`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Exhibit 1 01 7
`
`Exhibit 1017
`
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` ________________________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _________________________________
`
` TALARI NETWORKS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` FATPIPE NETWORKS INDIA LIMITED,
`
` Patent Owner
`
` _______________________________________
`
` Case IPR 2016-00976
`
` Patent 6,775,235 B2
`
` and
`
` IPR 2016-00977
`
` Patent 7,406,048 B2
`
` _______________________________________
`
` Deposition of JOEL WILLIAMS, taken at
`
` 1940 Duke Street, Alexandria, Virginia,
`
` commencing at 9:30 a.m., Wednesday, May 10,
`
` 2017, before Felicia A. Newland, CSR,
`
` a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth
`
` of Virginia.
`
`JOB No. 2605198
`
`PAGES 1 - 212
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 1
`
`
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
`O n b e h a l f o f P e t i t i o n e r :
`
` B Y : T H O M A S F . F I T Z P A R T R I C K , E S Q .
`
` C H A R L E S F . K O C H , E S Q .
`
` P e p p e r H a m i l t o n , L L P
`
` 3 3 3 T w i n D o l p h i n D r i v e , S u i t e 4 0 0
`
` R e d w o o d C i t y , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 0 6 5
`
` ( 6 5 0 ) 8 0 2 - 3 6 0 0
`
` f i t z p a t r i c k t @ p e p p e r l a w . c o m
`
` k o c h c @ p e p p e r l a w . c o m
`
`O n b e h a l f o f t h e P a t e n t O w n e r :
`
` B Y : R O B E R T C . M A T T S O N , E S Q .
`
` O b l o n , M c C l e l l a n d , M a i e r & N e u s t a d t , L L P
`
` 1 9 4 0 D u k e S t r e e t
`
` A l e x a n d r i a , V i r g i n i a 2 2 3 1 4
`
` c d o c k e t m a t t s o n @ o b l o n . c o m
`
`A l s o p r e s e n t f o r P a t e n t O w n e r :
`
` M i c h a e l W e s t
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`1 0
`
`1 1
`
`1 2
`
`1 3
`
`1 4
`
`1 5
`
`1 6
`
`1 7
`
`1 8
`
`1 9
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`2 2
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 2
`
`
`
` C O N T E N T S
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`
` Counsel for Petitioner 4
`
` Counsel for Patent Owner 205
`
` Counsel for Petitioner 210
`
`WILLIAMS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
`
`Exhibit 1 Notecard, handwritten companies
`
` and dates from Joel Williams
`
`Exhibit 2 Handwritten notes, Joel Williams
`
`Exhibit 1001-235 U.S. Patent US 6,775,235 B2
`
`Exhibit 1003-048 U.S. Patent US 7,406,048 B2
`
`Exhibit 2003-235 Declaration of Joel Williams
`
` in Patent 6,775,235
`
`Exhibit 2003-048 Declaration of Joel Williams
`
` in Patent 7,406,048
`
`Exhibit 1006 U.S. Patent US 6,628,617 B1
`
`(*Exhibits marked off the record and attached to
`
`transcript.)
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 3
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` * * * * * * * *
`
`WHEREUPON,
`
` JOEL WILLIAMS
`
`called as a witness, and having been first duly
`
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q Good morning, Mr. Williams.
`
` A Good morning.
`
` Q Would you please state your full name for
`
` the record.
`
` A Joel Robert Williams.
`
` Q Can you please state your address for the
`
` record?
`
` A 1240 McKendrie, M-C-K-E-N-D-R-I-E,
`
` Street, San Jose, California.
`
` Q Okay. You and I traveled a long way to
`
` be here today.
`
` A You're from?
`
` Q Just north of you.
`
` A Okay.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 4
`
`
`
` Q San Mateo.
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Is there anything that you would prevent
`
` you from testifying truthfully and accurately
`
` today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q You understand that you're going to be
`
` asked to testify today regarding both IPR-201600976
`
` and IPR-201600977. Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. You have in front of you, I
`
` believe, five exhibits. One of them is labeled
`
` Exhibit 2003 in the IPR-2016976, which is also
`
` listed as Exhibit 2003-235. Do you see that?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q Is that your declaration that you
`
` provided for IPR-201600976?
`
` A It appears to be.
`
` Q Okay. No reason to believe it isn't.
