·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`·3· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`Page 1
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·SONY CORPORATION,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·RAYTHEON COMPANY,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2015-01201
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · Patent 5,591,678
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`15· · -----------------------------------------------------
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · ·The deposition of EUGENE ARTHUR
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`18· ·FITZGERALD, PH.D., called for examination, taken
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`19· ·before DINA G. MANCILLAS, a Certified Shorthand
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`20· ·Reporter within and for the State of Illinois, CSR No.
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`21· ·84-3400 of said State, at Suite 3100, 115 South
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`22· ·LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois, on May 6, 2016, at
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`23· ·9:00 a.m.
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`SONY 1020
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`SONY 1026
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`·3· · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`Page 1
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·SONY CORPORATION,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·RAYTHEON COMPANY,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2015-01201
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · Patent 5,591,678
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`15· · -----------------------------------------------------
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`16
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`17· · · · · · · ·The deposition of EUGENE ARTHUR
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`18· ·FITZGERALD, PH.D., called for examination, taken
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`19· ·before DINA G. MANCILLAS, a Certified Shorthand
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`20· ·Reporter within and for the State of Illinois, CSR No.
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`21· ·84-3400 of said State, at Suite 3100, 115 South
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`22· ·LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois, on May 6, 2016, at
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`23· ·9:00 a.m.
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`SONY 1020
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`SONY 1026
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`Page 2
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`·1· ·PRESENT:
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`·2
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`·3· · · · TURNER BOYD LLP,
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`·4· · · · (San Antonio Center,
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`·5· · · · 702 Marshall Street, Suite 640,
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`·6· · · · Redwood City, California· 94063,
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`·7· · · · 650-265-6109), by:
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`·8· · · · MR. MATTHEW SMITH,
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`·9· · · · smith@turnerboyd.com,
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`10· · · · MR. JACOB ZWEIG,
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`11· · · · zweig@turnerboyd.com
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`12· · · · · · ·appeared on behalf of the Petitioner;
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`13
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`14· · · · STEPTOE & JOHNSON, LLP,
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`15· · · · (115 South LaSalle Street, Suite 3100,
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`16· · · · Chicago, Illinois· 60603,
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`17· · · · 312-577-1300), by:
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`18· · · · MR. THOMAS J. FILARSKI,
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`19· · · · tfilarski@steptoe.com,
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`20· · · · · · ·appeared on behalf of the Patent Owner.
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`·1· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`·2· · · · Mr. William H. McInnis, Raytheon Company.
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`Page 3
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`23· ·REPORTED BY:
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`24· · · · · · ·DINA G. MANCILLAS, CSR, RPR, CRR, CLR
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`25· · · · · · ·CSR No. 84-3400
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`Page 4
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`·2· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·3· ·EUGENE A. FITZGERALD, PH.D.
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`·4· · · · By Mr. Smith· · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
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`·5· · · · By Mr. Filarski· · · · · · · · · · · ·71
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`·6· · · · By Mr. Smith· · · · · · · · · · · · · 79
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
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`·9
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`10
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`11· · ·*** EXHIBITS WERE RETAINED BY COUNSEL AND ARE NOT
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`12· · · · · · ·ATTACHED TO THIS TRANSCRIPT. ***
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`Page 5
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·(The witness was duly sworn.)
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`·2· · · · · · · EUGENE ARTHUR FITZGERALD, PH.D.,
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`·3· ·called as a witness herein, having been first duly
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`·4· ·sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·6· ·BY MR. SMITH:
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`·7· · · · Q.· · ·So, Dr. Fitzgerald, good morning.
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`·8· ·Thank you for coming.
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`·9· · · · A.· · ·Good morning.
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`10· · · · Q.· · ·Could you just spell your full name for
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`11· ·the record?
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`12· · · · A.· · ·Spell it letter-by-letter?
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`13· · · · Q.· · ·If you would.
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`14· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· All right.· It's E-u-g-e-n-e, A,
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`15· ·which is for Arthur, Fitzgerald,
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`16· ·F-i-t-z-g-e-r-a-l-d.
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`17· · · · Q.· · ·Great.
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`18· · · · A.· · ·Officially a junior, J-r.
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`19· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know any other Eugene A.
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`20· ·Fitzgeralds that are active in your field?
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`21· · · · A.· · ·No.
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`22· · · · Q.· · ·Have you ever had your deposition taken
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`23· ·before?
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`24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`25· · · · Q.· · ·How many times, do you think?
