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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` -----------------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` -----------------------------
` CISCO SYSTEMS, INC. AND DISH NETWORK, LLC,
` Petitioner,
` V.
` TQ DELTA, LLC,
` Patent Owner
` ----------------------------
` Case IPR2016-01006
` Patent No. 7,835,430
` ----------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` Richardson, Texas
` February 8, 2017
`
`Reported by: Susan S. Klinger, RMR-CRR, CSR
`Job No. 118651
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TQ Delta Exhibit 2005
`Cisco Systems, Inc. v. TQ Delta LLC
`IPR2016-01006
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` -----------------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` -----------------------------
` CISCO SYSTEMS, INC. AND DISH NETWORK, LLC,
` Petitioner,
` V.
` TQ DELTA, LLC,
` Patent Owner
` ----------------------------
` Case IPR2016-01006
` Patent No. 7,835,430
` ----------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. SAYFE KIAEI
` Richardson, Texas
` February 8, 2017
`
`Reported by: Susan S. Klinger, RMR-CRR, CSR
`Job No. 118651
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`TQ Delta Exhibit 2005
`Cisco Systems, Inc. v. TQ Delta LLC
`IPR2016-01006
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` -----------------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` -----------------------------
` CISCO SYSTEMS, INC.
` Petitioner,
` V.
` TQ DELTA, LLC,
` Patent Owner
` ----------------------------
` Case IPR2016-01007
` Patent No. 8,432,956
` ----------------------------
` Case IPR2016-01008
` Patent No. 8,238,412
` ----------------------------
` Case IPR2016-01009
` Patent No. 8,238,412
`
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`Page 3
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` February 8, 2017
` 9:05 a.m.
`
` Deposition of Dr. Sayfe Kiaei, held at the
`offices of Haynes and Boone, 2505 North Plano
`Road, Suite 4000, Richardson, Texas 75082,
`before Susan S. Klinger, a Registered Merit
`Reporter and Certified Realtime Reporter of the
`State of Texas.
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`Attorneys for Petitioner:
` John Russell Emerson, Esq.
` Gregory Huh, Esq.
` Theodore Foster, Esq.
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, Texas 75219
`
`
`Attorneys for Patent Owner:
` Christopher Scharff, Esq.
` Raj Chiplunkar, Esq.
` McANDREWS, HELD & MALLOY
` 500 West Madison Street
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
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`Attorneys for DISH Network:
`(Appearing telephonically)
` Stephen McBride, Esq.
` COOLEY
` 11951 Freedom Drive
` Reston, Virginia 20190
`
`Attorneys for Comcast, Cox, Time Warner Cable
`and Arris:
`(Appearing telephonically)
` Corey Manley, Esq.
` Duane Morris
` 1075 Peachtree Street
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
` I N D E X
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`WITNESS PAGE
`
`DR. SAYFE KIAEI
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHARFF 7
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Exhibits not attached.)
`No. Description Page
`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent 8,432,956 37
`Exhibit 1009 Declaration 8,432,956 17
`Exhibit 1009 Declaration 7,835,430 17
`Exhibit 1009 Declaration 8,238,412 18
`Exhibit 1010 Kiaei curriculum vitae 7
`Exhibit 1011 U.S. Patent 6,636,603 35
`Exhibit 1012 U.S. Patent 6,891,803 23
`Exhibit 1014 ASNI T1.413-1995 79
`Exhibit 2003 U.S. Application 57
` Publication 2005/0190826
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` DR. SAYFE KIAEI,
`having been first duly sworn testified as
`follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. SCHARFF: 09:05
` Q. Good morning. We already have 09:05
`counsel information on the record then. Could 09:07
`you please state and spell your name, please? 09:07
` A. Good morning. Sayfe Kiaei, 09:07
`S-A-Y-F-E, last name is K-I-A-E-I. 09:07
` Q. And what is your home address? 09:07
` A. 13325 North Manzanita Lane, Fountain 09:07
`Hills, Arizona 85268. 09:07
` Q. And you are being offered as an 09:07
`expert witness in the IPRs designated 09:07
`IPR2016-001006, 1007, 1008 and 1009; is that 09:07
`right? 09:07
` A. Yes, I am. 09:07
` Q. What is your area of expertise? 09:07
` A. Communications, signal processing, 09:07
`electronics. 09:07
` Q. I'm going to show you what has 09:07
