`August 5, 2016
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` CASE IPR2015-01432
` U.S. PATENT NO. 7,139,792 B2
`
`Page 1
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`**********************************
`MICROSOFT CORPORATION, *
` Petitioner *
` *
`vs. *
`BRADIUM TECHNOLOGIES, LLC, *
` Patent Owner *
`**********************************
`
` DEPOSITION OF: WILLIAM R. MICHALSON, PhD.
` CATUOGNO COURT REPORTING SERVICES
` 255 STATE STREET
` Boston, Massachusetts 02110
` August 5, 2016 8:47 a.m.
`
` Brenda M. Ginisi
` Court Reporter
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`CATUOGNO COURT REPORTING & STENTEL TRANSCRIPTIONS
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`Electronically signed by Brenda Ginisi (401-014-954-6554)
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 2
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`APPEARANCES:
`Representing Microsoft Corporation:
` PERKINS COIE
` 11988 El Camino Real, Suite 350
` San Diego, California 92130
` BY: EVAN S. DAY, ESQ.
` (858) 720-5743 FAX: (858) 720-5799
` E-mail: eday@perkinscoie.com
`Representing Bradium Technologies, Inc.:
` KENYON & KENYON LLP
` One Broadway
` New York, New York 10004
` BY: CHRIS J. COULSON, ESQ.
` (212) 425-7200
` E-mail: ccoulson@kenyon.com
` lquan@kenyon.com
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 3
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` I N D E X
`
`WITNESS: WILLIAM R. MICHALSON, PhD.
`
`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE:
`Mr. Coulson 4
`
`EXHIBITS: PAGE:
`Exhibit 1004, Ligtenberg.......................81
`Exhibit 1005, U.S. Patent, Rutledge............73
`Exhibit 1006, U.S. Patent, Cooper..............36
`Exhibit 1007, U.S. Patent, Migdal..............54
`Exhibit 1008, Hoppe Article, Appendix N........42
`Exhibit 1015, Declaration of William Michalson
`In Support of Petitioner's Reply to Patent
`Owner's Response................................5
`Exhibit 1015, Appendix EE, DeJong..............98
`Exhibit 2002, Page Proofs.......................9
`Exhibit 2003, Bajaj, Topology Preserving Data
`Simplification with Error Bounds (Preprint)....12
`Exhibit 2004, Exhibit B........................15
`Exhibit 2005, History of GIS Chapter...........20
`Exhibit 2006, Declaration of Dr. Michalson.....32
`Exhibit 2010, Burr Patent No. 6,169549B1.......41
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 4
` WILLIAM R. MICHALSON, PhD., Deponent, having
`first been satisfactorily identified and duly
`sworn, deposes and states as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION BY MR. COULSON:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Michalson.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. My name is Chris Coulson of the firm
`of Kenyon & Kenyon, as you know, representing the
`patent owners in this -- in IPR 201501432. And
`you're here to testify regarding -- in that IPR,
`regarding the 794 patent -- with regards to the
`794 patent, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you've been deposed a number of
`times, Dr. Michalson; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So I'll just go through this
`briefly. Is there any reason you can't testify
`truthfully and accurately?
` A. No.
` Q. And would you let me know if you
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 5
`have any -- don't understand any of the questions
`I ask?
` A. Sure.
` Q. Thank you. Do you know Dr. Bajaj?
`That's B-A-J-A-J.
` A. No.
` Q. Are you familiar with the computer
`science program at the University of Texas Austin?
` A. Not specifically. I'm aware that
`they have a computer science program, yes.
` Q. At this point, I'm going to hand you
`a copy of what's been previously marked as
`Exhibit 1050, which is your declaration in
`response.
` MR. DAY: Just to clarify, I think
` he said 1050. I think this is 1015 in the
` IPR. Are we using the same exhibit
` numberings as the exhibits that have
` already been submitted?
` MR. COULSON: Thanks, I misspoke.
` Exhibit 1015. We'll try to stick with the
` previously-admitted exhibit numbers. By
` the way, I'd like to -- Counsel, there
` will -- I'd like to serve the exhibit list
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 6
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` to you later by e-mail. There's a
` requirement that I provide a list of
` exhibits for this deposition. And I
` typically agree, in the IPRs, to just send
` that later, in due course, but I can write
` it up at the end of the deposition, if you
` require it now. Can we agree that I can
` send that out to you later?
