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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · ·-----------------------------
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`·3· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · ·-----------------------------
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`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · ARISTA NETWORKS, INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · ·CISCO SYSTEMS, INC.
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`10· · · · · · · -----------------------------
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`11· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2016-00309
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent 7,224,668
`12
`· · · · · · · · -----------------------------
`13
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`14
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`15· · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF DR. BILL LIN
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`16
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`17· · · · · · Monday, August 23, 2016, 10:05 a.m.
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`18
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`19· · · · · · ·12390 El Camino Real, 3rd Floor
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`20· · · · · · · · · ·San Diego, California
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`21
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`22
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`23· ·Reported by:
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`24· ·Harry Alan Palter
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`25· ·CSR No. 7708, Certified LiveNote Reporter
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
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`Exhibit 2005
`IPR2016-00309
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
`·2
`·3· ·For Arista Networks, Inc.:
`·4· · · · · · ·FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· RALPH A. PHILLIPS
`·5· · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · ·1425 K Street, N.W., 11th Floor
`·6· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005-3500
`· · · · · · · ·202.783.5070· ·Fax 202.783.2331
`·7· · · · · · ·E-mail:· rphillips@fr.com
`·8
`· · ·For Cisco Systems, Inc.:
`·9
`· · · · · · · ·STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN FOX
`10· · · · · · ·BY:· LORI A. GORDON
`· · · · · · · · · · DANIEL BLOCK
`11· · · · · · ·Attorneys at Law
`· · · · · · · ·1100 New York Avenue, NW
`12· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005
`· · · · · · · ·202.371.2600· ·Fax 202.371.2540
`13· · · · · · ·E-mail:· lgordon@skgf.com
`· · · · · · · · · · · · dblock@skgf.com
`14
`· · ·and
`15
`· · · · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP
`16· · · · · · ·BY:· ROBERT KANG
`· · · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
`17· · · · · · ·555 California Street
`· · · · · · · ·San Francisco, California 94104
`18· · · · · · ·415.439.1400· ·Fax 415.439.1500
`· · · · · · · ·E-mail:· robert.kang@kirkland.com
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·DR. BILL LIN
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`2 to 5
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`Page 4
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`·3· · · Arista Networks, Inc. Vs. Cisco Systems, Inc.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · Monday, August 23, 2016
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`·5· · · · · · · Harry Alan Palter, CSR No. 7708
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`·6
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`·7· ·MARKED· · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·8· ·Exhibit Paper 1· ·Petition for Inter· · · · · · ·113
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Partes Review of United
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·States Patent No.
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·7,224,668 Pursuant to
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·35 U.S.C. Section
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·311-319, 37 C.F.R.
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`11· · · · · · · · · · ·Section 42
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`12· ·Exhibit 1001· · · U.S. Patent No.· · · · · · · · ·85
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·7,224,668 B1
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`13
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`· · ·Exhibit 1002· · · Declaration of Bill Lin· · · · ·46
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`14
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`· · ·Exhibit 1004· · · U.S. Patent No.· · · · · · · · 102
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`15· · · · · · · · · · ·6,674,743 B1
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`16· ·Exhibit 1007· · · U.S. Patent No.· · · · · · · · 161
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·6,115,378
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`17
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`· · ·Exhibit 1009· · · 3Com CoreBuilder 3500· · · · · 135
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`18· · · · · · · · · · ·Implementation Guide
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`19
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`20· · · · · · · ·(cid:129)__________________________(cid:129)
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
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`Page 5
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·2
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`·3· · ·APPEARANCES· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·2
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`·3· · ·MARKED QUESTIONS:
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`·4· · ·PROCEEDINGS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·6
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`·4· · ·Page 58, line 13
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`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`·7
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`·5· · ·Page 115, line 5
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`·6· · ·Page 115, line 17
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · WITNESS:· DR. BILL LIN
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`·8· · · · · · · ·(cid:129)__________________________(cid:129)
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`·9
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`10· · ·EXAMINATION OF:
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`11· · ·DR. BILL LIN
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`12· · · BY MS. GORDON· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6
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`13
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`14· · ·WITNESS DECLARATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·187
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`15· · ·DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET· · · · · · · · · · · ·188
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`16· · ·REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE· · · · · · · · · · · · 189
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`17
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`18· · · · · · · ·(cid:129)__________________________(cid:129)
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`6 to 9
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·San Diego, California
`·2· · · · · · Monday, August 23, 2016; 10:05 a.m.