`previously been marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 09:07
`1010. 09:07
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` MR. SCHARFF: I apologize, I didn't 09:08
` know how many courtesy copies to bring. 09:08
` MR. EMERSON: That's fine. 09:08
` Q. Do you recognize this document? 09:08
` A. Yes, counsel. 09:08
` Q. And what is this document? 09:08
` A. This is my resume. 09:08
` Q. And is it a true and accurate copy 09:08
`of your resume? 09:08
` A. It is. There may be some minor 09:08
`mistakes in there, but it is, yes. 09:08
` Q. On the first page it lists your 09:08
`education degrees; is that right? 09:08
` A. Yes. 09:08
` Q. So you have a Ph.D. in electrical 09:08
`and computer engineering that you received in 09:08
`1987 from Washington State University; is that 09:08
`right? 09:08
` A. Yes, it is, counsel. 09:08
` Q. And then after that in the document 09:08
`it lists starting with the most recent and then 09:08
`going backwards industrial positions and then 09:08
`academic positions; is that right? 09:08
` A. Yes, counsel. 09:09
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` Q. So let's start with your first 09:09
`academic position after your Ph.D. It looks 09:09
`like you did a post doc that was also at 09:09
`Washington State University; is that right? 09:09
` A. What page are you on? 09:09
` Q. On page 3, the bottom of the 09:09
`academic positions section? 09:09
` A. Yes. 09:09
` Q. Was that concurrent with your Ph.D.? 09:09
` A. Yes, yes. I was a lecturer for one 09:09
`term, yes. 09:09
` Q. So then your first position after 09:09
`your Ph.D. you were codirector of NSF Center 09:09
`for the Design of Analog/Digital IC's; is that 09:09
`right? 09:09
` A. That was in conjunction with my 09:09
`position as a professor at Oregon State 09:10
`University. So while I was a professor there, 09:10
`I was also a codirector of the NSF Center. 09:10
` Q. Okay. And what does IC stand for? 09:10
` A. IC is integrated circuits. 09:10
` Q. And can you describe the technology 09:10
`that you worked on at the NSF Center? 09:10
` A. Yes. The technologies that the 09:10
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`center addressed was integrated circuits and 09:10
`systems integrating communications systems, 09:10
`control systems, etcetera. 09:10
` Q. Was your research during that time 09:10
`period in 1987 to '95 specifically directed to 09:10
`DSL communications at all? 09:10
` A. At that timeframe my work was not 09:10
`directly on DSL. 09:10
` Q. And then, then from 1987 to '93 you 09:10
`mentioned that you were also an associate 09:11
`professor at Oregon State University; is that 09:11
`right? 09:11
` A. That is correct, counsel. 09:11
` Q. And did you also do research at 09:11
`Oregon State University? 09:11
` A. Yes, I did, counsel. 09:11
` Q. What did that research relate to? 09:11
` A. That research was on signal 09:11
`processing, communications, digital signal 09:11
`processing, and wireless systems. 09:11
` Q. And did any of your research at 09:11
`Oregon State University relate to DSL 09:11
`communications in particular? 09:11
` A. The work I did there -- many aspects 09:11
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`of the work there related to communications and 09:11
`signal processing algorithms and tools. Some 09:11
`of this technology was used in DSL, some of the 09:12
`same algorithms, some of the same concepts and 09:12
`so on, but I did not work directly on DSL at 09:12
`that time. 09:12
` Q. It looks like your next position 09:12
`after 1993 did you leave Oregon State 09:12
`University in 1993? 09:12
` A. Yes, I did. 09:12
` Q. And it looks like you went to 09:12
`Motorola at that time; is that right? 09:12
` A. Yes, I did, counsel. 09:12
` Q. And why did you leave Oregon State 09:12
`University? 09:12
` A. I actually received my tenure and 09:12
`despite that I decided I want to go to industry 09:12
`to gain experience building and understanding 09:12
`technology more in-depth. 09:12
` Q. And that looks like it involved a 09:12
`move from Oregon to Texas; is that right? 09:13
` A. I was in Florida for part of the 09:13
`time and Texas. 09:13
` Q. So then at Motorola it lists from 09:13
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`1993 to '97 looks like it was -- your first 09:13
`position there looks like you were a baseband 09:13
`RF products DSP IC engineer; is that right? 09:13
` A. I worked on digital signal 09:13
`processing that we did for both wireless and 09:13
