·1· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·__________________
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`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · · ·__________________
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`·5· · · · · · · · TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · BLITZSAFE TEXAS, LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner
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`11· · · · · · · · · Patent No. 8,155,342
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · IPR2016-00418
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`15· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF THOMAS G. MATHESON, Ph.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
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`17· · · · · · · · Tuesday, January 17, 2017
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·9:12 a.m.
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`25· ·Reported by:· Laurie Bangart Donovan, RPR, CRR
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`IPR2016-00418 - Ex. 2013
`Blitzsafe Texas, LLC, Patent Owner
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·__________________
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`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · · ·__________________
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`·5· · · · · · · · TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · BLITZSAFE TEXAS, LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner
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`10
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`11· · · · · · · · · Patent No. 8,155,342
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · IPR2016-00418
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`15· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF THOMAS G. MATHESON, Ph.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
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`17· · · · · · · · Tuesday, January 17, 2017
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·9:12 a.m.
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`25· ·Reported by:· Laurie Bangart Donovan, RPR, CRR
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`IPR2016-00418 - Ex. 2013
`Blitzsafe Texas, LLC, Patent Owner
`1
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Deposition of
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`·2· · · · · · · · THOMAS G. MATHESON, Ph.D.
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`·4· ·Held at the offices of:
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`·5· · · · · · ·Sughrue Mion, PLLC
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`·6· · · · · · ·2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
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`·7· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20037
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`17· · · · · · · · · Taken pursuant to notice, before
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`18· · · · Laurie Bangart Donovan, Registered
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`19· · · · Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime
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`20· · · · Reporter and Notary public in and for the
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`21· · · · District of Columbia.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
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`·3· · · · · · ·Brown Rudnick LLP
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`·4· · · · · · ·7 Times Square
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`·5· · · · · · ·New York, New York 10036
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`·6· · · · · · ·By:· Peter Lambrianakos, Esq.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · Vincent J. Rubino, III, Esq.
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`11· ·ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION:
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`12· · · · · · ·Sughrue Mion, LLP
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`13· · · · · · ·2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
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`14· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20037
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`15· · · · · · ·By:· Fadi N. Kiblawi, Esq.
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`16· · · · · · · · · William H. Mandir, Esq.
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`·1· ·(Appearances continued)
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`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF HYUNDAI MOTOR GROUP AND KIA:
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`·3· · · · · · DLA Piper LLP (US)
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`·4· · · · · · 2000 Avenue of the Stars
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`·5· · · · · · Suite 400 North Tower
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`·6· · · · · · Los Angeles, California 90067
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`·7· · · · · · By:· Patrick S. Park, Esq.
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`10· ·ON BEHALF OF HONDA MOTOR COMPANY:
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`11· · · · · · Jones Day
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`12· · · · · · 717 Texas Avenue
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`13· · · · · · Suite 3300
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`14· · · · · · Houston, Texas 77002
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`15· · · · · · By:· H. Albert Liou, Esq.
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`·1· ·(Appearances continued)
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`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF NISSAN NORTH AMERICAN, INC. AND
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`·3· ·NISSAN MOTOR COMPANY, LTD.:
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`·4· · · · · · ·Janik Vinnakota LLP
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`·5· · · · · · ·8111 LBJ Freeway
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`·6· · · · · · ·Suite 790
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`·7· · · · · · ·Dallas, Texas 75251
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`·8· · · · · · ·By:· Glenn E. Janik, Esq.
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`11· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`12· · · · · · ·Kyohei Yamashita
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`·1· · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION INDEX
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS . . . 11, 108, 111
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`·4· ·EXAMINATION BY MR. KIBLAWI . . . . . 105, 109, 123
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·9· ·EXHIBIT· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`10· ·Exhibit 1· ·Reply Declaration of
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`11· · · · · · · ·Thomas G. Matheson, Ph.D. . . . .· ·11
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`12· ·Exhibit 2· ·The Clayton provisional
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`13· · · · · · · ·application . . . . . . . . . . .· ·13
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`14· ·Exhibit 3· ·A2DP version 1.0 specification· .· ·53
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`15· ·Exhibit 4A· Toyota Exhibit 1003, comprising
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`16· · · · · · · ·pages 1 through 333 . . . . . . .· ·67
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`17· ·Exhibit 4B· Toyota Exhibit 1003, comprising
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`18· · · · · · · ·pages 334 through 667 . . . . . .· ·67
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`19· ·Exhibit 5· ·Initial Expert Declaration of
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`20· · · · · · · ·Thomas G. Matheson, Ph.D. . . . .· ·81
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`21· ·Exhibit 6· ·'667 Application· . . . . . . . .· ·95
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Good morning.
