·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,659,891
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`·4· ·ARUBA NETWORKS, INC., et al.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Petitioners,
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`·6· ·v.
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`·7· ·MOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS
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`·8· ·TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`10· ·__________________________________/
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`11
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`12· · · · · · ·The oral deposition of PAUL KAKAES, PH.D.,
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`13· ·was held on Thursday, December 15, 2016, commencing
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`14· ·at 1:30 p.m., at the law offices of Ropes & Gray
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`15· ·LLP, 2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest,
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`16· ·Washington, D.C., before Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR,
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`17· ·Notary Public.
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25· ·REPORTED BY:· Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 1, IPR2016-00768
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,659,891
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`·4· ·ARUBA NETWORKS, INC., et al.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Petitioners,
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`·6· ·v.
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`·7· ·MOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS
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`·8· ·TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`10· ·__________________________________/
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`11
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`12· · · · · · ·The oral deposition of PAUL KAKAES, PH.D.,
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`13· ·was held on Thursday, December 15, 2016, commencing
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`14· ·at 1:30 p.m., at the law offices of Ropes & Gray
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`15· ·LLP, 2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest,
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`16· ·Washington, D.C., before Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR,
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`17· ·Notary Public.
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25· ·REPORTED BY:· Susan Ashe, RMR, CRR
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 1, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·2· · · · ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS:
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`·3· · · · HENNING SCHMIDT, ESQUIRE
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`·4· · · · · ·Reed & Scardino LLP
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`·5· · · · · ·301 Congress Avenue, Suite 1250
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`·6· · · · · ·Austin, Texas· 78701
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`·7· · · · · ·(512) 474-2449
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`·8
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`·9
`· · · · · ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER AND THE WITNESS:
`10
`· · · · · MEGAN F. RAYMOND, ESQUIRE
`11
`· · · · · · ·Ropes & Gray LLP
`12
`· · · · · · ·2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest
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`· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20006-6807
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`· · · · · · ·(202) 508-4600
`15
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`16
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`17· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`18· ·Stefan Geirhofer, Ph.D.
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 2, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
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`·2· · · · · · ·Deposition of PAUL KAKAES, PH.D.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · December 15, 2016
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`·4
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`·5· ·Examination By:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page
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`·6· ·Mr. Schmidt· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 4
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`·7
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`·8· ·Exhibit No.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Marked
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`·9· ·Exhibit 1· ·Permutation Modulation for
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`10· · · · · · · ·Advanced Radio Paging
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`11· · · · · · · ·SEC 00010442 through -445· · · · · · · 4
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`12· ·Exhibit 2· ·Declaration of
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`13· · · · · · · ·Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes· · · · · · · · 4
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`14· ·Exhibit 3· ·U.S. Patent 5,659,891· · · · · · · · · 4
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`15· ·Exhibit 4· ·Graph - Witness Annotated
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`16· · · · · · · ·SEC 00010444· · · · · · · · · · · · · 15
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`17· ·Exhibit 5· ·Graph - Mr. Schmidt Annotated
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`18· · · · · · · ·SEC 00010444· · · · · · · · · · · · ·110
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 3, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Kakaes Deposition Exhibits 1
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`·3· ·through 3 were marked for identification.)
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`·4· ·Whereupon,
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·PAUL KAKAES, PH.D.,
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`·6· ·the Witness, called for examination, having been
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`·7· ·first duly sworn according to law, was examined and
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`·8· ·testified as follows:
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`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. SCHMIDT:· My name is Henning
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`10· ·Schmidt, with Reed & Scardino.
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`11· · · · · · · · · Would you like the other attorneys to
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`12· ·introduce themselves?
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`13· · · · · · · · · No?· Okay.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`15· ·BY MR. SCHMIDT:
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Good morning -- or good afternoon, Mr. --
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`17· ·or Dr. Kakaes.
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`18· · · · A.· ·Good afternoon.
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`19· · · · Q.· ·Did I get your name right?
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`20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`21· · · · Q.· ·Would you mind saying it, so I can....
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`22· · · · A.· ·"Kakaes."
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`23· · · · Q.· ·"Kakaes."· Okay, good.
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`24· · · · · · ·So you already know my name is Henning
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`25· ·Schmidt.· We've worked together before.
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 4, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · · · ·But for the purpose of this transcript,
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`·2· ·will you please state your name and address for the
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`·3· ·record.