`some of the wireline communications both. 09:13
` Q. And in particular during the '93 to 09:13
`'97 timeframe your resume states that you 09:13
`worked on baseband IC for wireless digital 09:13
`two-way radios; is that right? 09:13
` A. That was part of my job, yes. 09:13
` Q. During this timeframe in particular 09:13
`when you were a baseband RF products DSP IC 09:14
`engineer, did you work directly on DSL 09:14
`communication systems at all? 09:14
` A. Yes, I did. From '95 to '97 I was 09:14
`involved with some of the standards that I 09:14
`helped Motorola in various communication areas 09:14
`and one of them was DSL. 09:14
` Q. Then from '97 to '99 your resume 09:14
`states that you worked in the Semiconductor 09:14
`Product Sector, ADSL Group, System & 09:14
`Architecture Engineering, Broadband Products 09:14
`Operations; is that right? 09:14
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` A. Yes. 09:14
` Q. And in particular, one of the things 09:14
`that it states that you worked on was an ADSL 09:14
`transceiver; is that right? 09:14
` A. Yes. 09:14
` Q. And in particular, was the 09:14
`CopperGold is that the name of the ADSL 09:14
`transceiver? 09:14
` A. CopperGold was the -- yes, the chip 09:14
`we designed that was an ADSL transceiver we had 09:14
`in Motorola. 09:15
` Q. Was CopperGold the name of the chip 09:15
`or the modem? 09:15
` A. CopperGold was the name of the -- 09:15
`I'm not sure if that was a marketing name, but 09:15
`overall it was the Motorola DSL transceiver 09:15
`products. 09:15
` Q. And was the CopperGold product an 09:15
`ANSI T1.413 compliant device? 09:15
` A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 09:15
` Q. Then in 1999 it looks like you 09:15
`switched to work in Motorola's cellular 09:15
`division; is that right? 09:15
` A. Yes, the position -- yes, the job I 09:15
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`had at the time was I was asked to work in the 09:15
`cellular division, yes. 09:15
` Q. And so during that timeframe from 09:15
`1999 to 2002 did you work anymore on DSL 09:16
`communication systems? 09:16
` A. Indirectly, yes. I was a Motorola 09:16
`-- I was a senior engineer and technical senior 09:16
`member of technical staff so I was still 09:16
`involved in many aspects of the projects we had 09:16
`in DSL. I was still at Motorola, so I did not 09:16
`-- even though the project assigned to me was 09:16
`changed, it was an abrupt change. I was still 09:16
`letting go of some of the work going out. So I 09:16
`was still working on some of that stuff, yes. 09:16
` Q. And then your CV states that 09:16
`starting in 2001 to the present you have been a 09:16
`professor and director of NSF Wireless Research 09:16
`Center at Arizona State University; is that 09:16
`right? 09:16
` A. That's correct. Again, like similar 09:16
`to the Oregon position I joined ASU as a 09:16
`professor and then I started the center called 09:17
`Connection One, which was communications in 09:17
`general but wireless was one of the main 09:17
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`focuses. 09:17
` Q. And did your employment at ASU 09:17
`overlap with your employment at Motorola at 09:17
`all? 09:17
` A. It partly did, yes. 09:17
` Q. Were you telecommuting during that 09:17
`time? 09:17
` A. Partly, yes. And I was also 09:17
`consulting for at least for two to three years 09:17
`because again, the same concept I was 09:17
`relatively senior with them. I wanted to make 09:17
`sure the projects we have they continue them. 09:17
` Q. And why did you leave Motorola, 09:17
`then, to work at ASU? 09:17
` A. They gave me a good offer at ASU. I 09:17
`always wanted to be an academic clinician and I 09:17
`left Oregon to gain experience in industry for 09:17
`10 years. And I accomplished that and a good 09:18
`opportunity came and I joined Arizona State. 09:18
` Q. So you left on good terms? You left 09:18
`Motorola on good terms? 09:18
` A. Absolutely excellent terms still to 09:18
`this day. 09:18
` Q. Now, we previously discussed that 09:18
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`you are an expert on the IPR proceedings 09:18
`IPR2016-001006, 1007, 1008 and 1009. You 09:18
`submitted a declaration in support of each of 09:18
`those IPRs; is that right? 09:18
` A. Yes, counsel. 09:18
` Q. Let's pull those out. In particular 09:18
`it looks like you submitted three declaration 09:18
`in support of four IPR petitions; is that 09:18
`right? 09:18
` A. Yes, counsel. Two declarations or 09:18