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`·3· · · · This begins media number 1 of the
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`·4· · · · audio/visual deposition of Dr. Thomas G.
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`·5· · · · Matheson, taken in the matter of Toyota Motor
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`·6· · · · Corporation, Petitioner, versus Blitzsafe
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`·7· · · · Texas, LLC, Patent Owner.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · This case is being held in the
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`·9· · · · United States Patent and Trademark Office
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`10· · · · before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board,
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`11· · · · IPR2016-00418.
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`12· · · · · · · · · This deposition is being held at
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`13· · · · law offices of Sughrue Mion, PLLC, located at
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`14· · · · 2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest,
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`15· · · · Washington, D.C., on January 17, 2017, at
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`16· · · · approximately 9:12 a.m.
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`17· · · · · · · · · My name is Solomon Francis.· Our
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`18· · · · court reporter is Laurie Donovan.· We are
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`19· · · · with Elisa Dreyer Court Reporting, a U.S.
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`20· · · · Legal Support Company, located at 950 Third
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`21· · · · Avenue, New York, New York.
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`22· · · · · · · · · For the record, will counsel please
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`23· · · · introduces themselves and the parties they
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`24· · · · represent.
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`25· · · · · · · · · MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:· My name is Peter
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`7
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`·1· · · · Lambrianakos of Brown Rudnick on behalf of
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`·2· · · · the patent owner, and with me is Vincent
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`·3· · · · Rubino, also of Brown Rudnick on behalf of
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`·4· · · · the patent owner.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· My name is Fadi
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`·6· · · · Kiblawi for the petitioner, Toyota Motor
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`·7· · · · Corporation, the Sughrue Mion firm, and with
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`·8· · · · me is Bill Mandir, also with Sughrue Mion,
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`·9· · · · and Kyohei Yamashita with Toyota Motor
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`10· · · · Corporation, and we're with the witness,
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`11· · · · Thomas Matheson.
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`12· · · · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· At this time
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`13· · · · would the court reporter please swear in the
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`14· · · · witness.
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`15· · · · · · · · · (Witness duly sworn.)
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`16· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· So before we begin
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`17· · · · with this deposition, I'd like to just make
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`18· · · · an objection on the record.
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`19· · · · · · · · · Toyota Motor Corporation currently
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`20· · · · has in the district court proceeding a motion
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`21· · · · to disqualify the Brown Rudnick firm on the
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`22· · · · basis of Mr. Rubino's participation adverse
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`23· · · · to Toyota, and we object to his involvement
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`24· · · · in any proceeding involving Toyota, and
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`25· · · · including this IPR and this deposition.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · I just want to state that objection
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`·2· · · · on the record.· Thank you.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:· We'd like to
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`·4· · · · respond to that objection.· We'd like to note
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`·5· · · · that Mr. Rubino entered his appearance in
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`·6· · · · this IPR many months ago, that no objection
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`·7· · · · was ever made to Mr. Rubino's appearance here
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`·8· · · · in this case.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · There has been no motion to
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`10· · · · disqualify or any other action taken by
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`11· · · · Toyota with respect to Mr. Rubino's
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`12· · · · involvement in this IPR, and as is well
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`13· · · · known, an IPR involves a patent-in-suit.· It
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`14· · · · does not involve any confidential information
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`15· · · · of Toyota, and therefore there would be no
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`16· · · · basis for any motion to disqualify or any
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`17· · · · objection on the record.
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`18· · · · · · · · · We therefore disagree completely
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`19· · · · with the basis for this objection.· We think
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`20· · · · it's improper.· We think it's an attempt to
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`21· · · · interfere with our deposition, and we intend
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`22· · · · to seek whatever relief is appropriate as a
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`23· · · · result.
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`24· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· And if I may just
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`25· · · · respond, for the record, we disagree.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · I'd also like to note that last
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`·2· · · · week in the district court hearing regarding
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`·3· · · · the motion to disqualify the Brown Rudnick
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`·4· · · · firm on the basis of Mr. Rubino's
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`·5· · · · participation adverse to Toyota, it was
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`·6· · · · stated at that hearing by your colleague,
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`·7· · · · Mr. Fabricant from the Brown Rudnick firm,
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`·8· · · · that Mr. Rubino was not working in any way
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`·9· · · · adverse to Toyota in these matters.