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`·4· · · · A.· ·My first name is Apostolos,
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`·5· ·A-p-o-s-t-o-l-o-s; middle initial K; last name
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`·6· ·Kakaes, K-a-k-a-e-s.
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`·7· · · · · · ·And I live at 908 Park Street, Southeast,
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`·8· ·in Vienna, Virginia.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·So I know you've been deposed before.· But
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`10· ·let's go over some of the basic rules, just for the
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`11· ·purpose of this transcript.
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`12· · · · · · ·So you're under oath to answer accurately
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`13· ·and truthfully.
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`14· · · · · · ·Do you understand?
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`15· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·And it's just like in court.
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`17· · · · · · ·So the patent appeals board judges may see
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`18· ·this testimony.· Okay?
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`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Please give verbal answers to the reporter
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`21· ·one at a time.
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`22· · · · · · ·And we will speak one at a time and try
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`23· ·not to speak over each other.· Okay?
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`24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And your counsel may object.· But
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 5, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·please provide an answer unless you're specifically
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`·2· ·instructed not to.· Okay?
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`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·And if you're instructed not to, you can
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`·5· ·decide if you want to follow the advice or if you
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`·6· ·want to give an answer.· Okay?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·Is there any reason that you are aware of
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`·9· ·that you may not be able to testify accurately
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`10· ·today?
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`11· · · · A.· ·No.
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`12· · · · Q.· ·Any medication or something like that
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`13· ·you're on?
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`14· · · · A.· ·No.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·Please let me know if you don't understand
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`16· ·the question I'm asking.· Okay?
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`17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·If you give an answer, I'll assume that
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`19· ·you've understood my question.
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`20· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection.
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`21· · · · A.· ·I will answer the question if I have an
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`22· ·understanding of the question.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if you don't, please let me
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`24· ·know.· Okay?
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`25· · · · A.· ·And if I have an understanding, I'll give
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 6, IPR2016-00768
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`
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`·1· ·an answer.
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`·2· · · · · · ·And if I don't have an understanding, I
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`·3· ·will ask you to explain the question.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·Sounds good.· Thanks.
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`·5· · · · · · ·So I'll try to break about once an hour.
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`·6· ·But if you, you know, need a break at any time, just
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`·7· ·let me know.
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`·8· · · · A.· ·Sure.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·And I'll just ask that we finish any
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`10· ·pending question.· And then we can take a break.
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`11· · · · A.· ·Of course.
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`12· · · · Q.· ·So we've marked three exhibits.
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`13· · · · · · ·Could you tell me what the numbers were,
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`14· ·which one's which?
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`15· · · · A.· ·So Exhibit 1 is a paper coauthored by
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`16· ·three individuals -- the first of which is Petrovic,
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`17· ·P-e-t-r-o-v-i-c.
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`18· · · · · · ·The second exhibit is a declaration of
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`19· ·mine dated June 7, 1995 -- or the filing date on
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`20· ·that declaration is shown as June 7, 1995.
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`21· · · · · · ·And the Exhibit No. 3 is the U.S. Patent
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`22· ·No. 5,659,891.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
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`24· · · · · · ·So let's take a look at your declaration.
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`25· · · · · · ·So this is the declaration you've
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 7, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·submitted in this IPR.· Right?
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`·2· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· If you could speak up a little
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`·3· ·louder.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
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`·5· · · · A.· ·I have a hearing problem a little bit.
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`·6· ·So....
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`·7· · · · Q.· ·This is the declaration you've submitted
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`·8· ·in this IPR.· Right?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And this is identical to the
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`11· ·declaration you submitted previously in a different
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`12· ·IPR.
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`13· · · · · · ·Is that right?
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`14· · · · A.· ·I don't know that it's identical.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of any differences?
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`16· · · · A.· ·I haven't compared the two.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall writing a new declaration
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`18· ·for this IPR?
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`19· · · · A.· ·Yes -- I mean, I wrote this declaration.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·So you wrote this specifically for this
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`21· ·IPR?
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`22· · · · A.· ·Like I said -- like we both agree, that
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`23· ·there were previous declarations.
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`24· · · · · · ·And in conjunction with the attorneys,
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`25· ·this is the declaration that I provided for this
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 8, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·case.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall anything different or new in
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`·3· ·this declaration?
