throbber

`
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`____________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`PERSONALIZED MEDIA COMMUNICATIONS, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`____________
`
`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`____________
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
`Held: June 6, 2017
`____________
`
`
`
`
`Before KARL D. EASTHOM, TRENTON A. WARD, and GEORGIANNA
`W. BRADEN, Administrative Patent Judges.
`
`
`
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
`
`
`MARCUS E. SERNEL, ESQ.
`JOEL R. MERKIN, ESQ.
`ALAN M. RABINOWITZ, ESQ.
`Kirkland & Ellis LLP
`300 North LaSalle Street
`Chicago, Illinois 60654
`
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
`
`
`DOUGLAS J. KLINE, ESQ.
`STEPHEN T. SCHREINER, ESQ.
`Goodwin Procter LLP
`100 Northern Avenue
`Boston, Massachusetts 02210
`
`
`
`
`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Tuesday, June 6,
`
`2017, commencing at 10:37 a.m., at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office,
`600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia.
`
`
`
`
`
` 2
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`- - - - -
`JUDGE WARD: We are back on the record to hear arguments in
`the second case set for today. It's IPR 2016-00755.
`Mr. Sernel, when you're ready.
`MR. SERNEL: May I approach, Your Honor?
`JUDGE WARD: You may.
`May I assume five minutes for rebuttal again, Mr. Sernel?
`MR. SERNEL: Yes, please.
`May I proceed?
`JUDGE WARD: Yes.
`MR. SERNEL: So the second proceeding we have today focuses
`on the '091 patent, and if we could turn to slide 1 of my deck, the instituted
`grounds span a number of claims, and there are more grounds here to deal
`with. Three main references are Gilhousen, Mason, and Frezza, and for
`certain of the claims, we have combinations with a Block reference with
`both -- with all of Gilhousen, Mason, and Frezza.
`If we turn to slide 2, which is just the '091 patent. Again, it comes
`from the same PMC patent family, the same specification as the '635. The
`one difference for this proceeding versus the prior proceeding that we just
`dealt with is there is a dispute about priority. PMC argues that -- claims
`priority back to 1981, and it's our position, Apple's position -- and the Board
`preliminarily found in its institution decision -- that it's only entitled to 1987.
`So that's where I'd like to begin in terms of my discussion, the priority
`discussion.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`
`
` 3
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`Just quickly, slide 3, those are the challenged independent claims.
`Slide 4 lays out just the issues. Priority date, and we have got a few of the
`same claim construction issues that we can get into it again if you would like
`but probably don't want to spend as much time on them in this proceeding,
`and then I will get into the prior art.
`So slide 5 is the priority date. We've listed -- we've included many
`reasons in our papers why PMC is not entitled to the 1981 priority date. I'm
`going to focus on a couple of them here today in the oral hearing.
`First of all, PMC is estopped from claiming priority to the 1981
`date. They disclaimed priority to the 1981 disclosure in prosecution, and we
`believe they need to be held to that disclaimer during prosecution. You can
`see on slide 5, at the left, we have included some of the excerpts from the
`file history where these disclaimers were made.
`And it's important to note that in each of these situations, they are
`not talking about certain claims. They are talking about the present
`application. The present application asserts priority based on the 1987
`disclosure, and the bottom left -- this is Exhibit 1043 at 21 -- specifically this
`disclaimer of priority was made in response to a Schneller double patenting
`rejection.
`And so the argument was made -- a Schneller double patenting
`rejection is not appropriate because we could not claim priority to 1981; we
`are only claiming priority to 1987. These statements were clear statements
`to made to disclaim priority to '81 in prosecution, and as the Board in its
`institution found appropriately -- this is the institution decision at 26 --
`patentee clearly disclaimed priority with respect to the claims then pending
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 4
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`and rejected under Schneller, and, in fact, benefited from that disclaimer in
`that the Schneller rejection was overcome by this disclaimer to the 1981
`date.
`
`Now, PMC makes a variety of arguments. One argument they
`make is that, well, that only related to the claims then pending at the time. It
`doesn't relate to claims as they issued in the '091 patent. A couple of things
`I'd point out in response to that.
`First of all, you can see the disclaimers were made regarding "the
`present application." It wasn't limited to particular claims or claims then
`pending. These were broad statements about the present application and
`without -- without qualification.