` MR. DAY: All right. I guess, at
` this point, I don't have really have a
` choice. We didn't discuss this earlier. I
` mean, at this point, that's fine.
` Obviously, we reserve any rights on
` addressing new exhibits that may be beyond
` the scope of the deposition, but we'll
` address that issue when it comes up.
` MR. COULSON: Certainly. I'm just
` referring to, merely, the list of exhibits.
` MR. DAY: Right. Okay. That's
` understood.
` MR. COULSON: Okay. And if you have
` any issue, just let me know and we'll take
` care of it.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) All right. So,
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 7
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`Dr. Michalson, this is your -- Exhibit 1015,
`that's your declaration?
` A. This is my reply to patent owner's
`response, yes.
` Q. Can you turn to paragraph 18, pages
`six to seven, please?
` A. Okay.
` Q. You're setting forth in this -- can
`you review that paragraph, Dr. Michalson, and let
`me know? I'm going to ask you about it -- I'm
`going to ask you about it.
` A. Okay.
` Q. In paragraph 18, Dr. Michalson,
`you're setting forth a opinion regarding the level
`of ordinary skill and art, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you say -- and I'm looking on
`the top of page seven here --
` A. Yep.
` Q. -- that the Posa, P-O-S-A, should
`have at least five years of experience in a
`technical field related to geographic information
`systems, GIS, or the transmission of image data
`over a computer network; do you see that?
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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` A. Yes.
` Q. I'd like to ask you to explain
`what -- what you mean by technical fields that are
`related to GIS or transmission of image data over
`a computer network and, perhaps, give some
`examples of what technical fields you mean.
` A. Sure.
` MR. DAY: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: What I mean there is
` the patent calls out certain types of image
` data, maps, geographical data,
` topographical data, things of that nature.
` So that would use a body of techniques that
` was well-known in GIS, you know, geographic
` information systems. It also brings in,
` you know, systems that, at least at the
` time, would include databases, not
` necessarily high-performance work stations,
` but some often mid to low-end work
` stations.
` You see some of the same kinds of
` technology in computer-aided design
` systems, where you have multiple
` perspective views, you have layered images,
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 9
` a lot of the same graphical techniques that
` are used in GIS types of systems. So I
` think it's important to have that sort of
` experience when interpreting the art that's
` related to the 794 patent.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Would computer
`science be a technical field related to GIS, or
`the transmission of data over a computer network?
` MR. DAY: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Computer science is a
` very broad topic and it encompasses a lot
` of things, so there certainly would likely
` be a subset of people with computer science
` degrees that would have some of the
` requisite knowledge, but not necessarily
` all.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) I'm going to hand
`you what's been marked -- what's been previously
`marked as Exhibit 2002, a page proofs by
`Dr. Bajaj, with a title on the first page,
`Visualization Paradigms, a data -- page proofs for
`a book, Data Visualization Techniques, edited by
`Dr. Bajaj. Have you seen -- did you review --
`have you reviewed this particular book, page
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 10
`proofs by Dr. Bajaj, in forming your opinions,
`Dr. Michalson?
` A. I don't recall seeing this.
` Q. I'll give you a minute. Looks like
`you're looking through it. Just let me know when
`you're --
` A. I don't believe I've seen this. I
`have not analyzed it.
` Q. You're familiar, generally, with
`page proofs in your academic work?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. And you see Exhibit 2002 lists
`Dr. Bajaj as the editor, at the bottom of page
`one, and it's page proofs for a book by -- I
`guess, the editors are Wiley & Sons, on the bottom
`of page two and forward?
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. And you see that -- top of page one,
`the -- Dr. Bajaj listed as the author of this
`chapter, listed at University of Texas Austin?
` A. I see that.
` Q. Could you please turn to page 11,
`Dr. Michalson? Actually, if you could open it so
`you can see pages 10 and 11, that would be
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 11
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`helpful.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So this is a section 1.6 entitled
`"Data Reduction," right, on the left?
` A. That's what it says, yes.
` Q. And on the right, we have a
`subsection, height field reduction. It's about the
`fifth line down underneath the purple diagram; do
`you see that?
` A. I see that.
` Q. And it begins, "A driving
`application for reduction of height field is GIS."
