`August 22, 2016
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`------------------- I N D E X -------------------
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`WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
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`SCOTT SERELS, M.D. MS. DONOVAN 7, 215
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` MS. MATERASSI 195
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`---------------- E X H I B I T S ----------------
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`JANSSEN DESCRIPTION FOR I.D.
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`Exhibit 2028 Patent Owner's Notice of
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` Deposition of Scott R.
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` Serels, M.D. 5
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`Exhibit 2029 Curriculum Vitae 5
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`Exhibit 2030 Jubelirer Article 137
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`Exhibit 2031 O'Donnell Article with
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` handwritten notations 154
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`----------- PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS ----------
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`AMERIGEN
`
`Exhibit 1001 US Patent 8.822,438 41
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`Exhibit 1002 Declaration of Scott R.
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` Serels, M.D. 10
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`-------------------------------------------X
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`AMERIGEN PHARMACEUTICALS LIMITED,
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` Petitioner,
`
` -against-
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`JANSSEN ONCOLOGY, INC.,
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` Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2016-00286
`
`-------------------------------------------X
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` 787 Seventh Avenue
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` New York, New York
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` August 22, 2016
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` 9:23 a.m.
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` DEPOSITION of SCOTT SERELS, M.D., taken
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`before Sadie L. Herbert, a Registered
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`Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the
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`States of New York and New Jersey.
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`Exhibit 1003 O'Donnell Article 72
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`Exhibit 1004 Gerber Article 156
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`Exhibit 1005 US Patent 5,604,213 148
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`Exhibit 1020 Harris Article 119
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`Exhibit 1021 Oh Article 140
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`Page 4
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`------ PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS (Cont'd) ------
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`AMERIGEN DESCRIPTION FOR I.D.
`
`Exhibit 1028 Jubelirer Abstract 132
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` (EXHIBITS TO BE PRODUCED)
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` THE MCS GROUP, INC.
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` 1601 Market Street, 8th Floor
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` Philadelphia, PA 19103
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` (215) 405-8178
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`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`MCNEELY, HARE & WAR LLP
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER
` 12 Roszel Road, Suite C104
` Princeton, New Jersey 08540
`BY: GABRIELA MATERASSI, ESQ.
` Materassi@miplaw.com
` Phone 347.400.1154
` WILLIAM D. HARE, ESQ.
` Bill@miplaw.com
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`SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER
` 787 Seventh Avenue
` New York, New York 10019
`BY: BINDU DONOVAN, ESQ.
` Bdonovan@sidley.com
` Phone 212.839.5696
` ALYSSA B. MONSEN, ESQ.
` Amonsen@sidley.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` JENNIFER REDA, Johnson & Johnson
` TOM DEVINE, Videographer
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`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`1 (Pages 1 to 4)
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`JANSSEN EXHIBIT 2037
`Amerigen v. Janssen IPR2016-00286
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`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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`Page 5
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`Page 7
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` Johnson & Johnson representing
` Janssen Oncology.
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`SCOTT SERELS, M.D., the witness herein, having
` first been duly sworn by a Notary Public
` of the State of New York, was examined and
` testified as follows:
` MS. DONOVAN: Just before we
` start, I'd just like to state on
` the record, I've marked Dr. Hare --
` the notice of deposition that we
` served for Dr. Hare as Janssen
` Exhibit 2028.
` MR. HARE: Serels.
` MS. DONOVAN: Okay. Serels.
` THE WITNESS: Serels.
` MS. DONOVAN: I apologize. I'm
` not going to ask any questions, but
` I just wanted it on the record.
` MR. HARE: Sure.
` CROSS-EXAMINATION
`BY MS. DONOVAN:
` Q Dr. Serels, please could you state
`your full name for the record.
` A Scott Serels.
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` (Janssen Exhibit 2028, Patent
` Owner's Notice of Deposition of
` Scott R. Serels, M.D., was
` marked for identification.)
` (Janssen Exhibit 2029,
` Curriculum Vitae, was marked
` for identification.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good
` morning. We are now on the record.
` Today's date is August 22nd, 2016,
` and the time is approximately
` 9:23 a.m.
` We are located at the offices
` of Sidley Austin LLP located at 787
` 7th Avenue, New York, New York.