`·3
`·4
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·DR. BILL LIN,
`·6· ·having been duly administered an oath in accordance
`·7· ·with Code of Civil Procedure Section 2094, was
`·8· ·examined and testified as follows:
`·9
`10
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`12· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`13· · · · Q· · ·Good morning.· Could you please state
`14· ·your full name for the record.
`15· · · · A· · ·Bill Lin.
`16· · · · Q· · ·Thank you.· And Dr. Lin, you understand
`17· ·that you are here today regarding the testimony you
`18· ·submitted by Declaration in December of 2015 in the
`19· ·United States Patent and Trademark Office in a party
`20· ·review of U.S. patent No. 7,224,668?
`21· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q· · ·And for purposes of today's deposition,
`23· ·is it okay if we refer to that patent as the "'668
`24· ·patent"?
`25· · · · A· · ·Yes.
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`Page 8
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`·1· ·Declaration for the present proceeding?
`·2· · · · A· · ·No.
`·3· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And you didn't read either of the
`·4· ·institution decisions before you prepared the
`·5· ·Declarations for the present proceeding?
`·6· · · · A· · ·I didn't read any institution decisions
`·7· ·before I prepared the Declaration.
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And when did you read the
`·9· ·institution decisions for those other two cases?
`10· · · · A· · ·I don't think I've ever read those.· But
`11· ·for this one, I read it, maybe, a couple weeks ago.
`12· · · · Q· · ·Okay.
`13· · · · A· · ·For the third one only.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And that was in preparation for
`15· ·today's deposition?
`16· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q· · ·And you read only the institution
`18· ·decision for the third proceeding; is that correct?
`19· · · · A· · ·Correct.
`20· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So you haven't read the
`21· ·institution decisions for the first two?
`22· · · · A· · ·I have not.
`23· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· But do you understand that those
`24· ·proceedings were not instituted?
`25· · · · A· · ·That's my understanding.
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · Q· · ·Thank you.
`·2· · · · · · · And I know we've been sitting across the
`·3· ·table from each other several times, so I know this
`·4· ·is not your first deposition.· But just to remind
`·5· ·you of some ground rules:· If you need a break at
`·6· ·any time during this deposition, just let your
`·7· ·attorneys know.· When we finish the question, we can
`·8· ·certainly take a break for you.
`·9· · · · · · · Is there any reason you cannot give
`10· ·truthful and complete testimony today?
`11· · · · A· · ·No.
`12· · · · Q· · ·So, Dr. Lin, the Declaration you
`13· ·submitted in December of 2015 was not the first
`14· ·Declaration you did on the '668 patent; is that
`15· ·correct?
`16· · · · A· · ·Correct.
`17· · · · Q· · ·How many other Declarations did you do on
`18· ·the '668 patent?
`19· · · · A· · ·Two other ones.
`20· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And do you know what the results
`21· ·of the proceedings related to those two cases were?
`22· · · · A· · ·I read the board institution decision, so
`23· ·I guess they were not instituted.
`24· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And did you read the board
`25· ·institution decisions before you prepared the
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And was that understanding
`·2· ·provided to you by your attorneys -- or the
`·3· ·attorney, I should say?
`·4· · · · A· · ·I'm not sure.· I'm not sure.· But I
`·5· ·gathered from reading the institution decision for
`·6· ·the third one, the first two were not instituted.
`·7· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Thank you.
`·8· · · · · · · I'll just start by just asking you some
`·9· ·terminology questions so we're on the same page for
`10· ·today's deposition.
`11· · · · · · · Dr. Lin, what is a port?
`12· · · · A· · ·I think, generally, a port is simply
`13· ·something that data passes through.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And would that definition change
`15· ·if I asked you:· What is a port on a router?
`16· · · · A· · ·I don't -- I don't think so, but I would
`17· ·have to look at specific instance.
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Do you understand what a rout -- a
`19· ·port on a router is, generally?
`20· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`21· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And how would you define a router
`22· ·port, generally?
`23· · · · A· · ·Again, a port is -- to me, can be defined
`24· ·as something that data passes through.
`25· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So a port on a router would be the
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`10 to 13
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`·1· ·same as a port on a switch?
`·2· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`·3· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And how many ports does a typical
`·4· ·router have today?
`·5· · · · A· · ·I -- I think it varies substantially.