`
` Right?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q Okay. Because your declaration for each
`
` IPR has the same exhibit number as something you
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 5
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` heard me referencing with Counsel earlier, we'll
`
` let the record show that, unless otherwise
`
` specified, references to Exhibit 2003 will refer to
`
` Exhibit 2003 in the 00976 case.
`
` A Which is the --
`
` Q '235.
`
` A -- '235?
`
` Q Yes.
`
` Does that work?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And you also have, I believe, Exhibit
`
` 1001 in the IPR-2016000976 case, which is the '235
`
` patent, do you not?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` A I assume it's all here.
`
` Q Do you want to confirm?
`
` A Yeah, it looks like it.
`
` Q Okay. You also have in front of you
`
` what's been marked as 2003-048 in the IPR-201600977
`
` case. Do you see that?
`
` A That's the '048 patent, yes.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 6
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q Well, you have Exhibit 2003, which I
`
` believe is your declaration from the '048 --
`
` regarding the '048 patent in the 00977 case. Do
`
` you have that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. And then you have Exhibit 1003 in
`
` the IPR-201600977 case, which is the '048 patent.
`
` Do you have that?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q Okay. And you also have the -- there's a
`
` fifth exhibit there, which is the Exhibit 2006.
`
` Exhibit 2006, do you recognize Exhibit 2006?
`
` A Yes, it appears to be the Karol patent.
`
` Q And that's the same in the IPR-201600976
`
` and 977. Correct?
`
` A I'm sorry. I don't understand the
`
` question.
`
` Q It's -- we will use just that reference,
`
` the Karol reference in -- it doesn't have a
`
` separate exhibit number whether we're talking about
`
` the '235 case --
`
` A Or the both.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 7
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q -- or the '048.
`
` A Yes, I understand.
`
` Q Okay. Mr. Williams, do you have
`
` experience with frame relay networks?
`
` A I have some.
`
` Q What is that experience?
`
` A I work -- well, let me look at my resume
`
` here. With Cisco and NET, Network Equipment
`
` Technologies, and I had some involvement with frame
`
` relay.
`
` Q What was that involvement in frame relay
`
` with Cisco and NET?
`
` A Designing interfaces to send packets over
`
` frame relay.
`
` Q And when was that that you had your first
`
` experience with frame relay?
`
` A I don't recall the exact date. It was in
`
` the 1990s.
`
` Q When was the last time you had experience
`
` with frame relay?
`
` A I don't recall.
`
` Q Was it before 2015?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 8
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` A Oh, yeah. Yes.
`
` Q Was it before 2010?
`
` A I don't recall.
`
` Q What's your best estimate as to the last
`
` time that you worked with -- had any experience
`
` with frame relay?
`
` A Yeah, well, predominantly, most of my
`
` experience was from 1990s. I've -- I'll just leave
`
` it at that.
`
` Q You understand what frame relay is.
`
` Correct?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q And you're a person of ordinary skill in
`
` the art with respect to frame relay. Correct?
`
` A I would say so, yes.
`
` Q What would a person of ordinary skill in
`
` the art with respect to frame relay know about
`
` frame relay?
`
` A They would know what it is and that it --
`
` and that it is a method for transporting data over
`
` communication links. It's a form of a
`
` communication link.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Page 9
`
`
`
` Q The '235 patent describes frame relay.
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Correct?
`
` A It does mention it.
`
` Q And describes it. Correct?
`
` A Yes, it does.
`
` Q When you read the '235 patent, you
`
` understood what was referred to as frame relay.
`
` Correct?
`
` A I did.
`
` Q What benefits does frame relay provide?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Vague.
`
` THE WITNESS: So in the context of the
`
` '235 patent, they're explaining that frame relay is
`
` a -- it's a network -- it provides essentially a
`
` private network to connect two sites together -- or
`
` to connect sites together.
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q And what -- are there any benefits
`
` associated with that?
`
` A Are you asking me in general or in a
`
` specific context to this patent?
`
` Q Either.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 10
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` A Well, I will answer in general. People
`
` use frame relay, it was an offer -- it was a
`
` service offering provided by Internet service
`
` providers and carriers of different kinds. Let me
`
` not say Internet service providers, but by carriers
`
` for use for private networks. Like AT&T, for
`
` example, you could rent a frame relay connection
`
` from them.