` We are taking the deposition of
` Dr. Scott Serels for an inter
` partes review proceeding in the
` matter of Amerigen Pharmaceuticals
` Limited V Janssen Oncology --
` Oncology, Incorporated before the
` U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
` before the Patent Trial and Appeal
` Board, case number IPR 2016-00286.
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` My name is Thomas Devine and I
` am the legal video specialist with
` Deitz Reporting. The court
` reporter is Sadie Herbert, also
` with Deitz Reporting.
` At this time, I would like to
` ask the attorneys present to please
` introduce themselves for the video
` record, please state your name, the
` firm with which you are affiliated
` and whom you represent, after which
` the court reporter will swear in
` the witness and we may proceed.
` MS. DONOVAN: Bindu Donovan
` with Sidley Austin representing
` patent owner, Janssen Oncology Inc.
` And with me is my colleague, Alyssa
` Monsen.
` MS. MATERASSI: Gabriela
` Materassi of McNeely, Hare & War
` LLP representing petitioner,
` Amerigen Pharmaceuticals Limited.
` With me is my colleague, William
` Hare.
` MS. REDA: Jennifer Reda with
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` Q And what is your home address?
` A 9 North Ridge Road in Westford,
`Connecticut.
` Q Okay. And have you had your
`deposition taken before today, sir?
` A Yes, not in this case, but other
`cases.
` Q Have you had it taken previously in
`a patent infringement proceeding?
` A Yes.
` Q Could you tell me which proceeding
`that was?
` A I don't have the exact docket
`number, but it was a case involving an
`overactive bladder medication, used to treat
`problems with urinary incontinence.
` Q And were you testifying as an
`expert witness in that case?
` A I was.
` Q And other than that case, have you
`testified in any other patent infringement
`proceeding?
` A No.
` Q And did -- in that patent
`infringement case that you mentioned, did
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`2 (Pages 5 to 8)
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`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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`you also testify at trial?
` A I did.
` Q Do you remember the name of the
`medication?
` A I believe it was tolterodine.
` Q Okay. And other than this patent
`infringement case, can you just describe,
`have you been deposed in other matters?
` A Yes.
` Q How many times?
` A To give you a rough number,
`probably four or five times a year.
` Q And could you generally describe
`the nature of those matters?
` A Those matters are usually related
`to medical devices or medical malpractice.
` Q And have you also previously, other
`than this patent case, testified at trial?
` A No.
` Q Okay. So you're generally familiar
`with the deposition procedure. I'll just
`remind you, if you don't understand a
`question, please let me know and I will
`rephrase it for you. And if you don't ask
`me to rephrase a question, I'm going to
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`ago.
` Q And who approached you?
` A Bill Hare.
` Q Okay. And about how many in-person
`meetings did you have with your attorneys
`related to the preparation of your
`declaration?
` A In person, before today, none.
` Q Did you have teleconferences with
`them?
` A We had some phone conversations,
`yes.
` Q About how -- how many times did you
`talk on the phone?
` A Once or twice.
` Q And did you write the declaration
`yourself?
` A I had the aid of some attorneys and
`others.
` Q About how much time in total did
`you spend in the preparation of your
`declaration?
` A I would say, five hours, maybe, six
`hours.
` Q And how much, in total, in expert
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`Page 12
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`assume that you understand the question,
`okay, sir?
` A Fine.
` Q All right. I'm going to show the
`witness what's been previously marked as
`Amerigen Exhibit 1002.
` (Amerigen Exhibit 1002,
` Declaration of Scott R. Serels,
` M.D., having been previously
` marked, was introduced into the
` record.)
` Q Sir, do you recognize this
`document?
` A I do.
` Q This is your December 4th, 2015
`declaration in this matter; is that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q When did you last review your
`declaration?
` A Yesterday.
` Q And when were you first approached
`to get involved in this matter?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection to
` form.
` A It was probably six to eight months
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`fees have you billed?
` A I do not have the exact amount.
`I'd have to get that for you.
` Q Do you have an estimate?
` A Maybe $3,000.
` Q And I asked you about the total
`time you spent in preparation of your
`declaration, you said five, maybe six hours?
` A Correct.
` Q Does that include reviewing
`literature or --
` A Yes.
` Q -- just --
` A Yes.