`Two, the claims as they evolved didn't evolve in any material way
`to disassociate them from the disclaimer that was made.
`And then three -- if we could turn forward to slide 6 -- it's
`important to note that the Federal Circuit has looked at situations like this in
`the past, and I'd specifically call the Board's attention to the Hakim case --
`this is 479 F.3d 1313, Federal Circuit, 2007 -- where in the Hakim case, the
`applicant had made a disclaimer, and the argument was made by Hakim that,
`well, that was in a parent application, and so when we have a child
`application that has -- claims a different scope, it shouldn't apply.
`The Federal Circuit said that when a disclaimer is made, you need
`to clearly rescind or take back that disclaimer if that's what you want to do.
`The public has a right to rely on disclaimers that are made, and if you make
`a disclaimer, you can't just back away from it by including different claims
`in a child application. You have got to make a clear rescind -- you have to
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 5
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`clearly rescind the disclaimer. That's what Hakim tells us. That never
`happened in this prosecution history. PMC is stuck with their disclaimer.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: But the key really is is how different these
`claims are, right, because if they're not -- if they aren't -- if they are
`materially differently, the disclaimer only goes to the claims themselves, not
`the whole application.
`MR. SERNEL: I would actually disagree with that because that
`was the argument that was made in Hakim, that, well, we have got a child
`application which claims a different scope, these are different claims --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Oh, Hakim did have different -- had the
`same issue? I'm sorry.
`MR. SERNEL: Yes, absolutely the same issue.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Okay.
`MR. SERNEL: So Hakim had a disclaimer, and then they
`argued -- and it was not a date disclaimer; it was a scope disclaimer. And
`they said, well, we filed a child application, it's got broader claims, the scope
`disclaimer shouldn't apply to this subsequent application where we have
`cancelled the prior claims, abandoned the prior application, and substituted
`in new broader claims.
`And so the exact argument was made in Hakim, and the Federal
`Circuit said, well, when you have got a disclaimer in the file history, you've
`got to do something clear to rescind that disclaimer, not simply suggest, oh,
`well, the claims are a different scope and it doesn't apply.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`
`
`
`
`
` 6
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`JUDGE WARD: So, Mr. Sernel, you agree that it is possible to
`rescind -- for an applicant to rescind a disclaimer; just that here, the Patent
`Owner didn't sufficiently make it clear.
`MR. SERNEL: Yes, absolutely, and you can see our quote from
`Hakim on slide 6 says exactly that. "Although a disclaimer made during
`prosecution can be rescinded ... the prosecution history must be sufficiently
`clear to inform the examiner that the previous disclaimer ... may need to be
`revisited."
`And so, yes, you can rescind it. It did not happen here. And, in
`fact, if you look at how prosecution proceeded to the issuance of the '091
`patent claims, throughout the entirety of prosecution, the examiner was
`relying on intervening prior art, you know, art that was 1983, 1984 priority
`date, including one of the art references we are going to look at here, the
`Mason reference.
`So there's nothing, when you look at the file history, that suggests
`that they rescinded this disclaimer and were officially, you know, formally
`seeking the 1981 date. Everything dictates that this disclaimer was made, it
`was not rescinded, and, in fact, it was assumed from then on that the
`examiner was dealing with a 1987 priority date.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Procedurally, do you agree you have the
`burden to show that there is no priority back to 1981?
`MR. SERNEL: I don't know that I would agree with that. I think
`they may bear the burden to claim priority to an earlier application when you
`have a CIP. Certainly I think we meet that burden and then some in terms of
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`
`
` 7
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`the arguments that we have included in our papers, but I'm not sure I would
`agree with that statement.
`So the second argument, turning to slide 7, the second argument,
`even if they're not estopped from claiming the 1981 priority date, I think if
`you dig into the substance of the analysis of the priority analysis, they
`don't get there either. And the second argument I wanted to focus on is with
`respect to the term "programming," and there was some discussion about
`this in the prior proceeding.
`As the Board is well aware, in the 1987 specification, the term
`"programming" was broadened significantly from what it was defined to be
`in the 1981 specification. "Programming," in 1981, was defined to be
`everything transmitted over television or radio, intended for communication
`of entertainment or to instruct or to inform.