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`·4· · · · A.· ·Like I said, I didn't compare it line by
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`·5· ·line to see if there was anything different or new.
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`·6· · · · · · ·But I'm sure there are some differences.
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`·7· · · · Q.· ·How much time did you spend working on
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`·8· ·this declaration; do you recall?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·So more or less than 100 hours?
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`11· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry?
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`12· · · · Q.· ·More or less than 100 hours?
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`13· · · · A.· ·I'd say less than 100 hours.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Maybe more or less than 40 hours,
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`15· ·one week?
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`16· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't remember that I can put
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`17· ·a threshold on that.
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`18· · · · · · ·It was less than 100 hours.· That's for
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`19· ·sure.
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`20· · · · · · ·Beyond that, I just don't remember how
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`21· ·much time I spent on it.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall how much time you billed for
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`23· ·this?
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`24· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection; form.
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`25· · · · A.· ·No.· I billed for the amount of time I
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 9, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·spent working on it.
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`·2· · · · · · ·And I don't remember either one of those
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`·3· ·two.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall your billing rate for this
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`·5· ·work?
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`·6· · · · A.· ·I believe my billing rate -- I'm not
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`·7· ·sure -- I don't remember, because my billing rate
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`·8· ·has been changing over time.· But I suspect I have
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`·9· ·it here.
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`10· · · · · · ·So I don't have to do it from memory. I
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`11· ·just don't remember what it is.
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`12· · · · Q.· ·I don't think I saw it in your
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`13· ·declaration.
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`14· · · · · · ·Do you have an estimate of your rate?
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`15· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I think, without being 100 percent
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`16· ·certain, that my billing rate is $900 an hour.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·So most likely you billed about that
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`18· ·amount per hour for this declaration, around about?
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`19· · · · A.· ·It's certainly around that.
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`20· · · · · · ·And again, to the best of my recollection
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`21· ·I think my billing rate is 900.· And I billed at
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`22· ·whatever my billing rate is.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Something less than 100 hours.
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`24· ·Right?
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`25· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 10, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure what you mean, "something
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`·2· ·less."
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`·3· · · · · · ·Less than 100 hours.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·Of time that you spent on this
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`·5· ·declaration, I meant.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`·7· · · · A.· ·I think that's what we discussed a few
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`·8· ·minutes ago.
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`·9· · · · · · ·The amount of time I spent on this
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`10· ·declaration -- I don't remember the exact amount.
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`11· ·But my estimate, my guess is that it was less than
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`12· ·100 hours.
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Will you take a look at paragraph 6
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`14· ·in your declaration, please.
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`15· · · · · · ·In the fourth line here, you list -- well,
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`16· ·in the first sentence of this paragraph, you list
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`17· ·some of the experience that you have.
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`18· · · · · · ·In the fourth line it mentions "paging
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`19· ·networks."
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`20· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·What paging networks does it refer to?
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`23· · · · A.· ·The paging networks that existed in the
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`24· ·United States over the time span that I was doing
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`25· ·the respective consulting and other --
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 11, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · · · ·In some of the projects I worked on, it
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`·2· ·involved a potential deployment of paging networks.
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`·3· ·So I did some consulting on that.
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`·4· · · · · · ·I'm not sure what exactly you mean, what
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`·5· ·"paging networks."
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, you list here that you've provided
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`·7· ·expert advice and conducted -- and extensive
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`·8· ·training for practicing engineers in these fields.
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`·9· · · · · · ·And one of the fields listed is paging
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`10· ·networks.
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`11· · · · · · ·So I'm just wondering if you recall any
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`12· ·specific paging network you worked on.
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`13· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`14· · · · A.· ·No, I don't recall a specific paging
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`15· ·network.· That was a long time ago.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall about when?
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`17· · · · A.· ·That would probably be in the time frame
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`18· ·of the '90s.
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`19· · · · · · ·That's when paging networks were quite --
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`20· ·that was a topic that was of some consulting
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`21· ·interest.
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`22· · · · · · ·So it was probably in the '90s.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall any paging network
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`24· ·that you worked on, specifically?
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`25· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 12, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· · · · A.· ·No, not specifically.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Will you take a look at the -- hold
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`·3· ·on one second.
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`·4· · · · · · ·Will you take a look at Exhibit 1.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·So you're familiar with this reference.
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`·7· ·Right?
