MICI-IAEL FRATTO
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`V .
`
`VIRNETX,
`
`INC..
`
`Patent Owner
`
`Case IPR20l4—OO237
`
`Case IPR20l4—OO238
`
`Patent NO. 8,504,697
`
`DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`August 14, 2014
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Peyonk
`
`Job No. 83382
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2036
`Apple v. VirnetX
`IPR2016-00332
`
`Page 1of 100
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`V .
`
`VIRNETX,
`
`INC..
`
`Patent Owner
`
`Case IPR20l4—OO237
`
`Case IPR20l4—OO238
`
`Patent NO. 8,504,697
`
`DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`August 14, 2014
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Peyonk
`
`Job No. 83382
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2036
`Apple v. VirnetX
`IPR2016-00332
`
`Page 1of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Thursday, August 14, 2014
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`Deposition of MICHAEL FRATTO, held at
`
`the offices of Sidley Austin, 1501 K Street,
`
`NW, Washington, DC, pursuant to Notice
`
`before Mary Ann Payonk, Nationally Certified
`
`Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the
`
`District of Columbia, Commonwealth of Virginia,
`
`States of Maryland and New York.
`
`Page 2 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF VIRNETX INC.:
`
`NAVEEN MODI
`
`JOSEPH PALYS
`
`DANIEL ZEILBERGER
`
`PAUL HASTINGS
`
`875 15th Street, NW
`
`Washington, DC
`
`20005
`
`ON BEHALF OF APPLE INC.:
`
`SCOTT BORDER
`
`JEFFREY KUSHAN
`
`SIDLEY AUSTIN
`
`1501 K Street, NW
`
`Washington, DC 20005
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`Jason Stach (By phone)
`
`Page 3 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO,
`
`called as a witness, having been duly
`
`sworn, was examined and testified as
`
`follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. MODI:
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Good morning, Mr. Fratto.
`
`Good morning.
`
`How are you today?
`
`Fine. Yourself?
`
`Good,
`
`thanks.
`
`Can you state your full name for the
`
`It's Michael Fratto.
`
`What is your address?
`
`105 Marion Avenue, Syracuse,
`
`Have you ever been deposed before?
`
`I have not.
`
`Have you testified in court before?
`
`I have not.
`
`You understand you are under oath
`
`Yes,
`
`I do.
`
`And you also understand that I'll be
`
`Page 4 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`asking you questions and the questions will be
`
`transcribed by the court reporter ——
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes, sir.
`
`—— and the answers?
`
`We will be taking breaks
`
`periodically, but if there's a pending
`
`question,
`
`I would ask that you answer that
`
`before we take a break.
`
`Is that fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Your lawyer may object today.
`
`You
`
`have to answer anyway unless he instructs you
`
`not to answer.
`
`Do you understand that?
`
`Yes.
`
`If you don't understand a question,
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`please let me know.
`
`I'll try my best to
`
`rephrase it. But if not,
`
`I'm going to assume
`
`you understand it.
`
`Is that fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`I'm really bad at this.
`
`I'll try my
`
`best. We will have to try our best not to
`
`speak over each other today.
`
`Is that
`
`~—
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`You understand that?
`
`Do you have any questions before we
`
`Page 5 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`I do not.
`
`Q.
`
`Any reason you cannot testify
`
`completely and accurately today?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`NO.
`
`What did you do to prepare for your
`
`deposition today?
`
`A.
`
`I read over my declarations and the
`
`references that the board instituted, as well
`
`as the '697 patent.
`
`Q.
`
`A
`
`Q.
`
`A
`
`Did you talk to anyone?
`
`Conferred with counsel.
`
`Who was that?
`
`Mr. Border, Mr. Kushan, and Tom
`
`Okay.
`
`So all Sidley attorneys?
`
`Yes.
`
`Anyone other than those three?
`
`Just those three.
`
`Q.
`
`How long did you prepare for your
`
`deposition?
`
`A.
`
`I probably spent upwards of 80 hours,
`
`perhaps.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`You said 80 hours?
`
`Yes.
`
`Page 6 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`And this was during the course of how
`
`long?
`
`For how many days was this?
`
`A.
`
`So it was actually spread out.
`
`It
`
`was a couple hours a day for the last,
`
`I think,
`
`six weeks when I was notified that I'd be
`
`deposed.
`
`Q.
`
`And how long did you meet with your
`
`attorneys to prepare for your deposition?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`The last two days.
`
`Did you bring anything with you today
`
`to help you testify?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I did not.