`In '87, that term was defined to refer to everything that is
`transmitted electronically to entertain, instruct, or inform, including TV,
`radio, but also broadcast, print, and computer programming, as well as
`compelling media programming.
`And so the appropriate way to do this, as the Board has explained
`in its institution decision here and in prior decisions, is to look at -- okay,
`look at the patent as issued, look at the definition in the 1981 specification
`and the patent as issued, and that defines what "programming" means.
`And then the priority analysis then looks at, okay, going back to
`1981, is there a disclosure in 1981 for this broad definition? The answer is
`very clearly no. Certainly everything that was transmitted electronically to
`entertain, instruct, or inform in '87 is not described in 1981. Things like
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 8
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`digital video, computer programming, transmission of combined media
`programming, those things are not described in the 1981 specification, and
`so it fails on analysis of this limitation as well.
`Turning ahead to slide 8, the Board has addressed this issue
`previously. As I mentioned, in the institution decision in this proceeding --
`that's at the bottom or on the right of slide 8, paper 14 at 22 -- and walking
`through that, the analysis, and the Board actually adopted and incorporated
`by reference the findings and reasoning in the '1527 final written decision
`and hearing decision where this issue -- a very similar issue was addressed,
`and we have called out those on the left-hand side.
`Moving ahead to slide 9, PMC makes an argument that the Board
`has misapplied the PowerOasis case. We believe that the Board has
`correctly relied on the PowerOasis case to reject PMC's argument. Again,
`the proper analysis is to look at what's in the patent as issued, defining the
`terms based on that, then look back to the 1981 specification, which --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: So you distinguish the case Patent Owner
`cites because Patent Owner's case only applies to when you change the term
`in the claim? Is that basically your distinction?
`MR. SERNEL: I'm not sure which case you're talking about.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Patent Owner cited a case that said you
`should just look back to 1981 to determine what the claims mean; ignore
`what you're doing in 1987.
`MR. SERNEL: I think they made an argument that that somehow
`was their reading of PowerOasis, and I think that's totally wrong, that
`PowerOasis tells you look to patent as issued, define the term, then set -- the
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 9
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`process, look back to the 1981 specification to assess priority. And so that's
`what I think you've done in your prior analysis of this issue, that's the
`appropriate analysis, and you find that there's multiple instances of things
`that are included within that broad definition that are not sufficiently
`described in 1981 and, thus, there is no appropriate claim of priority back to
`1981.
`
`If we move ahead, slide 10, and I don't want to get back into it, but
`the same decrypt/encrypt issue is at issue here as well, the same basic
`evidence involved.
`Slide 12, I don't need to get into it in detail, but it's a very similar
`type of situation, where they claim in the '091 file history there's another
`disclaimer, but if you look at it, you can see that they actually acquiesced in
`the examiner continuing to say that Mason -- which has, they would suggest,
`you know, arguably, analog components as well as digital components --
`taught encrypted, you know, transmissions, and then they amended the
`claims to add a different limitation, and that's what got the examiner to issue
`the patent. It wasn't any disclaimer of claim scope that limited the concept
`of encryption/decryption to an all --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: What about Patent Owner's argument that it
`doesn't really matter what the examiner's reasons were for allowance, that
`they made the argument and that's all that matters? Do you have any cases
`to the con -- do you have any case support to show that's not right?
`MR. SERNEL: Well, I don't know if I have a specific case that
`says that that's not right. I think you look at the totality of the prosecution
`history. Number one, there is no statements about claim scope itself saying,
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 10
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`"I am going to limit the claim scope of the terms encryption/decryption to
`something narrower than what they would otherwise be." There are no
`statements that come close to saying that, and that's typically what's required
`for a clear and unmistakable disclaimer to limit claim scope.
`The things that they point to are simply arguments to try to
`distinguish factually these art references, and then, again, they have tried to
`suggest that somehow those arguments are what led to issuance. My point is
`to respond to that and say, no, that's not what happened. The examiner
`never bought into this concept that they had limited the claim scope. In fact,
`they had to make other amendments to gain issuance of the claims. And so I
`don't know that just because the examiner didn't buy it, that's dispositive. I
`think it's relevant evidence for you -- the Board to consider.