`·6· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So what's the lowest number you've
`·7· ·seen for a router?
`·8· · · · A· · ·I mean, two?
`·9· · · · Q· · ·Two?
`10· · · · · · · And what is the most you've seen a router
`11· ·have today?
`12· · · · A· · ·Oh, I think they're in the thousands.
`13· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what's the average?
`14· · · · A· · ·I don't think there's such a thing.
`15· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And why is there not such a thing?
`16· · · · A· · ·Well, I -- I don't know -- I don't know
`17· ·what the average is.
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what would the number of ports
`19· ·a router have depend on?
`20· · · · A· · ·What do you mean?
`21· · · · Q· · ·Like, how would you determine how many
`22· ·ports you would need in a router?
`23· · · · A· · ·Well --
`24· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`25· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
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`Page 12
`·1· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`·2· ·Compound.
`·3· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean, when a
`·4· ·company sells a router, the router that's -- that
`·5· ·the company is selling has a particular number of
`·6· ·external ports.
`·7· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And so if you're designing a
`·9· ·communications system, how would you decide what
`10· ·router to buy, based on the number of ports?
`11· · · · A· · ·If I were a buyer of a router --
`12· · · · Q· · ·Right.
`13· · · · A· · ·-- I would buy the one with the number of
`14· ·external ports that I need to connect to other
`15· ·things.
`16· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And so -- so you're looking at the
`17· ·number of ports you need to connect to other things.
`18· · · · · · · So what factors would go into the number
`19· ·of ports you would need for a router if you were
`20· ·designing a system?
`21· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`22· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think it just depends on
`24· ·what the -- what's the buyer -- what the buyer
`25· ·wants.
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`Page 11
`·1· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Are you talking about
`·2· ·external ports?
`·3· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·4· · · · Q· · ·The ports to the router.· They're
`·5· ·receiving data from --
`·6· · · · A· · ·You mean, external to the router?
`·7· · · · Q· · ·Correct.
`·8· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Same objections.
`·9· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· What is your question
`10· ·again?
`11· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`12· · · · Q· · ·So my question is:· How would a person
`13· ·determine how many external ports they would need
`14· ·for a router?
`15· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Same objection.
`16· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't understand the
`17· ·question.
`18· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`19· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So you're designing a
`20· ·communication system, and you need routers.· You
`21· ·understand that?
`22· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`23· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And you need to decide how many
`24· ·ports to use for a router or -- or which router and
`25· ·how many ports that router has; correct?
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`·1· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·2· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And does a port need to be a
`·3· ·physical connection?
`·4· · · · A· · ·No.
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And why not?
`·6· · · · A· · ·The -- the word "port" in the context of
`·7· ·networking has been used fairly broadly.
`·8· · · · Q· · ·And in what other ways, then, does it
`·9· ·need to be a physical connection?
`10· · · · A· · ·It can, for example, be a logical
`11· ·connection.
`12· · · · Q· · ·And what do you mean by a logical
`13· ·connection?
`14· · · · A· · ·I think a port can be broadly defined as
`15· ·something that data passes through.· And a logical
`16· ·port could be some logical entity where data passes
`17· ·through.
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And you've heard of the term
`19· ·"switch"; correct?
`20· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`21· · · · Q· · ·And do switches have ports?
`22· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`23· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And can you connect switches to
`24· ·routers?
`25· · · · A· · ·Yes.
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`14 to 17
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`Page 14
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`·1· · · · Q· · ·So how would a person decide the
`·2· ·distribution of ports between switches and routers?
`·3· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`·4· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
`·5· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't understand the
`·6· ·question.
`·7· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·8· · · · Q· · ·So how would a person decide how many
`·9· ·ports they would need to interface between a switch
`10· ·and a router?
`11· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Same objections.
`12· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Again, I'm not sure I
`13· ·understand the question.· I'm not -- I'm not a
`14· ·buyer, per se, so, I mean, I think a buyer would
`15· ·just buy one with as many external ports that he or
`16· ·she feels is appropriate for their application.
`17· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`18· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what types of applications
`19· ·would you use a router for?
`20· · · · A· · ·There's a very wide range.
`21· · · · Q· · ·Can you name some of those applications?
`22· · · · A· · ·So my house, I have a home router.
`23· · · · Q· · ·Okay.
`24· · · · A· · ·And I bought one with four external
`25· ·ports.· And no particular reason.· Just in case I
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`Page 16
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what specific routers are you
`·2· ·referring to that have thousands of ports?