`
` So it was a way to connect up for
`
` enterprises and to connect up their sites into a
`
` private network. It may have been used in other
`
` contexts as well.
`
` Q The patents describe certain benefits
`
` associated with frame relay. Correct?
`
` A That's what I would have to go and
`
` review. It does.
`
` Q High throughput is one of the associated
`
` benefits that frame relay provides. Correct?
`
` As you're reading the patent,
`
` Mr. Williams --
`
` A If you could point me to a particular
`
` site where it talks about the specific benefits. I
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 11
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` see where it says subscribing frame delay.
`
` Q If you look at the '048 patent, I believe
`
` column 1, lines 43 through 44, it describes certain
`
` benefits.
`
` Are you familiar with these benefits or
`
` are you only familiar with them by reading the
`
` patent?
`
` A No. I'm familiar with it. I'm looking
`
` for what you're defining as a benefit, though.
`
` It's describing how they work.
`
` Q And I don't want to use a specific
`
` definition of benefits. I just want to know if you
`
` think that -- if there are any benefits that frame
`
` relay provides.
`
` A Well, I am just -- I guess I'm not
`
` understanding what you mean by benefits. I mean,
`
` this describes what a frame relay -- how a frame --
`
` what a frame relay is and what it does.
`
` And as I said, the benefit is that it
`
` provides a private network capability. That's what
`
` it says here. I'm not sure what you mean by
`
` benefit in terms of --
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 12
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q Would high throughput be something that
`
` would be associated with frame relay, as described
`
` in the '048 patent?
`
` A Typically, yeah.
`
` Q What about --
`
` A Well, I'm not sure. I'm looking forward,
`
` it says high throughput in here. I'm not seeing
`
` that.
`
` Q I believe it --
`
` A Is there a particular line that --
`
` Q In the '048 patent, I believe it's column
`
` 1, line, approximately, 43 through 44, where it
`
` says, "Specifically frame relay networking
`
` technology offers relatively high throughput" --
`
` A Yes. And reliability, yes, I see that.
`
` And I do agree with that.
`
` Q You agree with that?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And it delivers traffic with a defined
`
` service quality. Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Why would someone use frame relay?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 13
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` A They want to implement a private network.
`
` Q Any other reasons?
`
` A Well, as we just pointed out, I mean, it
`
` has some benefits of -- of providing a high
`
` throughput reliability, and basically, essentially,
`
` they own it, at least virtually own it.
`
` Q And frame relay can carry the IP
`
` protocol. Correct?
`
` A That is correct.
`
` Q Frame relay is a way of sending
`
` information over a wide-area network that divides
`
` the information into frames or packets. Correct?
`
` A I would not characterize it as a
`
` wide-area network. It's a way of sending it over
`
` long distances.
`
` Q Why would you not agree that frame relay
`
` is a way of sending information over a wide-area
`
` network that divides the information into frames or
`
` packets?
`
` A Well, it's a -- I guess it's a -- it's
`
` a -- wide-area network often connotates a public
`
` network. And this is a private network. So in the
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 14
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` sense that -- literally it's a wide-area network is
`
` correct. But as the term is commonly used, it
`
` would be -- a wide-area network often is a --
`
` considered a public network, and it's not a public
`
` network.
`
` Q So if you didn't narrow the --
`
` A Or it's not typically a public network,
`
` yeah.
`
` Q If you didn't narrow the definition of
`
` wide-area network to something other than the
`
` literal sense of its wide -- covering a wide area,
`
` you would agree that frame relay is a way of
`
` sending information over a wide-area network that
`
` divides the information into frames or packets.
`
` Correct?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q And in frame relay, a connection or route
`
` for the communication can be set up in advance of
`
` the communication taking place. Correct?
`
` A That is correct.
`
` Q So if I have data transfer from Point A
`
` to Point B from San Jose to D.C., the network goes
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 15
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` from San Jose to D.C. Correct?
`
` A It appears to, yes.
`
` Q Okay. And in frame relay, a route is not
`
` changed, right, on a call or communication on a
`
` call-by-call or communication-by-communication
`
` basis. Correct?
`
` A Typically not. I mean, it depends on how
`
` they deploy the frame relay. That's the typical
`
` way to use it.
