussed here,
`yes.
` Q. Okay. Is it your understanding then that
`the author of this book is a person of ordinary skill
`in the art?
` A. I don't know Dr. Abe. I presume it's
`Dr. Abe -- George Abe, but I believe so, yes. I
`believe so.
` Q. So you think he's a doctor?
` A. I don't know that.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I don't know.
` Q. But you presume he's a doctor?
` A. I don't know that either. I take that
`statement back.
` Q. Okay. So you already answered this
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`Dr. Chrissan's deposition?
` A. I don't recall that. Primarily I
`attended to -- to hear what he has to say.
` Q. Okay. Do you recall the attorney for
`petitioner who deposed Dr. Chrissan?
` A. Yes, I believe that was Russ, yes. That
`would be the gentleman here.
` Q. Mr. Emerson. And like I previously
`stated, you cited to several books in your second
`declaration. One of these is Exhibit 1101 that I'll
`refer to as the Abe publication. Do you recall
`looking at this book?
` A. Yes, Counsel, I have looked at this book.
` Q. Okay. Who identified -- who identified
`this book? Your Counsel?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't actually remember.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Do you have this book in your possession?
` A. Yes, I have a copy of this book in my
`possession.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. You did not rely on this book in your
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`question, but I'm going to ask it. So during
`Dr. Chrissan's deposition, Mr. Emerson asked
`Dr. Chrissan the following question: "Are you
`familiar with this book? Are you familiar with this
`book in any way?"
` Same question to you. Prior to this --
`prior to this deposition and prior to you preparing
`your declaration, were you familiar with this book?
` A. I knew it existed, yeah. I was aware of
`the book, yeah. It was one of the books at the time
`that was available on the subject, yeah. I don't
`recall exactly how detailed I read it at the time,
`but I was aware of it.
` Q. And in your declaration that you
`submitted with the petition -- and I'm just going to
`quote for the record. You stated at paragraph 36 of
`Exhibit 1009, "In my opinion, the level of a POSITA
`needed to have the capability of understanding
`multicarrier communications and engineering
`principles applicable to the '956 patent is (1) a
`master's degree in electrical or computer engineering
`or equal while in training, and approximately five
`years of experience working in digital
`communication."
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` If I told you Mr. Abe's qualifications
`are a BA in mathematics and an MS in business
`qualitative matters, would you consider him a POSITA?
` A. I don't know Mr. Abe's background and
`resume. I think that -- first of all, I'd like to
`look at my declaration to see what I said for a
`POSITA. If you don't mind, hand me a copy of my
`declaration.
` Q. I don't have your 1009 declaration.
`That's why I just quoted it for the record.
` A. Oh, I see. Can you read that again?
` Q. "In my opinion, the level of a POSITA
`needed to have the capability of understanding
`multicarrier communications and engineering
`principles applicable to the '956 patent is (1) a
`master's degree in electrical and/or computer
`engineering or equal valid training, and (2)
`approximately five years of experience working in
`digital telecommunications."
` Under this definition, would a person
`with a BA in mathematics and an MS in business
`qualitative matters qualify as a POSITA?
` MR. EMERSON: I'm going to object to the
`form and I'm going to object as beyond the scope.
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`reference, the third full sentence. Can you read
`that into the record.
` A. On the first paragraph?
` Q. Yes.
` A. You're talking about "Frequency,
`amplitude" sentence? The third sentence under
`"Discrete Multitone"?
` Q. No, page 4, the last page.
` A. Oh, page 4 of the book, not page 4 of the
`document.
` Q. The last page of what you printed out.
` A. Oh, I see. Last page with the figure?
` Q. Yes, which has a graph on it.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. That would be page 69 of the Abe
`reference, the third full sentence. Could you please
`read that into the record.
` A. The third full sentence is "One of the
`noisiest debates" you're talking about?
` The first sentence is "Multicarrier
`techniques have a latency." The second sentence is
`"In the DMT case for ADSL."
` Q. Now, the third sentence.
` A. The third sentence is "So no bit can
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` THE WITNESS: First of all, in the POSITA
`I said that it was a master's in electrical
`engineering and computer engineering or equivalent.