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`
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`·1· · · · A.· · ·One time.
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`Page 6
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`·2· · · · Q.· · ·Was it in an inter partes review or --
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`·3· · · · A.· · ·It was -- it was for a case that went
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`·4· ·to trial.
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`·5· · · · Q.· · ·So, a district court litigation, patent
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`·6· ·case?
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`·7· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`·8· · · · Q.· · ·You understand you're under oath,
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`·9· ·right?
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`10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`11· · · · Q.· · ·Great.· I'm going to ask you questions,
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`12· ·typical procedure.· If you don't understand
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`13· ·something, ask me to clarify, if you would.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Do you have any medical issues or
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`15· ·anything that would prevent you from testifying
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`16· ·fully, completely, and accurately today?
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`17· · · · A.· · ·Only that it's my anniversary.· No.
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`18· ·I'm just joking.
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`19· · · · Q.· · ·Can't tell the truth on your
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`20· ·anniversary?
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`21· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· It actually is, but anyway.· So
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`22· ·it's my sacrifice to you guys.
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`23· · · · Q.· · ·Thank you very much.
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`24· · · · A.· · ·All right.
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`25· · · · Q.· · ·Any reason you would need to take
`
`
`
`·1· ·additional breaks or anything like that?
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`Page 7
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`·2· · · · A.· · ·No.
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`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Great.· Do you understand that for this
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`·4· ·particular procedure, during the cross
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`·5· ·examination, during breaks, you can't talk to
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`·6· ·anybody about the substance of the deposition?
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`·7· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Good.· Now, I have given you a copy of
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`·9· ·Exhibit 2019.
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`10· · · · · · · ·Is this a declaration signed by you?
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`11· · · · A.· · ·It looks like my declaration, yeah. I
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`12· ·assume it's -- if you say so.
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`13· · · · · · · ·Do you want me to look at my signature
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`14· ·or --
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`15· · · · Q.· · ·If you're comfortable with it, that's
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`16· ·fine with me.
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`17· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· I'm sure -- there it is.
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`18· ·There's my signature.· Yes, it is.
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`19· · · · Q.· · ·And just to confirm, this is about U.S.
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`20· ·Patent No. 5,591,678?
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`21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`22· · · · Q.· · ·And I've given you a copy of
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`23· ·Exhibit 1001, which is that patent.
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`24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`25· · · · Q.· · ·And if I refer to that as "the '678
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`
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`·1· ·patent," is that all right?· You know what I'm
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`Page 8
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`·2· ·talking about?
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`·3· · · · A.· · ·That's fine.· Yes.
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`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Good.· Are you an expert in the field
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`·5· ·of the '678 patent?
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`·6· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`·7· · · · Q.· · ·Do you keep up-to-date on new
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`·8· ·developments in the field?
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`·9· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`10· · · · Q.· · ·And is that true -- has that been true
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`11· ·throughout your career?
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`12· · · · A.· · ·Sure.· I mean, my area is pretty broad
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`13· ·from heteroepitaxy all the way up to this kind of
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`14· ·topic, yes.
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`15· · · · Q.· · ·Semiconductor fabrication in general?
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`16· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`17· · · · Q.· · ·There's a CV at the end of your
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`18· ·declaration, is there not, or at least a short
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`19· ·one?
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`20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· Appendix 1.
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`21· · · · Q.· · ·And at the end of Appendix 1, there's
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`22· ·the section entitled "Publications and Patents."
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`23· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`25· · · · Q.· · ·And it says there are more than 300
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`
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`·1· ·published technical articles and more than 100
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`Page 9
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`·2· ·patents --
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`·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Those are things that you've published?
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`·5· · · · A.· · ·Well, I'm co-author on over 300.
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`·6· · · · · · · ·So you probably know the academic thing
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`·7· ·where on a lot of my publications, I'm the last
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`·8· ·author because I'm the PI, the principal
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`·9· ·investigator, for those researches.
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`10· · · · · · · ·Back at Bell Labs, you see my name as
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`11· ·first because, you know, I'm the direct researcher
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`12· ·involved.
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`13· · · · Q.· · ·So if your name is first, you're more
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`14· ·directly involved in the research --
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`15· · · · A.· · ·In our field, that's how it goes, yeah.
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`16· · · · Q.· · ·Let me ask it again.
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`17· · · · · · · ·So if your name is first on a
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`18· ·publication -- not talking patents now, but if
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`19· ·your name was first on a technical article, that
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`20· ·means you were more directly involved; whereas, if
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`21· ·it was last, that means you were less directly
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`22· ·involved?
