`
`________________________________________________________
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`________________________________________________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________________________________________________
`SANOFI-AVENTIS U.S. LLC AND
`REGENERON PHARMACEUTICALS, INC,
`Petitioners
`v.
`GENENTECH, INC. AND CITY OF HOPE
`Patent Owners
`U.S. Patent No. 6,331,415
`Appl. No. 07/205,419, filed June 10, 1988
`Issued: Dec. 18, 2001
`Title: Methods of Producing Immunoglobulins, Vectors and
`Transformed Host Cells for Use Therein
`________________________________________________________
`IPR Trial No. IPR2015-01624
`________________________________________________________
`
`VIDEO DEPOSITION of
`REINER GENTZ, Ph.D.
`June 10, 2016
`Miami, Florida
`9:13 a.m.
`
`Reported By:
`Dawn A. Hillier, RMR, CRR, CLR
`Job No: 44667
`
`Mylan/Merck v. Genentech
`IPR2016-00710
`Genentech Exhibit 2140
`
`Mylan v. Genentech
`IPR2016-00710
`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 1
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`2
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFF
` MAYER BROWN, LLP
` 1221 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, New York 10020
` 212.506.2500
` BY: RICHARD McCORMICK, ESQ.
` rmccormick@mayerbrown.com
` JONATHAN H. KIM, ESQ.
` jkim@mayerbrown.com
`
`ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT
`
` DURIE TANGRI, LLP
` 217 Leidesdorff St.
` San Francisco, California 94111
` BY: ADAM R. BRAUSA, ESQ.
` abrausa@durietangri.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Larry Coury, Regereron Pharmaceuticals
` Nora Passamaneck, WilmerHale
` Jeff Menton, Videographer
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` INDEX
` PAGE
`WITNESS - REINER GENTZ, Ph.D. 6
`DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCORMICK 6
`CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BRAUSA 191
`REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCORMICK 194
`CERTIFICATE OF OATH 198
`REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 199
` EXHIBITS
`Exhibit 1 Exhibit 2021 in IPR Proceeding, 8
` "Declaration of Reiner Gentz, Ph.D."
`Exhibit 2 Document, "Expert of Reiner 8
` Gentz, Ph.D."
`Premarked Exhibit 2060 39
`Exhibit 3 Stueber Article 79
`Premarked Exhibit 1002 87
`Exhibit 4 Diagram 137
`Exhibit 5 Diagram 152
`Exhibit 6 Diagram 155
`Exhibit 7 Diagram 161
`Exhibit 8 Diagram 164
`
` REPORTER'S KEY TO PUNCTUATION:
` -- At end of question or answer references
` interruption.
` ... References a trail-off by the speaker.
` No testimony omitted.
` "Uh-huh" References an affirmative sound.
` "Huh-uh" References a negative sound.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 3
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the videotaped
` deposition of Reiner Gentz, Ph.D. Please note the
` microphones are very sensitive. Be aware that they
` can pick up whispering and conversations not
` intended for the record. Additionally, please turn
` off your cell phones or place them away from the
` microphones.
` This video deposition is being taken by
` attorney Richard J. McCormick from the law firm of
` Mayer Brown, LLP, representing the plaintiff in the
` matter of Sanofi-Aventis U.S., LLC, and Regeneron,
` Pharmaceuticals, Inc., plaintiff, versus Genentech,
` Inc., and City of Hope, defendants, and Genentech,
` Inc., and City of Hope, counterclaim plaintiffs,
` versus Sanofi-Aventis U.S., LLC, and Regeneron
` Pharmaceuticals, Inc., counterclaim defendants,
` case number 2:15-cv-05685, in the United States
` District Court for the Central District of
` California, Western Division, and also case number
` IPR2015-01625 before the patent trial and appeal
` board.
` And the style of that case is Sanofi-Aventis
` U.S., LLC, Regeneron Pharmaceuticals, Inc., and
` Genzyme Corporation, petitioners, and versus
` Genentech, Inc., and the City of Hope, patent
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` owners.