`Do you see that sentence?
` A. I do.
` Q. And can you turn to page 16, please?
`Page 16 of Exhibit 2002 is a set of four diagrams
`entitled "Figure 1.13," with some text describing
`the diagrams at the bottom. Can you have a look
`that and let me know when you're finished?
` A. I've read the caption of
`Figure 1.13.
` Q. Okay. And the bottom left diagram,
`the Figure 1.13 of this Exhibit 2002, Chapter 1,
`by Dr. Bajaj, states, "Pressure distribution
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 12
`around the earth globe," bottom left. Do you see
`that on the second and third line?
` A. I see that in the caption, yes.
`Looks like it's referring to the top right, not
`the bottom left.
` Q. Thank you for that correction. The
`top right of Figure 1.13, the one that appears to
`be, basically, a picture of the globe with
`continents on it, makes sense; do I have that
`right?
` A. I think you have that right now.
` Q. So I've now stated it correctly?
` A. Yeah, for the caption of
`Figure 1.13, has a parenthetical referring to the
`top right, and it says, "Pressure distribution
`around the earth globe," period.
` Q. Thank you. You can put that aside,
`Dr. Michalson. I'd like to now hand you what's
`been previously marked as Exhibit 2003.
` MR. COULSON: For the record,
` Exhibit 2003, previously marked by
` Bradium, is an article entitled, "Topology
` Preserving Data Simplification with Error
` Bounds," with the first listed author of
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 13
` Dr. Chandrajit L. Bajaj of University of
` Texas Austin.
` MR. DAY: Counsel, can you refresh
` my memory. Are these exhibits that are
` already on the record in other proceedings,
` are you introducing them now?
` MR. COULSON: I'm introducing these
` now. We're up to 2001 on Bradium side, so
` per the IPR procedures, we previously mark,
` to the extent possible, the previous
` exhibits. So this is one of the exhibits
` that is being submitted now, which I'll be
` giving you a list for it later, when we get
` to the end.
` MR. DAY: Okay. So I'm also going
` to object on scope to the questions on --
` basically, on these exhibits.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Have you looked
`at -- I saw you paging through it. Have you had a
`chance to look at Exhibit 2003, Dr. Michalson?
` A. I looked briefly through
`Exhibit 2003, yes. This is the first I've seen
`this exhibit.
` Q. Okay. That was going to be my
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 14
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`question -- one of my questions. You haven't
`reviewed, to the extent you can recall, sitting
`here today, this article by Dr. Bajaj and another
`author, Exhibit 2003, previously, right?
` A. Yeah. As was the case with
`Exhibit 2002, Exhibit 2003 appears to be a new
`exhibit that I have not had an opportunity to
`study.
` Q. Can you look at pages two and three,
`please, of Exhibit 2003?
` A. Okay.
` Q. This, midway through page two,
`begins section 2, which is entitled, "Related
`Work"; do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And one of the subheadings under
`related work is "Vertex insertion deletion"; do
`you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. At the bottom of page two, going on
`to page three, there's a sentence that begins
`point about halfway through the very bottom of the
`page; do you see -- you with me there?
` A. Yep.
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 15
` Q. So this sentence in the related work
`section reads, "Point insertion and deletion
`approaches have been explored by many researchers
`for application in geographical information
`systems,(GIS)." Continuing it says, "A common
`technique is to extract key points of data," and
`it goes on from there. Do you see that?
` A. I see that text, yes.
` Q. Okay. And this is something you
`haven't previously reviewed in forming your
`opinions; is that right?
` MR. DAY: Objection. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: This was not available
` at the time I wrote my reply report.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) You can put that
`aside, Dr. Michalson. I'm going to hand you
`what's been previously marked, Dr. Michalson, as
`Exhibit 2004. Have a look at Exhibit 2004 and let
`me know when you're done, just briefly.
` MR. DAY: I'm going to object to the
` scope regarding questions regarding this
` exhibit as well.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) I don't have too
`many questions on the exhibit, so once -- if you
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 16
`need additional review after any question, you're
`welcome to take that time. And, of course, you
`can look in as much detail as you would like right
`now, Dr. Michalson.
` A. Okay. I've looked at Exhibit B.
