UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` ---o0o---
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`Page 1
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`WHATSAPP, INC., )
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` Applicant, ) IPR 2016-00717
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` vs. ) IPR 2016-00718
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`TRIPLAY COMMUNICATIONS, LTD., )
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` Patent Owner. )
`
`______________________________)
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` DEPOSITION OF DAVID KLAUSNER
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` THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 2016
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` Job No. NJ2480287
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`800-227-8440
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`PATENT OWNER'S EXHIBIT 2008
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`1 I N D E X
`2 EXAMINATION PAGE
`3 DAVID KLAUSNER
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` (BY MR. WEIDER) 6
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`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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`10 Deposition of DAVID KLAUSNER, taken on behalf of
`11 Applicant, at Cooley, 3175 Hanover Street, Palo Alto,
`12 California, commencing at 9:04 a.m., Thursday, November
`13 10, 2016, before Kelli Combs, CSR No. 7705.
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`1 EXHIBIT INDEX
`2 (PREVIOUSLY MARKED)
`3 EXHIBIT PAGE
`4 1002 29
`5 1101 30
`6 1102 29
`7 1103 10
`8 1104 75
`9 1105 37
`10 2103 7
`11 2104 22
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`1 APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
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`23
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`FOR APPLICANT:
`4 COOLEY
`5 BY: YUAN LIANG, ESQ.
`6 11951 Freedom Drive
`7 Reston, Virginia 20190-5656
`8 703.456.8656
`9 yliang@cooley.com
`10 -and-
`11 LATHAM & WATKINS
`12 BY: YASAMIN PARSAFAR, ESQ.
`13 140 Scott Drive
`14 Menlo Park, California 94025
`15 650.463.2686
`16 Yasamin.Parsafar@lw.com
`17 FOR PATENT OWNER:
`18 GREENBERG TRAURIG
`19 BY: DOUGLAS WEIDER, ESQ.
`20 STEPHEN M. ULLMER, ESQ.
`21 500 Campus Road
`22 Florham Park, New Jersey 07932
`23 973.360.7916
`24 Weider@gtlaw.com
`25
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`1 Q Sure.
`2 I believe my question was: Does SIP have a
`3 mode of communication referred to as session-based?
`4 A Yes.
`5 Q And in answer to my question, you reviewed the
`6 RFC 2543. Is there a particular part of that that
`7 you're referring to to answer the question?
`8 A I glanced briefly at the RFC. I didn't review
`9 it. It is 136 pages. I looked at page 10 where
`10 terminology is described for a session, and they
`11 describe it as being from the STP specification. I'm
`12 not going to read the rest of it into the record.
`13 Q Okay.
`14 Do you have an understanding of what a
`15 "session" means in the context of SIP?
`16 A I don't understand the question.
`17 Q Okay.
`18 Let's go, if you would, to the first page of
`19 the document.
`20 A I have it.
`21 Q Okay.
`22 You see in the abstract, there's a sentence
`23 that reads:
`24 "The Session Initiation
`25 Protocol (SIP) is an application
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`1 DAVID KLAUSNER,
`2 after having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
`3 ---o0o---
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`4 5
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` EXAMINATION
`6 BY MR. WEIDER:
`7 Q Good morning, Mr. Klausner.
`8 A Good morning.
`9 Q We're here today in the --
`10 First of all, I represent TriPlay in this
`11 matter, Douglas Weider. With me is my colleague, Steve
`12 Ullmer. We are here today to take your deposition in
`13 the TriPlay IPR matter involving the '677 patent and the
`14 declaration you provided in this matter.
`15 A few just brief ground rules. I know you've
`16 done this before, but just a few things just to be
`17 clear; it's important that you and I don't talk over
`18 each other, so I'll try my best to wait until you've
`19 finished answering before I ask the question. By the
`20 same token, if you wait until I finish asking before you
`21 answer.
`22 Is that okay with you?
`23 A Yes.
`24 Q If, for some reason, you don't understand my
`25 question, please ask me to rephrase it. If you answer,
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`Page 9
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`1 I'll assume you understood the question.
`2 Is that okay with you?
`3 A Yes.
`4 Q Any reason you can't give your best testimony
`5 here today?
`6 A No.