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`10· · · · · · · · · So with that said, unless you have
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`11· · · · any other comments, we can proceed.
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`12· · · · · · · · · MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:· I'd like to
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`13· · · · point out, obviously the hearing in the
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`14· · · · district court last week involved a motion to
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`15· · · · disqualify with respect to the district court
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`16· · · · action.· The issue of the IPR was not raised
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`17· · · · and, in fact, would not be part of any
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`18· · · · proceeding to disqualify in the district
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`19· · · · court.
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`20· · · · · · · · · And of course, the Sughrue firm and
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`21· · · · Toyota have been aware for many months that
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`22· · · · Mr. Rubino, that Mr. Rubino has appeared here
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`23· · · · and is involved in this IPR, and any
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`24· · · · objection being raised now to that obviously
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`25· · · · has been waived and, of course, is not well
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`·1· · · · taken, regardless.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · With that, I'll move on to the
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`·3· · · · questioning of the witness.
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`·4· · · · · · · ·THOMAS G. MATHESON, Ph.D.,
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`·5· · · · having been first duly sworn, testified
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`·6· · · · upon his oath as follows:
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`·7· · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATIENT OWNER
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`·8· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
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`·9· · · · Q· · Good morning, Dr. Matheson.
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`10· · · · A· · Good morning.
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`11· · · · Q· · You've been retained as an expert for
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`12· ·Toyota Motor Corporation in the currently pending
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`13· ·IPR, correct?
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`14· · · · A· · Correct.
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`15· · · · Q· · And in connection with that retention,
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`16· ·you submitted a reply declaration with respect to
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`17· ·this IPR, correct?
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`18· · · · A· · That's correct.
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`19· · · · Q· · I'd like to hand you a copy of your
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`20· ·reply declaration.
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`21· · · · · · ·Mark that as Exhibit 1, please.
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`22· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 1 was marked for
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`23· · · · · · · · · identification.)
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`24· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
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`25· · · · Q· · Dr. Matheson, would you please review
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`11
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`·1· ·Exhibit 1 and confirm that this is a true and
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`·2· ·correct copy of your reply declaration?
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`·3· · · · A· · Just glancing over it, it looks like it
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`·4· ·is.· I brought a copy that I printed out of mine,
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`·5· ·so I can work from either one, whatever you
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`·6· ·prefer.
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`·7· · · · Q· · Well, if you'd just work from the one I
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`·8· ·gave you, that would be great.· We've marked it as
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`·9· ·Exhibit 1.
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`10· · · · · · ·Would you just confirm that the
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`11· ·signature on page 7 of this reply declaration is
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`12· ·your signature?
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`13· · · · A· · That's my signature.
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`14· · · · Q· · And on the last page it says, "I
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`15· ·declare, under penalty of perjury, that the
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`16· ·foregoing is true and correct."
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`17· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`18· · · · A· · I do.
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`19· · · · Q· · And do you confirm that all the matter
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`20· ·that's included in this reply declaration is true
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`21· ·and correct?
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`22· · · · A· · I do.
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`23· · · · Q· · Turning to paragraph 4 of your reply
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`24· ·declaration, do you see a reference here to
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`25· ·"Clayton"?
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`·1· · · · A· · I do.
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`·2· · · · Q· · I'd like to mark as Exhibit 2, US Patent
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`·3· ·Application Publication US 2006/0181963 A1.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 2 was marked for
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`·5· · · · · · · · · identification.)
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`·6· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
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`·7· · · · Q· · Dr. Matheson, is this Exhibit 2 the
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`·8· ·document you referred to as "Clayton"?
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`·9· · · · A· · It looks like it is.
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`10· · · · Q· · In paragraph 4 of your declaration you
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`11· ·state, "Paragraph 55 of Clayton explicitly states
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`12· ·that the content transmitted by the portable
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`13· ·device may be encoded or unencoded."
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`14· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`15· · · · A· · Yes.
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`16· · · · Q· · Would you please turn to paragraph 55.
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`17· · · · A· · Yes.
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`18· · · · Q· · The first sentence of paragraph 55 says,
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`19· ·"In one embodiment, the cellular telephone 142 is
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`20· ·suitably enabled to wirelessly transmit content
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`21· ·and command control signals, encoded or unencoded,
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`22· ·by the aforementioned wireless proximity network
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`23· ·to the wireless adapter 173."