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`23· · · · A.· · ·No.· I mean, it means that
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`24· ·academically, when you're in a university, the
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`25· ·professor's name usually goes last and the people
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`
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`·1· ·like your graduate students go first.
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`Page 10
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`·2· · · · Q.· · ·Now, how long have you been publishing?
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`·3· · · · · · · ·What's the span of your career during
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`·4· ·which you've been publishing?
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`·5· · · · A.· · ·1985.
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`·6· · · · Q.· · ·So that's about 31 years?
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`·7· · · · A.· · ·Something like that, yeah.
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`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Or 400 publications and patents, right?
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`·9· · · · A.· · ·Well, 300 technical articles -- over
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`10· ·that, actually, yeah.· And in domestic and
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`11· ·international patents, over a hundred.· Yeah.
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`12· · · · Q.· · ·So, maybe one a month or so?
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`13· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· If you can do the math, yeah.
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`14· · · · Q.· · ·How can you be involved substantively
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`15· ·in those publications at that rate of publication,
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`16· ·given everything else you're doing?
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`17· · · · A.· · ·It's easy.· I mean, it depends on your
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`18· ·peaks of productivity.· So it's not an even thing,
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`19· ·right?
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`20· · · · · · · ·So I've been fortunate to discover some
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`21· ·really important things along the way.· And so
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`22· ·what happens is, there's a lot of collaboration
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`23· ·and a lot of productivity spikes, and then all
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`24· ·that comes out in a series of patents and
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`25· ·publications.
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`Page 11
`·1· · · · · · · ·And then there's pauses in between, but
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`·2· ·you can all look this up in the -- it's easy to
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`·3· ·track in the Web of Science.
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`·4· · · · Q.· · ·There are some publications, right,
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`·5· ·where your name would be listed on as an author
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`·6· ·where you maybe didn't know what the content was
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`·7· ·before it was published?
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`·8· · · · A.· · ·What do you mean by "you didn't know
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`·9· ·what the content was"?
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`10· · · · Q.· · ·You didn't understand it before it was
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`11· ·published.· You hadn't read it, for example.
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`12· · · · A.· · ·Well, I think there are publications
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`13· ·where, as an advisor, you focus on what the
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`14· ·publication is about.· And so you focus on the key
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`15· ·items that the student is referring to.
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`16· · · · · · · ·So when you review that type of thing,
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`17· ·you focus on the main issues, right?· So, you
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`18· ·know, for example, correcting language and looking
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`19· ·at experimental things that I know happened or
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`20· ·whatever.
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`21· · · · · · · ·I don't necessarily review those very,
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`22· ·you know, tightly, but, you know, I want to make
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`23· ·sure that the students are getting their main
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`24· ·messages out in the proper way.
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`25· · · · Q.· · ·Right.· So would you make sure it was
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`
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`·1· ·accurate at least at a high level or --
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`·2· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· The main points, like I was
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`Page 12
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`·3· ·saying.
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`·4· · · · Q.· · ·I see.· In Paragraph 32 of your
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`·5· ·declaration, if you turn to that for a second,
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`·6· ·there's a section called "Relevant Time Frame."
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`·7· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`·8· · · · A.· · ·Let's see.· Where are you now?
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`·9· · · · Q.· · ·Paragraph 32.
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`10· · · · A.· · ·Oh, Paragraph 32.
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`11· · · · Q.· · ·Do you want me to use the page numbers?
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`12· · · · A.· · ·Oh, no, no.· That's fine.· I just had
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`13· ·to put that in my mind.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Yeah.
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`15· · · · Q.· · ·When is the relevant time frame, in
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`16· ·your opinion?
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`17· · · · A.· · ·So what I'm saying here is that this
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`18· ·declaration is early '90s.· I'm also referring
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`19· ·specifically to the references here where I just
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`20· ·scanned these dates out of these references and
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`21· ·used them because there's other people that have
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`22· ·kind of researched and attached claims to a
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`23· ·particular inventive date.
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`24· · · · · · · ·And so I'm referencing those
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`25· ·publications, but, you know, I'm not doing that
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`
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`·1· ·work.· I'm just using those references.· And --
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`·2· ·but as I say here, you know, I'm thinking about
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`Page 13
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`·3· ·the POSITA.