`7 Q Do you remember, I think the last time we
`8 deposed you related to TriPlay was in connection with
`9 the '475 matter, and I think we talked a little bit
`10 about the SIP protocol.
`11 What does "SIP" stand for?
`12 A Session Initiation Protocol.
`13 Q And what --
`14 Can you explain what a "session" means in the
`15 context of SIP?
`16 A I don't understand the question.
`17 Q Okay.
`18 Does SIP have a method of communication that's
`19 referred to as session-based?
`20 A May I see the RFC 2543?
`21 Q Sure.
`22 I'm showing you the RFC 2543, which was marked
`23 as Patent Owner's Exhibit 2103.
`24 A Thanks. I have it.
`25 Can you repeat the question.
`
`1 layer control (signaling) protocol
`2 for creating, modifying and
`3 terminating sessions with one or
`4 more participants."
`5 Do you see that sentence?
`6 A Yes.
`7 Q Do you have an understanding of what
`8 "sessions" refers to in that sentence?
`9 A Yes.
`10 Q What's your understanding?
`11 A Sessions include Internet multimedia
`12 conferences, Internet telephone calls and multimedia
`13 distributions.
`14 Q So you've answered the question based on what
`15 a session includes, but do you have an understanding of
`16 what a session is in the context of SIP?
`17 MR. LIANG: Objection; asked and answered.
`18 THE WITNESS: I don't understand that
`19 question.
`20 BY MR. WEIDER:
`21 Q Do you have an understanding of how one
`22 establishes a session within the context of SIP?
`23 A Yes.
`24 Q What's your understanding of how one
`25 establishes a session?
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`1 A That members communicate to the server, the
`2 SIP server, and they indicate requests or they indicate
`3 their properties, so to speak, and there's a registrar
`4 that looks up the properties that are provided and
`5 determines whether the communications can be established
`6 and on what criteria and bases.
`7 Q And would that negotiation generally include
`8 the participants identifying their capabilities?
`9 A It could, to some extent. The question's
`10 vague, but I've answered it the best I can.
`11 Q I'm going to show you a copy of the Coulombe
`12 reference, which was WhatsApp Exhibit Number 1103.
`13 And I guess just to make clear on the record
`14 here, there were two -- do you have an understanding
`15 that there were two petitions filed in connection with
`16 this matter? One that dealt with some of the claims of
`17 the '677 patent and a separate petition that dealt with
`18 other claims of the '677 patent?
`19 A I think so.
`20 Q Okay.
`21 And then just for the record, there were --
`22 I'm showing you one of the versions of, I think,
`23 Coulombe was actually marked two different exhibit
`24 numbers, depending on which petition it was filed under,
`25 but for purposes of this deposition, I marked the one
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`Page 12
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`1 present SIP-related specifications?
`2 A I don't think your question is an accurate
`3 representation.
`4 Q Well, you said that I was short by --
`5 Well, in what respect do you believe my
`6 question isn't an accurate representation?
`7 A Paragraph 64 says: "The following elements
`8 are novel." It does not say The following are the only
`9 elements, nor The following are the only novel elements.
`10 Q Okay. All right. Let me rephrase.
`11 So your understanding is what's listed at
`12 paragraph 65 through 70 are elements that Coulombe
`13 contends are novel as compared to SIP?
`14 A Correct.
`15 Q So let's go through each one of these.
`16 So 65 says:
`17 "Capabilities negotiation for
`18 session-oriented and
`19 non-session-oriented applications
`20 provided during the registration
`21 process."
`22 A Yes.
`23 Q What do you understand is being set out in 65
`24 that's novel compared to what existed in SIP at the time
`25 of this invention?
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`1 that's Exhibit 1103.
`2 If you would, Mr. Klausner, turn to
`3 paragraph 64 of the Coulombe reference.
`4 A I have it.
`5 Q And so paragraph 64 says:
`6 "The following elements are
`7 novel compared to the present
`8 SIP-related specifications."
`9 And then it lists a variety of things in
`10 paragraph 65 through 68.
`11 Is it your understanding that what's being set
`12 out here is what Coulombe contends is novel about his
`13 invention over capabilities that already existed within
`14 SIP?
`15 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`16 THE WITNESS: Not only that. I believe your
`17 characterization of 65 through 68 is short by two
`18 paragraphs.