`four declarations? 09:18
` Q. Three declarations in support of 09:18
`four IPR petitions, three different patents; is 09:18
`that correct? 09:19
` A. That's correct. 09:19
` Q. It looks like my paralegal gave me 09:19
`four copies, two of them I think are repeats. 09:19
`Starting with IPR number 2016-01006. You 09:19
`submitted a declaration entitled declaration of 09:20
`Dr. Sayfe -- and I'm going to mangle your last 09:20
`name again, it is Kiaei? 09:20
` A. Kiaei, yes. 09:20
` Q. Kiaei. Under 37 C.F.R. 168 in 09:20
`support of petition for inter partes review of 09:20
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`U.S. Patent 7,835,430. Do you recognize this 09:20
`document? 09:20
` A. Yes, I do, counsel. 09:20
` Q. Is that your declaration, an 09:20
`accurate copy of your declaration with respect 09:20
`to the '430 patent? And by the way, if I refer 09:21
`to the patent numbers by the last three 09:21
`numbers, for example '430 patent will you know 09:21
`what I'm referring to? 09:21
` A. Yes, I do. You are referring to 09:21
`7,835,430. 09:21
` Q. Is that a true and accurate copy of 09:21
`your, of your declaration for the IPR 09:21
`addressing the '430 patent? 09:21
` A. Yes, it seems like it. 09:21
` Q. And just for the record that was 09:21
`marked as Petitioner's Exhibit 1009 in the IPR 09:21
`number 2016-01006. 09:21
` Next I'm going to show you what has 09:21
`been marked as Exhibit 1009 in IPR2016-01007. 09:21
`Do you recognize this document? 09:22
` A. Yes, I do, counsel. 09:22
` Q. And what is that document? 09:22
` A. It is my declaration of Sayfe Kiaei 09:22
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`in support of the petition for IPR review of 09:22
`U.S. Patent 8,432,956. 09:22
` Q. And is that a true and accurate copy 09:22
`of that declaration? 09:22
` A. Yes, it seems like it. 09:22
` Q. And I'm going to show you another 09:23
`document marked as Exhibit 1009 in 09:23
`IPR2016-01008. Do you recognize that document? 09:23
` A. Yes, I do. 09:23
` Q. And what is that document? 09:23
` A. It is a declaration, my declaration 09:23
`in support of the petition for IPR of U.S. 09:23
`Patent 8,238,412. 09:23
` Q. Now, that declaration, you submitted 09:23
`that same declaration in two IPR proceedings; 09:23
`is that right, the 1008 proceeding and the 1009 09:23
`proceeding? 09:24
` A. Yes, counsel. 09:24
` Q. How much time did you spend 09:24
`preparing these three declarations? 09:24
` A. I can't tell you accurately how much 09:24
`time, all three documents? 09:24
` Q. All together, do you have an 09:24
`estimate? 09:24
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
` A. They went on for a while. Not off 09:24
`the top of my head I can -- no. 09:24
` Q. Do you recall approximately how much 09:24
`you billed for the preparation of these three 09:24
`declarations? 09:24
` A. It was over several different bills. 09:24
`I can't -- again off the top of my head I can't 09:24
`tell you that, but... 09:24
` Q. Do you recall if it was more than 09:24
`$20,000? 09:24
` A. I can't say that, sorry, counsel. 09:24
` Q. Okay. Well, let's go to your 09:24
`declaration for IPR2016-00106. This is the 09:25
`declaration in support of Cisco's IPR petition 09:25
`with respect to U.S. Patent Number 7,835,430; 09:25
`correct? 09:25
` A. Yes, counsel. 09:25
` Q. Now, if you go to the table of 09:25
`contents there is a section that you have there 09:25
`called, "Detailed invalidity analysis." Do you 09:25
`see that? Sorry, if you could answer audibly? 09:25
` A. Yes, yes, counsel. 09:25
` Q. And then under "Detailed Invalidity 09:25
`Analysis," there is a section entitled, 09:25
`
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`"Background on Prior Art References." Do you 09:25
`see that? 09:25
` A. Yes, I see that. 09:25
` Q. And you address four prior art 09:25
`references, Milbrandt, Chang, Hwang and ANSI 09:25
`T1.413; is that correct? 09:26
` A. Yes, counsel, that is correct. 09:26
` Q. Now, in your declaration for the 09:26
`'430 patent, you assert just one ground of 09:26
`alleged unpatentability for the '430 patent 09:26
`claims; is that right? In particular that is 09:26
`your opinions that Claims 1 through 6 are 09:26
`obvious over Milbrandt, Chang, Hwang and ANSI 09:26
`T1.413? 09:26
` A. Can you tell me the page number? 09:26
` Q. I'm still in the table of contents 09:26
`Section VII.B? 09:26
` A. Yes, that's correct. 09:26
` Q. And that single ground, Claims 1 09:26
`through 6 are obvious over Milbrandt, Chang, 09:26