`·3· · · · A· · ·I'm not referring to --
`·4· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`·5· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· -- any specific one.
`·6· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·7· · · · Q· · ·So you don't know of any particular
`·8· ·vendors that offer a router with thousands of ports?
`·9· · · · A· · ·Not on top of my head.
`10· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Have you ever personally seen a
`11· ·router with thousands of ports?
`12· · · · A· · ·I have not.· But I have written papers
`13· ·about routers with thousands of ports.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Was that about the theoretical ability
`15· ·for a router to have thousands of ports?
`16· · · · A· · ·They're not theoretical.
`17· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So you were aware of actual
`18· ·products that had thousands of ports?
`19· · · · A· · ·I cannot -- I do not know, right now,
`20· ·sitting here, on top of my head what routers would
`21· ·have thousands of ports.
`22· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And are you familiar with a router
`23· ·with multiple linecards?
`24· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`25· · · · Q· · ·And did the system with a thousand ports
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`·1· ·need it.
`·2· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what if you were a network
`·3· ·service provider --
`·4· · · · A· · ·Okay.
`·5· · · · Q· · ·-- how would you determine how many ports
`·6· ·you would want on your individual routers?
`·7· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`·8· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
`·9· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Again, I -- it -- you know,
`10· ·the -- the network service provider may buy switches
`11· ·and routers with different number of external ports.
`12· ·It's up to them.
`13· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`14· · · · Q· · ·You mentioned earlier that you were aware
`15· ·of routers with a thousand ports; correct?
`16· · · · A· · ·There can be, yes.
`17· · · · Q· · ·And in what applications are those
`18· ·routers used?
`19· · · · A· · ·For example, with network providers.
`20· · · · Q· · ·And what network providers would use a
`21· ·router with a thousand ports?
`22· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The -- for example, people
`24· ·in the -- people providing Internet service.
`25· ·BY MS. GORDON:
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`·1· ·use multiple linecards?
`·2· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Mis --
`·3· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Possibly.
`·4· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Keep your voice up,
`·5· ·Mr. Phillips, please.
`·6· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Will do, sir.
`·7· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·8· · · · Q· · ·You said, "possibly."· Why did you say,
`·9· ·"possibly"?
`10· · · · A· · ·I don't understand the question.
`11· · · · · · · I've already explained that I understand
`12· ·that there are routers with -- with many ports.· And
`13· ·there are routers with linecards.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Right.· And I asked -- you said there was
`15· ·a system with a thousand ports.· And I asked you
`16· ·whether that system with a thousand ports used
`17· ·multiple linecards.· And you answered, "Possibly."
`18· ·And I was wondering why you said, "Possibly" instead
`19· ·of answering "yes" or "no."
`20· · · · A· · ·Because the design of switches and
`21· ·routers is an evolving art.
`22· · · · Q· · ·Okay.
`23· · · · A· · ·So I -- I -- my -- I have the
`24· ·understanding that there are routers that use
`25· ·linecards.
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`18 to 21
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`Page 18
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Right.· I'm asking about the paper you
`·2· ·wrote where you said you looked at routers with
`·3· ·thousands of ports.
`·4· · · · · · · And did those routers with thousands of
`·5· ·ports use multiple linecards?
`·6· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`·7· · · · Q· · ·They did.· Okay.
`·8· · · · · · · Are you aware of any thousand-port
`·9· ·switches that did not use multiple linecards?
`10· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`11· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I -- I don't know,
`12· ·specifically.· But companies like Google design
`13· ·their own switch fabrics.
`14· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`15· · · · Q· · ·So the answer, then, is, you are not
`16· ·aware of any thousand-port routers that did not
`17· ·use -- let me ask that again.
`18· · · · · · · So I asked you are you aware of any
`19· ·thousand-port routers that didn't use multiple
`20· ·linecards.
`21· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Same
`22· ·objection.
`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I'm not quite sure.
`24· ·So, again, companies like Google designs very large
`25· ·switches.· And I don't work with Google, so I don't
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`Page 20
`·1· · · · A· · ·No.· I'm not saying that.· I'm saying
`·2· ·that a linecard can simply contain only interface to
`·3· ·external -- to external wires.
`·4· · · · Q· · ·Right.· And so how does that relate to
`·5· ·the answer to the question about whether you're
`·6· ·aware of any thousand-port switches that did not use
`·7· ·multiple linecards?