`19 BY MR. WEIDER:
`20 Q Okay.
`21 A I believe the end of Coulombe's list is
`22 paragraph 70.
`23 Q Okay.
`24 So paragraph 65 through 70 lists the elements
`25 that Coulombe is contending are novel compared to
`
`1 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`2 THE WITNESS: The document speaks for itself.
`3 It's what it says in item 1, which is a very short
`4 sentence.
`5 BY MR. WEIDER:
`6 Q Well, it says:
`7 "Capabilities negotiation for
`8 session-oriented and
`9 non-session-oriented
`10 applications..."
`11 So it -- withdrawn.
`12 At the time of the Coulombe invention, did SIP
`13 have a process for capability negotiation in
`14 session-oriented communications?
`15 A I believe it did.
`16 Q So what's novel here is that Coulombe is
`17 providing the additional capability of doing capability
`18 negotiation when a communication was
`19 non-session-oriented?
`20 A I think that's what it says, or at least to a
`21 certain extent.
`22 Q And if we turn to paragraph 67, you agree that
`23 the first sentence:
`24 "In SIP, capability
`25 negotiation occurs between two
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`1 clients during session
`2 establishment (using SDP Session
`3 Description Protocol)."
`4 That first sentence is describing the existing
`5 capability in SIP as the time of the Coulombe invention?
`6 A I think that's true. For example, if we look
`7 at page 10, as part of the terminology section of the
`8 RFC 2543, Exhibit 2103, the terminology for "session"
`9 states that "SDP" -- which is the Session Description
`10 Protocol -- "is used."
`11 Q Now, I think for this particular example, it
`12 doesn't matter because it's both page 10 of the actual
`13 document, the RFC itself, and it's also page 10 in terms
`14 of the stamping numbers, but just so you and I are on
`15 the same page, which page numbers are you referencing?
`16 A Yes, we are literally on the same page.
`17 Q Right.
`18 In this example, but I'm concerned in the
`19 future they may not line up. So do you want to refer to
`20 page numbers by the bottom page number or the page
`21 number in the document? I'm okay with either one as
`22 long as we're consistent.
`23 A I'll refer to the Bates stamp number.
`24 Q Okay. Thank you.
`25 And then the second sentence:
`
`1 BY MR. WEIDER:
`2 Q It was. Let me see if I can break it down.
`3 A Thank you.
`4 Q Is it your understanding that what's being
`5 described here in Coulombe includes both the existing
`6 session-based capability negotiations that existed in
`7 SIP as well as the new features that Coulombe was
`8 describing as to how to handle it for non-session-based
`9 communications?
`10 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`11 THE WITNESS: 68 does speak for itself. It's
`12 a very short sentence. Your question was longer than
`13 68.
`14 BY MR. WEIDER:
`15 Q Well, let me try it this way --
`16 A Okay.
`17 Q -- can you give me your understanding of what
`18 68 says beyond -- I guess, withdrawn.
`19 I'm just trying to confirm -- I think the
`20 sentence is fairly clear. I'm not arguing on that. I
`21 just want to make sure there's not any confusion or
`22 disagreement.
`23 The invention being described here covers
`24 both -- covers a system in which users would have the
`25 ability to do capability negotiation, both using
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`1 "Without a session, which is
`2 the case for instance with SIP
`3 instant messaging, there is no
`4 means of knowing the capabilities
`5 or user preferences of the
`6 destination terminal."
`7 Accurate to say that that's at least one of
`8 the problems that Coulombe is seeking to solve the
`9 problem; that without a session, SIP didn't have the
`10 ability to do a capability negotiation?
`11 A I think that's true.
`12 Q And then the paragraph 68 says:
`13 "This invention provides a
`14 method for capability negotiation
`15 regardless if the application is
`16 session-based or not."
`17 And is it --
`18 So is it your understanding that the system
`19 being described in Coulombe includes both the existing
`20 session-based method for capability negotiation as well
`21 as the additional features described in Coulombe to do
`22 capability negotiation when the communications were not
`23 session-based?
`24 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`25 THE WITNESS: It's a long sentence.
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`Page 17
`1 traditional session-based techniques as well as the new
`2 techniques being added in Coulombe for cases in which
`3 the communications were not session-based?