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`24· · · · · · ·Did I read that correctly?
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`25· · · · A· · I believe you did.
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`·1· · · · Q· · And it's from this sentence that you
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`·2· ·concluded that the cellular telephone 142 can
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`·3· ·transmit either encoded or unencoded content,
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`·4· ·correct?
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`·5· · · · A· · A two-part answer.· The first part is
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`·6· ·yes, I believe that's what it says.· The second
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`·7· ·part is that it's not merely from this sentence.
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`·8· ·It's from other things contained within Clayton
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`·9· ·that are consistent with this.
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`10· · · · Q· · Okay.· In paragraph 4 of your
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`11· ·declaration, you refer only to paragraph 55 of
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`12· ·Clayton; isn't that right?
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`13· · · · A· · I cite that as an example here, that's
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`14· ·correct.
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`15· · · · Q· · Are there other portions of your
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`16· ·declaration which you believe support the
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`17· ·conclusion that content may be transmitted either
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`18· ·encoded or unencoded?
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`19· · · · A· · Yes.· I believe I talk about that in
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`20· ·other places throughout the declaration.
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`21· · · · Q· · Would you just identify by paragraph
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`22· ·number where you believe that you have supported
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`23· ·the transmission of encoded or unencoded data?
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`24· · · · A· · Well, I begin the discussion in
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`25· ·paragraph 3 where I disagree with Dr. Stern's
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`·1· ·position.· I elaborate on that in paragraph 4. I
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`·2· ·continue in paragraph 5, talking about what's
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`·3· ·transmitted.· I continue observing what Dr. Stern
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`·4· ·states in paragraph 6 and disagree with it and
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`·5· ·support that in that paragraph.
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`·6· · · · · · ·So, so far, most of the paragraphs seem
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`·7· ·to be addressing that in this section.· I conclude
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`·8· ·in paragraph 7, talking about transmission,
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`·9· ·wireless transmission of I/O, too, so all the
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`10· ·paragraphs in the section support that.
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`11· · · · Q· · Okay.· So paragraphs 3 through 7 support
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`12· ·the conclusion that Clayton supports transmitting
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`13· ·content, either in encoded or unencoded form, from
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`14· ·a portable device?
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`15· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
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`16· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
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`17· · · · Q· · Is that correct?
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`18· · · · A· · Could you repeat that, please?
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`19· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, reporter reads
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`20· · · · · · · · · requested material.)
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`21· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
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`22· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· If you wish to
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`23· · · · summarize it that way, then I suppose that's
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`24· · · · correct.· As I've stated, this entire section
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`25· · · · is addressing that particular point.
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`·1· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
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`·2· · · · Q· · So looking back at paragraph 55 of
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`·3· ·Clayton, the sentence we referred to, you said, is
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`·4· ·evidence that content may be transmitted by the
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`·5· ·portable device in either encoded or unencoded
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`·6· ·form; is that fair?
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`·7· · · · A· · Yes, and I use the word "content" the
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`·8· ·same way that Clayton does, which refers to, in
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`·9· ·other places in the Clayton document, encoded or
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`10· ·unencoded audio as well.· So when I say "content,"
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`11· ·I'm not narrowing it the way I believe Dr. Stern
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`12· ·attempted to do.· Clayton expressly talks about
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`13· ·content simply being audio, and so in paragraph 55
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`14· ·when he's talking about transmitting content, that
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`15· ·content includes both encoded and unencoded audio,
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`16· ·and it talks about transmitting that in an encoded
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`17· ·or unencoded format.
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`18· · · · Q· · Okay.· Does this sentence also support
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`19· ·that command control signals may be transmitted
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`20· ·both in encoded or unencoded form?
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`21· · · · A· · Yes, I believe that's how I read it.
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`22· · · · Q· · In paragraph 5 you state, "Moreover, the
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`23· ·audio content transmitted by the portable device,
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`24· ·according to Clayton, may be audio from MP3 files,
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`25· ·for example, received from a content-providing
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`16
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`·1· ·server."
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`·2· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`·3· · · · A· · I do.
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`·4· · · · Q· · And you cite Exhibit 1002 at paragraphs
`
`·5· ·14, 18, 36, 45 and 50, correct?