` This deposition is being held at the offices
` of Carlton Fields at 100 Southeast Second Street,
` Miami, Florida. Today is June 10th, 2016. The
` time is approximately 9:13 a.m. My name is Jeff
` Menton from David Feldman Worldwide, Inc., and I am
` the certified legal video specialist. The court
` reporter is Dawn Hillier, also in association with
` David Feldman.
` Would counsel please introduce themselves,
` starting with the noticing attorney.
` MR. McCORMICK: Richard --
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And then will the court
` reporter please swear the witness in.
` MR. McCORMICK: Okay. Richard McCormick from
` Mayer Brown for Sanofi, Regeneron, and Genzyme.
` And I should just add that the IPR2015-1624 matter
` is a consolidated case.
` MR. KIM: Jonathan Kim for Mayer Brown
` representing the plaintiffs.
` MR. COURY: Larry Coury from Regeneron
` Pharmaceuticals.
` MR. BRAUSA: Adam Brausa from Durie Tangri,
` LLP, on behalf of Genentech, City of Hope, and the
` witness.
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 5
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` MS. PASSAMANECK: Nora Passamaneck from
` WilmerHale.
` REINER GENTZ, Ph.D.,
`was called as a witness, and having first been duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` THE WITNESS: Okay. My name is Reiner Gentz.
` I'm from Gentz Biotechnology Consultants in Brazil,
` Belo Horizonte.
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Gentz.
` A Good morning.
` Q As you heard, my name is Richard McCormick. I
`represent Sanofi and Regeneron and Genzyme in this
`matter.
` You now understand that you're now under oath.
`And you're required, as you said, to tell the truth, the
`whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
` A That's correct.
` Q And you will do that today?
` A I do.
` Q Okay. During the course of the day, I'm going
`to be asking you a series of questions. You're under
`oath to answer those questions truthfully. If in the
`first instance you don't understand my question, just
`
`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 6
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`let me know and I'll try and clarify it for you.
` A Sure.
` Q Okay. If you want to take breaks at any time,
`just let me know. And we'll try and take a break, you
`know, periodically; but if you need one sooner, you'll
`let me know?
` A Okay.
` Q How are your English-language skills?
` A My English is okay. I lived for over ten
`years in the U.S. But I went back to Brazil in 2002, so
`it's quite a while.
` Q Okay.
` A But most companies in Brazil, they have a lot
`of English-speaking people. And most cases, all
`conversations are in English. So I --
` Q Okay.
` A -- am still in shape.
` Q If there's some English-language nuance you
`don't understand, we could also certainly try and
`clarify that as well; okay?
` A Okay.
` Q And I would just say, I'm going to not -- I'm
`going to try not to talk over you as you're giving your
`answers. I would ask you not to talk over me as I'm
`asking questions --
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 7
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` A Sure.
` Q -- because she needs to take everything down.
`And if we talk over each other, it might be difficult
`for her to do that; okay?
` A Yes. All right.
` Q Now, Dr. Gentz, you've prepared some written
`opinions in connection with the lawsuit and the Patent
`and Trademark Office proceedings?
` A Yes.
` Q And those opinions are with respect to the
`Bujard patent?
` A The Bujard patent.
` Q And you understand you're here today to
`testify about those opinions?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So let me mark as Gentz 1, I'll just
`identify it by exhibit. It's Exhibit 2021 in the IPR
`proceeding entitled "Declaration of Reiner Gentz, Ph.D."
` (Exhibit 1 was marked.)
` MR. McCORMICK: And then as Gentz 2, in the
` District Court litigation in the Central District
` of California, Sanofi and Regeneron, re: Genentech
` and City of Hope, is a document entitled "Expert
` Report of Reiner Gentz, Ph.D."
` (Exhibit 2 was marked.)
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q And Dr. Gentz, can you confirm that the
`documents that have been put in front of you, Gentz
`Exhibit 1 and Gentz Exhibit 2, are copies of the
`declaration and expert report that you prepared and
`submitted?
` A Okay. Yes.