`Hwang and ANSI T1.413 that I'm referring to in 09:26
`the table of contents, that is an accurate 09:26
`representation of the ground that you allege in 09:26
`your declaration in the body of it; correct? 09:26
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
` A. Yes, counsel. I may elaborate this 09:27
`more on page 4 of my declaration. 09:27
` Q. Now, in the body of your opinion 09:27
`among other things, it is your opinion that 09:27
`Milbrandt discloses technology for testing a 09:27
`telephone line used for DSL service and 09:27
`transmitting that test information from a 09:27
`customer premises modem to a central office 09:27
`modem; is that right? 09:27
` A. To be more specific, on my 09:27
`declaration page 28 I do describe Milbrandt 09:27
`describes technology that allows a DSL service 09:28
`provider to test the telephone line to deliver 09:28
`services, service to its customers. That is 09:28
`what I do claim, yes. 09:28
` Q. And in particular, in your opinion, 09:28
`Milbrandt discloses an ability to transmit test 09:28
`information from a customer modem to a central 09:28
`office modem; is that right? For example, in 09:28
`paragraph 75 of your declaration third line in 09:28
`that paragraph you describe the noise 09:28
`measurements and other information are 09:28
`transmitted from the customer's premises to the 09:28
`service provider's central office over the same 09:28
`
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`telephone lines used to provide DSL services; 09:28
`is that right? 09:28
` A. That particular paragraph you 09:28
`brought up it is correct, yes. The noise 09:28
`information and other information are 09:29
`transmitted from the customer premises to the 09:29
`service provider's central office over the same 09:29
`telephone lines to provide DSL service. 09:29
` Q. And then separately in your 09:29
`declaration you provide an opinion that the 09:29
`Chang reference discloses testing in particular 09:29
`background noise; is that accurate? 09:29
` A. If you go to page 29 of my 09:29
`declaration I say that, "Chang is directed to 09:29
`evaluating a telephone line for its ability to 09:29
`support DSL services. Chang describes a device 09:29
`for testing digital telecommunication networks. 09:29
`Among the tests the device can perform is a 09:29
`measurement of 'background noise.'" 09:29
` Q. In particular, you state on the 09:29
`following sentence that, "During this test, a 09:29
`device on the far end of the telephone line 09:29
`simply terminates the line with a 09:30
`characteristic impedence, thereby ensuring that 09:30
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`no signals are being transmitted." Then you go 09:30
`on and you say, "A device on the near end of 09:30
`the telephone line then measures the background 09:30
`noise present on the line." 09:30
` Did I read that correctly? 09:30
` A. Yes, counsel, you read that 09:30
`correctly. 09:30
` Q. So Chang doesn't disclose 09:30
`transmitting its background noise measurement 09:30
`from a customer modem to a service provider 09:30
`central office; correct? The background noise 09:30
`is just measured on the near end? 09:30
` A. Can I get the exhibit for Chang -- 09:30
` Q. Sure. 09:32
` A. -- please? 09:32
` Q. I will show you what has been marked 09:33
`as Petitioner's Exhibit CSCO-1012, 1012, in the 09:33
`IPR2016-01006, the Chang reference? 09:33
` A. Thank you. A person of skill in the 09:33
`art in Chang, reading Chang discusses DSL and 09:36
`DSL modems as well in there. And a person of 09:36
`ordinary skill in the art would have been able 09:36
`to understand that in Chang when it's measuring 09:36
`the background noise it also talks about 09:36
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` KIAEI - 2/8/17
`additional details about memory, executable 09:36
`software, being able to utilize DSL modem. 09:36
` So a POSITA would have been able to 09:36
`see that using Chang's methodology that it 09:36
`teaches how to measure background noise. A 09:36
`POSITA would have also been able to understand 09:36
`that it teaches how to use that as well as 09:36
`sending information from the DSL at the modem 09:36
`and the remote to the central office. 09:36
` Q. That wasn't what I asked you. What 09:36
`I asked you is does Chang actually disclose 09:36
`transmitting background noise from a customer 09:36
`modem to a central office modem? 09:37
` A. It
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