IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`----------------------------------------x
`HOLOGIC, INC., Case Nos.
` Petitioner, IPR2016-00820
` -vs- IPR2016-00822
`ENZO LIFE SCIENCES, INC., U.S. Patent No.
` Patent Owner. 7,064,197
`----------------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
` GREGORY A. BUCK, Ph.D.
` Wednesday, March 1, 2017
` New York, New York
` 9:14 a.m. - 6:06 p.m.
`
` Reported in stenotype by:
` Rich Germosen,
` CCR, CRCR, CRR, RMR, NYACR, NYRCR
` NCRA/NJ/NY/CA Certified Realtime Reporter
` NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator
` Job No. 40635
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`Page 1 of 306
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`HOLOGIC EXHIBIT 1035
`Hologic v. Enzo
`
`
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`----------------------------------------x
`HOLOGIC, INC., Case Nos.
` Petitioner, IPR2016-00820
` -vs- IPR2016-00822
`ENZO LIFE SCIENCES, INC., U.S. Patent No.
` Patent Owner. 7,064,197
`----------------------------------------x
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
` GREGORY A. BUCK, Ph.D.
` Wednesday, March 1, 2017
` New York, New York
` 9:14 a.m. - 6:06 p.m.
`
` Reported in stenotype by:
` Rich Germosen,
` CCR, CRCR, CRR, RMR, NYACR, NYRCR
` NCRA/NJ/NY/CA Certified Realtime Reporter
` NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator
` Job No. 40635
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`Page 1 of 306
`
`HOLOGIC EXHIBIT 1035
`Hologic v. Enzo
`
`
`
`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`2
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of GREGORY A. BUCK, Ph.D.,
`taken in the above-entitled matter before RICH GERMOSEN,
`Certified Court Reporter, (License No. 30XI00184700),
`Certified Realtime Court Reporter-NJ, (License No.
`30XR00016800), NCRA/NY/CA Certified Realtime Reporter,
`NCRA Registered Merit Reporter, New York Association
`Certified Reporter, NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator,
`taken at the offices of DESMARAIS, LLP, 230 Park Avenue,
`New York, New York 10169, on Wednesday, March 1, 2017,
`commencing at 9:14 a.m.
`
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`3
`
`FINNEGAN HENDERSON FARABOW GARRETT & DUNNER, LLP
`BY: M. PAUL BARKER, ESQ.
`Stanford Research Park
`3300 Hillview Avenue
`Palo Alto, California 94304-1203
`(650) 849.6600 / (650) 849.6666 (FAX)
`paul.barker@finnegan.com
`Attorneys for the Petitioner,
`Hologic, Inc.
`
`FINNEGAN HENDERSON FARABOW GARRETT & DUNNER, LLP
`BY: ARPITA BHATTACHARYYA, Ph.D., ESQ.
`Two Seaport Lane
`Boston, Massachusetts 02210-2001
`(617) 646.1600 / (617) 646.1666 (FAX)
`arpita.bhattacharyya@finnegan.com
`Attorneys for the Petitioner,
`Hologic, Inc.
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S: (CONT'D.)
`
`4
`
`DESMARAIS, LLP
`BY: JUSTIN P.D. WILCOX, ESQ.
` -and-
`BY: KERRI-ANN LIMBEEK, ESQ.
`230 Park Avenue
`New York, New York 10169
`(212) 351.4905 / (212) 351.3401 (FAX)
`jwilcox@desmaraisllp.com
`klimbeek@dllp.com
`Attorneys for the Patent Owner,
`Enzo Life Sciences, Inc.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`MARCELO RIVERA, Legal Video Specialist
`JEFFREY LANDES, ESQ., Hologic, Inc.
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`5
`
` I N D E X
`WITNESS EXAMINATION
`GREGORY A. BUCK, Ph.D.
` BY MR. BARKER 11
` BY MR. WILCOX 239
`
` EXHIBITS
`EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 2042 document entitled Declaration 30
` of Gregory Buck, Ph.D.
`
`Exhibit 1001 '197 patent 35
`
`Exhibit 2037 document entitled Exhibit 41
` 2037 Page 103 through Page
` 204
`
`Exhibit 2142 document entitled Declaration 60
` of Gregory Buck, Ph.D.
`
`Exhibit 2040 document containing 61
` handwritten notes
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`6
`
` E X H I B I T S (CONT'D.)
`EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 2041 document containing 62
` handwritten notes
`
`Exhibit 1006 article entitled Arthritis 93
` and Rheumatism
`
`Exhibit 2012 document entitled Kinetics of 128
` Ribonucleic
` Acid-Deoxyribonucleic Acid
` Membrane Filter Hybridization
`
`Exhibit 2013 document entitled DNA 128
` Hybridization: Comparison of
` Liquid and Solid Phase
` Formats
`
`Exhibit 1021 document entitled 134
` Manufacturing DNA Microarrays
` of High Spot Homogeneity and
` Reduced Background Signal
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`7
`
` E X H I B I T S (CONT'D.)
`EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1019 document entitled Immobilized 147
` Biochemicals and Affinity
` Chromatography
`
`Exhibit 2003 document entitled Covalent 157
` Coupling of Ribonucleic Acid
` to Agarose
`
`Exhibit 1007 document entitled Nucleic 158
` Acid Hybridization Using DNA
` Covalently Coupled with
` Cellulose
`
`Exhibit 1009 '892 patent 200
`
`Exhibit 1008 document entitled 206
` Experimental Cell Research
`
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`8
`
` E X H I B I T S (CONT'D.)
`EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1028 document entitled Effects of 237
` Immobilization of the
` Kinetics of Enzyme-Catalyzed
` Reactions I. Glucose Oxidase
` in a Recirculation Reactor
` System
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`9
`
` IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by
`and between the attorneys for the respective parties
`herein, that filing and sealing be and the same are
`hereby waived.
` IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
`that all objections, except as to the form of the
`question, shall be preserved to the time of trial.
` IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED
`that the within deposition may be signed and sworn
`to before any officer authorized to administer an
`oath, with the same force and effect as if signed
`and sworn to before the officer before whom the
`within deposition was taken.
`
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`10
`
`--------------------------------------------------
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` 9:14 a.m.
` New York, New York
`--------------------------------------------------
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please.
` This is the digitized video
`deposition of Dr. Gregory Buck in the matter Hologic
`versus Enzo Life Insurance [sic], Inc. in the United
`States Patent and Trademark Office. This deposition
`is being held at 230 Park Avenue, New York, New
`York, on March 1, 2017, at approximately 9:14 a.m.
` My name is Marcelo Rivera from
`Henderson Legal Services. The court reporter is
`Rich Germosen in association with Henderson Legal
`Services.
` Will present counsel please introduce
`themselves for the record.
` MR. BARKER: This is Paul Barker.
` MS. BHATTACHARYYA: Arpita
`Bhattacharyya representing Hologic.
` MR. LANDES: Jeff Landes, in-house
`counsel with Hologic.
` MR. WILCOX: Justin Wilcox from
`Desmarais LLP on behalf of Enzo Life Sciences, Inc.
`
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`11
`and the witness, Dr. Buck, and here with me today is
`my colleague Kerri-Ann Limbeek also of Desmarais
`LLP.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
`reporter please swear in the witness.
` COURT REPORTER: (Complies.)
` (Whereupon, the court reporter
`administered the oath to the witness.
`
`G R E G O R Y A. B U C K, Ph.D.,
`conducting business at Virginia Commonwealth
`University, 1101 East Marshall Street, Richmond,
`Virginia 23298, having been first duly sworn or
`affirmed, was examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION BY MR. BARKER:
`BY MR. BARKER:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Buck. How are you?
` A. Good morning.
` Q. First, I just wanted to state this is
`actually a deposition for two proceedings. There is
`IPR2016820 and IPR2016822. It's a consolidated
`deposition for both proceedings.
` Could you please state your full
`name, please.
` A. Gregory Allen Buck.
`
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
`
`12
`
` Q. And what do you do for a living?
` A. I'm a scientist.
` Q. Where do you work?
` A. Virginia Commonwealth University.
` Q. Okay. And you understand you're here
`today to give sworn testimony in the two Patent
`Office proceedings that I just mentioned?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And the first one is
`IPR2016820, we'll just call that the 820IPR, and
`then we have the second one which is the 822IPR.
` A. Understood.
` Q. Okay. You were hired by Enzo to
`provide some declarations, one for each of the IPRs;
`correct?
` A. Yes, I was actually hired by Rubin
`Anders, but to work with Enzo to provide
`declarations.
` (Unintelligible, simultaneous
`testimony interrupted by the court reporter.)
` COURT REPORTER: I need one at a
`time, please.
` A. Rubin Anders is a company that
`contacted me that I guess Enzo or Desmarais
`recruited to find an expert.
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
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`13
`
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` And are you being compensated for the
`work --
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. What is the rate that you're --
` A. $500 an hour.
` Q. Okay. What did you do to prepare for
`the deposition today?