`4 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`5 THE WITNESS: Perhaps I can make it easier
`6 because you're describing techniques of Coulombe and
`7 you're describing things that are somehow -- the
`8 implication is that they're distinct and separate.
`9 Coulombe makes it possible for non-session negotiations
`10 to take place with respect to the capabilities.
`11 BY MR. WEIDER:
`12 Q Okay.
`13 But is it fair to say that the system being
`14 described also encompasses the existing capabilities of
`15 doing session-based negotiation?
`16 MR. LIANG: Objection; foundation.
`17 THE WITNESS: There are a number of inventions
`18 in Coulombe; each of them is a separate claim. When you
`19 say "the system," you haven't identified which one.
`20 Can you repeat your question.
`21 BY MR. WEIDER:
`22 Q Sure.
`23 Do the -- let me try this a little bit
`24 different way.
`25 If you look at paragraph 56 of Coulombe --
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`1 A I have it.
`2 Q -- it says:
`3 "The SIP proxy/registrar 12:
`4 [says] this element performs the
`5 operations required by a SIP proxy
`6 and registrar specified in
`7 RFC 2543."
`8 Do you see that?
`9 A Yes.
`10 Q So an RFC 2543 refers to the same RFC document
`11 we just reviewed?
`12 A And that's Exhibit 2103.
`13 Q And the SIP proxy/registrar 12 that's being
`14 described in Coulombe includes the session-based
`15 capabilities of SIP that existed at the time of the
`16 Coulombe application?
`17 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`18 THE WITNESS: It includes the session
`19 capabilities within the Exhibit 2103.
`20 BY MR. WEIDER:
`21 Q And if you would, turn back to the RFC Patent
`22 Owner Exhibit 2003 on the cover page.
`23 A 2103, correct?
`24 Q Correct.
`25 A Okay, I have it.
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`1 BY MR. WEIDER:
`2 Q What do you mean by "sessions that are
`3 streaming but not discrete"?
`4 A Generally, multimedia conferences, Internet
`5 phone calls and multimedia distributions are streaming
`6 data, and they're live. They're at least
`7 plesiosynchronous. P-L-E-S-I-O synchronous.
`8 Q And that word means what?
`9 A Near-realtime.
`10 Q And if you would turn to -- I'm going to turn
`11 to the same version you have just to make sure we don't
`12 have any page number corrections.
`13 So if you turn to page 0121, do you see
`14 there's a Section B.1 that says: "Configuring Media
`15 Streams"?
`16 A I have it.
`17 Q And the -- the -- the SIP proxy/registrar 12
`18 server in Coulombe would have the capability of
`19 configuring media streams as described in page 0121 of
`20 the RFC?
`21 A Where are you referring to in Coulombe?
`22 Q Well, I'm just talking about --
`23 We sort of before talked about paragraph 56 in
`24 which Coulombe says that:
`25 "The SIP proxy/registrar 12:
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`1 Q Well, I'm sorry.
`2 A I've been referring to 2103.
`3 Q It's fine. I just want to clear up the record
`4 because I think the problem is the one in my book is the
`5 one that was filed in one of the IPRs, and the one we
`6 made copies of is a different one. So just to make sure
`7 we clear up the record, I believe a few times I
`8 referenced Exhibit 2003, which is the RFC that was filed
`9 in the earlier, the 717 petition, where the 2103 was
`10 filed in the 718 petition, so I changed mine so we can
`11 talk about the same exhibit number.
`12 So, again, if you turn now to Exhibit 2103,
`13 the cover page.
`14 A I have it.
`15 Q Okay.
`16 And I'm going to refer to a portion of the
`17 abstract here.
`18 Do you agree that the SIP proxy/registrar 12
`19 that's described in Coulombe supports sessions that
`20 include Internet multimedia conferences, Internet
`21 telephone calls and multimedia distribution?
`22 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`23 THE WITNESS: Yes, within the sessions that
`24 are, for example, streaming and not discrete.
`25
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`1 ... performs the operations
`2 required by a SIP proxy and
`3 registrar specified in RFC 2543."
`4 And I'm just trying to walk through and
`5 confirm with you that based on that and the RFC, that
`6 these various capabilities that are described in the RFC
`7 would be part of the SIP proxy/registrar 12's
`8 capabilities.