`
`·6· · · · A· · I see that.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · Is it your contention that these five
`
`·8· ·paragraphs support the first sentence of paragraph
`
`·9· ·5?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes, I believe that these paragraphs
`
`11· ·talk about MP3 in the context of Clayton's
`
`12· ·document.
`
`13· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would you please turn to page --
`
`14· ·excuse me.· Would you please turn to paragraph 14
`
`15· ·of Clayton.
`
`16· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · Q· · Do you see that in approximately the
`
`18· ·sixth line of paragraph 14, it begins, "Content
`
`19· ·may include media such as audio, video and text,
`
`20· ·multimedia that includes two or more of audio,
`
`21· ·video, and text, or other types of data."
`
`22· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`23· · · · A· · I see that.
`
`24· · · · Q· · Do you agree with that?
`
`25· · · · A· · Yes.· Again, as long as we're using
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· ·"data" in the broadest sense, which I believe is
`
`·2· ·how Clayton uses it.· I have seen Dr. Stern
`
`·3· ·attempt to narrow "data" to mean expressly
`
`·4· ·compressed audio, and I don't believe Clayton is
`
`·5· ·using it that way.· I think Clayton talks about
`
`·6· ·data merely referring to digital information, and
`
`·7· ·unencoded audio is data in Clayton, so yes, I see
`
`·8· ·that.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Peter, do you have
`
`10· · · · another copy of that exhibit?· Clayton?
`
`11· · · · Thank you, sir.
`
`12· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`13· · · · Q· · In the next sentence it says, "Examples
`
`14· ·of content include, but are not limited to, media
`
`15· ·files, such as MP3 files, other types of audio
`
`16· ·files, video files, textual play, music playlists,
`
`17· ·and other types of files."
`
`18· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`19· · · · A· · I see that.
`
`20· · · · Q· · These are all examples of content,
`
`21· ·according to Clayton; is that your understanding?
`
`22· · · · A· · Those are some of the types of examples,
`
`23· ·yes.· They're all examples, but he says there's
`
`24· ·other types as well.
`
`25· · · · Q· · So is it your understanding that in
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·Clayton, audio files may be transmitted in encoded
`
`·2· ·form?
`
`·3· · · · A· · Yes, they may.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Can audio files be transmitted in
`
`·5· ·unencoded form in Clayton?
`
`·6· · · · A· · Yes, they may.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · Can video files be transmitted in
`
`·8· ·encoded form in Clayton?
`
`·9· · · · A· · Oh, I'd have to look.· Not off the top
`
`10· ·of my head I can't answer that.· I can look
`
`11· ·through and refresh my memory if you'd like.
`
`12· · · · Q· · Sure.· Why don't you take a look.
`
`13· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · (Witness peruses document.)
`
`15· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· Since Clayton
`
`16· · · · defines "content" to include video files, and
`
`17· · · · paragraph 55 says that content can be
`
`18· · · · transmitted encoded or decoded, I would take
`
`19· · · · that to mean that that applies to video as
`
`20· · · · well.
`
`21· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`22· · · · Q· · Paragraph 55 says that the content can
`
`23· ·be transmitted either encoded or unencoded,
`
`24· ·correct?
`
`25· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · You said "decoded," right?
`
`·2· · · · A· · I'm sorry.· If I did, I misspoke.
`
`·3· ·Encoded or unencoded.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Right.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·How about textual music playlists; can
`
`·6· ·they be transmitted in Clayton in encoded form?
`
`·7· · · · A· · They may.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Can they be transmitted in unencoded
`
`·9· ·form?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q· · What about MP3 files; can MP3 files be
`
`12· ·transmitted in Clayton in encoded form?
`
`13· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`14· · · · Q· · And they can be transmitted in unencoded
`
`15· ·form as well, correct?
`
`16· · · · A· · That's correct.
`
`17· · · · · · ·To be accurate, to transmit an MP3 file
`
`18· ·in unencoded form means you first have to decode
`
`19· ·it, and then you are able to transmit it in
`
`20· ·unencoded form.
`
`21· · · · Q· · So you agree then that if a cellular
`
`22· ·telephone is transmitting a playlist unencoded,
`
`23· ·that that is an example of the cellular telephone
`
`24· ·transmitting unencoded content, correct?
`
`25· · · · A· · A type of content, yes.
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · So you agree that that content would be
`
`·2· ·unencoded?