` A. So I have read most of the -- read
`all of the materials that were provided that -- I
`read the petition. I read the information that was
`in the petition. I looked at the references that
`were associated with the petition. I wrote a
`declaration about the two different petitions.
` Q. And then after submitting the
`petitions, did you prepare for this deposition --
`I'm sorry, after submitting the declarations, did
`you prepare for this deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how did you prepare for the
`deposition?
` A. I reviewed all the documents all over
`again, spent a lot of time looking at the
`declarations and the -- the declaration by
`Dr. Nelson and the references and just reviewed
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`IPR2016-00820; IPR2016-00822
`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
`
`March 1, 2017
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`14
`
`everything to the best of my ability.
` Q. Okay. Did you meet with any of the
`attorneys at Desmarais?
` A. I met with Desmarais counsel, sure.
` Q. And approximately how long did you
`meet with them?
` A. We spent sometime in -- there were
`some telephone calls. We spent sometime in
`November, I think it was one day I was up here in
`November, and then I was here for the last two days.
` Q. The last two days preparing. Okay.
` Approximately how much time total
`have you spent on the two proceedings, including the
`work preparing the declarations and preparing for
`this deposition?
` A. I don't know exactly. I would guess
`50 hours.
` Q. Okay.
` A. There are some other related -- not
`related, but there were some other cases that I was
`working on that had some similar situations. So
`there were some similar references and some similar
`issues, so I was familiar with some of that already.
` Q. For the other matters, did it involve
`the patent that's involved in this case?
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
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`March 1, 2017
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`15
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Were those district court
`cases? Do you know?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Were they court proceedings instead
`of Patent Office proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Have you ever provided expert
`testimony in a Patent Office proceeding before?
` A. No.
` Q. Before this case?
` A. No, this is the first time.
` Q. Okay. And to be clear, the patent
`involved in this case is 7064197; correct?
` A. We call it the '197, right.
` Q. That makes it a lot easier I guess.
` Okay. And in the declarations, you
`provided your opinions on some prior art that was
`asserted against the patent in the two proceedings;
`is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Since you've submitted the
`declarations in these two proceedings, has anything
`come to your mind that makes you want to change any
`of the testimony in those declarations?
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`Buck, Ph.D., Gregory A.
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`March 1, 2017
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`16
` A. I think we had a typographical error
`in one of the depositions, but that's --
` Q. In one of the declarations?
` A. In one of the declarations.
` Q. Okay. Did you want to point that out
`to me or --
` A. I don't know if I could find it.
`It's a 25 milliliters versus 25 microliters. Could
`probably find it if I had a copy of the declaration.
` Q. Okay. We can deal with that in just
`a little bit. I just wanted to go over some
`background before we look at the declaration.
` Could you briefly describe your
`educational background after high school.
` A. Sure. I got a bachelor's degree in
`genetics in 1975 from the University of Wisconsin.
`I got a master's degree in microbiology from the
`University of Washington in Seattle in I think it
`was '78. Got a Ph.D. from the same institution at
`the end of 1980, I think it was awarded in 1981. I
`went to the Institut Pasteur for three and a half
`years as a postdoctoral --
` Q. I'm sorry, what were the years that
`you were at Pasteur?
` A. '81 to '84 and then this was just the
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`March 1, 2017
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`end of '84 that I came back to the states, so kind
`of '84, '85.
` Q. And during your work from
`undergraduate through your postdoc at Pasteur, did
`you work with nucleic acid detection techniques?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Could you briefly describe the types
`of work you were doing with nucleic acid detection
`techniques.
` A. So the bulk of the work that we did
`at that time was looking at southern hybridization
`analyses. It's where we would transfer -- would run
`nucleic acids on a gel, an agarose or acrylamide
`gel, and then we would use those gels to transfer
`the DNA or RNA nucleic acid to a porous filter and
`then use generally radioactive probes at the time to
`detect the genes of interest that we were interested
`in.
` We did some affinity chromatography
`looking at using columns that were -- had
`nucleotides on them that would hybridize to other
`nucleotides. We could select out those nucleotides
`by hybridization. So it's general molecular biology
`things.
` Q. So when you described the affinity
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`columns, you used those for nucleic acid detection
`techniques?
` A. It's more -- well, it's a combination
`nucleic acid detection, nucleic acid purifications.
`So you could use it for purification of
`polyadenylated RNA, for example. It is the
`messenger RNA to separate it from other RNA,
`ribosomal RNA, for example, or other RNAs in the
`cell. You could use this affinity chromatography to
`purify that.