`9 Repeat the question again?
`10 A No, I've heard your question. I just don't
`11 recall anywhere in Coulombe that it exclusively says
`12 "configuring media streams as," et cetera, the caller
`13 and callee as is stated on page -121 of Exhibit 2103.
`14 Q Well, when Coulombe says that the -- that
`15 "this element, SIP proxy/registrar 12, performs the
`16 operations required by a SIP proxy and registrar
`17 specified in RFC 2543," wouldn't a person of ordinary
`18 skill in the art understand that that would include all
`19 the functions set out in RFC 2543?
`20 A I think that's a fair reading.
`21 Q And part of the functions described in 2543
`22 include the configuring media streams described at B1 of
`23 the RFC?
`24 A Yes, at least those.
`25 Q And if you turn to the next page of the RFC,
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`1 0122, do you agree that what's described in the RFC with
`2 respect to media streams includes video streams?
`3 A Yes, generally. In this case, I see it using
`4 H.261.
`5 Q Which is a type of encoding of video?
`6 A Yes, as well as MPEG, which is an encoding.
`7 Q I'm now showing you what's marked as Patent
`8 Owner's Exhibit 2104, which is the SIP Extensions for
`9 Instant Messaging.
`10 A Thank you.
`11 Q And I want to refer you to page 5 of the SIP
`12 Extensions for Instant Messaging.
`13 Actually, before I get there, do you have an
`14 understanding of -- withdrawn.
`15 I'll carry on where I was first headed and
`16 look at page 5, and if you go down a bit, just a little
`17 bit, you see where it says:
`18 "Message requests do not
`19 create any implied session. They
`20 do not in themselves establish a
`21 call, leg or any concept of call
`22 state. SIP proxies may not record
`23 route message requests."
`24 A Yes.
`25 Q So in the case of instant messaging, there
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`1 where codecs or the bandwidths
`2 between users don't match."
`3 Do you see that?
`4 A Yes.
`5 Q Are multimedia sessions involving video calls
`6 the delivery of video?
`7 A Delivery of streaming video, the
`8 plesiosynchronous mode.
`9 Q What do -- do you know what "codecs" is
`10 referred to?
`11 A Coding/decoding. It's a term of art.
`12 Q And where it says -- refers to, you know,
`13 where codecs or bandwidths between users don't match,
`14 what does it mean where it says -- the reference to
`15 "codecs don't match," what would that refer to?
`16 A That the encoding of the streaming data from
`17 the sender is different than what the recipient can
`18 handle or manage.
`19 Q The next sentence says:
`20 "In that case, the proxy can
`21 use the information in SDP to 'fill
`22 the gap' between two terminals."
`23 Do you see that sentence?
`24 A Yes.
`25 Q Now, SDP, that refers to a Session Description
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`1 isn't, at least as of the time of the Coulombe
`2 invention, any concept of session for in the case of
`3 instant messages?
`4 MR. LIANG: Objection; form, foundation, and
`5 broad.
`6 THE WITNESS: An instant message drops in, so
`7 to speak, unannounced, unexpected and not in a session.
`8 BY MR. WEIDER:
`9 Q Okay. Let's turn back to Coulombe.
`10 A I have it.
`11 Q If you turn to paragraph 69 --
`12 A I have it.
`13 Q -- this part of, I guess, the first sentence
`14 says:
`15 "It is said in SIP that
`16 proxies may transcode content."
`17 Do you see that?
`18 A Yes.
`19 Q And this is describing an existing capability
`20 of SIP at the time of the Coulombe application?
`21 A I believe that's Coulombe's intention, yes.
`22 Q And then he goes on to say:
`23 "However, the scope of this
`24 claim was mainly for multimedia
`25 sessions (audio or video calls)
`
`1 Protocol?
`2 A Yes.
`3 Q Do you have an understanding of what an SDP
`4 is?
`5 A It is a protocol. There's probably an RFC for
`6 it.
`7 Q The statement that the proxy can use the SDP
`8 to fill the gap between the terminal, does that refer to
`9 the fact that the capabilities of the terminal would be
`10 defined in the SDP file that the proxy has access to?