`
`·3· · · · A· · It could be.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.· Let's assume that this cellular
`
`·5· ·telephone is also transmitting an MP3 file in
`
`·6· ·encoded form at the same time.
`
`·7· · · · A· · At the same time as --
`
`·8· · · · Q· · The unencoded textual playlist.
`
`·9· · · · A· · Okay.
`
`10· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would this cellular telephone be
`
`11· ·a portable device that's capable of sending both
`
`12· ·encoded and unencoded content?
`
`13· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It may be, but again
`
`15· · · · it depends on which content you're referring
`
`16· · · · to.
`
`17· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`18· · · · Q· · Okay.· Well, the hypothetical said that
`
`19· ·we have a portable device that's a cellular
`
`20· ·telephone, in Clayton, in the context of Clayton.
`
`21· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q· · And that cellular telephone is sending
`
`23· ·an encoded MP3 file along with an unencoded
`
`24· ·textual playlist.
`
`25· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · Would you agree that that cellular
`
`·2· ·telephone is sending content both encoded and
`
`·3· ·unencoded?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I believe your
`
`·6· · · · hypothetical says that it's sending the
`
`·7· · · · textual content unencoded and the music
`
`·8· · · · content encoded, so since that's your
`
`·9· · · · hypothetical, I think that's what you said.
`
`10· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`11· · · · Q· · So do you agree that what I just said is
`
`12· ·true?
`
`13· · · · A· · I'm not sure I agree with your
`
`14· ·characterization, because your characterization is
`
`15· ·not as precise as your hypothetical.· I agree that
`
`16· ·that's your hypothetical.
`
`17· · · · Q· · Okay.· Well, let's say my hypothetical
`
`18· ·is what I said it is, and that is that the
`
`19· ·cellular telephone is sending encoded MP3 file
`
`20· ·along with unencoded textual playlist.· Would you
`
`21· ·agree that that's consistent with paragraph 55 of
`
`22· ·Clayton which says that the cellular telephone is
`
`23· ·capable of transmitting content and command
`
`24· ·control signals, encoded or unencoded?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe that your
`
`·2· · · · hypothetical is consistent with paragraph 55,
`
`·3· · · · but that is not to say that paragraph 55 is
`
`·4· · · · limited to your hypothetical at all.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`·6· · · · Q· · Okay, but putting aside whether it's
`
`·7· ·limited to the hypothetical, which I didn't say,
`
`·8· ·you would agree that paragraph 55 is consistent
`
`·9· ·with my hypothetical, correct?
`
`10· · · · A· · Well, I'm the one who said that it's not
`
`11· ·limited, and I would agree as long as that
`
`12· ·provision is attached to my answer, because the
`
`13· ·word "content" is used by Dr. Stern, as I said, to
`
`14· ·mean something different from Clayton, and so I
`
`15· ·want to make sure that when I answer your
`
`16· ·question, I'm not saying something that's confused
`
`17· ·with Dr. Stern's position.
`
`18· · · · · · ·Clayton talks about sending various
`
`19· ·types of content, as defined by Clayton, in
`
`20· ·encoded or unencoded format.· Your hypothetical
`
`21· ·includes a couple of those types in different
`
`22· ·conditions, and your hypothetical matches or is
`
`23· ·covered by or considered by Dr. Clayton or
`
`24· ·Mr. Clayton in paragraph 55, but it's not limited
`
`25· ·to that.
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · So putting aside what Dr. Stern says,
`
`·2· ·I'm going to ask what Dr. Matheson says about what
`
`·3· ·Clayton discloses.· Okay?
`
`·4· · · · A· · Sure.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · So would you agree that based on my
`
`·6· ·hypothetical that the cellular telephone is
`
`·7· ·sending an encoded MP3 file and an unencoded
`
`·8· ·textual playlist, that that capability is
`
`·9· ·consistent, in your opinion, with the disclosure
`
`10· ·of paragraph 55 of Clayton?
`
`11· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object as to form.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Excuse me.· It's not
`
`13· · · · inconsistent with it, it is consistent with
`
`14· · · · it, but again, paragraph 55 contemplates far
`
`15· · · · more than your narrow hypothetical.
`
`16· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`17· · · · Q· · So my hypothetical is one example of
`
`18· ·something that's consistent with paragraph 55, but
`
`19· ·you say that there are other ways that
`
`20· ·transmission can be done that would be consistent
`
`21· ·with paragraph 55; is that right?