`·8· · · · A· · ·Well, I guess if we define "linecards" to
`·9· ·be broadly enough to contain, for example, only
`10· ·connections to external ports, then it's -- then I
`11· ·agree that if a router would have a thousand ports,
`12· ·there could be separate linecards that connect to a
`13· ·different subset of ports -- external ports.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Routers.
`15· · · · · · · Is your answer the same for a switch?
`16· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So are you aware of any switches
`18· ·that had a thousand ports that did not use multiple
`19· ·linecards?
`20· · · · A· · ·Not --
`21· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`22· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· -- as I sit here right now.
`23· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`24· · · · Q· · ·Going back to the question, what is your
`25· ·understanding of a switch engine?
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`Page 19
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`·1· ·know how they actually do it.
`·2· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·3· · · · Q· · ·So -- I'm going to ask you about your
`·4· ·personal knowledge.
`·5· · · · · · · So are you personally aware of any
`·6· ·thousand-port routers that did not use multiple
`·7· ·linecards?
`·8· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`·9· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not aware.
`10· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Dr. Lin, what is a switch engine?
`12· · · · A· · ·In what context?
`13· · · · Q· · ·So -- let me strike that and ask you one
`14· ·more question.
`15· · · · · · · Are you aware of any thousand-port
`16· ·switches that did not use multiple linecards?
`17· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`18· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
`19· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I think one place
`20· ·right now is -- "linecards" is also a fairly broad
`21· ·word.· So linecards could simply contain interfaces
`22· ·to external -- to external wires.
`23· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`24· · · · Q· · ·And you're saying interface to an
`25· ·external wire is not a port?
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`Page 21
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`·1· · · · A· · ·In what context?
`·2· · · · Q· · ·Are you familiar with the term "switch
`·3· ·engine"?
`·4· · · · A· · ·Yes.
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· In what context are you familiar
`·6· ·with that term?
`·7· · · · A· · ·I'm asking a question:· Are you asking me
`·8· ·about switch engine with respect to what '668
`·9· ·describes?
`10· · · · Q· · ·Right.· And I asked you a question:· In
`11· ·what context are you familiar with the term "switch
`12· ·engine"?
`13· · · · A· · ·I think switch engine is one of these
`14· ·words that are so general that it can mean many
`15· ·different things.
`16· · · · Q· · ·And what, in general, is a switch engine?
`17· · · · A· · ·It would at least incorporate some
`18· ·capability of moving data from one port to another
`19· ·port.
`20· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And you said, "It would at least
`21· ·incorporate."· Are there other things it would
`22· ·incorporate?
`23· · · · A· · ·In -- it can include -- well, if you look
`24· ·at the '668 patent, it includes, also, elements for
`25· ·doing port services, for example.
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`22 to 25
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`Page 22
`·1· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And so you're -- would a switch
`·2· ·engine in general include elements for doing port
`·3· ·services?
`·4· · · · A· · ·I don't think it has to.
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· So other than moving data from one
`·6· ·port to another, are there any other elements that a
`·7· ·general switch engine would perform?
`·8· · · · A· · ·As I just said, it could perform various
`·9· ·type of packet services.
`10· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what types of packet services
`11· ·would a switch engine perform?
`12· · · · A· · ·As I said, the word "switch engine" is
`13· ·fairly broad.· It doesn't have to include packet
`14· ·services, but it can.
`15· · · · Q· · ·Right.· And I'm trying to understand when
`16· ·you say, "packet services," what do you mean by that
`17· ·term?· What are you including?· The term "packet
`18· ·services"?
`19· · · · A· · ·Packet services could include packet
`20· ·classification.· It could include rules for what to
`21· ·do with the packet, depending on types.
`22· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· Okay.
`23· · · · · · · So it's your opinion for something to be
`24· ·considered a switch engine, it must at least have
`25· ·the ability to perform packet forwarding?
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`Page 24
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`·1· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·2· · · · Q· · ·And what context would it depend on?
`·3· · · · A· · ·It would have to depend on -- I'm not
`·4· ·sure it depends on anything, but you will find
`·5· ·plenty of literature that talks about switches and
`·6· ·routers that never mention the term "centralized
`·7· ·switch engine."
`·8· · · · Q· · ·And is there literature that does mention
`·9· ·the term "centralized switch engine"?
