throbber
UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` ---------------------------------
`
` PALO ALTO NETWORKS, INC. ) Case
`
` and BLUE COAT SYSTEMS, INC., ) IPR2016-00159
`
` Petitioners, )
`
` vs. ) U.S. Patent No.
`
` FINJAN, INC., ) 8,677,494
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
` _________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL T. GOODRICH, Ph.D.
`
` Newport Beach, California
`
` Monday, October 17, 2016
`
` Volume I
`
` Veritext Legal Solutions
`
` Mid-Atlantic Region
`
` 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350
`
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 2
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` ---------------------------------
`
` PALO ALTO NETWORKS, INC. ) Case
`
` and BLUE COAT SYSTEMS, INC., ) IPR2016-00159
`
` Petitioners, )
`
` vs. ) U.S. Patent No.
`
` FINJAN, INC., ) 8,677,494
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
` _________________________________)
`
` Deposition of MICHAEL T. GOODRICH, Ph.D.,
`
` Volume I, taken on behalf of Petitioner at 690 Newport
`
` Center Drive, Newport Beach, California, beginning at
`
` 12:49 p.m., and ending at 2:34 p.m., Monday,
`
` October 17, 2016, before Gail E. Kennamer, CSR 4583, CCRR.
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
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`

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` A P P E A R A N C E S :
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`Page 3
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` F o r P e t i t i o n e r P a l o A l t o N e t w o r k s , I n c . :
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` C O O L E Y L L P
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` B Y : O R I O N A R M O N , E S Q .
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` 3 8 0 I n t e r l o c k e n B o u l e v a r d , S u i t e 9 0 0
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` B r o o m f i e l d , C o l o r a d o 8 0 0 2 1
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` 7 2 0 . 5 6 6 . 4 1 1 9
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` o a r m o n @ c o o l e y . c o m
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` F o r P e t i t i o n e r B l u e C o a t S y s t e m s , L L C :
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` W I L S O N S O N S I N I G O O D R I C H & R O S A T I
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` B Y : N E I L N . D E S A I , E S Q .
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` 6 3 3 W e s t F i f t h S t r e e t , S u i t e 1 5 5 0
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` L o s A n g e l e s , C a l i f o r n i a 9 0 0 7 1 - 2 0 2 7
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` 3 2 3 . 2 1 0 . 2 9 1 2
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` n d e s a i @ w s g r . c o m
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` ( C o n t i n u e d o n f o l l o w i n g p a g e . )
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

`
` A P P E A R A N C E S ( C o n t i n u e d ) :
`
` F o r P a t e n t O w n e r :
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`Page 4
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` K R A M E R L E V I N N A F T A L I S & F R A N K E L L L P
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` B Y : M I C H A E L H . L E E , E S Q .
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` 9 9 0 M a r s h R o a d
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` M e n l o P a r k , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 0 2 5
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` 6 5 0 . 7 5 2 . 1 7 1 6
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` m h l e e @ k r a m e r l e v i n . c o m
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

`
` INDEX
`
` WITNESS EXAMINATION
`
`Page 5
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` MICHAEL T. GOODRICH, Ph.D.
`
` Volume I
`
` BY MR. ARMON 7
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

`
`Page 6
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` EXHIBITS
`
` NUMBER PAGE
`
` Exhibit 1 Supplemental Declaration 7
`
` of Michael Goodrich, Ph.D.
`
` Exhibit 2 United States Patent 8
`
` 8,677,494 B2
`
` Exhibit 3 Microsoft Press 10
`
` Computer Dictionary
`
` Exhibit 4 Flat-File Table 12
`
` Exhibit 5 Declaration of Nenad 18
`
` Medvidovic, Ph.D.
`
` Exhibit 6 Plaintiff Finjan, Inc.'s 20
`
` Disclosure of Asserted Claims
`
` and Infringement Contentions
`
` and Document Production Accompanying
`
` Disclosure Pursuant to Patent
`
` L.R. 3-1 and 3-2
`
` Exhibit 7 Avast Software document 35
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` Newport Beach, California; Monday, October 17, 2016
`
` 12:49 p.m.
`
`Page 7
`
` MICHAEL T. GOODRICH, Ph.D.
`
` a witness herein, having been administered an oath, was
`
` examined, and testified as follows:
`
` MR. ARMON: Let's enter appearances, please.