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`·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·And this is the reference you discussed
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`10· ·that's the subject of your declaration?
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`11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Will you take a look at Figure 1.
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`13· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
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`14· · · · Q.· ·So are you familiar with this figure?
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`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know what the dashed line
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`17· ·represents?
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`18· · · · A.· ·Which dashed line?
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`19· · · · Q.· ·Do you see a dashed line in the diagram?
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`20· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`21· · · · A.· ·I see several.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·Can you point to them?
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`23· · · · A.· ·Well, here's one dashed line.· Here's
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`24· ·another dashed line.· Here's another dashed line.
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`25· ·Here's another dashed line.· Here's another dashed
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 13, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·line.· And this is another dashed line.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·I see.· So the last dashed line you
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`·3· ·pointed out is part of the graph.· Right?
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`·4· · · · A.· ·Well, they're all part of the figure.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the first, what, five dashed
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`·6· ·lines you indicated, do you know what those are?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·So those are not really lines.· Those are
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`·8· ·line segments.
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`·9· · · · · · ·But, collectively, they define the mask of
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`10· ·the channel.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know how the mask is defined
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`12· ·here in this article?
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`13· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`14· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure what you mean, "how the mask
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`15· ·is defined."
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Well, in your declaration, you reference
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`17· ·that there is a mask displayed in this diagram.
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`18· ·Right?
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`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·So how is the mask indicated?
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`21· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
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`22· · · · A.· ·The mask that Petrovic, this Petrovic
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`23· ·paper uses is this mask shown by the -- by this
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`24· ·collection of line segments.
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`25· · · · · · · · · MR. SCHMIDT:· Will you please add one
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`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 14, IPR2016-00768
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`·1· ·exhibit.
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`·2· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Kakaes Exhibit 4 was marked
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`·3· ·for identification.)
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·So we're having a little bit of
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`·5· ·difficulty, it seems, identifying what the mask is
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`·6· ·and -- you know, in words.
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`·7· · · · · · ·So if you don't mind, will you please
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`·8· ·trace the mask you just pointed out in the paper.
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`·9· · · · A.· ·With this yellow highlighter?
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Yes, please.
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
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`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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`13· · · · A.· ·Again, some of the ink is spilling over.
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`14· ·But that's what I'm showing.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
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`16· · · · · · ·So for discussion purposes, would you
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`17· ·please label --
`
`18· · · · · · · · · MR. SCHMIDT:· Did I give you one of
`
`19· ·these?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Yes.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · MR. SCHMIDT:· I did.· Right?
`
`22· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Yes, you have.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · MR. SCHMIDT:· I have another one
`
`24· ·here.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Will you please label the points.
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 15, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·So the first part of the line is
`
`·2· ·horizontal.· Right?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·The leftmost segment, is that what you
`
`·4· ·mean?
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, it's horizontal.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So then the first point of
`
`·8· ·inflection is when the diagonal starts going
`
`·9· ·upwards.· Right?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·If you want to call it "point of
`
`11· ·inflection" -- I guess you can call it whatever you
`
`12· ·want to call it.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Well, I just wanted to label it so we can
`
`14· ·easily reference it.
`
`15· · · · · · ·How about we label that point "A"?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·Sure.· Could I borrow a pen?
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Sure, here.
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
`
`19· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·And then the next point at the top where
`
`21· ·the mask goes horizontal again, let's label that
`
`22· ·point "B."· Okay?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`24· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·And then the next point at the end of the
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 16, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·horizontal, "C."
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·So those are points on the mask that we're
`
`·3· ·labeling "C."· Right?
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Right.
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·And then the last point where the diagonal
`
`·8· ·goes down and then meets the other horizontal at the
`
`·9· ·bottom, that will be point "D."· Okay?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
`
`11· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·So each of these points we've labeled "A,"
`
`13· ·"B," "C," and "D" are points on the mask.· Right?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Those are points on the mask, yes.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And let's look at the beginning of
`
`16· ·this reference.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So if you look at page 1 of the Petrovic
`
`18· ·reference, in Section II it says "Proposed
`
`19· ·Modulation Technique."