` Q They are?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And do you understand that the document
`that I think is to your left, Exhibit 1, that is a
`document that was submitted to the U.S. Patent and
`Trademark Office --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- in connection -- let me finish. Sorry.
`Because she's going to have hard time taking this down.
` -- that was submitted to the U.S. Patent and
`Trademark Office in connection with what we're calling
`the Cabilly II patent?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And you understand that the document to
`your right is an expert report submitted to the Federal
`District Court in California in Los Angeles?
` A Um-hum.
` Q And that's with respect -- that litigation is
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 9
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`with respect to the Cabilly III patent?
` A Yes. I know.
` Q Okay. And is it fair to say that in both the
`declaration and the report, your opinions are almost
`identical?
` A Yes.
` Q There's some formalities that are different up
`front?
` A In front, some information, yeah.
` Q Okay. I think generally today I'm going to
`refer to Gentz Exhibit 1, if that's okay.
` A Okay.
` Q If you believe at some point there might be
`something different in Gentz 2, will you let me know?
`But I believe them to be identical, at least in
`everything we'll talk about today.
` A Yes.
` Q Now, before signing each of these exhibits --
`and your signature appears somewhere near the end --
`you've had a chance to review them; right?
` A Okay. Yeah.
` Q No. No. No. Before you signed them --
` A Of course. Of course. It's my report.
` Q You reviewed them?
` A Yes. Of course.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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`Merck Ex. 1115, Pg. 10
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` Q Since signing them, have you had another
`chance to review them?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. Do you want to make any changes to
`either of those documents?
` A No, I don't want to.
` Q Okay. Do you know that the litigation, which
`is about Cabilly III, and that's the report that is
`Gentz Exhibit 2, that is scheduled to go to trial at the
`end of September of this year?
` A Not familiar, but...
` Q You did not know that?
` A No.
` Q Okay. Do you have any intention to testify at
`trial in Los Angeles at the end of September?
` A It was not discussed. If it would be
`necessary.
` Q Okay.
` A I have the impression not, but...
` Q All right. With respect to Gentz Exhibit 1,
`which is the proceeding in the Patent and Trademark
`Office, do you understand that today, you're essentially
`giving trial testimony on that -- on that proceeding?
` A Okay. Yes.
` Q You understand that?
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` A Um-hum.
` Q Okay. And --
` A I understand.
` Q Okay. Thank you.
` And do you understand that a panel of three
`judges in the Patent and Trademark Office, they're going
`to be considering your testimony today as if you were
`testifying live in front of them?
` A Okay. Yes.
` Q They're going to read the transcript. You
`understand that?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. They might even look at the video?
` A Yeah.
` Q All right. They'll consider the substance of
`your testimony in deciding the question that's before
`them?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you understand that?
` A Yes, I understand.
` Q And they'll be judging your credibility as a
`witness?
` A Um-hum. Okay.
` Q Okay?
` A Yeah.
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
`450 Seventh Avenue - Ste 500, New York, NY 10123 1.800.642.1099
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` Q And your credibility's very important to you,
`isn't it?
` A Yeah. I think so.
` Q Okay. Dr. Gentz, have you given any prior
`expert testimony before in any kind of proceeding?
` A About ten years ago, I made a deposition for
`Human Genome Sciences.
` Q Okay. Was that in a lawsuit? A litigation?
` A Yes, it was a litigation.
` Q Do you know who the parties were other than
`Human Genome Sciences?
` A Amgen.
` Q Do you know if it was a patent litigation
`proceeding?
` A It was. The topic was a patent, yeah, brought
`by both parties.
` Q Okay. Do you know where that -- where the
`court was located?
` A It was -- the meeting, the proceeding was in
`Washington, DC.
` Q Okay. The deposition was in Washington. Do
`you know which court was -- was overseeing the lawsuit?
` A No, I don't know.
` Q You don't know. Okay.
` And you were an employee of Human Genome
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`Sciences at the time?
` A At the time, no. I left Human Genome Sciences
`in 2002. It was about several years later.
` Q Without getting into any confidential
`information, can you generally tell me what that lawsuit
`was about?