`Number 2, I don't have Mr. Abe's -- Mr. Abe's resume
`in front of me, but in general, a person with a
`background in mathematics and statistics would, and
`having a background in other areas related to that
`would understand some of the concepts that are
`discussed here.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So are you changing your definition of a
`POSITA then?
` A. No, I'm not. I said equivalent.
` Q. So you're supplementing your definition
`of a POSITA then?
` A. No, I'm not, Counsel.
` Q. So bachelor's in mathematics is
`equivalent to a degree in electrical engineering?
` A. As I said, I need to look at his resume
`and his publications. Having published -- having
`published this book which is a second edition of a
`book in residential broadband and having read what I
`have read here, I have to look at his resume.
` Q. Okay. Let's turn to page 4 of the Abe
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`travel faster than allowed by 4 kilohertz even if the
`line was perfectly clean."
` Q. Can you explain to me what it means when
`you say "no bit can travel faster than allowed by
`4 kilohertz"?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: This is outside -- first of
`all, what he's talking about here is that the delays
`-- because of the fact that each one of the subbands
`have a limited bandwidth, the delays of transmitting
`data is limited to this 4 kilohertz's bandwidth.
`That's what my understanding and a POSITA's
`understanding of this is. The data rate for each one
`of these subbands is limited. The bandwidth of this
`is limited to 4 kilohertz.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So the maximum bandwidth of 80 SL is
`4 kilohertz?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. I'll rephrase that. Is it your
`understanding that the maximum bandwidth of 80 SL is
`4 kilohertz?
` A. No, that's not what it's talking about.
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`It is talking about each one of the subbands is a
`4-kilohertz subband. Each one of these subbands or
`subfrequencies or subchannels are band-limited. When
`they are band-limited, then it's talking about simply
`the fact that the bandwidth of each one of these
`subbands is a 4-kilohertz bandwidth. It's not
`talking about the overall ADSL bandwidth, so...
` Q. So your understanding is that using ADSL,
`a bit cannot travel faster than 4 kilohertz?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: That's not what I said and
`that's not what that sentence says. As an expert in
`this field and also as a POSITA reading this thing
`will know that they're talking about the bandwidth of
`each one of these subbands or subchannels or
`subfrequencies is 4 kilohertz. Therefore, what it's
`talking about here is that each bandwidth of each one
`of these modulated QAM signals in these subbands is
`limited. That's all it's saying.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. It is saying no bit can travel faster
`than allowed by 4 kilohertz. Is 4 kilohertz a
`measure of speed?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`subbands can be -- can be sent.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. What's the significance of 4 kilohertz?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Kilohertz is a frequency.
`It's cycles per second.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. What is the significance of 4 kilohertz
`in this sentence?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Overall, in this sentence
`related to this paragraph, the 4 kilohertz relates to
`the bandwidth of each one of these subbands which is
`showing that it's band-limited within this subband
`and within this frequency: this bandwidth, 4
`kilohertz.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Is 4 kilohertz the spacing between
`carriers?
` A. We're not talking about carriers here
`right now. We're talking about 256 subbands. That's
`what the book is talking about of 4 kilohertz which
`is the bandwidth of each one of these subchannels.
`And it's talking about that because each one of those
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` THE WITNESS: You have to read the
`sentence in context of the whole paragraph and in the
`context of the entire discussion of the multicarrier.
`A POSITA will know that a multicarrier OFDM so forth
`-- multicarrier will consist of subbands. Each one
`of these subbands is limited to 4 kilohertz's
`bandwidth. Therefore, the bandwidth of each one of
`these subbands is limited to 4 kilohertz. That's all
`it's saying.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Are you refusing to answer my question
`which states: Is 4 kilohertz a measure of speed?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Kilohertz -- 4 kilohertz is
`a measure of bandwidth, but also within that
`information it says that within that bandwidth, what
`is the signal going to be residing in?
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So 4 kilohertz is not a measure of speed?
` MR. EMERSON: Form.
` THE WITNESS: 4 kilohertz is a bandwidth
`of each one of these subchannels and also it would
`represent the bandwidth or the rate at which -- the
`rate at which data can be -- within each one of these
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`subchannels is band-limited to 4 kilohertz. Within
`each one of these subchannels, the maximum frequency
`that they can operate is within the 4-kilohertz
`bandwidth.