`
`20· · · · · · ·And the sentence there reads:· First, we
`
`21· ·propose doubling the channel bandwidth.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· The next sentence reads:· This
`
`25· ·should be done by moving the current emission mask
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 17, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·boundaries away from the center frequency by
`
`·2· ·plus/minus 12.5 kilohertz.· Right?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do see that.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then it says:· This would give
`
`·5· ·a 35 kilohertz pass band in the middle of the
`
`·6· ·channel.· Right?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So could you point out this
`
`·9· ·35 kilohertz pass band in this diagram?
`
`10· · · · · · ·Well, let me rephrase the question.· Maybe
`
`11· ·it will help.
`
`12· · · · · · ·The 35 kilohertz pass band is the
`
`13· ·difference between points B and C.· Right?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Well, the distance between points B and C
`
`15· ·is not exactly accurate, in terms of how we measure
`
`16· ·the distance.
`
`17· · · · · · ·Would need to look at the X axis, which
`
`18· ·usually is drawn at the bottom.
`
`19· · · · · · ·And the distance is in the frequency
`
`20· ·that's between the frequency corresponding to the
`
`21· ·point B and the frequency corresponding to the point
`
`22· ·C.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·So do you know whether that frequency
`
`24· ·difference between B and C is exactly 35 kilohertz?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·Again, the frequency difference between
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 18, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·the two frequencies -- meaning, the frequency
`
`·2· ·corresponding to the point B and the frequency
`
`·3· ·corresponding to the point C -- is 35 kilohertz.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that is the pass band
`
`·5· ·referenced in the article.· Right?
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·When you say "the article," you mean in
`
`·7· ·this paper.· Right?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Right.
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·Yes, that's a 35 kilohertz pass band.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the limits of that pass band are
`
`11· ·where the mask first starts requiring attenuation.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Is that right?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·The pass band is the region of the
`
`14· ·frequencies where there is no attenuation.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`16· · · · A.· ·So that is the pass band.
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So in other words, the mask places
`
`18· ·no restrictions on the signal inside that pass band.
`
`19· ·Right?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`21· · · · A.· ·That's a question of the appropriate
`
`22· ·interpretation of the mask.
`
`23· · · · · · ·And the FCC has at least a couple of
`
`24· ·different interpretations.
`
`25· · · · · · ·So that just depends on exactly what ones
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 19, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·you're looking at.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Well, let's look at this article exactly.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·So in this article here in Petrovic, how
`
`·4· ·is that mask defined?
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·That mask represents the point of power
`
`·7· ·which an unmodulated carrier would have.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So between points B and C, that would be
`
`·9· ·full signal power.· Right?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Between the frequencies corresponding to
`
`11· ·point B and C, that horizontal portion of the mask
`
`12· ·indicates that -- or that would correspond to the
`
`13· ·power emitted by an unmodulated carrier.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So that indicates that the mask
`
`15· ·places no restriction or no attenuation on the
`
`16· ·signal during those two frequencies indicated by B
`
`17· ·and C.· Right?
`
`18· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · · A.· ·I don't understand the question.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does the mask require any signal
`
`21· ·attenuation between frequencies B and C?
`
`22· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`23· · · · A.· ·What the mask indicates is that the
`
`24· ·frequencies corresponding between B and C, or any
`
`25· ·frequency between those corresponding to B and C,
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 20, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·would be -- or can be transmitted at the power of
`
`·2· ·the unmodulated carrier.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·So at full power.· Right?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·I don't know what you mean by "full
`
`·5· ·power."
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·So what do you mean by "the power of the
`
`·7· ·unmodulated carrier"?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·I mean the power that an unmodulated
`
`·9· ·carrier would have.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the mask doesn't require any
`
`11· ·attenuation of the signal compared to that power
`
`12· ·between points B and C.· Right?
`
`13· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Once again, what the mask indicates is:
`
`15· ·That horizontal line represents the power that is
`
`16· ·transmitted or would be transmitted if an
`
`17· ·unmodulated carrier were to be transmitted.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Does the mask require any attenuation in
`
`19· ·between those two frequencies?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Attenuation relative to what?
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let's look at the frequencies
`
`23· ·between points A and B.· Okay?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Does the mask require attenuation of the
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 21, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·signal in that frequency range?
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·I assume you mean frequencies that
`
`·3· ·correspond to the point A and the frequency that
`
`·4· ·corresponds to point B.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Right.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·So if I had the ruler, I would draw a
`
`·7· ·straight line on the frequency axis.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·I'm going to try to do it by hand.· That's
`
`·9· ·kind of what -- as straight as my hand will draw.