`
`22· · · · A· · I don't believe I said there's other
`
`23· ·ways transmission can be done.· I believe I said
`
`24· ·that it's not limited to the particular
`
`25· ·combination in your hypothetical.
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would you please turn to
`
`·2· ·paragraph 18 of Clayton, please.
`
`·3· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Do you see the first paragraph of
`
`·5· ·your -- sorry.· Strike that.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Do you see the first sentence of
`
`·7· ·paragraph 5 of your reply declaration?· You cite
`
`·8· ·paragraph 18 as support for the statement in the
`
`·9· ·sentence, first sentence of paragraph 5?
`
`10· · · · A· · Looks like I do.
`
`11· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would you please point out to me
`
`12· ·in paragraph 18 how it supports the concept that
`
`13· ·audio content transmitted by the portable device,
`
`14· ·according to Clayton, may be audio from MP3 files?
`
`15· · · · A· · Sure.· Paragraph 18 starts out talking
`
`16· ·about how the content on the target devices, which
`
`17· ·are the portable devices, come from a content
`
`18· ·service 120.· Content service 120 is described
`
`19· ·elsewhere in Clayton as providing content.
`
`20· · · · · · ·For instance, in Figure 2 you see a
`
`21· ·diagram that talks about the content providers,
`
`22· ·and it has a database and an explanation of how it
`
`23· ·goes through the internet and gets to the cellular
`
`24· ·telephone, and since Clayton has defined "content"
`
`25· ·as including MP3 files, this paragraph 18 is
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· ·explaining that those MP3 files are one type of
`
`·2· ·content that could come from the content service.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Where in paragraph 18 does it say that
`
`·4· ·MP3 files are one type of content that could come
`
`·5· ·from the content service?
`
`·6· · · · A· · Well, as we discussed earlier, when
`
`·7· ·Clayton talks about content, you have to look to
`
`·8· ·how he's defined it.· He's defined it, as we
`
`·9· ·looked a little bit ago in paragraph 14, as
`
`10· ·including MP3 files.· He's saying that content
`
`11· ·could come from the content service.· That's one
`
`12· ·way it gets into the cell phone.
`
`13· · · · Q· · So paragraph 18 supports the proposition
`
`14· ·that a cellular telephone may receive content,
`
`15· ·correct?
`
`16· · · · A· · It states, "The target devices may
`
`17· ·download the content from content service 120," so
`
`18· ·that's what I believe it says.
`
`19· · · · Q· · What is a "target device" in Clayton?
`
`20· · · · A· · If you look at Figure 1 -- let me back
`
`21· ·up.· He refers in paragraph 18 to "target devices
`
`22· ·140."· This is a paragraph that's describing
`
`23· ·Figure 1.· If you look at Figure 1, you'll see
`
`24· ·that 140 refers to three different types of target
`
`25· ·devices, target device 141, 142 and 143.· Then if
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·you look at Figure 2 and elsewhere in the text,
`
`·2· ·you'll see that the target device 142, which is
`
`·3· ·part of target device 140, is a cellular
`
`·4· ·telephone.· So that's where he does it.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · So is it fair to say then that paragraph
`
`·6· ·18 describes a target device receiving content,
`
`·7· ·and under Clayton, you say content can include an
`
`·8· ·MP3 file?· Do you agree with that?
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. KIBLAWI:· Object to the form.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Paragraph 18 talks
`
`11· · · · about target devices downloading content.
`
`12· · · · Content, as defined in paragraph 14, includes
`
`13· · · · an MP3 file.
`
`14· ·BY MR. LAMBRIANAKOS:
`
`15· · · · Q· · Okay.· So let's turn to paragraph 36.
`
`16· ·You cite paragraph 36 as support for the first,
`
`17· ·first sentence of paragraph 5 of your reply
`
`18· ·declaration?
`
`19· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · Q· · Where in paragraph 36 does it refer to
`
`21· ·content as an MP3 file?
`
`22· · · · A· · It does it in a couple different ways.
`
`23· ·Just as the paragraph we a moment ago visited, it
`
`24· ·talks about target devices.· Target devices
`
`25· ·include the cellular telephone and other types of
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· ·target devices.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·At the end of the paragraph he says
`
`·3· ·quite expressly, "It will be apparent that other
`
`·4· ·target devices, 140, may also be used, such as
`
`·5· ·other portable content devices; for instance, MP3
`
`·6· ·players," and he goes on, but in answer to your
`
`·7· ·question, I think one of ordinary skill would
`
`·8· ·understand that an MP3 player plays MP3 files, and
`
`·9· ·if that MP3 player received it as a target device,
`
`10· ·it would have an MP3 file in it.