`
` Q So if there's -- the route's not changed
`
` in the example that I used, if the communication is
`
` from San Francisco or San Jose to D.C., it doesn't
`
` go from San Jose to Sacramento, for example.
`
` Correct?
`
` A Well, it could go through Sacramento, but
`
` you don't know -- like, this gives the example of
`
` AT&T and MCI, I believe, and they have switching
`
` centers all over the place. You -- when you
`
` contract for a frame relay service from them, you
`
` don't know where it goes. You just know the end
`
` points. So it could very well go through
`
` Sacramento.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 16
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q But in frame relay, the route isn't
`
` changed on a call-by-call or
`
` communication-by-communication basis. Correct?
`
` A Not typically.
`
` Q And you would agree that frame relay is
`
` an example of a connection-oriented network.
`
` Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And the '235 patent, it concedes that
`
` frame relay networks are prior art. Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q If you would look at the '235 patent, so
`
` you could put the '048 to the side for a minute.
`
` And in column 8, starting at line 46, do
`
` you see there's a chart that shows some address
`
` ranges there?
`
` A I see that.
`
` Q Okay. And at line 59, it says, "The
`
` network devices are pre-configured to such that all
`
` such packets with the 10.0.x.x destination address
`
` must be sent to the frame relay router, router Y,
`
` even though there is Internet connectivity between
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 17
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` the two locations."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A I see that sentence.
`
` Q So the address range of 10.0.x.x is
`
` associated with the frame relay network. Correct?
`
` A It's associated with a LAN IP, but
`
` it's -- the -- it's configured to send those
`
` packets over the frame relay router.
`
` Do you see where it says -- if you look
`
` at the chart, it says the LAN IP --
`
` Q Sure.
`
` A -- 10.0.x.x is under LAN IP. And what
`
` they're saying is they've configured it to send
`
` things over the frame relay.
`
` Q Understood.
`
` So just to be clear with respect to my
`
` question, the address range of 10.0.x.x is
`
` associated with that frame relay network. Correct?
`
` A It's configured to be associated with it,
`
` yes.
`
` Q And --
`
` A It's configured to send -- to send it to
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 18
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` the frame relay. It is not configured to be the
`
` frame relay.
`
` Q Well, put it this way: Using address
`
` ranges with CO networks was known by a person of
`
` ordinary skill in the art. Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So you, in coming up with your
`
` constructions, you construed address range to mean
`
` contiguous addresses. And if you need to refer to
`
` your report, I believe it's in paragraph 78 of --
`
` A Of '235?
`
` Q -- of the Exhibit 2003, with respect to
`
` the '235 patent.
`
` A 78, you said?
`
` Q I believe so.
`
` A You're referring to the sentence that
`
` says -- that starts with, "Further, a POSA would
`
` not understand a collection of single source or
`
` destination IP addresses to be an address range,"
`
` is that what you're --
`
` Q I was just directing your attention to
`
` this to speed up the process.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 19
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` But, in general, you construed an address
`
` range to mean contiguous addresses. Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And according to you, that's the broadest
`
` reasonable interpretation of address range.
`
` Correct?
`
` A Well, it is. And I would go one step
`
` further and say that this is in the context of an
`
` IP network, Internet protocol network. And by
`
` definition of the IP network, it is.
`
` And let me explain that.
`
` Q Well, before you explain it, if I have
`
` two or more addresses that are not contiguous, then
`
` I can't infringe the patent. Correct?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside the
`
` scope of the deposition, outside the scope of the
`
` declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: So I'm sorry, would you ask
`
` the question again?
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q Sure.
`
` If I have two or more addresses that are
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 20
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` not contiguous, then I can't infringe the patent.
`
` Correct?
`
` A I don't understand what you mean. How
`
` are they used? That's out of context.
`
` Q Everything -- I meet all the other
`
` elements, all right, but I have two -- but the two
`
` or more addresses are not contiguous.
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection.
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q You construed address range to mean
`
` contiguous addresses, and what I'm asking is, so if
`
` I have two or more addresses that are not
`
` contiguous, then I don't meet the claim element.
`
` Correct?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside the
`
` scope of the declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: In what context are you
`
` using these address ranges or these single
`
` addresses?
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q So is there a context that I could use
`
` two or more addresses that are not contiguous, but
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 21
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
` it would meet the claim?