` Q. And to be clear, Exhibit 2004, the
`first page of it is stamped Exhibit B. And would
`you agree with me, Dr. Michalson, this is a expert
`report that you previously submitted in a Visteon
`case in the eastern district of Michigan, an
`excerpted copy of the report?
` MR. DAY: Objection. Form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: This is -- this
` Exhibit 2004 are -- is an excerpt from an
` expert report that I submitted in a
` unrelated matter.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) And the last page
`of Exhibit 2004 contains your signature and the
`date of September 28, 2012, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you look at page 26? I'm
`referring to the page numbering on the bottom,
`middle of the Exhibit 2004, and look at those last
`two paragraphs of page 26, please, beginning with
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`the word systems.
` MR. DAY: Object to form.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Just let me know
`when you've had a chance to do that.
` A. Well, it looks like -- looks like
`the last paragraph is cut off, but I've looked at
`the last two paragraphs on this, with the
`exception of the material that's missing from what
`would apparently be page 27.
` Q. You're referring to the sentence
`that begins for, at the bottom of page 26. The
`text following that on page 27 wasn't included,
`right?
` A. No. That paragraph begins by the
`mid 1980s, and it ends with the word for, and it
`looks like it would continue on to the next page,
`but I don't have that next page here.
` Q. Looking at the paragraph that begins
`systems. The paragraph states -- includes -- the
`paragraph includes a quotation, "computer-based
`GIS have been used since at least the late 1960s,"
`and the citation is to a -- let me stop there.
`You see that quotation?
` A. I do.
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 18
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` Q. We'll break it down in pieces.
`There's a quotation to a -- an excerpt from the --
`a book, Geographical Information Systems, and
`then, I guess, the subsection is history of GIS
`that's cited for that quotation; do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And this is a reference that you
`cited in the Exhibit 2004, as part of your 2012
`expert report, right?
` MR. DAY: Objection. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Yes. That's a
` reference I cited in my expert report,
` related to the matter that was then
` pending. I don't know if it's still
` pending or not, in the southern -- or the
` eastern district of Michigan for an
` unrelated patent.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) I'd like to go
`back to page 26, when you're ready.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Page 26 includes following what we
`just covered. I would like to ask you about that.
`So, Dr. Michalson, page 26 of Exhibit 2004
`includes a sentence, "By the mid-1980s, it was
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
`
`Page 19
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`known that there were many ways that GIS data
`could be stored, and that the matter in which data
`are stored impacts the time and computer resources
`required to effectively use the data."
` A. I think the word is manner, not
`matter.
` Q. Would you mind reading the sentence?
`Maybe, you'll do a better job.
` MR. DAY: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: The sentence in the
` partial paragraph at the bottom of page 26
` says, "By the mid 1980s, it was known that
` there were many ways that GIS data could be
` stored, and that the manner in which data
` are stored impacts the time and computer
` resources required to effectively use the
` data."
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) And then you cite,
`at the bottom Exhibit 2004, see, generally, a
`Peuquet reference, if I'm pronouncing that right?
` A. Acceptably well, yes. Yes, I see
`that reference.
` Q. And when you submit expert reports,
`Dr. Michalson, you strive to be accurate and
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 20
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`complete, is that right?
` MR. DAY: Object to form and scope.
` THE WITNESS: I do. Obviously, it's
` focused at a particular matter and the
` particular facts related to that matter,
` but I believe that it's accurate.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) You can put aside
`Exhibit 2004. Looks like you may already have
`done that. I'm going to hand you what's been --
`Dr. Michalson, what's been previously marked as
`Exhibit 2005.
` MR. DAY: Object to scope.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) And, actually, you
`may need, if you would like to look at
`Exhibit 2004, page 26. I may have put that aside
`too soon. You're welcome to do so, if you need.
`And I see you're already looking at the
`Exhibit 2005. Just let me know when you're
`finished and ready to continue with the
`questioning, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And just to make this easier on you,
`I -- maybe, we should -- if you can, open up 2004,
`back to page 26, just for the next question, to
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 21
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`make it straightforward as possible.
` A. Okay.
` Q. My question, Dr. Michalson, is you
`would agree that Exhibit 2005 is the reference you
`cited in -- on page 26 of 2004, the Coppock
`reference, including pages 21 to 34 of that
`reference?