` Q So in total, the drafting of the
`declaration and review of literature, you
`spent about five to six hours?
` A Correct.
` Q I'm going to show the witness what
`has been previously marked as Janssen
`Exhibit 2029.
` MS. MATERASSI: So just a
` question, Counsel, are we marking
` these exhibits in numerical order,
` is this Exhibit 3 or are we
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`3 (Pages 9 to 12)
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`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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`Page 13
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` following the original designation
` of the exhibit number?
` MS. DONOVAN: We are not
` marking what's previously been
` marked, we're following the
` Amerigen exhibit number. What I've
` given you right now is Dr. Serels'
` CV, this was not previously part of
` the record, so I've given it the
` next Janssen exhibit number.
` So we've -- the last paper that
` was filed was the pro hac
` submission for Isaac Olson, that
` was 2027, we've now started the
` notice of deposition as 2028 and
` Dr. Serels' CV is 2029.
` MS. MATERASSI: Okay. Thank
` you.
`BY MS. DONOVAN:
` Q Sir, do you recognize Janssen
`Exhibit 2029?
` A I do.
` Q Okay. And that's your CV; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And when did you last update your
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` A Probably about 20 percent.
` Q And what percentage of your
`practice involves the treatment of men with
`metastatic castration-resistant prostate
`cancer?
` A Probably somewhere between 5 to
`8 percent.
` Q Now, with regard to the prostate
`cancer patients that you treat, what
`percentage of your practice involves
`actually treating the cancer?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` A I would say the 20 percent.
` Q Have you administered ADT?
` A I have.
` Q And what about second-line hormonal
`therapy?
` A I have.
` Q Your CV lists one publication dated
`1997 that concerns prostate cancer; is that
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q So you haven't published an article
`concerning prostate cancer in about
`20 years; is that right?
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`CV?
` A I want to say, probably September
`of last year.
` Q Do you consider it to be up to date
`and generally reflective of your
`professional background?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, your current position is
`director of daily operations at the Bladder
`Control Center of Norwalk; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And there, you state on your CV,
`you're director of daily operations which
`involve urodynamics, female urology and
`neurourology; is that right?
` A Neurourology, correct.
` Q So you don't specialize in prostate
`cancer; right, sir?
` A Correct.
` Q Did you treat men who have been
`diagnosed with prostate cancer?
` A Yes.
` Q What percentage of your practice
`involves the treatment of men who have been
`diagnosed with prostate cancer?
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` A Correct.
` Q And your CV also lists one
`presentation concerning prostate cancer
`dated 1996; is that right?
` A Correct.
` Q So you haven't made any
`presentations concerning prostate cancer in
`about 20 years; is that right?
` A Correct.
` Q So you're not an expert in the
`treatment of prostate cancer; is that
`correct?
` A I'm a urologist who treats prostate
`cancer.
` Q Do you consider yourself an expert
`in the treatment of prostate cancer?
` A No.
` Q Do you have any drug discovery
`experience, sir?
` A Drug discovery --
` Q Discovery.
` A Could you elaborate on the
`question.
` Q Have you been involved in the
`design of any clinical trials?
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`4 (Pages 13 to 16)
`
`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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`Page 17
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` A Yes.
` Q Have you been involved in the
`design of any clinical trials relating to
`prostate cancer?
` A No.
` Q Have you been involved in any
`medicinal chemistry research relating to the
`discovery of drugs?
` A Explain, explain a little more
`clearly what you mean by that.
` Q Have you -- have you been involved
`in any medicinal chemistry research?
` A So actually doing the chemistry?
` Q Yes.
` A All my research has been clinical
`recently.
` Q Why don't -- can you explain to me
`the type of clinical research that you do.
` A Yeah. Essentially, once a compound
`has been created and either it has FDA
`approval or it's going to get -- or looking
`to get FDA approval, I'll be involved in the
`clinical trials to bring that medication or
`drug to market.
` Q And you just confirmed none of
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` Q Do you agree replacing one drug for
`another in a drug combination can have
`unpredictable results?
` A Depending on how far along you are,
`yes, you could be surprised by things.
` Q So replacing one drug for another
`in a drug combination can have unpredictable
`results; correct?
` A I imagine it could, yes.