`
`10· · · · · · ·So there is a frequency corresponding to
`
`11· ·point A, and there is a frequency corresponding to
`
`12· ·point B.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Um-hum.
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Would it be okay with you, and maybe
`
`15· ·helpful to all of us, if we just labeled those
`
`16· ·frequencies?
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So I'm going to label this "F1" and
`
`19· ·"F2."
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·How about "FA" and "FB" to match the
`
`21· ·points?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Sure.· That makes sense.
`
`23· · · · · · ·So, I'm sorry, go ahead with the question
`
`24· ·now.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·So between frequency -- let me see....
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 22, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·I'll just draw that line that you just
`
`·2· ·drew as well.
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Counsel annotates.)
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·So between frequencies FA and FB, the mask
`
`·5· ·requires attenuation of this signal.· Right?
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·It requires attenuation relative to what
`
`·7· ·the power of an unmodulated carrier would be.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So now let's add another point, FC
`
`·9· ·and FD.· Right?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness complies.)
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·So between frequencies FC and FD, the mask
`
`12· ·does also require attenuation relative to the signal
`
`13· ·power of an unmodulated carrier.· Right?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Yes, very abrupt.
`
`15· · · · · · ·It requires at least some attenuation,
`
`16· ·which varies depending on which frequency -- exact
`
`17· ·ones you're looking at.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So between frequencies FB and FC,
`
`19· ·the mask does not require attenuation of the signal
`
`20· ·relative to the signal power of an unmodulated
`
`21· ·carrier.· Right?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It does not require attenuation
`
`23· ·relative to the power of the unmodulated carrier.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the requirements of the mask are
`
`25· ·basically given -- in the frequency range FA, FB are
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 23, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·given by the points along the line between points A
`
`·2· ·and B.· Right?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· Could you repeat that.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· The requirements, the attenuation
`
`·5· ·requirements of the mask are given by the points
`
`·6· ·along the line between points A and B -- right? --
`
`·7· ·for the frequency range FA to FB?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·It's a graphical representation of the
`
`10· ·minimal required attenuation at the given frequency.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I think you've already said --
`
`12· ·but correct me if I'm wrong -- I think you've
`
`13· ·already said that the frequency difference between
`
`14· ·FB and FC is 35 kilohertz.· Right?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know what the frequency
`
`17· ·difference between FA and FB is?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Based on this disclosure by Petrovic, I do
`
`19· ·not.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let's go look at that first
`
`21· ·paragraph again on the front page of Petrovic under
`
`22· ·Section II.
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Um-hum.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·So we just read up to -- this would give a
`
`25· ·35 kilohertz pass band.· Right?
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 24, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·So the next part of that sentence says the
`
`·3· ·pass band is in the middle of the channel and a
`
`·4· ·7.5 kilohertz guard band on each side for the skirts
`
`·5· ·of the spectrum.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Where is the guard band in this
`
`·9· ·diagram?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·It's not calibrated carefully to be able
`
`11· ·to see exactly where it is.· But one can approximate
`
`12· ·it or at least lower bound it.
`
`13· · · · · · ·It's somewhere between FA and FB.· And I
`
`14· ·believe I attempted to do that in my witness
`
`15· ·statement.
`
`16· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness perusing.)
`
`17· · · · A.· ·No.· I guess I didn't point it out in the
`
`18· ·witness statement.
`
`19· · · · · · ·But the guard band is 7.5 kilohertz.· And
`
`20· ·those skirts extend over more than 7.5 kilohertz.
`
`21· · · · · · ·So the 7.5 kilohertz that Petrovic
`
`22· ·contemplates is, like I said, somewhere between FA
`
`23· ·and FB on the left side and somewhere between FC and
`
`24· ·FD on the right side.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·So do you know where -- how far the
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 25, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·frequency difference is between FA and FB?
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·It's more than 7.5 kilohertz.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·How do you know?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·There is a couple of ways to know it.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·One is that the guard band is
`
`·6· ·7.5 kilohertz, so the guard band has to be within
`
`·7· ·the skirts.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And just looking at the figure, a person
`
`·9· ·of ordinary skill in the art would understand that,
`
`10· ·when these figure are drawn, they're drawn as best
`
`11· ·as one can draw them to some scale.