` We did some other more specific
`things as well. It wasn't really specifically
`nucleic acid detection, but, for example, wasn't
`necessarily looking for pathogens, but what we're
`trying to do is select out specific pieces of DNA or
`RNA from a mixture by doing hybridization.
` Q. Could you -- would you run it on the
`gel and then detect the nucleic acid?
` A. That would be --
` Q. I'm sorry, on the column. I should
`have said on the column.
` A. So the -- yeah, that would be -- we
`would run it on a column, pull it out and hybridize
`it to something to make sure we knew what it was.
` Q. Okay.
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` A. Using it was labeled with
`radioactivity. I'm thinking of some specific
`experiments that I performed.
` Q. When using the affinity columns, did
`you prepare the columns or did you just use the
`columns?
` A. We purchased the columns.
` Q. You purchased the columns. So you --
`I'm sorry.
` A. We purchased the powder that had the
`affinity nucleic acid on it.
` Q. So when you purchased it, the nucleic
`acid was already bound?
` A. Uh-huh, yes.
` Q. Did you ever work with the actual
`binding of nucleic acids to solid supports?
` A. I worked with a chemist who did some
`things in a couple of projects that I had who was
`binding nucleic acids to columns and that was one of
`the affinity columns that I was using.
` Q. Can you describe the interaction?
`You say you worked with him. Did you work with him
`actually putting the nucleic acids onto the solid
`supports or did you --
` A. No, I didn't put the nucleic acid on
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`the solid support. He did.
` Q. So if I've got it right, you would
`ask him to prepare the material and then he would
`prepare it?
` A. Right. He'd say, What do you need?
`I need a three prime hydroxyl linked to a particular
`CPG or something like that and he would do it.
` Q. And what is a CPG?
` A. Controlled pore glass.
` Q. So that's glass that's porous?
` A. It's a glass bead, right, a porous
`glass bead.
` Q. In the different types of work, let's
`start with the porous glass beads, was the binding
`of the nucleic acid to the bead a covalent bond or a
`noncovalent bond?
` A. I believe it was covalent. I
`couldn't give you the details though.
` Q. Okay.
` A. This is 30 years ago.
` Q. I understand.
` When you worked with -- I think you
`said the southern lots?
` A. Southern/northern, right.
` Q. Right. What type of binding was
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`that -- did that involve?
` A. Generally, it was noncovalent. It's
`a electrostatic interaction between the nucleic acid
`and the filter and it's very -- actually, not very
`well-defined, but it's -- for the most part people
`consider it noncovalent. There were some instances
`where we would use UV cross-linking that would
`enhance the interaction between the nucleic acid and
`the filter and that would be a more covalent
`cross-link.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Generally, we did not do that though.
` Q. Could you describe how the -- it was
`known at that time to -- how the -- you called it
`a -- I'm sorry. A -- an electrostatic interaction
`between the nucleic acid and the filter. At that
`time how did you understand that worked? What
`exactly was that interaction?
` MR. WILCOX: Object to form.
` Go ahead.
` A. I --
` Q. I can rephrase it. I'm sorry.
` During that time, did you know how
`the nucleic acid interacted with the filter? Did
`you understand how the electrostatic interaction
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`operated at the time?
` MR. WILCOX: Object to form.
` Go ahead.
` A. A general understanding. It's based
`on charges, based on opposite charges. The nucleic
`acid is a negative charge backbone, and we assume
`that the filter had some kind of a charge on it that
`that would be attracted to. Other than that, the
`specificity of that interaction, at that point we
`didn't really care how it worked. It just worked,
`and most people said, Well, we think it's an
`electrostatic interaction. We don't really know in
`detail how the interaction works. So I would say I
`don't -- I know I think in general what was
`happening, but the specifics of it, I don't know it.
` Q. By 1983, was it known that the DNA
`had a -- a nucleic acid had a -- I'll start over
`again, I'm sorry.
` By 1983, was it known that a strand
`of nucleic acid had a negatively charged phosphate
`backbone?
` A. Certainly.
` Q. And in an ionic interaction or
`electrostatic interaction as you described it, if
`you had a positively charged surface on a solid
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`support, would it have been known in January of 1983
`that there would be an interaction between the
`negatively charged backbone of the nucleic acid and
`the positive charge on the solid support?
` A. So there is always going to be an
`interaction between positive and negative charges.
`It's the nature of chemistry or physics. In the
`individual situation, I would have to know a lot
`more specifics about the molecules you're talking
`about, the situation you're describing to make a
`specific prediction. There is a lot of
`variabilities, a lot of variables that go into this.
`So I don't think I can say for sure I would be able
`to answer your question yes.