` Q Okay. And you agree it's not
`possible to know in advance whether therapy
`will be safe and effective without
`conducting a clinical trial; correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And you have never developed any
`drug combinations for prostate cancer;
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q All right, sir, if you could look
`at your declaration, please.
` Could you please turn to
`Paragraph 8 of your declaration, sir. And
`in Paragraph 8, you provide an opinion
`concerning the person of ordinary skill in
`the art at the time of the filing of the
`
`Page 20
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`Page 18
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`these clinical trials have concerned
`prostate cancer drugs?
` A Correct.
` Q Other than this clinical trial
`research, have you been involved in any
`other type of research relating to the
`discovery or development of a drug?
` A No.
` Q Can you describe for me, just
`generally, the clinical trials that you have
`been involved with, the type of medications?
` A They've all been related to
`urologic care regarding either prostate
`problems or prostatitic problems.
` Q Do you agree drug discovery is
`unpredictable?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection to
` form.
` A I'm not sure -- can you elaborate
`on the question.
` Q That's my question.
` Do you agree drug discovery is
`unpredictable, sir, is that a correct
`statement?
` A Yes.
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`'438 patent.
` A Mm-hmm.
` Q Correct?
` A Mm-hmm, correct.
` Q And there, you say that the person
`of ordinary skill in the art at the time of
`filing of this patent is, "A physician
`specializing in urology or oncology or holds
`a Ph.D. in pharmacology, biochemistry or a
`related discipline."
` Do you see that, sir?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Do you agree, sir, that in actual
`practice, not all urologists treat prostate
`cancer?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Form.
` A I mean, I'm sure there are some
`that don't, but urologists tend to treat a
`broad, a group of different conditions and
`usually prostate cancer is one of them.
` Q But you'd agree that there may be
`some urologists that don't treat prostate
`cancer; is that true?
` A I'm sure there are some.
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`5 (Pages 17 to 20)
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`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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` Q And is it also true that in actual
`practice, not all oncologists treat prostate
`cancer?
` A I would agree with that.
` Q So my question is: In your
`opinion, would a person of ordinary skill in
`the art, as you've defined it in
`Paragraph 8, need to have experience in the
`treatment of prostate cancer?
` A Yes.
` Q And how many years of experience
`would the person of ordinary skill in the
`art need to have in the treatment of
`prostate cancer?
` A It depends on the volume of cases
`they see. That's a tough question to
`answer. Could be an intensive year that
`would do that.
` Q So are you -- I'm -- I'd like you
`to clarify.
` A Mm-hmm.
` Q Are you saying it -- it would be
`variable?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you please define for me and
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`are a person of ordinary skill in the art,
`under your definition?
` A You know, there, again, it's a hard
`thing to define, I think everybody learns at
`a different pace, so I couldn't give you an
`absolute number, nor do I think the American
`Urologic Association would do that or any of
`the oncologic associations.
` Q So you don't know; is that correct?
` A I don't think there's a definition.
` Q So you don't know what the
`definition, the amount of experience, in
`terms of years or patients that the person
`of ordinary skill in the art would need,
`under your definition, to qualify as a
`person of ordinary skill?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Mischaracterizes the witness'
` testimony.
` A Yes, I -- I couldn't give you an
`absolute timeframe.
` Q So I just want to clear the record
`a little bit --
` A No, I just -- I really.
` Q -- this question.
`
`Page 24
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`Page 22
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`give me a range of how many years of
`experience the person of ordinary skill
`would need in treating prostate cancer to
`qualify as a person of ordinary skill.
` A It -- it just depends on the volume
`of patients that they have. So someone of
`ordinary skill, if they did a fellowship in
`prostate cancer and every patient they saw
`for a year was a prostate cancer patient, a
`year would be enough to make them fairly
`well-experienced with it. Someone who sees
`less patients, it may take them a longer
`period of time. I don't think you can put
`an actual time limit on how long it takes to
`become an expert in it.
` Q So you're not able to define the
`amount of time that the person of ordinary
`skill, the amount of experience the person
`of ordinary skill would need in prostate
`cancer.
` A I couldn't --
` Q Is that right?
` A I couldn't make that definition.
` Q Is there a volume of patients that
`the physician would need to see before they
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` One second.
` A I don't have an answer to the
`question.