` Q. So you said here, and I quote, "We're not
`talking about carriers right now. We're talking
`about 256 subbands." So you make a distinction
`between carriers and subbands?
` A. No, that's not -- specifically, I was
`just reading what they said. In my opinion, subbands
`and carriers in OFDM are -- and ADSL -- and ADSL are
`the same. So the subband, subchannel,
`subfrequencies, tones, and carriers consist of the
`representation of each one of these subbands that it
`shows.
` Q. Okay. I understand that. I'm going back
`to your answer that you just gave me.
` A. You did not let me finish. Please let me
`finish.
` MR. EMERSON: Yeah, let's let him finish
`his answer. Okay?
` THE WITNESS: So if you look at the
`Figure 2.7, what it has is that it shows the -- from
`0 to 1 megahertz, it shows a number of subchannels
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`and subcarriers or carriers, each one of them having
`a 4-kilohertz bandwidth.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. I'm going to go back to your testimony
`here. You said, "We are not talking about carriers
`here right now. We are talking about 256 subbands."
` A. I was specifically --
` Q. There is no pending question, sir. There
`is no question.
` A. Let me finish my sentence here. That's
`not what I said. What I said was and what I meant
`was in the -- specifically, I was reading the
`sentence. I said in the sentence there are 256
`subbands of 4 kilohertz each. These subbands are
`carriers of the ADSL. So in my opinion,
`subbands/carriers are the same thing.
` Q. So then you were wrong when you said, "We
`are not talking about carriers here right now. We
`are talking about subbands"?
` A. No, I'm not wrong, Counsel. What I was
`saying in there is I was specifically reading this
`sentence in here. I was not interpreting it. In the
`sentence it said 256 subbands. As a POSITA, I will
`read it at 256 subbands or subcarriers or carriers or
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` Q. Do you know what OFDM is, sir?
` A. Yes, I do, Counsel.
` Q. Do you understand the concept of
`orthogonality?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to scope.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Let me rephrase that. Let me withdraw
`that question.
` What is OFDM an acronym for?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to scope.
` THE WITNESS: OFDM in general stands for
`orthogonal frequency division multiplexing.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. And what is DMT, sir?
` MR. EMERSON: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: DMT stands for discrete
`multitone.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Is there any difference between DMT and
`OFDM?
` MR. EMERSON: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: That's a very general
`question. Can you be more specific with
`"difference"?
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`tones or subchannels. So if you're trying to change
`my words, that's not what I said. I said -- what I
`meant was specifically in this sentence in here, he's
`not talking about -- he did not mention carriers. As
`a POSITA reading this paragraph, I will read this as
`subband, the same as a carrier, same as a subchannel,
`same as subfrequency.
` Q. What's the significance -- back to my
`question. Is 4 kilohertz the spacing between
`carriers, or is 4 kilohertz the spacing between
`subbands?
` A. The subbands are adjacent to each other.
`Each one of them has 4 kilohertz's bandwidth. There
`is no spacing in between it. Empty spacing, if
`that's what you're talking about. As the figure
`shows, 2.7, each one of the subbands with the arrow
`on the first one called subband with the No. 16 QAM,
`quadrature amplitude modulation, that is 4 kilohertz,
`and the next one adjacent to that is 4 kilohertz and
`so forth.
` So I would -- if what you mean is by
`spacing in between it, there is no empty spacing in
`between it. They're adjacent to each other. Each
`one of them is 4 kilohertz's bandwidth.
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`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Are the carriers in DMT -- are the
`carriers in DMT required to be orthogonal to each
`other?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Again, depends on the
`implementation of DMT. Depends. You have to be
`specific. There are many ways to implement DMT.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So it is your understanding that in DMT
`the carriers don't have to be orthogonal?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to the scope.
`Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: That's not what I said.
`What I said was DMT stands for discrete multitone.