`
`11· · · · Q· · Right.· So in paragraphs 18 and 36, both
`
`12· ·refer to a target device, which can be a cellular
`
`13· ·telephone receiving MP3 files, correct?
`
`14· · · · A· · Paragraph 36 is defining very broadly
`
`15· ·what the target devices can be.· It's other
`
`16· ·paragraphs that talk about what the target devices
`
`17· ·receive.· Included in paragraph 36 is a mention of
`
`18· ·an MP3 player, and as already mentioned, MP3
`
`19· ·players play MP3 files.
`
`20· · · · Q· · Would you agree, though, that a target
`
`21· ·device is defined as a device that receives
`
`22· ·content?
`
`23· · · · A· · I don't believe it's limited to devices
`
`24· ·that receive content from the content server.
`
`25· ·Target devices are devices that contain and play
`
`28
`
`
`
`·1· ·content.· There may be other ways of getting that
`
`·2· ·content into the device.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Is it your testimony that, under
`
`·4· ·Clayton, all target devices may play content?
`
`·5· · · · A· · I'm not sure I can say "all."· Paragraph
`
`·6· ·25 expressly says that "a common interface may be
`
`·7· ·provided on several target devices, 140, that may
`
`·8· ·be used by a single user to play content," so
`
`·9· ·certainly at least some of the target devices play
`
`10· ·content.· I'm not sure Clayton, sitting here,
`
`11· ·expressly says that they all do.· I'd have to
`
`12· ·refresh my memory.
`
`13· · · · Q· · Would you agree at least that, under
`
`14· ·Clayton, a target device is a device that receives
`
`15· ·content?
`
`16· · · · A· · It may receive content, as I believe I
`
`17· ·stated a moment ago.· It's not limited, I believe,
`
`18· ·and again I have to check through here, but I
`
`19· ·don't think it's limited to receiving it from the
`
`20· ·content service.· There's other ways of getting
`
`21· ·content into the, into the target device.
`
`22· · · · Q· · Right.· Well, I didn't ask you about
`
`23· ·exactly how it received content.· The question was
`
`24· ·this:· Would you agree, at least that under
`
`25· ·Clayton, a target device is a device that receives
`
`29
`
`
`
`·1· ·content?
`
`·2· · · · A· · What do you mean by "receives content"?
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Well, why don't you tell me what your
`
`·4· ·understanding of receiving content is.
`
`·5· · · · A· · Well, it depends on the context.· I'm
`
`·6· ·asking you -- can you point to something in
`
`·7· ·Clayton?· Are you talking about what Clayton says
`
`·8· ·about receiving content, or are you asking
`
`·9· ·something more broadly?
`
`10· · · · Q· · Have you read the Clayton publication
`
`11· ·fully?
`
`12· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · · Q· · Do you understand what it says?
`
`14· · · · A· · I do.
`
`15· · · · Q· · Okay.· Looking at paragraph 18, do you
`
`16· ·see the first sentence says "the content service
`
`17· ·may provide content to the target devices via the
`
`18· ·network"?
`
`19· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`20· · · · A· · I see that.
`
`21· · · · Q· · Okay.· Is that your understanding of a
`
`22· ·target device receiving content?
`
`23· · · · A· · That's one way --
`
`24· · · · Q· · Okay.
`
`25· · · · A· · -- of receiving content from the content
`
`30
`
`
`
`·1· ·service.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · And then it says "the target devices may
`
`·3· ·download the content from the content service, may
`
`·4· ·receive content from one or more other target
`
`·5· ·devices, or may be operable to both download
`
`·6· ·content from the content service and receive
`
`·7· ·content from another target device."
`
`·8· · · · · · ·Do you understand that sentence?
`
`·9· · · · A· · I do.
`
`10· · · · Q· · Do you understand what "receiving
`
`11· ·content" is then, don't you?
`
`12· · · · A· · Well, again I was asking what context
`
`13· ·you were talking about.· If you're talking about
`
`14· ·the sentence, then yes, I understand it in the
`
`15· ·context of the sentence.
`
`16· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would you show me where in
`
`17· ·paragraph 18 it refers to a target device, such as
`
`18· ·a portable device, transmitting content?
`
`19·
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