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`·4· · · · · · · ·And if I say "POSITA," that's person of
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`·5· ·ordinary skill in the art, P-O-S-I-T-A, or
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`·6· ·hypothetical, if you -- whatever.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·And so in general, I'm talking about
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`·8· ·the early '90s for this kind of technical work.
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`·9· · · · Q.· · ·So early '90s being what time frame in
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`10· ·particular?
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`11· · · · A.· · ·Well, I think I say that in here.
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`12· ·Let's see.· Well, I said "approximately early
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`13· ·1990s."
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`14· · · · Q.· · ·So is your set of opinions about the
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`15· ·'678 patent directed to the time frame before the
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`16· ·invention or slightly after the invention or both?
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`17· · · · A.· · ·Can you repeat that again?· What --
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`18· · · · Q.· · ·Is your set of opinions in this
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`19· ·declaration --
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`20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
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`21· · · · Q.· · ·-- about the '678 patent directed to
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`22· ·the time frame before the invention, after the
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`23· ·invention or both?
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`24· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection; calls for a
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`25· · · · legal conclusion.
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`·1· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So what does that mean
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`Page 14
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`·2· · · · now?
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`·3· · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· You can answer.
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`·4· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`·5· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· So, I mean, what I understand is
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`·6· ·that I am tasked with looking at a person of
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`·7· ·ordinary skill in the art around this time period.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·Of course, that means that -- if I'm
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`·9· ·doing that work in the early '90s, that doesn't
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`10· ·mean I ignore things from the '80s because I have
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`11· ·that information embodied.· So I'm just looking
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`12· ·for a person of ordinary skill in the art at the
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`13· ·time of the invention.
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`14· ·BY MR. SMITH:
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`15· · · · Q.· · ·What is the significance of the
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`16· ·relevant time frame?
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`17· · · · A.· · ·Well, because that's when you can
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`18· ·determine whether things are patentable, whether
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`19· ·things are inventive or obvious or whatever.
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`20· · · · Q.· · ·So this is, you know, a case about
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`21· ·obviousness in some respects, and this is going to
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`22· ·come up a lot.
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`23· · · · · · · ·If I refer to the "relevant time
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`24· ·frame," can we just agree it's what you've stated
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`25· ·it is in your declaration?
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`Page 15
`·1· · · · A.· · ·What I say in my declaration, sure, on
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`·2· ·Page 12, yeah.
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`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Great.· I'm just going to use a
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`·4· ·shorthand announcing it to you.· I don't want to
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`·5· ·repeat what you've said in Paragraph 32 each time
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`·6· ·in a question because it gets a little bit
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`·7· ·cumbersome.
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`·8· · · · A.· · ·Okay.
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`·9· · · · Q.· · ·Great.· Is the '678 patent valid, in
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`10· ·your opinion?
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`11· · · · A.· · ·The Bendik patent that we're referring
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`12· ·to, yes.
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`13· · · · Q.· · ·Is there anything surprising in the
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`14· ·'678 patent from a technical perspective?
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`15· · · · A.· · ·What do you mean by "surprising"?
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`16· · · · Q.· · ·The normal usage of the word.
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`17· · · · A.· · ·Well, if "surprising" is inventive,
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`18· ·yes.· I mean, that's how I would look at it from
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`19· ·an inventor point of view since I have invented.
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`20· · · · · · · ·So usually "surprise," you could say is
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`21· ·inventive, if that's how you want to define it.
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`22· · · · Q.· · ·So you're defining "surprising" here as
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`23· ·meeting the requirements for receiving a patent
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`24· ·essentially?
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`25· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection.
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · You can answer.
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`·2· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`Page 16
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`·3· · · · A.· · ·I think when you look at a patent,
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`·4· ·right, the inventive elements are where the
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`·5· ·inventors have said, "Oh, you know, there's some
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`·6· ·very surprising things here that allow us to do
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`·7· ·something inventive."
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`·8· ·BY MR. SMITH:
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`·9· · · · Q.· · ·And are those things present in the
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`10· ·'678 patent?
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`11· · · · A.· · ·Sure.
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`12· · · · Q.· · ·What are they?
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`13· · · · A.· · ·Well, I think one of the key ones is
`
`14· ·this early idea of stacking chips in 3D, which
`
`15· ·they were driven to, as I mention in my
`
`16· ·declaration here, by UV applications, imagers.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·And having done a lot of that work
`
`18· ·myself, it's not easy.· And so doing it so early
`
`19· ·and being able to flip these things over, remove
`
`20· ·substrate and have high yield for the applications
`
`21· ·you're talking about here is impressive.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Did they mention the yield in the '678
`
`23· ·patent?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·No.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · ·How do you know they had high yield?