` Q So I just would like to confirm
`that you are not able to define in the
`number of years, the amount of experience
`the person of ordinary skill would need to
`have in treating prostate cancer; is that
`correct?
` A If I can elaborate a tiny bit. You
`know, as a -- it may be different in other
`fields, but as a urologist, you spend a
`certain amount of time training, usually
`it's six years training in urology, and once
`you get out, your -- you take your boards,
`and at that point, if you pass your boards
`and you have the adequate experience, you
`are considered to be someone who can treat
`people with prostate cancer. So I think
`you're an ordinary person skilled in the art
`of treating prostate cancer after your
`residency and after you've taken your boards
`and have become board-certified by the
`American Urologic Association.
` Q And what if for the next ten years
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`6 (Pages 21 to 24)
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`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
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`Page 25
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`you didn't treat any prostate cancer
`patients, would you continue to be a person
`of ordinary skill in the art for the
`treatment of prostate cancer as you have
`defined it?
` A Yes.
` And to elaborate further, during
`those -- that period of time, you are taking
`continuing medical education credits and you
`are getting recertified in the board of
`urology, so there, again, if the American
`Urologic Association is the governing body
`and they deem you a person of ordinary skill
`to treat prostate cancer, then I think I --
`I would most often go by that.
` Q So under your definition, to
`continue to qualify to be a person of
`ordinary skill in the art, the physician
`would need to be recertified --
` A Correct.
` Q -- in urology?
` A That would be fair to say.
` Q You don't have a Ph.D. or
`additional experience in pharmacology,
`biochemistry or a related discipline; is
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` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Vague.
` A Yeah, I -- I guess, in order to be
`able to answer your question, I'd have to
`say, if at that time you were
`board-certified, at the time of filing of
`the patent, then I think you'd be considered
`to fall into the category that you're
`looking for.
` Q And what is the time of filing of
`the patent that you're applying?
` A The exact date, I don't know, but I
`think it was somewhere around 2006, perhaps,
`2004, but I'm not -- I'm not completely
`sure.
` Q So at this time, you don't recall?
` A I don't recall the time the patent
`was file -- filed.
` Q Okay. Now, the timeframe that
`you've given, when you define the person of
`ordinary skill in the art, did you
`incorporate -- strike that.
` When you conducted your analysis
`from the perspective of an ordinary -- a
`person of ordinary skill in the art, did you
`
`Page 28
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`Page 26
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`that correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And you don't have a Ph.D. or
`additional experience in pharmaceutical
`sciences; is that correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And in determining the level of
`skill for this person of ordinary skill,
`what timeframe did you apply?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Vague.
` A You know, there again, I think
`it's a -- if you are a board-certified
`urologist, you're a person of ordinary
`skill.
` Q Let me rephrase that question.
` You said in Paragraph 8, in your
`opinion, given the disclosure of the '438
`patent, "I consider a person of ordinary
`skill in the art at the time of filing of
`this patent to be someone," and then you
`gave a definition.
` So my question is: What time
`period did you apply when you determined the
`person of ordinary skill in the art?
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`incorporate your current understanding of
`the art into your analysis?
` A Yes.
` Q So how did you -- and so your
`current understanding would be the
`understanding you have today; is that
`correct?
` A Sure, yes.
` Q So in performing your analysis and
`providing your opinions in your declaration,
`did you use the perspective of a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` A Yes.
` Q Are you aware that under the law, a
`person of ordinary skill in the art is
`someone who thinks along conventional lines
`and has ordinary creativity?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Legal conclusion.
` A I was not aware of that specific
`definition, but that seems reasonable.
` Q So -- how did you get your
`understanding of -- of the standard for a
`person of ordinary skill in the art?
` A I mean, I'm sure at one time I read
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`7 (Pages 25 to 28)
`
`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
`
`Page 29
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`a definition of it, but I think it's
`self-explanatory.
` Q But you didn't consider that the
`skilled person is a person who thinks along
`conventional lines and has ordinary
`creativity; is that correct?
` A I think -- thinks along
`conventional lines makes sense, the -- the
`creativity aspect is -- is something that I
`didn't -- wouldn't normally associate with
`ordinary skill, but I think it's a
`reasonable way to describe it.
` Q So when you did your analysis, how
`did you separate your current understanding
`from what the perspective would be of the
`skilled person who would be thinking along
`conventional lines and have ordinary
`creativity?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Vague, legal conclusion.