`10· · · · A· · ·Not specifically -- top of my head right
`11· ·now, I can't think of any particular ones.· But I do
`12· ·know that '668 talks about centralized switch
`13· ·engine.
`14· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And have you heard the term
`15· ·"centralized switch engine" outside of the '668
`16· ·patent?
`17· · · · A· · ·Not in that way, no.
`18· · · · Q· · ·You say, "Not in that way."· What way are
`19· ·you talking about?
`20· · · · A· · ·I have heard of switch engines, I have
`21· ·heard of switches, but I haven't particularly used,
`22· ·myself, the term "centralized switch engine."
`23· · · · Q· · ·Have you heard others use the term
`24· ·"centralized switch engine"?
`25· · · · A· · ·I might have.
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`Page 23
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`·1· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.
`·2· ·Mischaracterization.
`·3· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, as I said earlier, a
`·4· ·switch engine should at least have the capability of
`·5· ·switching packet from one -- one -- one port to
`·6· ·another port.
`·7· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·8· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And when you say, "switching," is
`·9· ·that -- would that be considered packet forwarding?
`10· · · · A· · ·It would be considered moving the packet
`11· ·from one port to another port.
`12· · · · Q· · ·But how is that different from packet
`13· ·forwarding?
`14· · · · A· · ·I guess you can also call that "packet
`15· ·forwarding."
`16· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what is a centralized switch
`17· ·engine?
`18· · · · A· · ·Again, it -- are you asking in the
`19· ·context of '668?
`20· · · · Q· · ·Let's start with the general.
`21· · · · · · · When -- in general, what is your
`22· ·understanding of a centralized switch engine?
`23· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Foundation.
`24· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I think that's
`25· ·context-dependent.
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`Page 25
`·1· · · · Q· · ·You don't recall, sitting here today?
`·2· · · · A· · ·I don't remember.
`·3· · · · Q· · ·And so if you haven't heard the term
`·4· ·"centralized switch engine" outside of the '668
`·5· ·patent, then how does its use depend on its context?
`·6· · · · A· · ·I didn't say I have not heard.· You're
`·7· ·asking me for references of where I've heard this,
`·8· ·and I cannot think of it on top of my head.
`·9· · · · · · · What I said earlier was, looking at
`10· ·different literature about switches and routers, the
`11· ·term "centralized switch engine" does not
`12· ·necessarily come up.· I didn't say I've never seen
`13· ·it; I just can't recall an example right now.
`14· · · · Q· · ·But I think I actually have asked you
`15· ·that question precisely.· I said:· Have you ever
`16· ·heard the term "centralized switch engine" used
`17· ·outside of the '668 patent?
`18· · · · · · · So I'm asking you again:· Have you ever
`19· ·heard the term "centralized switch engine" used
`20· ·outside of the '668 patent?
`21· · · · A· · ·I might have.
`22· · · · Q· · ·And sitting here today, you can't recall
`23· ·hearing the term "centralized switch engine" used
`24· ·outside of the '668 patent?
`25· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`26 to 29
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`Page 26
`·1· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I cannot think of an
`·2· ·example.
`·3· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Mischaracterization.
`·4· ·Asked and answered.· Sorry.
`·5· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·6· · · · Q· · ·I'm not asking you to give an example.
`·7· ·I'm asking you whether you have heard the term
`·8· ·"centralized switch engine" used outside of the '668
`·9· ·patent.
`10· · · · A· · ·I -- I believe I have -- I probably have.
`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· All right.
`12· · · · · · · And have you ever heard the term
`13· ·"distributed switch engine" used outside of the '668
`14· ·patent?
`15· · · · A· · ·I don't recall right now.
`16· · · · Q· · ·And are you saying you don't recall
`17· ·seeing an example of it, or you don't recall ever
`18· ·having heard the term "distributed switch engine"?
`19· · · · A· · ·Again, the -- the notion of distributing
`20· ·switching function, I -- I -- I have seen and heard.
`21· ·Whether they were called specifically "distributed
`22· ·switch engines," I don't recall.
`23· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· All right.
`24· · · · · · · So is a distributed switch engine, then,
`25· ·something that distributes switching functions?
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`Page 28
`·1· ·"switch engine" means.· I think it should at least
`·2· ·include packet forwarding, but it may include a
`·3· ·number of other packet-service functions.
`·4· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·5· · · · Q· · ·Right.· And how would you determine
`·6· ·whether to put another packet-service function into
`·7· ·a switch engine if you were designing a switch
`·8· ·engine?