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` A Not in a routing table and not in a --
`
` there's a look-up -- and, again, let me finish my
`
` previous thing I was trying to explain and I'll
`
` explain why.
`
` If we go back and look at that table that
`
` we were looking at in '235, in column 8, we had
`
` this 10.x.x, so the .Xs are called the host portion
`
` of the network address. And if you look at the
`
` Internet spec, that's called an address or address
`
` mask. It's actually a bit -- bits. Those Xs stand
`
` for 8 bits.
`
` And the way the Internet protocol is
`
` defined, the smallest you could have would be 1
`
` bit. 1 bit by definition -- numerically, the
`
` smallest you could have would be 1 bit. And that's
`
` two addresses right there. 1 bit could be either a
`
` 1 or a 0.
`
` But the way that the Internet protocol is
`
` defined, you can't even have that. You have to
`
` have the minimum of 2 bits. That gives you four
`
` possibilities, and contiguous possibilities.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` And two of those addresses are reserved,
`
` the value that's all 1s and all 0s. So leaves you
`
` with two additional numbers, basically 1 and 2.
`
` And those are the two IP addresses that you can
`
` have. That forms a range. That's the smallest
`
` possible range that the IP protocol allows it to
`
` have.
`
` Q So if I have a single address in that
`
` case --
`
` A You can't --
`
` Q -- then I can't infringe?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside the
`
` scope of the declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: A single address as trying
`
` to use that as a range?
`
` You can't define it. There's no way to
`
` define it.
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q When you say there's no way to define it,
`
` what do you mean?
`
` A The IP protocol does not allow you to
`
` define a range that has one address in it.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 23
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q So there's no other way to do it, other
`
` than contiguous?
`
` A Not to say -- not to say one address is a
`
` range, no, not within the context of this patent or
`
` the IP protocol.
`
` Q So if you had -- looking at '235 in the
`
` table, if you had under A where it says
`
` 192.168.x.x, if that was 192.168.1-2, is that an
`
` address range?
`
` A I'm sorry. Let me write that down. What
`
` was that? 19 --
`
` Q 192 -- so the example in the patent is
`
` 192.168.x.x. Do you see that --
`
` A I do, yeah.
`
` Q -- on Exhibit 1001?
`
` A Right.
`
` Q My question is: Is 192.168.1.2 an
`
` address range?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Okay. And to be clear, if I have only a
`
` single address, then I can't infringe. Correct?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside the
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
` scope of the declaration.
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` THE WITNESS: Well, again, can you be
`
` more specific about what you're doing with that
`
` address?
`
` I mean, certainly, single addresses
`
` exist. In what context are you talking about?
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q Is there any --
`
` A The question is too broad.
`
` Q Is there any context in which a single
`
` address would infringe?
`
` A Sure. When you receive a packet, and if
`
` the packet has a destination, it has a single
`
` address. But that's not in the context that we're
`
` talking about here with routing.
`
` Q But under that scenario that you just
`
` gave, I would be infringing?
`
` A No.
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside of the
`
` declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, you -- you need to
`
` specify -- you need to clarify the question.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 25
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q Well, is it your opinion that the
`
` inventors explicitly excluded the instance in which
`
` a single address is used?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Calls for
`
` speculation.
`
` THE WITNESS: In what context?
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q The same context that we've all been
`
` using?
`
` A In the context of these --
`
` Q The '235 patent.
`
` A Where in the '235 patent are you
`
` referring to?
`
` Are we talking about these address
`
` ranges?
`
` Are you asking me if a single address can
`
` be used as an address range? Is that what you're
`
` asking me?
`
` Q We'll get to that, I'm sure.
`
` A Well, then, I don't understand the
`
` question.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 26
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` Q What about the question don't you
`
` understand?
`
` A You said can a single address -- if a
`
` single address, can it -- can that cause -- can
`
` that infringe the patent? And I don't understand
`
` the context in which you're using that single
`
` address --
`
` Q Well, let's say with respect to the
`
` claims, for example.
`
` A -- in that question.
`
` Q So in the context of the claims, if I
`
` have a single address, I can't infringe the claims.
`
` Correct?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Vague. Outside
`
` the scope of the declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: Can you point to a
`
` particular claim and let's go through that?
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q What claim would you like to use?
`
` A I don't know. You pick it. It's your
`
` question.