`
`
`
`Page 17
`·1· · · · A.· · ·Well, because I'm familiar with the DOD
`
`·2· ·imaging area.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·So you're not talking about the
`
`·4· ·inventors in particular; you're talking about the
`
`·5· ·field as a whole?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · ·Well, an invention sits in the field,
`
`·7· ·right?
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·So if they're able to flip this over
`
`·9· ·and have this process they talk about here and it
`
`10· ·creates a field of -- of imagers like that,
`
`11· ·that's --
`
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Yeah.· I just wanted to -- sorry. I
`
`13· ·didn't mean to interrupt you.· Go ahead.
`
`14· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· No.· Okay.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · ·I just wanted to be clear whether you
`
`16· ·were talking about some specific knowledge you had
`
`17· ·about the inventors working on the patent or
`
`18· ·whether you were talking more in general.
`
`19· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· So the field is general.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·And I'm talking about the inventive
`
`21· ·elements in '678 for producing those structures.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know anything specifically about
`
`23· ·the yields the inventors obtained in anything they
`
`24· ·might have made?
`
`25· · · · A.· · ·In what stage?
`
`
`
`Page 18
`·1· · · · Q.· · ·Any stage.· Do you know anything about
`
`·2· ·yield that the inventors might have obtained?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · ·Well, typically in the early stage,
`
`·4· ·when you file patents, right, you believe you're
`
`·5· ·going to have higher yield because of the way that
`
`·6· ·the invention goes.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·And then really, the rest of the field
`
`·8· ·after that point determines whether that's valid
`
`·9· ·or not.· You can't always tell in super high
`
`10· ·volume at the time of the invention what's going
`
`11· ·to happen.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know anything specific about
`
`13· ·what yields the inventors obtained for anything?
`
`14· · · · A.· · ·Only what they have in the document.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · ·The document being the '678 patent?
`
`16· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · ·Can you go to Claim 1 of the '678
`
`18· ·patent?
`
`19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Do you believe a person of ordinary
`
`21· ·skill in the art in the relevant time frame could
`
`22· ·have carried out the steps of Claim 1 of the '678
`
`23· ·patent?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·Yes, with the supporting specification.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · ·Do you understand that Claim 1 allows
`
`
`
`Page 19
`·1· ·additional steps to be carried out even if they're
`
`·2· ·not expressly recited in the claims?
`
`·3· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection; calls for a
`
`·4· · · · legal conclusion.
`
`·5· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`·6· · · · A.· · ·You have to tell me specifically what
`
`·7· ·you're talking about.
`
`·8· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`·9· · · · Q.· · ·Did you have --
`
`10· · · · A.· · ·Like, give me an example.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · ·Did you have an understanding when you
`
`12· ·were writing this declaration that steps in
`
`13· ·addition to those expressly listed in Claim 1
`
`14· ·could be carried out and still meet the language
`
`15· ·in Claim 1?
`
`16· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Same objection.
`
`17· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`18· · · · A.· · ·Well, it says "comprising," right?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·So "comprising" means that it only has
`
`20· ·to have these -- this -- these pieces of the
`
`21· ·claim, the scope of the claim, but there could be
`
`22· ·other things happening present throughout.
`
`23· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`24· · · · Q.· · ·What's your understanding of the
`
`25· ·forming step?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · ·So I'll just read it so that we all
`
`·2· ·know -- so, "Forming a microelectronic circuit
`
`·3· ·element in the exposed side of the wafer of the
`
`·4· ·first substrate opposite to the side underlying
`
`·5· ·the etch-stop layer."
`
`Page 20
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·So if we go through the whole thing, I
`
`·7· ·furnish a first substrate having an etchable layer
`
`·8· ·and an etch-stop layer overlay, that's like the
`
`·9· ·SOI substrate, the way I look at it, but you form
`
`10· ·a microelectronic circuit element in the exposed
`
`11· ·side of the wafer of the first substrate.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·So it's building a microelectronic
`
`13· ·circuit on that side.· And then you attach that
`
`14· ·wafer and remove the original substrate.· So
`
`15· ·that's the way I -- I interpret that.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · ·The -- how does the forming step
`
`17· ·typically happen?· I'm not trying to pin you down
`
`18· ·on the claim language.· I'm just asking generally,
`
`19· ·how does one form a microelectronic element?