`11 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`12 THE WITNESS: I think in your question "fill
`13 the gap" is a key phrase. It means to eliminate the
`14 mismatch.
`15 BY MR. WEIDER:
`16 Q So in the example you gave before of video
`17 being delivered -- actually, I don't think you -- let me
`18 rephrase that.
`19 In the example you gave before of media being
`20 delivered which was encoded in one format and the
`21 recipient had a different capability, the "fill in the
`22 gap," the proxy could transcode it in order to deliver
`23 it in the form that the recipient was capable of
`24 decoding?
`25 A I think your hypothetical is reasonable.
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`1 MR. LIANG: Hey, Doug --
`2 MR. WEIDER: Yeah.
`3 MR. LIANG: -- whenever you get to a good
`4 spot, can we take just a quick five-minute bathroom
`5 break?
`6 MR. WEIDER: Yeah, we can do that now.
`7 (Recess taken at 9:46 a.m.
`8 resumed at 9:52 a.m.)
`9 BY MR. WEIDER:
`10 Q Just in finishing off paragraph 69 of Coulombe
`11 that we were discussing, after the "fill the gap"
`12 sentence that we just discussed, it goes on to say:
`13 "There is no mention that such
`14 adaptation could take place for
`15 messaging applications and no
`16 mention that it should be based on
`17 recipient's terminal
`18 characteristics."
`19 And then he goes on to describe -- mention the
`20 simple [sic] protocol that we just looked at, and then
`21 the sentence after that, it says -- it says, referring
`22 to the simple [sic] protocol that:
`23 "If a recipient doesn't
`24 support a certain format, it should
`25 return an error message."
`
`1 Q And what's your basis for your continued
`2 position that Coulombe doesn't disclose the delivery of
`3 a message including a video?
`4 A I don't see it in Coulombe.
`5 Q The various examples that describe the
`6 delivery of video, that's not a message that includes a
`7 video?
`8 A No. Those are plesiosynchronous streams. May
`9 I see my report? My declaration?
`10 Q Sure.
`11 A This would be 717, as you call it. Is that
`12 right?
`13 Q I'm going to hand you both of your
`14 declarations since we're going to --
`15 MR. WEIDER: I'm actually going to -- assuming
`16 Counsel doesn't object, I'm going to write "717," just
`17 on the cover here for the one that's the 717, and I'm
`18 going to handwrite "718" on the other one just so we're
`19 not confused.
`20 MR. LIANG: Okay.
`21 MR. WEIDER: Actually, it doesn't matter. I
`22 guess we're not -- these aren't formally being -- make
`23 sure I don't write the wrong numbers.
`24 BY MR. WEIDER:
`25 Q So I've now handed you, Mr. Klausner, the two
`
`Page 27
`
`1 Do you see that?
`2 A Yes. I think you mentioned "simple" in your
`3 description of SIP. It's actually Session Initiation
`4 Protocol.
`5 Q Okay.
`6 Is that to be understood to be saying that in
`7 the context of instant messaging, that SIP didn't have a
`8 way to address capability differences and therefore,
`9 basically said to return an error message if the
`10 capabilities didn't line up?
`11 MR. LIANG: Objection; form.
`12 THE WITNESS: By "line up," do you mean if the
`13 recipient was unable to process the message?
`14 BY MR. WEIDER:
`15 Q Yes.
`16 A Specifically, as it says, "if a recipient
`17 doesn't support a certain format."
`18 Is that your question?
`19 Q Yes.
`20 A Yes. Among other things; it's not the end of
`21 the process, but yes.
`22 Q As you sit here today, do you still believe
`23 that Coulombe doesn't disclose the delivery of a message
`24 that includes a video?
`25 A Yes.
`
`Page 29
`1 different declarations you've filed. One is WhatsApp
`2 Exhibit Number 1002, which is the declaration filed in
`3 the 717 IPR, and I've also handed you WhatsApp Exhibit
`4 Number 1102, which was your declaration that was filed
`5 in the 718 IPR.
`6 So I think where we left off was you indicated
`7 you wanted to look at your declaration in the context of
`8 the question of -- I don't remember exactly what my last
`9 question was, but I believe I was asking you why was it
`10 your position that Coulombe didn't disclose delivering a
`11 message that includes a video, and you indicated that
`12 you wanted to look at your declaration.