`
`12· · · · · · ·So looking at the figure, looking at the
`
`13· ·horizontal distance, one can determine that that
`
`14· ·distance from FA to FB is larger than
`
`15· ·7.5 kilohertz -- because if, for no other reason,
`
`16· ·one uses the spacing between two adjacent
`
`17· ·subcarriers, which is 5 kilohertz, one can see that
`
`18· ·the distance from carrier 1 to carrier -- from the
`
`19· ·leftmost carrier -- I'm going to call it "1" -- to
`
`20· ·the next one, which is "2," is 5 kilohertz.
`
`21· · · · · · ·And the distance between FA and FB is
`
`22· ·clearly more than 150 percent of that distance
`
`23· ·between the first and the second carrier.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·So your basis for saying that -- so --
`
`25· ·okay -- so you're saying that the distance
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 26, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·between -- or the frequency range between FA and FB
`
`·2· ·is larger than 7.5 kilohertz.· Right?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And your basis for saying that, if
`
`·5· ·I understood you correctly, is by looking at this
`
`·6· ·diagram and saying, in this diagram it is shown as
`
`·7· ·if it is bigger.· Right?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·I said that there are at least two
`
`10· ·different ways of reaching that conclusion.
`
`11· · · · · · ·One is based on the description of the
`
`12· ·channel structure, which is using English words.
`
`13· · · · · · ·And the other one is based on the figure.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Either one of them alone provides that
`
`15· ·support.
`
`16· · · · · · ·And certainly, if one looks at both of
`
`17· ·those in conjunction with each other, that simply
`
`18· ·gets reinforced.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·So please explain the first point.
`
`20· · · · · · ·I think I understand what you're saying
`
`21· ·about the diagram, your second point.· But please
`
`22· ·explain the first point.
`
`23· · · · · · ·You said you can tell this by the channel
`
`24· ·structure.
`
`25· · · · · · ·So what do you mean by that?
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 27, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·So the text says these would give a
`
`·2· ·35 kilohertz pass band in the middle of the channel
`
`·3· ·and 7.5 kilohertz guard bands on each side of the
`
`·4· ·skirts of the spectrum.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So the 7.5 kilohertz guard band on the
`
`·6· ·side of the skirt -- a person of ordinary skill in
`
`·7· ·the art understands that that guard band is at least
`
`·8· ·a portion of the skirt.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·So the skirt, which goes from FB to FA on
`
`10· ·the left and from FC to FD on the right, would have
`
`11· ·to be at least 7.5 kilohertz.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·But you can't tell how much or whether it
`
`13· ·is exactly 7.5 kilohertz or bigger?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Based on the description provided there, I
`
`15· ·cannot tell if it's bigger.
`
`16· · · · · · ·But the figure supports the point that
`
`17· ·it's bigger.
`
`18· · · · · · ·But to the extent that it's -- to the
`
`19· ·extent that the figure is not drawn carefully enough
`
`20· ·and it's not precise enough, one would be certain
`
`21· ·that that distance is at least 7.5 kilohertz.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·So does that mean that the distance
`
`23· ·between FA and FB could be exactly 7.5 kilohertz?
`
`24· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection --
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Because a second ago you said it could
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v. MTel., Page 28, IPR2016-00768
`
`
`
`·1· ·not.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · MS. RAYMOND:· Objection to form.
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·A person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`·4· ·reading this would not conclude that it is 7.5;
`
`·5· ·would conclude that it's more than 7.5, without
`
`·6· ·being able to decide exactly how much it is.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·And if one was more diligent, one could
`
`·8· ·take a ruler and measure it and come up with a
`
`·9· ·closer approximation as to what that is -- you know,
`
`10· ·what that distance is -- without being certain of
`
`11· ·the exact value.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·And that's based on the diagram --
`
`13· ·right? -- again?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·As I said, in order to come up with a
`
`15· ·better -- or with an approximation as opposed to a
`
`16· ·bound as to what it is, one could use the figure.
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know what kind of tool is
`
`18· ·used to generate this type of graph?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·A spectrum analyzer.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·A spectrum analyzer.
`
`21· · · · · · ·The spectrum analyzer would show you the X
`
`22· ·and Y axis and the signal measurement.· Right?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·But a spectrum analyzer would not show the
`
`25· ·dashed line for the mask.· Right?
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2012, Aruba v
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