`OFDM stands for orthogonal frequency division
`multiplexing. You need to narrow your question more
`specifically what you mean by that.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. We'll get back to that when we get to
`your declaration. I'm going to hand you -- before we
`get there -- so coming back to Mr. Abe who has a --
`I'm representing has a BA in mathematics, did you
`investigate the background of all the other authors
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`of these references?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't remember. Some of
`them I know; some of them I may know -- I may not
`know. No, I didn't.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Do you did not investigate the background
`of the authors of these books to make sure they were
`-- they were sources that you could actually use to
`explain the understanding of a POSITA?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I mean, this is more
`specific than the previous question. If your
`question is that did I look at that these people are
`-- represent POSITAs? Yeah, I had an understanding
`of their publications and their background and if
`they qualified as a POSITA or expert in the field.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. But you didn't do it for Mr. Abe?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I did not look at the
`specifics of his resume, but I have seen his book,
`and -- the second edition and the first edition of
`the book he had, and it's a good source that many
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`expressly in your Declaration 1009?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to form. I mean,
`do you have his declaration?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: I don't.
` MR. EMERSON: Okay. Is he supposed to
`remember all this stuff?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: He gave me an
`affirmative answer that he did, so I'm just
`confirming.
` MR. EMERSON: Okay. All right.
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: Is it okay to confirm
`or --
` MR. EMERSON: Well, I mean, if you can
`ask him about his original dec -- first of all, I
`think it's beyond the scope; and secondly, I'd prefer
`if you had it for him. Do you not have it?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: No, I don't.
` MR. EMERSON: Okay.
` THE WITNESS: So you're talking about --
`sorry. I misunderstood your question. You're
`talking about the first declaration I had?
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Yes.
` A. No, I did not refer to this cite on the
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`people in DSL were aware of it. When I was in the
`standards, many people were aware of it, and he -- he
`knows the subject well and I believe he is a POSITA
`in this case.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So Mr. Abe who has a BA in mathematics
`and an MS in business qualitative matters is a
`POSITA?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I believe he understands --
`sorry. I believe that Mr. Abe has an understanding
`of DSL and technologies here, and I would consider
`him a POSITA, yes.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. I'm going to hand you what has previously
`been marked Petitioners' Exhibit 1108, the Elahi
`reference.
` A. Thank you, Counsel.
` Q. Do you recognize this reference, sir?
` A. Yes, I do, Counsel.
` Q. Did you cite this reference in your
`opening declaration that was marked Exhibit 1009?
` A. Yes, I did, Counsel.
` Q. You did cite to the Elahi reference
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`first declaration, from what I remember. I don't
`remember exactly.
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: My question was: Did he
`cite to this reference in his first declaration?
` MR. EMERSON: Do you have that dec?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: No, I don't.
` MR. EMERSON: Okay.
` THE WITNESS: I don't remember this.
`Sorry, this is not a memory test, so I don't remember
`that.
`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. So let's look at page 109 of the Elahi
`reference.
` A. Okay.
` MR. EMERSON: I object. This is beyond
`the scope. Is it in his second declaration?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: It is. It is in his
`second declaration.
` MR. EMERSON: Okay. Why don't you hand
`him the second declaration?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: No, let me get to the
`second declaration when I get to the second
`declaration.
` MR. EMERSON: All right.
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`BY MR. CHIPLUNKAR:
` Q. Okay. Let's go to page 109. Can I
`direct your attention to the first full sentence of
`the first paragraph on that page.
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. And I'm going to read this into
`the record, and I quote, "Each subfrequency is an
`independent channel and has its own stream of
`signals." Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. You agree that the word "signals"
`in that statement is the plural for the word
`"signal"?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
` Q. Okay. Let's go to page 108 of the Elahi
`reference. May I ask you to look at the last
`paragraph there. I'm going to read the first full
`sentence into the record. It goes, and I quote,
`"ADSL uses discrete multitone encoding matters, which
`use QAM to divide the bandwidth of the channel into
`multiple subchannels, with each channel transmitting
`information using QAM modulation." Did I read that
`correctly?
` A. Yes, Counsel.
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`on that each subfrequency is an independent channel
`and has its own stream of signals. Actually, you did
`read that. I apologize.
` Q. Yes.
` A. So in here actually it is not only
`equating subfrequency with channel and subchannel, it
`is reaffirming my position I had in my declaration.
` Q. Yes, thank you for that. Coming back to
`my next question, do you understand Elahi's
`subchannels to be the subchannels recited in the
`claims?
` MR. EMERSON: Objection to form.
`Objection to scope.
` THE WITNESS: Can you be more specific?
`In the