` A It was about ligand and the receptor, organs
`of the TNF receptor family, that same.
` Q Did it involve antibodies?
` A Well, Human Genome Sciences had also made
`antibodies against one of the -- actually, agonistic
`antibodies.
` Q This -- and what year was this about? I'm
`sorry.
` A Hmm?
` Q What year?
` A I would say about 2005, 2006. About ten
`years.
` Q Forgive me for not remembering. Is -- did
`this case have anything to do with Benlysta?
` A No.
` Q Did this case have anything to do with
`Abthrax?
` A No.
` Q Aside from that deposition testimony, have you
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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`given any other sworn testimony?
` A No.
` Q No trial testimony?
` A Not one time.
` Q Aside from giving expert testimony -- oh,
`strike that.
` Were you testifying as an expert in this Amgen
`Human Genome Sciences?
` A It was as a former employee.
` Q Okay. Thank you.
` Now, you worked at Roche between 1984 and
`1993?
` A That's correct.
` Q Is that the same Roche that is now the parent
`company of Genentech?
` A [Inaudible.]
` Q That's the same Roche who now owns Genentech?
` A That's correct.
` Q Do you own any stock in Roche?
` A No.
` Q No stock. Did you ever own any stock in
`Roche?
` A Many years when it was Genentech, but no. No,
`not La Roche.
` Q Can you tell me to date how much time you have
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`DAVID FELDMAN WORLDWIDE, INC.
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`spent working on this matter?
` A It's about 50 hours.
` Q Fifty hours.
` And have you billed all of that time?
` A Have you --
` Q Have you submitted an invoice for that time?
` A I have submitted a partial.
` Q Okay.
` A Have not received anything.
` Q It happens.
` So 50 hours to date as you sit here right now?
` A More or less, yeah. I have not calculated
`now. But it's not much more. It's not high. It's not
`20.
` Q And that's at your ordinary consulting rate
`of, I think it's $400 an hour?
` A That's correct.
` Q Okay.
` A I don't charge different for different
`companies.
` Q Fair enough.
` Dr. Gentz, before being retained in this
`matter, did you have any knowledge of the Cabilly
`patents?
` A I knew that Genentech and City of Hope had
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`patents in this area. But I was not very familiar with
`Cabilly, the name itself.
` Q But you were familiar with the -- you were
`familiar with the existence of the patents at least?
` A Yeah. Okay.
` Q That's a yes?
` A Yes.
` Q Yes. Okay. Do you recall the first time you
`learned of the Cabilly patents?
` A I cannot say for sure.
` Q Let me see if I can refresh your recollection
`a little bit. The first Cabilly patent issued in about
`1988, 1989. Does that help you recall when you might
`have first heard about these patents?
` A Well, roughly. It's likely a little bit
`later, '90, whatever.
` Q Okay. You don't have any specific
`recollection, then?
` A No, don't have.
` Q Before being retained in this matter, had you
`ever read the Cabilly patents?
` A Before? No.
` Q You've read them since, though, in preparation
`for submitting your expert reports?
` A Yes.
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` Q And you have -- have you -- in reaching the
`opinions in your declaration and in your expert report,
`did you form an understanding about what the Cabilly
`patent claims -- Cabilly II and III patent claims cover?
` A I think so, yes.
` Q And can you tell me what that understanding
`is? Let's start with Cabilly II.
` A I think the main claim is to make two antibody
`chain in a singular cell.
` Q Okay. That's with respect to Cabilly II.
` A I think so.
` Q Okay. And any different -- is your
`understanding of the Cabilly III claims any different
`than Cabilly II?
` A Well, I have -- I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not
`very familiar with the claims. So I've read them,
`but...
` Q Okay. So as you sit here right now, you
`don't -- you don't -- you didn't form any distinction in
`your mind about how the Cabilly II claims might differ
`from Cabilly III claims?
` A No.
` Q Did you think about the scope of the claims
`with respect to whether they require assembly of the
`co-expressed heavy and light chains inside of the cell?
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` A Well, it can be made inside. It can be made
`outside.
` Q Okay. And so by --
` A It --
` Q Sorry.