`·9· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`10· ·Incomplete hypothetical.
`11· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think your question is a
`12· ·terminology question, and I'm saying that the
`13· ·term -- the term is not -- is not strictly defined.
`14· ·It has a range of meaning.· So if you're asking me
`15· ·about what "switch engine" means in the '668 patent,
`16· ·I can give you an opinion.· But if you're asking me
`17· ·what general means, I will simply say that it has a
`18· ·wide range of meanings.
`19· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`20· · · · Q· · ·You would agree there's no universal
`21· ·definition on what a switch engine includes?
`22· · · · A· · ·I think it -- I think it can include, you
`23· ·know -- it -- it can include functions like
`24· ·packet-forwarding, and it could include functions
`25· ·like packet services, but I don't think I want to
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`Page 27
`·1· · · · A· · ·So to me, as I answered earlier, a switch
`·2· ·engine is a -- you know, a switch or switch engine
`·3· ·is a fairly broad term.· It -- it can -- it should
`·4· ·at least include the packet-forwarding function, but
`·5· ·it may include other packet-services function.
`·6· · · · · · · So -- so when you -- so to me, when -- my
`·7· ·understanding of the '668 patent, when it talks
`·8· ·about distributed switch engines, is distributed
`·9· ·whatever the function of the switch engine is over
`10· ·multiple components.
`11· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And how would you determine what
`12· ·functions a switch engine performs?
`13· · · · A· · ·I would have -- I would have to have a
`14· ·context to answer that question.
`15· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· And what types of context would
`16· ·determine what functions a switch engine performs?
`17· · · · A· · ·If we're talking about '668 patent, I can
`18· ·tell you what -- what my read on the '668 patent is.
`19· · · · Q· · ·I'm talking about in general.· If you
`20· ·were designing a switch engine, how would you
`21· ·determine what functions to put in the switch
`22· ·engine?
`23· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.
`24· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· As I said, I don't believe
`25· ·there's a universal agreement as to what the term
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`Page 29
`·1· ·characterize it in a more general way.· But I can
`·2· ·tell you what my read is on the '668 patent.
`·3· · · · Q· · ·But I think you testified earlier that a
`·4· ·switch engine does not have to include packet
`·5· ·services; correct?
`·6· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.
`·7· ·Mischaracterization.
`·8· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I testified earlier that
`·9· ·the term can be -- can be broad enough to include
`10· ·it.
`11· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`12· · · · Q· · ·Right.· But my question is that the term
`13· ·"switch engine" does not have to include packet
`14· ·services; correct?
`15· · · · A· · ·I'm not quite sure the -- I'm not quite
`16· ·sure of your question, because the opinions I've
`17· ·expressed are relative to the '668 patent.
`18· · · · Q· · ·Right.· So I'm asking in general, based
`19· ·on your knowledge, does a switch engine have to
`20· ·include packet services?
`21· · · · A· · ·Again, I -- I -- I think the terminology
`22· ·"switch engine" has been used in different places to
`23· ·mean different things.· If you ask -- so I have not
`24· ·opined on that.
`25· · · · · · · If you ask me if I've expressed opinion
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`Dr. Bill Lin Dr. Bill Lin
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`August 23, 2016August 23, 2016
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`30 to 33
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`Page 30
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`·1· ·on '668 patent, I have.
`·2· · · · Q· · ·Okay.· I'm asking you as an expert in the
`·3· ·field, in general, does a switch engine have to
`·4· ·include packet services?
`·5· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Objection.· Scope.· Asked
`·6· ·and answered.
`·7· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think it can.
`·8· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`·9· · · · Q· · ·I'm not asking you whether it can.· I'm
`10· ·asking you whether it has to include packet services
`11· ·to be a switch engine?
`12· · · · · · · MR. PHILLIPS:· Same objections.
`13· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think it's possible that
`14· ·other people have used the term "switch engine" to
`15· ·mean just the packet-forwarding function.
`16· ·BY MS. GORDON:
`17· · · · Q· · ·So you would agree that a device with
`18· ·just a packet-forwarding function could be a switch
`19· ·engine?
`20· · · · A· · ·I do -- I do not agree that's what the
`21· ·'668 says.
`22· · · · Q· · ·I'm not asking what you the '668 patent
`23· ·says.
`24· · · · · · · I'm asking you, in general, do you agree
`25· ·that