`
`20· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· A series of processes in a fab
`
`21· ·to make a circuit.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · ·How do you do that, just generally?
`
`23· · · · A.· · ·Well, I reference several, you know,
`
`24· ·classic references in here, like, VLSI by Sze,
`
`25· ·which is -- you probably had ones for
`
`
`
`·1· ·undergraduate, and so there's many steps.
`
`Page 21
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·I mean, you start with wafers, and you
`
`·3· ·deposit layers on them.· I mean, typically, you
`
`·4· ·know, what's been shown in microelectronics is to
`
`·5· ·do a sequence of lithography steps, different
`
`·6· ·processes within them, and you build an electronic
`
`·7· ·circuit.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·So you add layers on --
`
`·9· · · · A.· · ·Most processes are additive, but
`
`10· ·they're subtractive steps.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · ·I see.· Is the top surface of that
`
`12· ·wafer generally the top surface that it began with
`
`13· ·or have you added stuff to it in that process?
`
`14· · · · A.· · ·What -- what surface are you talking
`
`15· ·about?
`
`16· · · · Q.· · ·The top surface of the wafer referred
`
`17· ·to in the claims.
`
`18· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection; relevance,
`
`19· · · · calls for a legal conclusion.
`
`20· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`21· · · · A.· · ·So -- so it says, "Forming a
`
`22· ·microelectronic circuit element in the exposed
`
`23· ·side of the wafer of the first substrate."
`
`24· · · · · · · ·So I'm picturing on that first exposed
`
`25· ·surface this microelectronics circuit being formed
`
`
`
`·1· ·on it.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·On it?
`
`·4· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.
`
`Page 22
`
`·5· · · · Q.· · ·Can you read Claim 2 for a second?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·And in particular, I'm wondering what
`
`·7· ·the word "patterning" means there.
`
`·8· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection; calls for a
`
`·9· · · · legal conclusion.
`
`10· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`11· · · · A.· · ·All right.· It says, "The method of
`
`12· ·Claim 1 further including an additional step after
`
`13· ·the step of etching of patterning the etch-stop
`
`14· ·layer."
`
`15· · · · · · · ·And what's your question?
`
`16· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`17· · · · Q.· · ·What does the word "patterning" mean to
`
`18· ·you?
`
`19· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Same objection.
`
`20· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`21· · · · A.· · ·Creating a pattern.
`
`22· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`23· · · · Q.· · ·What kind of pattern?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·Any kind of pattern.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · ·So an arbitrary pattern or --
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· It depends on what the
`
`Page 23
`
`·2· ·application needs.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·When was the first time you heard about
`
`·4· ·the '678 patent?
`
`·5· · · · A.· · ·I can't recall, but obviously related
`
`·6· ·to this case.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·So, sometime in the last three or four
`
`·8· ·years?
`
`·9· · · · A.· · ·Oh, for sure, because I think -- I
`
`10· ·don't know.· A couple years, yeah, something
`
`11· ·around there.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Can you look at Appendix 2 for a second
`
`13· ·in your declaration?· It's the last couple of
`
`14· ·pages.
`
`15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· Okay.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · ·It says "List of Documents Considered."
`
`17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · ·Is that a complete list of things you
`
`19· ·considered for this declaration?
`
`20· · · · A.· · ·For this declaration, yes.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · ·Is there any document you know about
`
`22· ·that's not listed in Appendix 2 that's
`
`23· ·inconsistent with your declaration?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·Say that again.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · ·Is there any document that you know
`
`
`
`·1· ·about that's not listed in Appendix 2 that is
`
`Page 24
`
`·2· ·inconsistent with your declaration?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · ·No.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Sorry.· I have to ask.
`
`·5· · · · A.· · ·Oh, okay.· I was like -- okay.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·I notice that a number of the documents
`
`·7· ·listed in Appendix 2 have dates in Appendix 2 that
`
`·8· ·are after the relevant time frame?
`
`·9· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.
`
`10· · · · Q.· · ·And I'm looking at Exhibit 2025,
`
`11· ·Exhibit 2026, Exhibit 2028, Exhibit 2029,
`
`12· ·Exhibit 2030, Exhibit 2031, Exhibit 2033,
`
`13· ·Exhibit 2034.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Those look like the publications that
`
`15· ·have dates after the relevant time frame.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Do you agree?