`
` Orion Armon, counsel for petitioner, Palo Alto
`
` Networks.
`
` MR. DESAI: Neil Desai, counsel for Blue Coat
`
` Systems, Inc.
`
` MR. LEE: Michael Lee from Kramer, Levin
`
` representing Finjan.
`
` -EXAMINATION-
`
` MR. ARMON: All right. Sir, we're turning to
`
` IPR2016-00159 which concerns the U.S. Patent 8,677,494.
`
` Mark this as Exhibit 1, please.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for identification
`
` by the court reporter.)
`
` THE WITNESS: (Indicating.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
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`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` Q. Sir, this is the supplemental declaration served
`
` on your behalf in this case; correct?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. Is there any reason why you can't testify
`
` truthfully and accurately today concerning the opinions
`
` expressed in your declaration?
`
` A. No.
`
` MR. ARMON: Okay. Mark this as Exhibit 2,
`
` please.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for identification
`
` by the court reporter.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Sir, do you recognize Exhibit 2 as the '494
`
` patent that is the subject of this IPR proceeding?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. All right. That's for your reference, and we
`
` may turn to it here in a few minutes.
`
` Now, sir, it's your position that you were a person
`
` of ordinary skill in the art at the time this patent was
`
` filed and both before and after; right? So beginning in
`
` the 1990s and continuing on since then, your position is
`
` that you have been at least a person of ordinary skill in
`
` the art with respect to the technologies at issue in the
`
` '494 patent; correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` Q. As a person of ordinary skill in the art, sir,
`
` what's your understanding of the characteristics of a
`
` flat-file database?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: So I believe I cited to a exhibit
`
` that included a number of dictionary definitions
`
` through -- either directly or through the Declaration of
`
` Dr. Medvidovic that addresses that issue.
`
` Can I see that exhibit, please?
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. What specifically is the portion of the
`
` declaration or which exhibit are you referring to that
`
` defines --
`
` A. I think it's 2017. It's cited in my Paragraph
`
` 22.
`
` Q. This appears to be about log files, not flat
`
` files.
`
` A. That exhibit --
`
` Q. Are you testifying that --
`
` A. To my recollection, that exhibit includes a
`
` definition of a flat-file database which is relevant to --
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- my testimony.
`
` Q. Let's see if we have it here.
`
` MR. ARMON: Exhibit 3, please.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` (Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for identification
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`Page 10
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` by the court reporter.)
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` THE WITNESS: (Indicating.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. All right. Turning to Exhibit 3, which is also
`
` marked as Exhibit 2017.
`
` A. Yes. So my definition for flat-file database
`
` would be consistent with this; that is, a database that
`
` takes the form of a table where only one table can be used
`
` for each database. A flat-file database can only work
`
` with one file at a time.
`
` And in my declaration, I also cite to the Declaration
`
` of Dr. Medvidovic and mention that I agree with his
`
` definition of database, which I understand is also the
`
` construction adopted by the Court, that it is a collection
`
` of interrelated data organized according to a database
`
` schema to serve one or more applications.
`
` Q. Sir, with respect to a flat-file database, would
`
` you agree that the schema of a flat-file database is that
`
` it has rows defined by columns?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: So this -- this --
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. I'm sorry. Records composed of fields I suppose
`
` might be an accurate way of stating it.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` MR. LEE: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: So this Exhibit 2017 also has in
`
` it a definition for schema which I agree with that it's --
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. I'm sorry. Let me stop you for a second for
`
` clarity.
`
` The definition of flat-file database in Exhibit 3 was
`
` on page 4 --
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. -- of that document; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. All right. Now.
`
` A. Now I'm turning to page 8 in this document.
`
` There's a definition for schema, which I believe was also
`
` cited by Dr. Medvidovic, which is, "A description of a
`
` database to a database management system (DBMS) in the
`
` language provided by the DBMS. A schema defines aspects
`
` of the database, such as attributes (fields) and domains
`
` and parameters of the attributes."
`
` So this is --
`
` Q. You adopt that definition of schema as your own?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And how do you characterize the schema of
`
` a flat-file database as described on page 4?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` THE WITNESS: So on page 4 it talks about a
`
` flat-file database still being a database, but in this
`
` case it just has one table used for each database. So a
`
` flat-file database would be distinguished from a more
`
` general purpose database in that there is just one table
`
` for each database. Otherwise, it's the same; so it has to
`
` have the same kind of schema that a database otherwise
`
` would as well.