` Q. Okay. But you had said that that was
`your understanding of how the filters worked in the
`northern and southern --
` A. So we knew the filters worked. We
`know that DNA binds to the filters. RNA binds to
`other filters. We didn't really care how it worked.
`We assumed that that was what was happening.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` A. Or I shouldn't say we. I should say
`I didn't really care how it -- as long as my
`experiment worked, I wasn't really all that thrilled
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`about trying to find out exactly what the
`interaction was.
` Q. Okay. When did you start working on
`any project with respect to the '197 patent for
`Enzo?
` A. So it was in 2013 when I started
`working with Enzo on cases associated with the '197.
` Q. Have you submitted any expert reports
`other than the declarations you submitted in the two
`proceedings that we're discussing today?
` A. Yes, I've submitted expert reports in
`I think four other cases.
` Q. And all four of those cases involved
`the '197 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you been deposed in any of those
`proceedings?
` A. I was deposed twice.
` Q. Twice.
` Did those proceedings involve some of
`the same prior art that you discuss in these two
`proceedings at the Patent Office?
` A. Yes.
` Q. During the process of working on
`matters dealing with the '197 patent, did you do
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`anything to familiarize yourself with the state of
`the art in 1983?
` A. Well, we certainly looked at -- well,
`obviously, I looked back at the -- and said, Where
`was I in 1983? What was I doing? What kind of
`technology was available, and what were the issues
`of the day? I looked at papers from that -- that
`era as well to try to familiarize myself with what
`other people were doing and what was going on in
`that age time. Mostly recollection of what I was
`doing at that point.
` Q. What is the work that you're doing
`now at Virginia Commonwealth University?
` A. I'm a professor in microbiology and
`immunology. I am the director of the Center for the
`Study of Biological Complexity. So I do some
`administrative work associated with that, overseeing
`faculty, students and postdocs.
` I do a small amount of teaching
`still, not as much as I used to do. The bulk of my
`time is spent doing research, so I have a fairly
`significant research effort, and my research is
`focused on genomics and metagenomics. So a lot of
`time spent doing research.
` I'm the director of the nucleic acid
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`research facilities which started in 1986. When I
`came to VCU as an assistant professor, we launched
`that because we needed people doing -- everybody
`needed nucleic acid technology and I was the one
`bringing it to the university. So we started a core
`facility. That core facility has evolved through
`the years. It's now primarily a genomics core, but
`we do lots of other things, like RTPRC and arrays
`and those kinds of things, as well as high
`throughput sequencing, but again, the bulk of my
`effort is spent on my research projects.
` Q. Thank you.
` I wanted to back up. You had
`mentioned that -- I think you said you had reviewed
`some papers and becoming familiar with the state of
`the art in 1983. Is that -- I don't want to change
`your testimony. Is that what you had said?
` A. Well, the way you ask the question,
`I'm not really sure how to answer it. I did
`certainly look at papers from that era and that
`helped me familiarize myself with what was going --
`or remind myself what was going on at that time. I
`think it was mostly in reference to specific
`questions I was looking to answer, but yeah, I did
`review papers from that era.
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` Q. Are all those papers mentioned in
`your declarations as documents you reviewed?
` A. So the documents I reviewed for these
`are all mentioned there, for these cases are
`mentioned there. I mean, I read things all the
`time. So it's -- you know, I don't -- I read
`literature for my own research, and so I may have
`read something from 1962 for my own research.
` Q. I understand.
` A. But all the ones that I think are
`germane to the case that we were looking at here
`is -- are listed in the declaration.
` Q. Thank you.
` In the litigations that you mentioned
`that involved the '197 patent, were your opinions
`that you submit in those cases, did they deal with
`validity of the '197 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did they also deal with issues of
`infringement of the '197 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever testified at a trial?
` A. No.
` Q. Outside of the work on the '197
`patent that you've discussed, have you ever served
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`as an expert in any other --
` A. No.
` Q. -- legal matters?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you charge the same rate for the
`district court litigation that you do for the Patent
`Office proceeding matters?
` A. Yeah. The compensation is the same
`rate. It basically was set by Rubin Anders.
` Q. And that rate is $500 an hour?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` And you said that you've never been
`involved in a Patent Office proceeding until this
`proceeding; is that correct?
` A. I have patents.
` Q. I'm sorry. Served as an expert I
`should say.
` A. No.
` Q. You have not served as an expert --
` A. No, I have not.
` Q. -- in any Patent Office proceedings?
` A. No.
` Q. Just a couple of housekeeping
`matters. If you need to take a break, just let me
`
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`09:40
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