`Moving ahead to another claim construction issue, that's -- I guess
`slide 15 is my first slide, "an encrypted digital information transmission
`including encrypted information," a similar type of issue where they argue
`that this phrase requires that the transmission must be all digital, and we
`have several responses to this.
`I think, first of all, if you look just to the claim language, that
`refutes PMC's position because it talks about receiving an encrypted digital
`information transmission, including encrypted information, implying that
`you can have encrypted information that's nondigital, and that's exactly what
`the Board found in its institution decision, paper 14 at 8.
`If we turn to the next slide, slide 16, PMC relied on transmissions
`that include both analog and digital information as providing the written
`description support for the challenged claims. So they pointed to these what
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 11
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`are referred to as composite signals, where you have analog and digital
`information, as being the written description support for an encrypted digital
`information transmission, again acknowledging that this doesn't have to be
`an all digital process, and inconsistent with PMC's attempt to read these as
`being an all digital transmission.
`And then if we look at slide 17, we can look at other claims, both
`from the '091 patent and back to the '635 patent, to see that they've done this
`in different ways in showing that an encrypted digital information
`transmission, including encrypted information, is not all digital. You can
`see here, claim 26 of '091, no digital information would be required at all
`based on a plain reading of that.
`And then we look at the '635 patent claims, for example, claim 18,
`and you can see here is an effort to make this an all digital transmission
`where they talk about "wherein the at least one encrypted digital information
`transmission is unaccompanied by any non-digital information
`transmission."
`So for that transmission, yes, that might be all digital. Certainly
`when we only have an encrypted digital information transmission that
`includes encrypted information, reading these claims and looking at how
`they have done it in these different claims, that's not an all digital
`requirement. We think PMC's argument in that respect is not supported.
`JUDGE WARD: Mr. Sernel, can you give me an example of what
`you would consider to be a composite signal?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`
`
`
`
`
` 12
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`MR. SERNEL: So, you know, you could have a composite signal
`where you have an analog television transmission embedded with digital
`control signals.
`JUDGE WARD: What about an analog transmission where data
`was embedded in the VEI? Would you consider that?
`MR. SERNEL: Sure, sure.
`JUDGE WARD: So that is within your --
`MR. SERNEL: Again, I am not saying that that's necessarily the
`right definition of "composite signals." I have seen that terminology used to
`describe what you have just posited.
`If we turn now to slide 18, this is the definition or construction of
`"locating." PMC seeks a very narrow construction as the basis for their
`arguments on this term, and it's a construction that they argue for, "to
`determine the place or position of something already in existence," and that
`somehow has to be already in existence in order to be located.
`That's not consistent with the plain meaning of "locating." It's not
`consistent with PMC's own usage of the term "locating" in their specification
`and the parts of their specification that they pointed to for written description
`support for this term. You can see -- and this is -- the Board has already
`called this out in its institution decision, paper 14 at 34, where the term
`"located" was equated with things like identifying and decrypting or
`processing and decrypting to then locate a, for example, decryption key.
`And so the specification is inconsistent with this narrow definition that PMC
`attempts to argue.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`
`
` 13
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`Heading to slide 19, the terms "processor" and "processor
`instructions" are also at issue. You can see here -- again, these are issues
`that the Board has dealt with previously, and much of the same evidence has
`already been looked at.
`If we move actually ahead to slide 21, you can see here the only
`dispute regarding "processor instructions" is really the meaning of
`"processor," so it sort of goes right back to the fight about what a processor
`is. You can see we have included from their paper 20, the response, at 24,
`that it's the "processor instruction" definition, our definition, they claim is
`incorrect for incorporating the incorrect definition of "processor."
`And then the Board's construction in the institution decision we
`think appropriately captures the broadest reasonable interpretation, and you
`can see "processor instructions" were preliminarily defined by the Board to
`mean "instructions, including control or informational signals, to a device
`that operates on data." That's the institution decision at 19. We think that
`appropriately captures the BRI of "processor instructions."
`Moving ahead to Gilhousen, that's the first primary reference, you
`can see at slide 22 -- one quick note I'll make here is you can see in the title
`itself that we've talked about using the terms "encryption" and
`"descrambling" and "scrambling" interchangeably. You can see Gilhousen
`specifically uses these terms interchangeably, again supporting the concept
`that in the 1980s, there was no well-defined line between "encryption" and
`"descrambling." It talks about signal encryption for controlling scrambling,
`so interchangeably using these terms.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`
`
` 14
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`If we move ahead now to -- I am going to jump ahead to slide 26.