`
`Can you tell me about your education
`
`since high school?
`
`A.
`
`Sure.
`
`How much detail do you want me
`
`to get
`
`into?
`
`Q.
`
`Why don't you just give me high level
`
`for now, and we can follow up if necessary.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`So I went to —— when I was 21,
`
`I started going to junior college in Florida.
`
`Went for two years, ended up transferring to
`
`Towson State University. Went to Towson State
`
`for a couple of years, moved to New York. Went
`
`to a junior college in preparation of going —~
`
`in preparation for going to Syracuse
`
`Page 7 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`University,
`
`then I got my degree at Syracuse
`
`University.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And that was in 2001?
`
`Yes. Yeah,
`
`that was when the degree
`
`was conferred, yeah.
`
`I think.
`
`Q.
`
`When did you start going to the
`
`college in Florida?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`If I recall, it was 1984.
`
`And what did you study?
`
`It was a general curriculum in
`
`preparation for going on to a four~year degree,
`
`so basic math, writing, science.
`
`Q.
`
`So that was for two years you said,
`
`I
`
`believe.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`For two years, yes.
`
`And then you also said you went to
`
`Towson State; correct?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And when was that?
`
`I don't recall the dates offhand.
`
`I
`
`think it was somewhere late '80s, early '90s,
`
`I
`
`believe.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`And what did you study there?
`
`I was majoring in philosophy.
`
`And how long did you go to Towson
`
`Page 8 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`State?
`
`A.
`
`I think it was three years, maybe,
`
`all told, as far as I recall.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you end up getting a degree in
`
`philosophy?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I did not.
`
`Any other ~— actually, let's go to
`
`Syracuse. What was your degree in at Syracuse?
`
`A.
`
`It was —— actually, it's —— it was
`
`misentered in the declaration.
`
`It's a BA in
`
`information science and technology.
`
`I
`
`mentioned it was a BS. That was a typo, a
`
`misprint.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`And how long did you go to Syracuse?
`
`If I recall, it was two years to get
`
`the degree.
`
`Q.
`
`And what
`
`type of courses did you take
`
`at Syracuse?
`
`A.
`
`There were a variety of courses
`
`covering information technology, networking,
`
`systems analysis, as well as some general
`
`courses to fill out, you know, electives and to
`
`fill in other requirements, advanced writing.
`
`Q.
`
`And when did you start at Syracuse?
`
`I believe it was 1995,
`
`if I recall
`
`Page 9 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`correctly.
`
`Q.
`
`So you went there approximately for
`
`six years?
`
`A.
`
`No. Actually,
`
`I went for two years.
`
`I completed all my course work in '97.
`
`I
`
`just —— I had some paperwork to submit which I
`
`just kept forgetting to submit until 2001 or
`
`whenever the degree was conferred.
`
`Q.
`
`So after 1997, you did not take any
`
`courses at Syracuse?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`submit?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`What paperwork did you have to
`
`I don't recall, honestly.
`
`Any other education other than what
`
`you've told me so far?
`
`A.
`
`I took a training course probably in
`
`'98 or '99 given by Cisco.
`
`It was their
`
`introduction to Cisco routers. That was a
`
`week—long course that I took in New York.
`
`No
`
`certification or anything came out of it, and
`
`that's everything.
`
`Q.
`
`And how long was that course?
`
`It was a week.
`
`It was five days.
`
`You said this was on routers?
`
`Page 10 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`What was the reason you changed from
`
`philosophy to information technology,
`
`if any?
`
`A. Well,
`
`there wasn't a reason to switch
`
`from one to the other specifically.
`
`I mean,
`
`I
`
`just stopped taking courses at Towson.
`
`I was
`
`in my final semester.
`
`I lost interest in the
`
`topic.
`
`I realized it wasn't a career I wanted
`
`to pursue.
`
`I did a few other things in between
`
`and decided I wanted to move into information
`
`technology,
`
`so that's when I went to Syracuse
`
`University.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`school?
`
`So that was in 1995?
`
`In '95, yes.
`
`What year did you graduate from high
`
`A.
`
`I didn't.
`
`I have a GED that was
`
`awarded in 1983 maybe,
`
`I think.
`
`Q.
`
`Let's talk about your job since high
`
`school.
`
`Can you sort of give me a high—level
`
`overview of your jobs since high school?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Since high school?
`
`Yes.
`
`I was in the Navy for four years,
`
`Page 11 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`from 1979 to 1983. After that,
`
`I held a
`
`Variety of odd jobs.
`
`I don't remember the
`
`dates.
`
`I mean,
`
`I worked at a Meals on Wheels
`
`factory.
`
`I worked at a print shop. Actually,
`
`two print shops.
`
`I worked at a video
`
`warehouse, a video store managing a warehouse.
`
`I was a bartender, bartender, waiter, bar
`
`manager, etc.
`
`I owned a commercial cleaning
`
`business for a year.
`
`I worked for a storage
`
`company for a couple of years.
`
`I did some
`
`consulting,
`
`some IT consulting. This would
`
`have been early '90s at this point.
`
`I worked in a carpet store when I
`
`moved to central New York.
`
`Then while I was
`
`going to school
`
`I started freelancing in
`
`Network Computing, was hired in Network
`
`Computing, and stayed there for 15 years until
`
`my current position.
`
`I think that about sums
`
`it up.
`
`Q.
`
`And your current position is with
`
`which company?
`
`A.
`
`I'm a principal analyst with Current
`
`Analysis.
`
`They want me to make it clear that
`
`my opinions are my own and don't reflect the
`
`Page 12 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`company.
`
`Q.
`
`In terms of computers, what would you
`
`say your first job was?
`
`A.
`
`I was —— back in the early '90s,
`
`I
`
`was doing some consulting with some small
`
`businesses.
`
`Q.
`
`And what did you do as part of that
`
`consulting?
`
`A.
`
`Remote office automation, so
`
`scripting, gluing programs together and etc.
`
`Q.
`
`When you said "remote office
`
`automation," what does that mean?
`
`A.
`
`At the time,
`
`I was writing programs
`
`that would pull information out of a computer
`
`system on a periodic basis,
`
`typically nightly,
`
`and then reformat that data into —— sorry,
`
`format that could be consumed by another, so
`
`taking —— basically,
`
`just automating that
`
`process. Was also doing some automation around
`
`distributing notices, you know,
`
`to multiple
`
`offices,
`
`so things of that nature.
`
`Q.
`
`And you said you wrote programs.
`
`What
`
`language were they in?
`
`A.
`
`So back then,
`
`the programs would have
`
`been written in,
`
`if I —— again,
`
`I'm recalling.
`
`Page 13 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`This is 20, 17 years ago, 20 years ago.
`
`C,
`
`the
`
`C language. Pascal, perhaps. And then there
`
`was some scripting languages for some
`
`communication programs, packages.
`
`I don't
`
`recall the name.
`
`Q.
`
`How did you learn those languages?
`
`Self—taught.
`
`Are you familiar with any languages
`
`Yes.
`
`Which ones?
`
`A.
`
`C, Pascal, Turbo Pascal, PERL, PHP,
`
`JAVA, Javascript, a little bit of Python. And
`
`then there are a couple of scripting languages,
`
`shell scripting, couple different shell --
`
`scripting languages within shells themselves.
`
`Q.
`
`So you can write programs in these
`
`languages?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`In every single one of them?
`
`Yes.
`
`I probably wouldn't be able to
`
`sit down and bang one out without
`
`looking at
`
`references, but —~
`
`Q.
`
`You also mentioned scripting.
`
`Can
`
`you tell us a little bit more about scripting
`
`Page 14 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`in your job,
`
`in the consulting job that you do?
`
`A.
`
`Certainly.
`
`So scripting would have
`
`been using —— at that time, it would have been
`
`DOS batch files, which just basically glues
`
`together MS DOS commands and programs running
`
`in MS DOS into a script.
`
`So there's —— there are some control
`
`functions like loops and whatnot that are in
`
`there, but really, it's really more whatever
`
`you would type on the command line,
`
`I just take
`
`those and put them into a batch file and put
`
`some logic around them,
`
`so —~
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`file, yes.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`So like an autoexec.bat?
`
`That would be an example of a batch
`
`And who was this consulting for?
`
`They were for a variety of companies.
`
`They were all small.
`
`I don't remember who they
`
`were at this point. There were some small
`
`offices. There was a storage company;
`
`there
`
`was an insurance company.
`
`I don't remember the
`
`names offhand.
`
`Q.
`
`So I believe on your CV you list that
`
`as 1987 to 1992 as the consulting job. Would
`
`that be fair, sort of the consulting that you
`
`Page 15 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`did,
`
`the scripting and remote office
`
`automation?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`If that was listed in the CV, yes.
`
`I believe your CV lists it from 1987
`
`to 1992. Does that sound right to you?
`
`A.
`
`I don't have it in front of me, but
`
`if it says that in the CV,
`
`then yes.
`
`Q.
`
`Then you said after that consulting,
`
`these series of consulting jobs, you went to
`
`Network Computing;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes,
`
`I went to Syracuse.
`
`What made you move to Syracuse?
`
`My wife. Well,
`
`then girlfriend, now
`
`You said you held a series of
`
`positions for Network Computing;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`When I was fully employed, yes.
`
`And when you were not fully employed?
`
`I was a freelance editor, so I would
`
`take jobs on contract, basically.
`
`Q.
`
`So that was not a full—time job is
`
`what you're saying?
`
`A.
`
`It wasn't full—time employment.
`
`It
`
`was 40, 50 hours a week.
`
`Q.
`
`What do you consider to be full—time
`
`Page 16 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`employment?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`40, 50 hours a week.
`
`Okay. Because I just asked you,
`
`"That wasn't a full—time job," and I think --
`
`so I'm a little confused.
`
`A.
`
`I'm sorry,
`
`let me be specific.
`
`I was
`
`not employed by Network Computing at that time
`
`in a full—time position, but I was taking
`
`enough contracts to fill 40, 50 hours a week.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay,
`
`thank you.
`
`And I believe your CV lists you as a
`
`freelance editor with Network Computing from
`
`April
`
`'94 to June '97?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`If that's what's in the CV,
`
`then yes.
`
`And during your during that position,
`
`the position you held as a freelance editor,
`
`what did you do?
`
`A.
`
`I did a variety of things.
`
`I was
`
`testing products.
`
`I was writing product
`
`evaluations.
`
`I was writing workshops and
`
`how—to's.
`
`I was writing some opinions,
`
`some,
`
`you know, market analysis, product analysis.
`
`I
`
`was interacting with vendors on a variety of
`
`levels, both getting product briefings as well
`
`as troubleshooting any issues that I found,
`
`Page 17 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`verifying results, resolving any conflicts.
`
`I
`
`was doing equipment setup,
`
`teardown, creating
`
`network environments,
`
`IT environments for
`
`testing.
`
`Q.
`
`So this was all during '94 to '97?
`
`Correct.
`
`Q.
`
`You mentioned that you tested
`
`products in that position.
`
`How many products
`
`did you test?
`
`A.
`
`I don't recall. More than one.
`
`I
`
`don't know. Many. Many, many products.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Less than five?
`
`No, it was —~ no, it —— more than
`
`one,
`
`less than a thousand.
`
`I mean,
`
`there were
`
`a lot of products that I was looking at at the
`
`time.
`
`I —— honestly,
`
`I don't recall the
`
`number.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Do you remember what products?
`
`I remember the class of products.
`
`I
`
`remember a couple product names. At that
`
`point,
`
`I was looking at remote access servers,
`
`both for large enterprise, small offices.
`
`I
`
`was looking at modems.
`
`I was looking at VPN
`
`products.
`
`I was looking at other security
`
`products.
`
`Those are the major classes that ——
`
`Page 18 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`I looked at a couple of routers.
`
`Those are the
`
`things that sort of off the top of my head that
`
`I remember as far as classes go.
`
`Q.
`
`And you tested each one of those
`
`products?
`
`A.
`
`The products that I tested,
`
`I tested.
`
`I mean,
`
`I didn't —— I wouldn't say that I
`
`tested every single product in a particular
`
`product class, but the ones that I had in the
`
`lab were the ones that I tested.
`
`Q.
`
`And you don't remember which ones you
`
`tested?
`
`A.
`
`Not exact models.
`
`I mean,
`
`I remember
`
`many of the vendors that I tested.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What were the vendors?
`
`So at that time, it would have been
`
`vendors like Ascend Communications, Cisco, HP,
`
`Livingston, U.S. Robotics, Nortel, Emulex,
`
`Checkpoint, products from VPNet, products from
`
`Aventail, products from a vendor, Red
`
`something.
`
`I forget the last name. They're
`
`gone.
`
`Red Creek. Many more.
`
`Q.
`
`But you don't remember which ones of
`
`the products from any of these vendors you
`
`tested?
`
`Page 19 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Specific model numbers, no.
`
`But sitting here today, you can tell
`
`me you tested a product
`
`from each of those
`
`vendors?
`
`A.
`
`And more. These are the ones that I
`
`can recall, sitting here today.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`And this was between '94 and '97?
`
`Yes.
`
`When you tested the products, what
`
`did that entail?
`
`A.
`
`Are you asking about specific product
`
`or just in general?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Let's start generally.
`
`General?
`
`So in general --
`
`Again, let's focus on that
`
`'94 to '97
`
`time frame.
`
`A.
`
`Okay, that's fine. Between '94 and
`
`'97 in general,
`
`I would —— there's a lengthy
`
`process that simply repeated over and over
`
`again.
`
`I would be notified of the product in
`
`some way. Either I found it or I was briefed
`
`by the vendor. We would make arrangements to
`
`get the product to me.
`
`You know, we'd have
`
`conversations beforehand talking about what was
`
`Page 20 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`the product supposed to do, what were its
`
`goals, how it was supposed to function, what
`
`kind of environment was required, you know,
`
`what was —— what were the relevant kinds of
`
`tests.
`
`I would take all this input in
`
`formulating a test plan and a methodology to go
`
`about testing.
`
`I would get the product
`
`in.
`
`I would
`
`create the environment that was needed to
`
`support the task,
`
`so that includes not only the
`
`infrastructure for the network development or
`
`the product to communicate but also the
`
`adjacent services,
`
`so DNS, DHCP, directory
`
`services if those are required, authentication
`
`services if those are required.
`
`So all of that stuff would be set up
`
`and established.
`
`I'd put the product into the
`
`network.
`
`I would —— or into that environment,
`
`do the integration.
`
`I would run through the
`
`tests,
`
`come up with some initial conclusions,
`
`and notify the vendor of my conclusions, what I
`
`was finding.
`
`If during this process there were
`
`ever any problems or bugs that I found,
`
`I would
`
`notify the vendor that —— of the issues that I
`
`Page 21 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`found.
`
`I would work with them to get those
`
`problems resolved or addressed in some way, and
`
`then I would write up my report.
`
`Q.
`
`Now, you said —~ if I'm using the
`
`incorrect terminology, you can correct me.
`
`You
`
`said you were essentially a contractor for
`
`Network Computing at that time.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`How did you get the equipment you
`
`needed to test the various products?
`
`A.
`
`The products I was testing, or all
`
`the other infrastructure products?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What do you mean?
`
`I'm asking you to clarify. Asking
`
`how did I get the products to test, or how did
`
`I get the products to create the
`
`infrastructure,
`
`the test environment?
`
`Q.
`
`I'm talking about the testing
`
`environment.
`
`A.
`
`So that was -— typically, it would be
`
`onsite already in the lab that we were using,
`
`so it —— there would be a mix of commercial
`
`products that we had either purchased or on
`
`long—term loan for commercials, or I would use
`
`open source products to build the environment.
`
`Page 22 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`So you mentioned a lab. Where was
`
`this lab?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`It was on Syracuse University.
`
`So the lab at Syracuse that you used,
`
`was it also the one you used for your studies?
`
`A.
`
`I'm not sure I understand the
`
`question.
`
`Q.
`
`So you said you used a lab at
`
`Syracuse to test the products.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`So that was obviously owned by
`
`Syracuse but a university, not Network
`
`Consulting; right.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Network Computing.
`
`Or network Computing.
`
`Is that right?
`
`The space was actually leased.
`
`The
`
`space for the lab was leased from Syracuse
`
`University by —— at that point,
`
`the company was
`
`CNP Media, but they owned Network Computing,
`
`and the equipment was either variously owned by
`
`CNP Media or was on long—term loan from the
`
`vendors.
`
`We received basic infrastructure,
`
`networking, a network drop, end power, and
`
`space initially from Syracuse University.
`
`Page 23 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`Did you review any of the source code
`
`for any of the products you tested?
`
`A.
`
`If it was a commercial product, no.
`
`If it was an open source product,
`
`I may have.
`
`I don't recall if I —— any specific instance.
`
`Let me correct that. Let me correct
`
`that.
`
`If the commercial product used scripting
`
`language that was in plain text, again,
`
`I don't
`
`recall any particular instances, but I may have
`
`looked at that,
`
`those scripts.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Can you write source code?
`
`I can.
`
`Q. Which languages?
`
`A.
`
`The eight or nine that I listed
`
`previously.
`
`Q. With the qualification that you may
`
`need to refer to books to do that?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`And then after —— in '97, you moved
`
`to a full—time position at Network Computing;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`position?
`
`Correct.
`
`What did you do in that full—time
`
`A.
`
`So it was basically the same thing as
`
`Page 24 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`I described to you as a freelance editor.
`
`I
`
`would do the product testing.
`
`I also had
`
`additional duties basically in, you know,
`
`maintaining relationships with vendors, more
`
`responsibilities in creating the editorial
`
`calendar, more responsibilities in assisting
`
`colleagues and peers and coworkers, going to
`
`trade shows.
`
`So there were some more
`
`responsibilities involved.
`
`Q.
`
`And that was from June '97 to
`
`June 2004?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`I went
`
`from an associate
`
`technology editor to position of senior
`
`technology editor,
`
`I recall. Again, it's in
`
`the CV, and my duties expanded.
`
`Q.
`
`And then in July 2004, you started
`
`working for the Secure Enterprise magazine;
`
`is
`
`that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Computing?
`
`If the date's correct in the CV.
`
`Is that connected to Network
`
`A.
`
`Owned by the same parent company.
`
`I
`
`believe at that point, CNP Media was acquired
`
`by United Business Media, but yeah, so same
`
`company,
`
`same lab space, different magazine.
`
`Page 25 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`And what did you do for Secure
`
`Enterprise magazine?
`
`A.
`
`So as editor of Secure Enterprise
`
`magazine,
`
`I did all the testing and all the
`
`things I did up to being a senior technology
`
`editor at Network Computing.
`
`So all of those
`
`duties transferred over, but I was focusing
`
`specifically on security products in the
`
`security market.
`
`And,
`
`in addition,
`
`I was solely
`
`responsible for creating the editorial
`
`calendar, sourcing freelance writers, making
`
`sure that all the content was acceptable.
`
`I was involved in decisions on
`
`design, on the content side of creating the
`
`magazine, and I would represent Secure
`
`Enterprise going out to trade shows both as an
`
`attendee as well as presenting.
`
`Q.
`
`During that time, did you test any
`
`products?
`
`A.
`
`I did.
`
`Q. Which products?
`
`A.
`
`I couldn't tell you.
`
`I mean, again,
`
`I could tell you names of vendors that I would
`
`have dealt with.
`
`I can't recall what
`
`the
`
`Page 26 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`actual products were.
`
`Q.
`
`And then you moved back to Network
`
`Computing;
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`And that was —— your CV says it was
`
`in April 2006.
`
`Is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`If that's what the CV says, yes.
`
`And what did you do when you moved
`
`back to Network Computing in April 2006?
`
`A.
`
`Pretty much doing the same thing
`
`except for I wasn't the editor of the magazine,
`
`so I was —— the roles would have been back to
`
`doing product testing,
`
`talking to vendors
`
`representing Network Computing at trade shows,
`
`presenting, working with my coworkers, helping
`
`them get their things done.
`
`Q.
`
`And your CV also states that you were
`
`a lab manager at that time.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`What was that?
`
`If that —— so lab manager at that
`
`time,
`
`so 2007,
`
`I was managing the lab, so I was
`
`responsible for the budget for our two labs.
`
`I
`
`think at that time we had two labs.
`
`I was
`
`managing the equipment allocations.
`
`I was
`
`Page 27 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`managing the lab at Syracuse University so I
`
`would work with other freelance editors we had
`
`working out of that particular lab to create
`
`test beds,
`
`to create —~
`
`to allocate equipment,
`
`to receive and ship product,
`
`troubleshoot the
`
`network, make sure that everything was working
`
`and available in addition to my own product
`
`testing and other duties.
`
`Q.
`
`You said there were two labs.
`
`These
`
`were at Syracuse University?
`
`A.
`
`No. We had one lab at Syracuse
`
`University, at some point,
`
`two locations. We
`
`had another lab in Wisconsin, a separate lab in
`
`Wisconsin.
`
`Q.
`
`When you say "we had," you were
`
`referring to Network Computing; correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I'm sorry, Network Computing, yes.
`
`I just wanted to be clear.
`
`Yes.
`
`And when did you start working at the
`
`lab in Wisconsin?
`
`A.
`
`I didn't work at the lab in
`
`Wisconsin. We had separate people —— Network
`
`Computing had editors located in Wisconsin.
`
`I
`
`was responsible solely for their budget and
`
`Page 28 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`fulfilling equipment requests.
`
`Q.
`
`So the lab that you worked at was the
`
`one in Syracuse?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`At Syracuse University?
`
`Correct.
`
`And then your CV states you moved to
`
`Information Week in January of 2008.
`
`Is that
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I assume so, yes.
`
`Is Information Week connected to
`
`Network Computing?
`
`A.
`
`It's also —— it was also owned by the
`
`same company,
`
`so we worked somewhat
`
`collaboratively together.
`
`Q.
`
`And what did you do for Information
`
`Week?
`
`A.
`
`So I don't have my CV in front of me.
`
`I don't recall the dates. What was the date?
`
`Q.
`
`It states January I, 2008 to
`
`August 2009.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`So at that point, we had
`
`closed the lab at Syracuse University. We had
`
`removed all the equipment. We had —— so my
`
`product testing duties at that point ended
`
`Page 29 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`almost entirely. And for Information Week,
`
`I
`
`was doing product analysis and writing news and
`
`news analysis.
`
`Q.
`
`When you say you were doing product
`
`analysis, what does that mean?
`
`A.
`
`It means that a Vendor would —— when
`
`they were going to come out with a product,
`
`I
`
`would get a prebriefing ahead of the product
`
`announcement and perform an analysis. What
`
`does it mean?
`
`The market. What are the major
`
`functions?
`
`I would do an analysis on the
`
`claims that were made and then, based on my
`
`understanding of the technology and talking
`
`with the vendor, how well that product might
`
`meet those claims.
`
`Q.
`
`But that did not
`
`include the testing?
`
`A. After 2008, correct. After that --
`
`after I moved —— I'm sorry, after I moved to
`
`Information Week, correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Now, your CV also states that you
`
`managed the lab in CENT.
`
`A.
`
`That was prior to 2008.
`
`Q. Well, actually, it states as part of
`
`the Information Week duties, it says:
`
`"I managed the lab in CENT and
`
`Page 30 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`provided guidance to certain lab
`
`assistant who work in CENT."
`
`A.
`
`So I was working at that point in
`
`collaboration with Syracuse University.
`
`It's
`
`the Center of Emerging Network Technologies at
`
`Syracuse University that a friend and colleague
`
`ran, so I was providing some professional
`
`guidance and assistance to them in their
`
`testing and in their product analysis.
`
`Q.
`
`I'm sorry,
`
`I'm confused. Was that
`
`during your job at Information Week?
`
`A.
`
`If the dates line up to that time,
`
`then yes.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`It says "I managed the lab in CENT."
`
`Probably poor choice of words at that
`
`point.
`
`I was working with students at that
`
`point helping them to manage the lab.
`
`Q.
`
`And what was the lab used for?
`
`Mainly for student education.
`
`Q.
`
`So this was at Syracuse University
`
`again?
`
`A.
`
`Syracuse University, student
`
`education,
`
`so they could get hands—on
`
`experience with products and tests.
`
`Q.
`
`This is a different lab from the one
`
`Page 31 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`we have been talking about at Syracuse
`
`University that you worked at?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`As I recall, yes.
`
`And then you moved back to Network
`
`Computing in August of 2009;
`
`is that right?
`
`If that's what the CV says. As
`
`Yes.
`
`Correct.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What did you do as editor?
`
`So as editor,
`
`I was responsible for
`
`writing news stories, putting the news stories
`
`into our content management system, sourcing
`
`freelancers, developing an editorial calendar,
`
`working with our publisher and sales
`
`department, representing Network Computing at
`
`industry events,
`
`things of that nature.
`
`Q.
`
`But no product testing?
`
`I may have done one or two,
`
`I don't
`
`But generally no, no product testing.
`
`And you held that position until what
`
`Would have been 2011, whatever my CV
`
`The CV says "August 2009 to present,
`
`Page 32 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`editor, Network Computing."
`
`A.
`
`Okay,
`
`so that was written before I --
`
`before I left Network Computing.
`
`So I started
`
`in my current position in October of —— it's
`
`20l4 —— 2012.
`
`Q.
`
`And that's for Current Analysis?
`
`Current Analysis, yes.
`
`Q.
`
`And what do you do for Current
`
`Analysis?
`
`A.
`
`Today,
`
`I am a principal analyst for
`
`enterprise network —— networking and systems.
`
`I do a variety of things.
`
`I perform
`
`competitive analysis. We do qualitative
`
`analysis on the industry.
`
`The competitive analysis is aimed to
`
`help our clients create actually a little bit
`
`of market strategies to understand the impacts
`
`and the effects of their competitors‘
`
`go—to—market strategies and product
`
`announcements.
`
`I write various short— and
`
`long—form reports and interact with vendors and
`
`represent Current Analysis at trade show
`
`events.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What about product testing?
`
`We do not do any product testing.
`
`Page 33 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`So would it be fair that since
`
`January of —— January I of 2008 to the present,
`
`you haven't done product testing?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`Sitting here today, can you recall
`
`any products that you've tested in your career?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q. Which ones?
`
`A.
`
`Specific?
`
`Do you want specific
`
`product names and model numbers?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Let's start with product names.
`
`Product names? Red Creek, Ravlin,
`
`Aventail, Check Point Firewall 1, Cisco ASA,
`
`Cisco X, Cisco 2600, Cisco 3500, Cisco 6500.
`
`Juniper M. No, scratch that. Did not review
`
`any Juniper products.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Maybe slow down just for her sake.
`
`Yes,
`
`I'm sorry. Netscreen firewalls,
`
`Netopia SSL VPN.
`
`Those are the product names
`
`that —— the publications I'm sure are
`
`searchable,
`
`I just can't bring them all up
`
`right now.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`You mentioned Red Creek.
`
`Yes.
`
`When did you test that?
`
`Page 34 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`A.
`
`If I recall correctly, it would have
`
`been probably starting somewhere around 1995 or
`
`'96.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Did it end at some point?
`
`It did.
`
`It ended when the company
`
`was either folded or got acquired.
`
`I don't
`
`recall when that was.
`
`Q.
`
`And what product was it for Red
`
`Creek?
`
`A.
`
`If I recall correctly,
`
`the name was
`
`Ravlin,
`
`some model number.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`What did it do?
`
`It was an IPSec VPN gateway.
`
`What about
`
`~— you also mentioned
`
`Check Point.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`When did you test that?
`
`It would have been in the same time
`
`period,
`
`so starting somewhere in the mid '90s
`
`to perhaps 2005,
`
`if I recall. Again,
`
`I don't
`
`have the dates handy.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`So you test a product for five years?
`
`I'm sorry,
`
`I was imprecise.
`
`I would
`
`test a product at Various points throughout
`
`that time period,
`
`so the products were not
`
`Page 35 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`under constant test.
`
`They would come out with
`
`a new product and I would test it.
`
`Q.
`
`So Check Point is a name of a company
`
`or a product?
`
`A.
`
`I'm sorry, it was the name of a
`
`product.
`
`I'm sorry, a company. Firewall 1.
`
`The name went
`
`through a number of iterations.
`
`Firewall 1 is the name that I recall. There
`
`were other names for the same product.
`
`Q.
`
`Then you mentioned a bunch of Cisco
`
`products.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`
`When did you test those products?
`
`A. Would have been in the same time
`
`period.
`
`I don't recall specific instances of
`
`testing specific products, or I should say I
`
`don't recall specific dates of testing specific
`
`products.
`
`Q.
`
`So for all these products would be
`
`anywhere from '95 through 2008?
`
`A. Whenever I started freelancing, so
`
`'94 up through 2008.
`
`Q.
`
`As part of your product review, did
`
`you look at standards?
`
`A.
`
`YES.
`
`Page 36 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q. Which standards?
`
`A.
`
`I don't recall specific standards,
`
`just specific products.
`
`It would have been
`
`whatever standards were relevant to the product
`
`that I was reviewing,
`
`the nature of the review
`
`that I was undertaking.
`
`It varied.
`
`Q.
`
`Sitting here today, you don't recall
`
`any standards?
`
`A.
`
`I don't recall —— well,
`
`I recall
`
`specific standards, not specific standards
`
`related to specific products,
`
`if that's what
`
`you're asking.
`
`Q.
`
`Right.
`
`So you don't recall any
`
`standards related to any products you tested?
`
`A.
`
`That's incorrect.
`
`I do not recall
`
`any standards in relation to specific products.
`
`In other words,
`
`I couldn't say I tested this
`
`product and I looked at this standard.
`
`Q.
`
`What are some of the standards you
`
`reviewed?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`In relation to?
`
`In relation to your job doing the
`
`product reviews.
`
`A. Might be difficult, but what —— which
`
`products?
`
`Page 37 of 100
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Any of them.
`
`Any?
`
`In the case of IPSec VPN, it
`
`would have been the IPSec RFCs, both the draft,
`
`the early drafts and then when they
`
`transitioned over to an RFC status,
`
`I would
`
`have looked at standards around the SOCKS 4 and
`
`SOCKS 5 protocol and the additional standards
`
`around those.
`
`I would have looked at the
`
`standards around IPTCP EPP networking
`
`protocols.
`
`I would have looked at protocols
`
`around DNS and all of th
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