`13 MR. LIANG: Objection; mischaracterizes
`14 testimony.
`15 THE WITNESS: Is there a message -- is there a
`16 question pending?
`17 BY MR. WEIDER:
`18 Q Well, I'm trying to understand --
`19 You appear to be drawing a distinction because
`20 the video is in near-realtime, that it doesn't qualify
`21 as a message that includes a video. And I'm trying to
`22 understand why it is that you believe that the
`23 near-realtime element of the delivery that you say is
`24 what SIP is describing makes it something other than a
`25 message that includes a video.
`
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`Page 30
`1 MR. LIANG: Objection; form, mischaracterizes
`2 testimony.
`3 THE WITNESS: As SIP makes clear, a streaming
`4 video is not the same as a video attached to a message,
`5 for example.
`6 BY MR. WEIDER:
`7 Q Your understanding of the claims in the '677
`8 is that they require the video to be attached to the
`9 message?
`10 A Which claims are you referring to?
`11 Q Claim 6 of the '677 patent, which is the one
`12 at issue in the 718, and Claim 1 of the patent, which is
`13 the claim at issue in the 717 petition.
`14 A May I have the '677 patent?
`15 Q Yes, you may. I'm showing you what was marked
`16 as WhatsApp 1101, which was U.S. patent 8,874,677, which
`17 I've been referring to as the '677 patent.
`18 A I don't see where Claim 1 talks about
`19 streaming video or plesiosynchronous video. Claim 1
`20 states that an initial message that includes a video,
`21 and I'm generalizing.
`22 Q Is it your position that the -- just so we're
`23 clear, because I have an easier time saying the word
`24 "near-realtime" than "plesiosynchronous." When I ask a
`25 question that says "near-realtime," do you understand me
`
`Page 32
`
`1 A I'm sorry. I think I over-spoke someone.
`2 I'll just wait a moment.
`3 Q In what respect do you not understand the
`4 hypothetical about whether the delivery of a video is a
`5 delivery of a message?
`6 A So your hypothetical now is, is the delivery
`7 of a video the delivery of a message?
`8 Q Yes, that's my question.
`9 A Certainly, if I e-mail you a Gmail and I
`10 attach a video, then I've delivered a video in a message
`11 to you.
`12 Q So -- but in the context of SIP, if I have
`13 negotiated with my recipient on the capabilities and
`14 then I stream that video to the recipient, are you -- is
`15 the video that's being streamed, in your view, that's
`16 not a message?
`17 A No. It's a streaming video. It's a
`18 multimedia communication, as SIP describes, inside a
`19 session.
`20 Q The communications that take place as part of
`21 the capability negotiation prior to the delivery of the
`22 streaming media in SIP, those constitute messages?
`23 MR. LIANG: Objection; form, calls for a legal
`24 conclusion.
`25 THE WITNESS: I think that you're referring to
`
`Page 31
`
`1 to be referring to your characterization of
`2 "plesiosynchronous"?
`3 A Yes.
`4 Q Thank you.
`5 Is it your position that a -- the delivery of
`6 a near-realtime video is not a message?
`7 MR. LIANG: Objection; calls for a legal
`8 conclusion.
`9 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the
`10 hypothetical.
`11 BY MR. WEIDER:
`12 Q Well, I'm having trouble with -- or trying to
`13 get at or understand your answer of why a near time --
`14 near-realtime video isn't a message includes a video.
`15 And if -- if a near-realtime video is a message, why
`16 wouldn't it -- withdrawn.
`17 So do you have an opinion, one way or the
`18 other, as to whether or not a delivery of a near time --
`19 near-realtime video is the delivery of a message?
`20 MR. LIANG: Objection --
`21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand --
`22 MR. LIANG: -- calls for a legal conclusion.
`23 BY MR. WEIDER:
`24 Q What aspect of the hypothetical don't you
`25 understand?
`
`Page 33
`1 Figure 1. Are you referring to Figure 1 of Coulombe
`2 with your question?
`3 BY MR. WEIDER:
`4 Q I wasn't in particular, but if you think
`5 Figure 1 is helpful to the discussion...
`6 A In that case, I think the hypothetical is
`7 vague.
`8 Q Is it your position that streaming vide