`There's an argument about whether Gilhousen discloses "determining a
`fashion in which said receiver station locates a first decryption key" and then
`"locating said first decryption key." You can see we've laid out at the top
`right of slide 26 how Mr. Wechselberger has annotated Figure 6 from
`Gilhousen. This is Wechselberger declaration, 1001 exhibit, at paragraph
`128; and then there's paragraph 126 from Mr. Wechselberger's declaration
`explaining this.
`But there's an instruct-to-enable signal, a working key generator
`that then determines the fashion of locating the decryption key. That's
`determined by the working key that's generated by that working key
`generator. And then the keystream generator uses that working key to then
`locate the decryption key, which is the keystream, and this is explained in
`column 14 of Gilhousen, meeting these requirements of the claim, and our
`position is laid out at petition 20 to 21.
`Moving on to slide 27 --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Again, does Gilhousen use the keystream to
`encrypt the information?
`MR. SERNEL: Yes.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: It seems like they do encryption on audio. I
`wasn't clear about the video portion.
`MR. SERNEL: I believe it encrypts both. It encrypts both, and --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: And then they send it back out into audio,
`right? So it actually is digital information at first and it says it goes through
`a DA, and I know in the audio part, it says an DA is actually PAM, pulse
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 15
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`amplitude modulation, so it's actually a real strange hybrid. It's digital stuff
`sent out called analog, but it seems to be a digital signal to me. I'm not --
`MR. SERNEL: So I think some of it may be sent in analog form,
`some of it's sent in digital form, and then it does go through the A/D
`converter before the decryption process is done on the receiver side.
`And just addressing the "locating" argument again, slide 27, you
`can see that PMC's, again, argument regarding the these terms is dependent
`on its "already in existence" argument. If we turn ahead -- actually, let me
`turn ahead to slide 28. You can see that even if that's required, that is met,
`as was explained in the institution decision by the Board at 33, paper 14,
`because what's happening is this is a system where it's encrypted with the
`keystream on the transmitter side, and then that keystream is regenerated on
`the receiver side to then decrypt the information. And so the keystream
`already does exist, and then it's regenerated on the receiver side, thus
`locating it.
`If we move ahead to slide 29, this is another argument that they
`make regarding "decrypting said encrypted information," and "decrypt a
`video portion of said programming." This turns on the "decrypt" argument
`again, and so I won't belabor that. This is just based on claim construction.
`I will move on and talk about slide 30. You can see that even
`under PMC's construction, the limitation -- these limitations that we were
`talking about for claims 13, 20, and 15 are met because Gilhousen performs
`scrambling, descrambling, or encryption/decryption in digital format, as
`their expert admits, and this gets to Judge Easthom's point.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`
`
`
`
` 16
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`You can see that when those operations are done, they go through
`this A/D converter, and as their expert, Dr. Weaver, acknowledged -- this is
`Exhibit 1054 at page 85 -- that when their -- when that process is done, it's
`done in digital form.
`Moving ahead to slide 31, this is another argument that PMC
`makes that Gilhousen does not somehow pass the instruct/enable signal to a
`processor. This argument, again, turns on the claim construction of what
`"processor" is. I would point out that -- this is at the bottom of slide 31, and
`it's an excerpt from column 14, 14 to 19 -- that the specification specifically
`talks about the work that the working key generator is being -- is doing as
`"processing the initialization vector signal," on line 191, again, consistent
`with a construction that that is a processor that's doing processing.
`Then if you turn to slide 32, Gilhousen specifically -- there's an
`argument made that somehow claim 20 requires not only two
`instruct-to-enable signals but then also separate processor instructions. We
`think that's an inappropriate and improper reading of the claim. The claim
`simply requires a first instruct-to-enable signal, including a first processor
`instruction. Those are met, as is set forth on slide 32, and this is paragraphs
`144 and 150 of the Wechselberger declaration, 1001, and then he has
`annotated figures that we have on the right of slide 32.