`
` Q Let's look at -- for the -- in the '235,
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 27
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` let's look at claim five, method claim.
`
` A Right.
`
` Q So if I have a single address, I can't
`
` infringe claim five. Correct?
`
` A Which claim element are you talking
`
` about?
`
` Q Why don't you read through all of claim
`
` five and then you can just tell me.
`
` A All right. So the claim element, it
`
` says, "Receiving at a current location a packet
`
` which identifies a particular destination location
`
` by specifying a destination address for the
`
` destination location."
`
` That could very well be a single address.
`
` The idea is you take that single address and you
`
` look to see if it's within the range. That's what
`
` this claim is basically saying, or part of what
`
` it's saying.
`
` Q So that -- that single address, right --
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q -- and I've got a system, I've designed
`
` it, all right, and I've only got the single
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 28
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` address, I can still infringe claim five?
`
` MR. MATTSON: Objection. Outside the
`
` scope of the declaration.
`
` THE WITNESS: If you receive a packet
`
` with a single address, you can -- yeah, you will be
`
` practicing the claim.
`
` BY MR. FITZPATRICK:
`
` Q And even if I have a range of that one
`
` address?
`
` A I don't know what that means.
`
` Q So if all of --
`
` A That sentence doesn't make -- I don't
`
` understand that sentence.
`
` Q All I've got is that range with one
`
` address.
`
` A As I said, you can't have a range with
`
` one address.
`
` Q Right before where you started at
`
` receiving, do you see where it says obtaining --
`
` A Obtaining --
`
` Q No. Right before that, "Obtaining at
`
` least two known location address ranges." Do you
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 29
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` see that?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q Okay. But you're saying I could still
`
` infringe just having one address?
`
` A Well, we're going around in a circle
`
` here. I think I've have already answered that.
`
` You can't have one address be a range. I think I
`
` have explained why a few different ways.
`
` Q So it's your opinion that the invention
`
` is the use of two or more contiguous addresses.
`
` Correct?
`
` A A range is -- yeah, a range is, yeah, two
`
` or more contiguous addresses. That's the way the
`
` IP Internet protocol defines it. It's the way
`
` everybody uses it. And I think it's also the
`
` common sense, common understanding of the term
`
` "range," selecting from -- or having two or more.
`
` Q The claims do not require a single
`
` address. Correct?
`
` A You're going around in a circle again.
`
` Q No, I'm just asking the question.
`
` A "The element receiving at a current
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 30
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` location a packet which identifies a particular
`
` destination and location," that could be -- a
`
` single address.
`
` Q But the claims -- the claims don't
`
` require just a single address. Correct?
`
` A This claim element actually does.
`
` Q So I know one claim element, but I'm
`
` saying we're dealing with all of the claims, all
`
` the claim elements in that claim.
`
` A Yeah. So you need to make the
`
` distinction between a range of how you're using
`
` that address. If it's used -- if you're trying to
`
` use it as a range, that is incorrect. If you're
`
` trying to use it as a particular address of a
`
` device or as that claim element, then one address
`
` is correct.
`
` Q So it's your opinion --
`
` A It may be correct.
`
` Q So it's your opinion that the
`
` specification teaches a person of ordinary skill in
`
` the art that a single address would be excluded
`
` from the meaning of address range. Correct?
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 31
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` A A single address can be part of a range.
`
` It cannot be the whole range.
`
` Q And where in the '235 patent does it
`
` disclose that a single address cannot be an address
`
` range?
`
` A Okay. In column 8, line -- it's just
`
` line 9, it says, "To operate as discussed herein,
`
` the invention uses information about IP address
`
` ranges." So that says that we're talking about IP
`
` addresses. Okay.
`
` "One skilled in the art knows that there
`
` is a standard that defines the IP." In particular,
`
` what they're talking about here is something called
`
` IP version 4, so it's predominantly used
`
` everywhere, and that's the examples that they're
`
` using here. And the other possibility, which came
`
` along, I believe later, is IPv6, but the same
`
` argument -- or same logic applies. So we're
`
` talking about IP.
`
` So then when we go down to that chart,
`
` also in claim 8 that we were talking about earlier
`
` with the Xs, "One skilled in the art knows that the
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Page 32
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`
`
`JOEL WILLIAMS
`
` X stands for the host address portion of the -- of
`
` the Internet addre
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