` A Yeah, I think as a physician, you
`know, I was thinking in terms of your
`ordinary physician treating prostate cancer
`and they would have the knowledge of, in the
`normal circumstance, certain things and that
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` Q Now, you cited certain literature
`in your declaration; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Who provided you with the
`references that are cited in your
`declaration?
` A It was a combination. Some I
`found, some other people found at the law
`firm that I was working with. We pooled our
`resources.
` Q If you could turn to pages --
`Page 3.
` A Page 3.
` Q Of your declaration, sir.
` You see there's a listing of
`"Materials Considered"?
` A Yes.
` Q And you see it continues on to
`Page 5?
` A Yes.
` Q Just looking at it, are you able to
`tell me which -- if there are references on
`here that you identified independent of your
`attorneys?
` A Let's see. The first -- the
`
`Page 32
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`was how I thought, an ordinary skilled
`physician to relate that to whatever study
`they're working on, whether it be prostate
`cancer or something otherwise.
` Q But you're someone with more than
`ordinary skill; is that correct?
` A Well, I think I'm a practicing
`physician who treats prostate cancer, so
`I -- I hold all of my colleagues in high
`regard.
` Q That's not my question, sir.
` My question is: Are you someone
`with ordinary skill in the art?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q And are you someone with more than
`ordinary skill in the art?
` A No, I'm someone with ordinary skill
`in the art.
` Q Okay. Are you aware that under the
`laws, a person of ordinary skill in the art
`is presumed to be aware of all of the
`pertinent prior art?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` Legal conclusion.
` A Yes.
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`second, third, certainly. The patent ones I
`did not.
` Q And what are you referring to, if
`you could just use the exhibit number to --
` A Oh, I'm sorry. It was -- it was
`1003, 1004, 1018, 1019 that tangentially
`relates to 1026. I mean, there are others,
`but I think there may have been a
`combination of -- of how we came about on
`those.
` Q And what do you mean by "a
`combination"?
` A I think, you know, that it was
`almost simultaneous, that -- that I may have
`found them at a similar time that somebody
`else did, so it may have brought -- been
`brought up independently.
` Q So your attorneys told you about
`them and you were aware of them; is that
`what you're saying?
` A Correct, that is what I'm saying.
` Q But you didn't independently
`identify them independent of your attorneys;
`is that right?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
`
`THE MCS GROUP, INC.
`
`8 (Pages 29 to 32)
`
`
`
`Scott Serels, M.D.
`August 22, 2016
`
`Page 33
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` Mischaracterizes his testimony.
` A I think it was -- I'm sorry.
` I think it's a mixture, like 1025,
`you know, something that, you know, we had
`talked about before, I didn't actually have
`the -- you know, the actual reference, but I
`knew it existed in that, and we had talked
`about finding it. So I -- I think it was we
`came up with some of these references in
`combination. It was one of those things
`where I remembered there was an article
`written by -- on this topic by this, you
`know, person, published around this time,
`and they were able to -- to find that
`article.
` Q But the -- did your attorneys send
`you the O'Donnell reference that's 1003?
` A I think that -- that's one we came
`up with together, you know, that we both had
`realized it existed and --
` Q So they sent it to you?
` MS. MATERASSI: Objection.
` A Well, I think they may have pulled
`the reference, yes.
` Q And did you bring it up yourself or
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`not aware of the O'Donnell reference; is
`that correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And prior to this matter, you were
`not aware of the Gerber reference; is that
`correct?
` A I mean, I -- the Gerber reference
`has been referenced in other papers and in
`textbooks, so I was aware of that article.
`Did I know the exact title and where it was,
`no.
` Q Prior to this matter, when is the
`last time you had read an article that
`mentioned the Gerber reference?
` A It could have been years.
` Q And prior to this matter, were you
`aware -- well, strike that.
` Prior to this matter, were you
`aware of the Auchus reference, that's AMG
`1026?
` A Well, in that -- the short answer
`is, yes. The longer answer is that that was
`something that was based on some of the
`other things we had found previously. So
`that was referenced in some of the other
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`did it -- who -- who mentioned it first?
` A I think -- I mean, the process, in
`our situation, a lot of times we would do
`literature searches and find diff