` A It can be made in vitro because of chains. I
`mean, it's inclusion bodies, so it can be assembled.
` Q So your understanding of the claims is that
`they would include in vivo assembly of the chains or
`in vitro assembly?
` A Yes.
` Q Is that yes?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, you were at Human Genome Sciences from
`'93 to 2002; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q At that time, you worked on two
`antibody-related projects, at least judging from your
`curriculum vitae. There was the project that eventually
`resulted in Benlysta?
` A Benlysta. Yeah.
` Q And the other project that was in connection
`with the Abthrax antibody?
` A Abthrax antibody. These are some projects
`that didn't go -- they were not approved, like one, what
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`I mentioned.
` Q Like the Amgen?
` A The Amgen, yes. So it was in clinic. It was,
`I think, in phase two. It was not there anymore. It
`was stopped.
` Q When you were at Human Genome Sciences, were
`you at that time, so this time frame is '93 to 2002,
`were you aware of the Cabilly II patent?
` A I'm not aware of any name at that time, no.
` Q Okay. Let me try it this way: Were you aware
`of the patent that we're calling the Cabilly II patent?
` A Yes.
` Q You were. You just didn't know it by name?
` A Right.
` Q And do you know at that time whether Human
`Genome Sciences had a license to the patents that we're
`calling the Cabilly II patent?
` A Well, at that time, I don't think they had a
`license.
` Q And at that time, had you formed any opinions
`as to whether or not they needed a license?
` A Well, this was always discussed, if we had
`freedom to operate [inaudible] an object, it was a legal
`argument. It was a task of the legal department to
`resolve this.
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` Q And I don't want to --
` THE COURT REPORTER: Can we go off the record,
` please?
` MR. McCORMICK: Yeah, sure.
` THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Want to go off the record?
` At 9:30 a.m.
` (A discussion is had off the record.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the video
` record. The time is 9:31 a.m.
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q Dr. Gentz, I'm sorry. I don't mean to inquire
`into any communications you might have had with the
`lawyers at HGS at the time.
` A Sure.
` Q What I want to ask you is: You were aware at
`that time of the patent that we refer to as the
`Cabilly II patent; that was your testimony?
` A We knew that the patent was out, protecting
`the manufacturing of antibodies.
` Q Okay. Did you personally have an opinion,
`separate and apart from any of the discussions you had
`with the lawyers, that Human Genome Sciences needed a
`license to the Cabilly -- what we're calling the
`Cabilly II patent?
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` A Well, I wasn't aware of really when these
`patents were filed. I didn't know that. So I don't
`know that. I would say no, to answer.
` Q You would say no, that you didn't have a
`personal opinion --
` A I didn't --
` Q Let me finish.
` You would say no, that you didn't have a
`personal opinion at that time, whether or not Human
`Genome Sciences needed a license to what we're calling
`the Cabilly II patent?
` A Yeah. We had not -- no opinions at the time.
`We were in the very beginning of the development, no,
`not for antibody.
` Q But you understand at that time that Human
`Genome Sciences did not have a license to the patent?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And you didn't believe that you needed
`one?
` A I didn't say that. I didn't know.
` Q Okay.
` A As I said, I had not read the patent itself.
` It was not one of the real hot topics at Human
`Genome Sciences because we had many more little projects
`in development.
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` Q Yeah. Dr. Gentz, can you tell me the
`circumstances under which you were retained in these
`matters by Genentech and City of Hope?
` A Yes. Mr. Brausa, he sent me an email asking
`me if I would be interested to hear more about this
`antibody, about the patent, because he knows from the
`publication that I had, that I had practically identical
`patent.
` MR. McCORMICK: He's going to stop you.
` MR. BRAUSA: Yeah. And I'm going to caution
` you. The initial contact is fine, but I want to
` remind you that communications specifically are
` protected by Federal Rule 26. And so not to reveal
` specific communications we've had leading up to
` the -- leading up to the report.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah. He contact me.
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q Yeah. Do you recall the time frame?
` A It was more or less mid April.
` Q Of this year?
` A Of this year.
` Q In forming the opinions in both your
`declaration and in your expert report, did any of the
`Genentech or City of Hope lawyers provide you with any
`facts or data that you relied on?
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` MR. BRAUSA: And I'll caution the witness, you
` can answer that question yes or no.
` THE WITNESS: Concerning literature, yes.
` Nothing else.
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q Okay. They provided you with literature?
` A Um-hum.
` Q Okay. Can you tell me what that literature
`is?
` A Well, it's attached, the last two pages.
` Q Oh, it's the Exhibit B, which is the listed
`materials reviewed?
` A The listed materials. That's it.
` Q Any other facts or data that they provided you
`with?
` A No.
` Q Okay. In forming the opinions in your expert
`report and declaration, were you told by the lawyers for
`Genentech and City of Hope to make any assumptions that
`you ultimately relied on in your declaration?
` A No.
` MR. BRAUSA: I -- okay.
` THE WITNESS: No.
` MR. McCORMICK: I can inquire into that.
` Rule 26, there's three areas: Compensation --
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` MR. BRAUSA: Understood.
` MR. McCORMICK: -- facts and assumptions.
` MR. BRAUSA: Understood.
` MR. McCORMICK: Thank you.
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q So, Dr. Gentz, if I can turn your attention to
`Gentz Exhibit 1, which is the IPR declaration. You're
`there.
` And we're going to -- as I said before, we're
`going to be primarily working through this document
`today.
` A Okay.
` Q If you could focus your attention on your
`paragraph eight. And what you say there is that you
`have been asked to give your views on how a scientist
`with a Ph.D. in molecular biology or a related
`discipline as of April 8, 1983, would have interpreted
`the work done by your group at the Bujard lab as
`disclosed in the Gentz publication in 1981 and in the
`Bujard patent.
` A Yes.
` Q I want to ask you something about that Ph.D.
`that you refer to here who has a degree in molecular
`biology or related discipline; okay?
` A Okay.
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` Q Now, you pictured this person in your head as
`you were going through this analysis; right?
` A Um-hum.
` Q And you assumed that they had a certain amount
`of experience and skill sets that they gained during the
`course of their education?
` A Correct.
` Q And in forming your opinions in Gentz
`Exhibit 2, your declaration, did you also assume that
`this person with a Ph.D. in molecular biology, that they
`had any additional experience after the Ph.D.?
` A Well, I don't think that I made any difference
`between a Ph.D. and a Ph.D. with several years of
`experience. I think I included it if the person that
`has experience in the topics that are here in this
`patent.
` Q All right. Let me ask it another way. This
`person, this Ph.D. in molecular biology that you
`pictured in your head --
` A Right.
` Q -- that person, on April 8th, 1983, they're
`reviewing the Bujard patent, let's say; okay?
` A Okay.
` Q As of that date, did you, in your mind,
`picture that person having any post-doctoral experience
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`as of that date?
` MR. BRAUSA: Objection, form.
`BY MR. McCORMICK:
` Q What's your answer?
` A Well, I think in addition, yeah.
` Q How much post-doctoral experience did you --
`did you imagine or picture that they had?
` A At least typically, it might be two years.
` Q Okay. You don't actually say that anywhere in
`your declaration. Is that fair? You don't mention that
`this person has post-doctoral experience?
` A I -- I would have to look at -- I don't know.
` Q You can't tell me right here, sitting here,
`whether or not you mention --
` A I though we had this in -- I thought, yeah.
` Q Yeah.
` A Because it was considered, so...
` Q Okay. But in paragraph eight, when you are
`framing the question that you were asked to give your
`views on, you're just identifying a Ph.D. in molecular
`biology?
` A Well, I identified a Ph.D. with experience in
`that sense, yeah.
` Q So throughout your entire declaration,
`whenever I see the word "Ph.D. in molecular biology in
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`April of '83," what you intended was a Ph.D. with a year
`or two of post-doctoral experience?
` A With some additional, three years' experience.
` Q Okay. Now, did you assume that this person,
`this Ph.D. w