`
`17· · · · A.· · ·I've got to go look at each one because
`
`18· ·some of those are in the early to mid '90s, but
`
`19· ·the ones that are significantly later, there are
`
`20· ·some, yes.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · ·Given that the exhibits are later
`
`22· ·published, why do you think they're relevant at
`
`23· ·all?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·Well, if you notice the ones that I
`
`25· ·selected are review-type articles and textbooks.
`
`
`
`Page 25
`·1· · · · · · · ·So the purpose of review articles and
`
`·2· ·textbooks is to basically review a field and kind
`
`·3· ·of say, "Hey, here's all the things in the history
`
`·4· ·that we know about."
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·And so that's why they're very useful,
`
`·6· ·especially in educating people about the field.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·Does the content of those documents, in
`
`·8· ·your mind, reflect the knowledge of a person of
`
`·9· ·ordinary skill in the art in the relevant time
`
`10· ·frame?
`
`11· · · · A.· · ·Yes, because they're the review-type
`
`12· ·activity.· If it's a very specific, you know,
`
`13· ·contemporary article, it wouldn't have those
`
`14· ·features.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · ·A number of these later published
`
`16· ·documents are cited in a section of your
`
`17· ·declaration which starts around Paragraph 34,
`
`18· ·ends, I think, at --
`
`19· · · · A.· · ·I'm sorry.· I couldn't hear you on that
`
`20· ·one.· If you could say that again.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · ·Sure.· Why don't we break it down and
`
`22· ·go to Paragraph 34.
`
`23· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.· Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · ·There's a section called "Technical
`
`25· ·Background" --
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`Page 26
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · ·-- which looks like it goes up to about
`
`·3· ·Paragraph 59 to me.· Is that correct?
`
`·4· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.· Through Paragraph 59, yes.
`
`·5· ·Correct.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·You're relying on the later published
`
`·7· ·documents in this section, in part, are you not?
`
`·8· · · · A.· · ·I refer to some of them in this
`
`·9· ·section, that's correct.
`
`10· · · · Q.· · ·Isn't it true, Dr. Fitzgerald, that
`
`11· ·this technical background section does not
`
`12· ·accurately reflect what a person of ordinary skill
`
`13· ·in the art would have known in the relevant time
`
`14· ·frame?
`
`15· · · · A.· · ·Well, what I'm doing in this technical
`
`16· ·background section is describing some present-day
`
`17· ·things so that you can understand someone skilled
`
`18· ·in the art in the time period of interest.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·So in other words, if you -- if you
`
`20· ·look at -- where I was talking about the value of
`
`21· ·the patent, right?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·That was the reason it's interesting
`
`23· ·today, is because people are now in a wider way
`
`24· ·employing the '678 into products because of
`
`25· ·certain reasons.· And so you can't avoid -- I just
`
`
`
`·1· ·want to give a background where, you know, the
`
`·2· ·importance of the '678, but at the time, it's
`
`Page 27
`
`·3· ·inventive.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·So in order to show the time that it's
`
`·5· ·inventive, you have to kind of set the background
`
`·6· ·both why is it valuable today, but also how were
`
`·7· ·things back at the time of the invention?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Are you familiar with a concept known
`
`·9· ·as bonded etch-back SOI?
`
`10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · ·BESOI?
`
`12· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · ·What is it?
`
`14· · · · A.· · ·It's one of the techniques for creating
`
`15· ·SOI.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · ·How does it work?
`
`17· · · · A.· · ·You take one wafer.· You bond it to
`
`18· ·Si -- well, there's two ways to do it.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·One is, you can bond it to a SiO2
`
`20· ·coated silicon wafer or you can coat both wafers
`
`21· ·with -- so you can bond it to a silicon wafer
`
`22· ·coated with silicon dioxide, which I refer to
`
`23· ·sometimes as "SiO2," and then -- or you could put
`
`24· ·silicon dioxide, SiO2, on both wafers and bond them
`
`25· ·so you do an oxide-oxide bond.
`
`
`
`Page 28
`·1· · · · · · · ·And then you, in some way, remove the
`
`·2· ·rest of the first wafer down to some -- some
`
`·3· ·thickness.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·And what is a wafer?
`
`·5· · · · · · · MR. FILARSKI:· Objection to the extent
`
`·6· · · · it calls for a legal conclusion.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. SMITH:
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·I'm not asking for a legal conclusion,
`
`·9· ·by the way.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Just technically, what's your
`
`11· ·understanding of what a wafer is?
`
`12· · · · A.· · ·So there's kind of colloquial things,
`
`13· ·and then there's the way that the wafer is used in
`
`14· ·the claims of the patent.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·So there -- different things.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · ·What's the colloquial usage?