` MR. DAY: Objection. Form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: It looks like
` Exhibit 2005 contains the article I'm
` referring to in Exhibit 2004.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) If you look at
`page 21 of Exhibit 2005, please. I see you're
`already open to that page.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And the first sentence of -- after
`the, I guess, chapter title, the history of GIS
`is, in fact, "Computer-based GIS have been used
`since at least the late 1960s," which I believe
`you are quoting in your Exhibit 2004 quotation
`that we covered earlier?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'd like to ask you a couple
`questions about 2005 exhibit. You could, if you'd
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
`
`Page 22
`like, put aside Exhibit 2004. We won't have any
`further questions about 2004. At least, if we do,
`we can get it back out again.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Did you review Exhibit 2005 or the
`history of GIS chapter, or the Geographical
`Information Systems book in preparing your
`opinions in this IPR matter that brings us here
`today?
` MR. DAY: Objection. Form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I, obviously,
` reviewed this in writing the expert report
` that you have excerpts of in Exhibit 2004.
` I don't believe I read through this
` Exhibit 2005. In fact, I did not review
` Exhibit 2005 in the preparation of my
` reply, relative to the 794 patent that's at
` issue in this current IPR.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) And you weren't
`provided with the Exhibit 2005 for the purposes of
`this IPR, correct?
` MR. DAY: Objection to form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: Well, you've just
` handed me Exhibit 2005, but other than
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 23
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` that, I have not used Exhibit 2005 in
` connection with my reply declaration.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) And just to be
`clear, other than myself just providing you with
`this book chapter, no one else provided you
`previously with the book chapter for the purposes
`of this IPR? That was what I was trying to ask
`you.
` MR. DAY: Object to form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I own a couple
` of copies of this two-volume set that this
` chapter is in, as part of my personal
` library, but this was not a reference that
` I used in the preparation of my -- or that
` I relied on, or that I reviewed, when
` putting together the -- my response -- my
` reply declaration for the 794 patent.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Let me try to ask
`the question more clearly. So Microsoft counsel
`didn't provide you with Exhibit 2005 for purposes
`of -- is that correct?
` MR. DAY: Objection to form.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Sorry. I'll ask
`it again. I think I messed up the question.
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 24
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`Microsoft counsel did not provide you with
`Exhibit 2005, correct?
` MR. DAY: Objection to form, scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe that
` this was one of the references that -- I
` don't recall Microsoft ever providing me a
` copy of what you have marked as
` Exhibit 2005. My familiarity with this
` reference is independent of anything
` related to the 794 patent or Microsoft.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Well, let's go to
`page 22, please, of this Exhibit 2005.
` A. Okay.
` Q. I'm going to direct you to a couple
`passages. You're welcome to read, as always, the
`whole section, but I -- just as a heads-up, I'll
`just be directing you to a couple specific
`passages. Can you look at -- I'm going to be on
`the left column of page 22 of Exhibit 2005. If
`you can look up, approximately, 19 lines from the
`bottom, you can see a reference to GIS
`conferences?
` A. I see a reference to GIS
`conferences.
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
`
`Page 25
` Q. So Exhibit 2005 is referencing to
`GIS conferences that took -- is indicating that
`GIS conferences took place from 1974 onward in
`that section; is that right?
` MR. DAY: Objection to form, scope.
` Q. (By Mr. Coulson) Would it be easier
`if I just read the sentence, or is that type of --
`I want to make this as easy as possible. I'll
`reask the question, but -- well, let me let you
`look at it and then we'll get back to the
`questions, Dr. Michalson.
` A. Okay. I've read through at least
`some of the paragraph. What's your question
`again, please?
` Q. Exhibit 2005, page 22, is referring
`to the advent of specialist GIS conferences that
`took place from 1974 onwards, correct?
` A. Well, the sentence is referring to
`specialist GIS conferences as providing one
`publishing mechanism starting from 1974.
` Q. I'd like to turn to the right column
`of page 22, please.
` A. Okay.
` Q. We're going to start, approximately,
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`Michalson, PhD., William R.
`August 5, 2016
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`Page 26
`15 lines down, with a couple of sentences that
`begins formal definitions, so let me give you a
`second to review that portion. I suggest,
`perhaps, you look at from formal definitions, and
`just read, sort of, down until the end of that
`full paragraph, but you can review it in whatever
`any manner you like, and then I'll ask my
`questions.
` A. Okay. I've looked at t