`If I could just jump ahead quickly to slide 34, the Block reference,
`the Block reference fills in the gap in all of the references, Gilhousen,
`Mason, and Frezza, with respect to the requirement of "storing information
`evidencing said step of decrypting." Block specifically teaches that for
`impulse-type purchases, you could have Block -- this functionality that
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 17
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`Block teaches that would store a use code, and so if something was
`purchased and then decrypted on the receiver side, you could store a use
`code, and that allows for these impulse-type --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: So are you arguing that you won't get that
`use code unless you decrypt? Because I think Patent Owner, your friends on
`the other side, are saying you may not decrypt even though you have a use
`code.
`
`MR. SERNEL: Yeah. So I think they had an erroneous reading of
`Block. Certainly Block talks about in the specification -- this is on slide
`35 -- that you are going to implement this in this a logical way, where if
`you're having to purchase something and decrypt it, it's going to accurately
`store the use code.
`I think there may be some lines that suggest that if you weren't
`having to decrypt, you might store a use code as well, but those are the
`things that don't need decryption in the first place. So a person of skill in the
`art is going to implement this in a logical way and implement these use
`codes in a way that, where there's decryption of something that requires
`decryption, you are going to store a use code. This is an obvious
`combination where --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: I think when we instituted, we said
`something along those lines, sort of looking at what your petition had. I
`think one of your friend's arguments now is that maybe that's not fair, that
`we -- you never made that argument in your petition about reasonableness.
`MR. SERNEL: I think we did, and I think Mr. Wechselberger did
`make that -- and I see line -- paragraph 166 in the initial declaration I think
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 18
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`may have addressed that point, but, you know, I think that would be the way
`a person of skill in the art would look to add Block to something like a pay
`TV system, subscription system, like Gilhousen, like Mason, like Frezza, to
`add this impulse purchase type functionality to it.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Okay. What about their motivational
`arguments? I know we've -- I'm sorry to push you along.
`MR. SERNEL: I don't know -- like I said, I think that this is just
`an obvious thing to be motivated to add. You have paid subscription TV
`references, like Gilhousen, Mason, and Frezza. If you want to add impulse
`purchase type functionality to it, Block tells you how to do that and says, if
`you're going to do it, you have to be able to then track on the receiver side
`what purchases have been made, and that's storing the use code. I think this
`is an obvious --
`JUDGE EASTHOM: What about the long list of things that would
`have to be done to make that happen, all the modifications?
`MR. SERNEL: I think those -- that's just a parade of imaginary
`things. I think this is an incredibly straightforward thing to fit together. It's
`simply adding that little bit of functionality from Block that has some kind
`of trigger that can store a use code when decryption happens.
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Finally, if we do decide that Patent Owner's
`correct, they disclaimed and they narrowed this term, limited to digital
`information, are you -- are you still contending that -- is Gilhousen the only
`one that you're contending satisfies that?
`MR. SERNEL: I think Gilhousen -- again, Mason arguably would
`meet even a narrower definition of decrypting.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`
`
`
`
` 19
`
`

`

`Case IPR2016-00755
`Patent 8,191,091
`
`
`JUDGE EASTHOM: And what would Gilhousen be decrypting
`exactly? What part of the program would be decrypted in Gilhousen? What
`part of the information, I guess? This claim says "encrypted information."
`MR. SERNEL: Yeah. I think if you look at Gilhousen, I mean, it
`has boxes that specifically talk about decrypting and encrypting both the
`audio and/or video, and so I think it's encrypting and decrypting both of
`those.
`
`JUDGE EASTHOM: Okay.
`MR. SERNEL: I will reserve my remaining time for rebuttal.
`Thank you.
`JUDGE WARD: Thank you, Counsel. You have 2 1/2 minutes
`for rebuttal remaining.
`Mr. Kline, when you're ready.
`MR. KLINE: Thank you.
`If he can step up, Your Honor.
`JUDGE WARD: Yes, you may approach.
`Thank you, Counsel.
`MR. KLINE: Thank you, Your Honor. Again, Doug Kline for
`Patent Owner, PMC.
`Perhaps the best thing to do is turn directly to slide 6. That is
`where we begin to address the priority question. I would like to, in the time
`available to me, address priority. There are some claim construction issues,
`and I certainly don't want to flog "decrypt" any longer than necessary, but I
`do want to point out that some statements were made during prosecution of
`this '091 patent itself that bear on this issue.

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket