UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner
`v.
`VIRNETX INC. AND APPLICATION INTERNATIONAL
`CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner /
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00866 (Patent 8,458,341)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00868 (Patent 8,516,131)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00870 (Patent 8,560,705)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00871 (Patent 8,560,705)
`
` DEPOSITION OF FABIAN MONROSE, Ph.D.
` THURSDAY, MARCH 24, 2016
` WASHINGTON, D.C.
`
`PAGES: 1 - 142
`JOB NO.: 105257
`REPORTED BY: KATHY SAVICH, RPR, CLR, RSA
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 1
`
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` Page 1 of 142
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`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2025
`Apple v. VirnetX
`IPR2016-00331
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
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`APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner
`v.
`VIRNETX INC. AND APPLICATION INTERNATIONAL
`CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner /
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00866 (Patent 8,458,341)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00868 (Patent 8,516,131)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00870 (Patent 8,560,705)
`CASE NO. IPR2015-00871 (Patent 8,560,705)
`
` DEPOSITION OF FABIAN MONROSE, Ph.D.
` THURSDAY, MARCH 24, 2016
` WASHINGTON, D.C.
`
`PAGES: 1 - 142
`JOB NO.: 105257
`REPORTED BY: KATHY SAVICH, RPR, CLR, RSA
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 1
`
`
` Page 1 of 142
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`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2025
`Apple v. VirnetX
`IPR2016-00331
`
`
`
`Page 2
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` Thursday, March 24, 2016
` 9:00 a.m.
`
` Deposition of FABIAN MONROSE,
`Ph.D., held at Paul Hastings, LLP, 875
`15th Street, N.W., Washington, D.C.,
`pursuant to Notice of Deposition,
`proceedings were reported by Kathy
`Savich, RPR, CLR, RSA and Notary
`Public in and for the District of
`Columbia.
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 2
`
`Page 2 of 142
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER, APPLE INC.:
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
` SAMUEL DILLON, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS BROUGHAN III, ESQUIRE
` 1501 K Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER:
` PAUL HASTINGS
` DANIEL ZEILBERGER, ESQUIRE
` JOSEPH PALYS, ESQUIRE
` 875 15th Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 3
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`Page 3 of 142
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` I N D E X
`DEPOSITION OF FABIAN MONROSE, Ph.D. PAGE
`BY MS. McMONAGLE 05
`BY MR. ZEILBERGER --
`
` E X H I B I T S
`(No new exhibits were marked.)
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 4
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`Page 4 of 142
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`Whereupon,
` FABIAN MONROSE, Ph.D.,
`having been called as a witness, after having
`been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. So I know you have been deposed
`before, but let me go over the ground rules.
` I'm going to ask you questions
`and you will answer them. From time to time
`your attorney may object. You still must
`answer the question unless your attorney
`instructs you not to.
` Be sure to answer verbally and
`not say uh-huh or huh-uh because the court
`reporter is writing down what we say.
` If you don't understand a
`question, you can ask me to clarify it or to
`repeat the question and I will be happy to do
`so.
` If for any reason you need a
`break, please ask and I will do my best to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 5
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`Page 5 of 142
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`accommodate you, though, I will ask that you
`answer the question before we take a break.
` Do you understand those rules?
` A. I do.
` Q. Is there any reason you cannot
`provide truthful testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you have any questions for
`me?
` A. I do not.
` Q. You understand that today we
`will be discussing four proceedings,
`IPR2015-00866, IPR2015-O0868, IPR2015-0O870
`and IPR2015-00871, right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. I will refer to these
`proceedings by the last three numbers of
`their IPR case number, so '866, '868, '870
`and '871, is that okay?
` A. That's okay.
` Q. You submitted a declaration in
`each of these proceedings, right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. I see you have a binder. Does
`that include the four declarations you
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 6
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`Page 6 of 142
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`submitted in these proceedings?
` A. Yes, the declarations.
` Q. Are there any markings or notes
`you have made in those declarations?
` A. No marking.
` Q. I will like similarly refer to
`these declarations by using the last three
`numbers of the IPR case number, so if I refer
`to the '866 declaration, I'm referring to
`your declaration in IPR2015-00866. Does that
`make sense to you?
` A. It does.
` Q. So your '866 declaration
`addresses U.S. Patent Number 8,458,341; is
`that correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. I'll call that the '341 patent,
`is that okay?
` A. That would be helpful.
` Q. In -- your '868 declaration
`addresses U.S. Patent Number -- I'll let you
`turn to it if you -- addresses U.S. Patent
`Number 8,516,131. I'll refer to that as the
`'131 patent.
` A. That's correct.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 7
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`Page 7 of 142
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` Q. Your '870 declaration addresses
`U.S. Patent Number 8,560,705. I'll refer to
`that as the '7 -- '0705 patent?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And your '871 declaration
`similarly addresses the '0705 patent,
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Great.
` As far as you are aware, there
`are no substantive differences between the
`specifications of these three patents,
`correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: So the '3 -- '341
` patent and '131 and '705, the -- for
` the most part, sitting here today, I
` believe the specifications are
` similar.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. So you agree --
` A. The claims are different.
` Q. So you agree that although the
`claims are certainly different, the
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 8
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`Page 8 of 142
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`specifications, at least the detailed
`descriptions in these patents, are
`essentially identical, correct?
` A. I wouldn't go as far as saying
`essentially identical. Sitting here today, I
`believe they're -- my recollection is they're
`quite similar.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Sitting here today, are you
`aware of any differences between the detailed
`descriptions in the '341, the '131 and the
`'0705 patents?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: Your question is
` whether or not there are differences
` in embodiments across those three?
` MR. DILLON: Let me re -- let me
` rephrase the question.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. None of your opinions in your
`declarations, those declarations, rely on any
`differences between these patents, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 9
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`Page 9 of 142
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` form.
` THE WITNESS: As I said before,
` I believe that the -- I wouldn't go as
` far as saying they're identical, but I
` believe the specifications are
` similar.
` And so, subject to what's in my
` declaration, I believe, to answer your
` question more directly, there's -- I
` don't rely on any differences, subject
` to what's in the declaration.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Great.
` You have submitted declarations
`related to several others VirnetX patents,
`right?
` A. In the past, that's correct.
` Q. Do your declarations here today
`rely on any differences between the '341, the
`'131 and the '0705 patent compared to those
`other declarations and their patents?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Wow, sitting here
` today, you know, I can't say for sure
`
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 10
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`Page 10 of 142
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` because that's -- you know, there have
` been several months.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. So you're not aware, sitting
`here today, of any differences in the
`specification of the '341, the '131, the
`'0705 patents, and the patents that you've
`previously worked on for VirnetX, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: I think I just
` answered that question by saying,
` sitting here today, I don't recall any
` differences.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. And none of your opinions in
`these declarations rely on any differences
`between these patents and patents you
`submitted declarations related to in the
`past, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Same
` objections.
` THE WITNESS: Again, I think
` you're trying to -- you're asking me
` about maybe subtle differences in
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 11
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` things submitted months ago, and
` sitting here, again, today, I
` cannot give you a definitive answer on
` that.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. You signed each of the four
`declarations we're discussing today, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Did anyone help you prepare
`these declarations?
` A. What do you mean by prepare?
` Q. So the declarations have lots
`of words that were written. They summarize
`presumably your analysis. Did anyone help
`you in preparing the documents that you
`submitted as declarations in these four
`proceedings?
` A. All the opinions expressed in
`these declarations are mine.
` Q. But did anyone help you prepare
`the declarations that were submitted in each
`of these proceedings?
` A. And again, I believe I answered
`your question, that the opinions referenced
`here are my opinions.
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 12
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` Q. I understand that they are your
`opinions. However, I'm asking did anyone
`help you prepare these declarations?
` A. I don't under -- I don't see
`how that's a different question.
` Q. How long did you personally
`spend preparing these four declarations?
` A. Sitting here today, I can't
`tell you for declaration one I spent 20 hours
`versus 30 hours on a different declaration.
`I spent -- the process is look at the -- look
`at the patent, the specifications, the
`claims, what the petitioner has alleged, and
`do an analysis.
` Q. So, sitting here today, you are
`unsure how long you spent preparing these
`four declarations, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form.
` THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say
` that. I said you -- I can't give you
` an exact -- an answer of, you know,
` the declaration for '341 to N hours
` versus, you know, in the past a
` different declaration took N times two
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 13
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` hours.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. How about, how long in
`approximate multiples of 50 hours did you
`personally spend in preparing these four
`declarations?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, my process
` has been to spend extensive time for
` each one of those declarations, to
` look at the patent, look at the
` specifications of the claims, and do
` analysis thereof with respect to what
` the petitioner disclosed.
` In some cases, because, you
` know, because of subtleties in them,
` one might have been 30 hours and I
` can't tell you for sure.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. How about all four declarations
`as an aggregate, about how many hours in
`multiples of approximately 50 hours did you
`spend preparing these four declarations?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
`
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 14
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` form.
` THE WITNESS: A rough -- a rough
` guess is based on where -- whether or
` not -- you know, that's hard to say
` whether or not I can separate. You're
` asking me to separate the time based
` on if I've done a similar analysis in
` the past or just for the proceedings
` right here today?
` MR. DILLON: Just for the
` proceedings right here today.
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, very hard
` to say. It's certainly more than 50
` hours, sitting here, I think. I'm not
` going to guess.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Did you rely on any documents
`when preparing these declarations?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: As specified in
` each one of the declarations it says
` what -- the resources I consulted
`
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`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 15
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` specifically for the declaration.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Were these documents provided
`to you?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Hold on. I'm
` going to instruct the witness not to
` answer to the extent it calls for
` privileged or confidential information
` but, subject to that instruction, you
` may answer.
` THE WITNESS: Again, if you take
` each one of those documents -- each
` one of those declarations, I have -- I
` reviewed the specific patents, their
` claims, the inter partes review, and I
` have also had to consult the Patent
` and Trial Review Board's decision for
` each one of these and whatever other
` exhibits I pointed to.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Did you rely on any of your own
`documents or information when preparing these
`declarations?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 16
`
`Page 16 of 142
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` THE WITNESS: My opinions
` expressed in the declarations are
` based on the resources that I've
` stated in the declarations that were
` consulted.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Did you rely on any documents
`or information not cited in these
`declarations?
` A. To the best of my recollection,
`every resource that I have used here is
`cited.
` Q. These declarations are similar
`to declarations you've prepared regarding our
`VirnetX patents, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: There are related
` matters in other proceedings, that's
` correct.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. So certain issues, you would
`agree, overlap between the declarations we're
`discussing today and declarations that you've
`written in the past, correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 17
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`Page 17 of 142
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` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` (Pause.)
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. These declarations are similar
`to declarations you prepared regarding other
`VirnetX patents, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: So these
` declarations do have some similarities
` to other declarations based on the
` fact that the petitioner argued
` similar things in other declarations.
` Sitting here today, I can't tell you
` which ones.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. So earlier you testified, I
`believe, that you may have had to spend less
`time on these declarations because of their
`similarity to previous declarations. Did I
`get that correct?
` A. No.
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 18
`
`Page 18 of 142
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` THE WITNESS: So maybe you
` misunderstood what -- my answer. I
` said -- you asked about time spent,
` and I said that's very difficult to
` give you a clear delineation based on
` the fact that there are similarities
` that have appeared in the past.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. So you may not have needed to
`spend as much time preparing these
`declarations compared to others, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Again, I can't
` give you an answer with respect to
` whether or not -- and I think I've
` answered this before -- whether or not
` I've spent more or less time on these
` based on similarities that are here.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. How did you prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A. By reviewing my declaration,
`refreshing myself with this patent, the
`specifications, and the claim language.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 19
`
`Page 19 of 142
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` Q. Did you meet with anyone to
`help you prepare?
` A. I -- I met with counsel.
` Q. Whom did you meet with when you
`say "counsel"?
` A. Dan at one point and Joe.
` Q. About how long did you meet
`with Dan and Joe to prepare for this
`deposition?
` A. We briefly met sometime
`today -- sorry, today, Thursday, on Tuesday
`and on Wednesday.
` Q. And you said you looked at some
`documents to prepare for today's deposition,
`correct?
` A. I reviewed what was in my
`declaration to go back and refresh.
` Q. Did you review any other
`documents to prepare for today's deposition?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, in
` reviewing my declaration, that
` involved, if I needed to, I just went
` back and looked at something in -- in
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 20
`
`Page 20 of 142
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` the -- in the patents.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Did you look at any documents
`not of record in these proceedings to prepare
`for today's deposition?
` A. I don't believe that's the
`case.
` THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry?
` THE WITNESS: I did not.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. You have been deposed a number
`of times regarding declarations you've
`submitted on behalf of VirnetX, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: As you stated in
` the beginning, I have been deposed
` before.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Do you recall when you were
`first retained by VirnetX as an expert
`witness or consultant?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form. Scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't recall the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 21
`
`Page 21 of 142
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` exact time, but if memory serves me
` correctly, it might have been sometime
` in the summer of 2013. I don't recall
` off the top of my head.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. But you previously testified
`that you were first retained by VirnetX in
`July of 2014. Do you have reason, sitting
`here today, to believe that testimony was
`wrong?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't recall
` giving that date. Again, I said I'd
` have to go back and look at my notes.
` It coincided with a period when I was
` going on sabbatical so I can't -- I'm
` trying to remember if this is 2013 or
` 2014. I'm sorry I don't recall
` exactly right now.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Have you heard of VirnetX prior
`to being retained as a consultant?
` A. I mean you're asking me about
`something several years ago. In passing,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 22
`
`Page 22 of 142
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`honestly, I don't think I did, but I don't
`recall.
` Q. So, as far as you are aware,
`the first time you heard of VirnetX was in
`July 2014 or 2013, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, sitting
` here today, I can't tell you whether
` or not the first time I heard the
` word -- the company name VirnetX was
` then. I know I had no substantive
` discussions of anything to do with
` VirnetX before that time.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Had you heard of the tunneled
`agile routing protocol before being retained
`by VirnetX?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Are you asking
` whether or not I specifically saw that
` patent before?
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. No. I'm asking, had you heard
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 23
`
`Page 23 of 142
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`of the tunneled agile routing protocol before
`being retained by VirnetX?
` A. No, I don't believe I did.
` Q. So the first time -- sitting
`here today, the first time you heard of the
`tunneled agile routing protocol was in July
`of 2014 or 2013, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection to
` form.
` THE WITNESS: I wouldn't -- the
` first time I examined any patent
` related to TARP was in that time
` period.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Sitting here today, you are not
`aware of hearing about the tunneled agile
`routing protocol before you examined a
`VirnetX patent as part of your consulting
`arrangement with VirnetX, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Again, you're
` asking me stuff many moons ago. I
` don't know what to tell you. I think
` I've answered this. I don't -- I
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 24
`
`Page 24 of 142
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` don't recall.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Okay. Let's turn to your '866
`declaration, paragraph 6. You received a
`Ph.D. in computer science in 1999, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. After you received your Ph.D.,
`you worked for Bell Labs, Lucent
`Technologies, correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And your work at Bell Labs
`focused on internet security technologies,
`right?
` A. I was part of the systems
`security group, that is correct.
` Q. In 2002, you became an adjunct
`professor of computer science for Johns
`Hopkins University, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. You are currently a professor
`of computer science at the University of
`North Carolina Chapel Hill, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Are you currently teaching any
`classes?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 25
`
`Page 25 of 142
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`Page 26
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` A. I am.
` Q. Which classes?
` A. This semester?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Introduction to computer
`security.
` Q. For your introduction to
`computer security class, do you assign any
`textbooks to your students?
` A. Do I assign textbooks. I
`recommend readings. Undergraduate students
`like to have a textbook, but I mostly teach
`off my own notes, but there is -- there are
`recommended readings.
` Q. What textbooks do you recommend
`to your students for your introduction to
`computer security class?
` A. They have changed over the
`years.
` Q. What currently do you recommend
`for students in your introduction to computer
`security class as a textbook?
` A. Again, that class covers many
`topics. I believe that there might be three
`or four recommended textbooks this semester
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 26
`
`Page 26 of 142
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`from what I understand.
` Q. Did you assign a textbook
`coauthored by Dr. Roberto Tamassia to your
`introduction to computer security class this
`semester?
` A. The textbook by Tamassia &
`Goodrich is one of the recommended readings.
` Q. You understand that Apple has
`submitted a declaration from Dr. Tamassia in
`these proceedings, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Have you met Dr. Tamassia?
` A. I don't recall. I may have --
`we probably have seen each other in the same
`conference, but I don't know.
` Q. Did you review his declaration
`that was filed in this proceedings?
` A. I did.
` Q. So you understand that he is
`currently a professor of computer science at
`Brown University, right?
` A. That's right.
` Q. You understand that Apple has
`asserted that Dr. Tamassia is a person of
`ordinary skill in the art, correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 27
`
`Page 27 of 142
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` A. That's correct.
` Q. Do you disagree with Apple's
`assertion that Dr. Tamassia is a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't agree or
` disagree. He is their -- their
` expert.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. You have testified in these
`proceedings what you believe one of ordinary
`skill in the art would have in terms of
`qualifications and education, correct?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Do you disagree with Apple's
`assertion that Dr. Tamassia is a person of
`ordinary skill in the art who would meet
`those qualifications?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Scope.
` THE WITNESS: Sitting here
` today, I see no reason to say that he
` does not meet those qualifications.
`BY MR. DILLON:
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 28
`
`Page 28 of 142
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` Q. Let's look at paragraph 9 of
`your '866 declaration.
` Over the past twelve years you
`have received a number of government grants,
`correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Some of those grants were given
`by the U.S. Department of Defense, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And you are currently on a
`study group for the Defense Advanced Research
`Projects Agency, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Let's turn to paragraph 12 of
`your '866 declaration. You state that your
`CV is appended to your declaration, right?
` A. Uh-huh, that's correct.
` Q. Let's turn to the last page of
`your '866 declaration. Is there a CV
`appended to your '866 declaration?
` A. In this particular filing, I
`may have left it out.
` Q. Were you aware that your
`current CV was not submitted in any of the
`four proceedings we are discussing today?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 29
`
`Page 29 of 142
`
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`Page 30
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` A. My CV was provided.
` Q. Where was it provided?
` A. When I provided the
`declaration.
` Q. Were you aware that your
`current CV, though you may have provided it
`to counsel --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- I'm unaware of that,
`clearly --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- were you aware that your
`current CV was not submitted in any of the
`four proceedings that we are discussing
`today?
` A. I was not aware of that.
` Q. So that was not intentional?
` A. It was not intentional.
` Q. Do you recall that several
`weeks ago you were deposed about your
`declaration submitted in IPR2015-00810, '811
`and '812?
` A. I believe that was the '810,
`'811 and '812, that is correct.
` Q. Your CV was submitted as an
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple v. VirnetX, IPR2015-00866
`Petitioner Apple Inc. - Exhibit 1070, p. 30
`
`Page 30 of 142
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`attachment to the declarations you submitted
`in those three proceedings. If I wanted to
`review a recent copy of your CV --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- I could look at the one you
`submitted in IPR2015-00810, correct?
` A. I think they are very similar.
`It's been a few months, but I believe they
`are very similar.
` Q. Let's turn to paragraph 1 of
`your '866 declaration. Your '866 declaration
`involves the '341 patent, correct?
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Objection.
` Form.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah, it involves
` patent '341.
`BY MR. DILLON:
` Q. Let's turn to paragraph 19 of
`your '866 declaration. In paragraph 19 --
` I'll start again. Are you
`there?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. In paragraph 19 you state that
`"a virtual p
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