`
`17· · · · A.· · ·So colloquial is "wafer" and
`
`18· ·"substrate" -- well, "substrate" refers to the
`
`19· ·beginning wafer for sure.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·Sometimes you have people refer to a
`
`21· ·wafer as a partially processed wafer.· So, you
`
`22· ·know, then sometimes people refer to a substrate
`
`23· ·as wafer.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·So they're kind of interchangeable to
`
`25· ·some folks.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · ·I'm actually asking for something a
`
`Page 29
`
`·2· ·little more basic.
`
`·3· · · · A.· · ·Okay.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·What is a wafer just generally?· What
`
`·5· ·is it physically?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · ·Oh, you mean, like, not semantically,
`
`·7· ·but --
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Exactly.
`
`·9· · · · A.· · ·-- technically?
`
`10· · · · Q.· · ·Sure.
`
`11· · · · A.· · ·Okay.· Well, wafer is -- or a substrate
`
`12· ·is the beginning material for a lot of
`
`13· ·microprocessing of semiconductors.
`
`14· · · · Q.· · ·What does it look like?
`
`15· · · · A.· · ·Look?· How do you define look?· What do
`
`16· ·you mean.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·To an average person, it just looks
`
`18· ·like a grey thing and it's a circle, right?
`
`19· · · · Q.· · ·Circle?
`
`20· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · ·In your declaration, you talk about
`
`22· ·silicon-on-insulator substrates.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·Do you recall that?· What is a
`
`24· ·silicon-on-insulator substrate?
`
`25· · · · A.· · ·You have silicon on top of oxide on top
`
`
`
`Page 30
`·1· ·of silicon where the bottom silicon substrate is
`
`·2· ·usually thicker than the top layer.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have some way that's preferable
`
`·4· ·to refer to these three layers?· Because I think
`
`·5· ·in the questions that we just went through, you
`
`·6· ·know, it's clear that sometimes the word
`
`·7· ·"substrate" is used differently.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·I mean, how should -- if I want to
`
`·9· ·designate these layers to you clearly, what should
`
`10· ·I call the bottom layer?· What should I call the
`
`11· ·oxide layer?· What should I call the top layer?
`
`12· · · · A.· · ·Again, are you talking about the patent
`
`13· ·or are you talking about just in general
`
`14· ·hypothetically?
`
`15· · · · Q.· · ·SOI substrates?
`
`16· · · · A.· · ·Well, so typically, in SOI substrate
`
`17· ·world, they refer to -- at the -- you know, buried
`
`18· ·oxide thickness is the typical term for the SiO2
`
`19· ·underneath, and they work for the top layer as top
`
`20· ·silicon thickness.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·Is that what you mean?
`
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Yes.· And what would I refer to the
`
`23· ·base silicon layer as?
`
`24· · · · A.· · ·Well, since those first two things are
`
`25· ·really the key to the SOI technology, you don't --
`
`
`
`Page 31
`·1· ·nobody refers to that bottom thing too often, but
`
`·2· ·it's essentially the beginning substrate.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·So if I call it the "beginning
`
`·4· ·substrate," then in the middle, the buried oxide
`
`·5· ·layer then in the top, the top silicon, you'll
`
`·6· ·know what I mean?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · ·Correct.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Great.· Are chips that are made
`
`·9· ·from wafers usually rectangular?
`
`10· · · · A.· · ·Are chips?· In what context?· I mean,
`
`11· ·as in the entire world or, like, what?
`
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · A.· · ·And a chip is an integrated circuit?
`
`14· · · · Q.· · ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · A.· · ·Most integrated circuits when they're
`
`16· ·finally processed are square --
`
`17· · · · Q.· · ·Square.· Okay.
`
`18· · · · A.· · ·-- or rectangular or, you know, they
`
`19· ·have four sides typically.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · ·How do you get square chips out of a
`
`21· ·round wafer?
`
`22· · · · A.· · ·Well, in the laboratory or in -- in an
`
`23· ·advanced lab or in manufacturing?
`
`24· · · · Q.· · ·Let's go manufacturing.
`
`25· · · · A.· · ·So for standard silicon microelectronic
`
`
`
`Page 32
`·1· ·processing, right -- so we're in, again, general
`
`·2· ·land over here [indicating], there are machines
`
`·3· ·that initiate cleavage along the areas in between
`
`·4· ·the dies on the circular substrate.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· · ·Multiple d
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