`
` MR. ARMON: Exhibit 4, please.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for identification
`
` by the court reporter.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Sir, would you agree that --
`
` MR. LEE: Objection.
`
` Q. -- these --
`
` MR. LEE: Form.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. -- are examples of, or representations of,
`
` flat-file databases that would meet the definition that
`
` you provided?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: Is this a document I cited in my
`
` declaration?
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. No. It's something that I created.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 13
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` A. So you're representing to me that -- I'm not
`
` sure what you're asking, actually.
`
` Q. I'm asking if you would agree that these
`
` examples would satisfy your definition of flat-file
`
` database.
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: So again, apart from this
`
` discussion of the '494 patent, I would say no, that these
`
` don't meet the definition of a flat-file database.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. And what portion of the definition is it that
`
` you're looking at that would cause you to disagree that
`
` these three examples are representative of data that could
`
` be a flat-file database?
`
` A. So what's missing is this schema. I'm not
`
` seeing in these illustrations any example of a schema that
`
` would be a description of the database to a database
`
` management system provided in the language, provided by
`
` the DBMS.
`
` All that I'm seeing in this exhibit is a table; and
`
` in this instance, three different tables that have rows
`
` and columns. But just having a table with rows and
`
` columns is not necessarily a database. You also need to
`
` have the schema.
`
` Q. So with respect to the first example on
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 14
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` Exhibit 4, why is it not enough that the rows and columns
`
` are defined? So in other words, why is that not enough to
`
` satisfy the definition of schema?
`
` A. Because there's no -- There's no other --
`
` Q. Doesn't that -- I'm sorry.
`
` Sir, if you turn to page 8.
`
` It says, "A schema defines aspects of the database,
`
` such as attributes (fields) and domains..."
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Correct?
`
` MR. LEE: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes, it says that in the
`
` definition.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. And a field is equivalent to a row, and a domain
`
` is equivalent to a column; correct?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. So is it -- Are you able to draw a depiction of
`
` what a flat-file database would require in terms of
`
` attributes in order to satisfy your definition?
`
` A. I could -- I could do that, yes.
`
` Q. So what -- Flip over Exhibit 4 and sketch what
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
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` attributes in a single table flat-file database you
`
` believe would be necessary to satisfy your definition of a
`
` flat-file database?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form. Relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: When I say I could draw, what I
`
` meant is that that's something I could describe.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Okay. So describe it.
`
` A. So what's missing in each of these examples is a
`
` schema. There's no schema that's even being shown here.
`
` It's just a table with rows and columns in each case.
`
` There's no schema that's describing the fields that's
`
` talking about the domains and the parameters. There's
`
` nothing like this in this document that you have just
`
` shown me.
`
` Q. So if with respect to the first example on
`
` Exhibit 4 there is a definition for the route number,
`
` column, the miles column, the activities column, would
`
` that suffice?
`
` A. I'm not sure I'm understanding that question.
`
` I'm sorry.
`
` Q. What schema would be necessary to add to what's
`
` labeled the flat-file model on the top of Exhibit 4 to
`
` exemplify the schema as you have described it?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Relevance.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` THE WITNESS: So again, outside of this
`
` discussion and the reference to this document that I'm
`
` just looking at for the first time, what's -- what's
`
` clearly missing is the schema. There's no data that's --
`
` that's included anywhere on this paper or even illustrated
`
` that's describing what are the fields, the attributes, the
`
` domains, and the parameters. It's just a table in each
`
` case.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. And so if the flat-file model on the top of
`
` Exhibit 4 included that information, then it would satisfy
`
` your definition of flat-file database?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'd have to see the instance, and
`
` then I could make that judgment.
`
` But based on what I'm seeing here, this would not
`
` meet the definition.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Well again, sir, I'm asking you what in your
`
` opinion would need to be added to one of these examples in
`
` order to satisfy your definition of a flat-file database.
`
` So tell me what it would need to be to be complete.
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Relevance.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that
`
` any differently than I did before.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` Can you clarify how that's different than your
`
` previous question? Because the part that's missing is the
`
`Page 17
`
` schema.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Okay. So if you were to add a schema to any one
`
` of these examples, would it then satisfy your
`
` understanding of what constitutes a flat-file database?
`
` A. It's possible that it could in that case, but it
`
` still would depend on another factor, and that is that it
`
` would have to be a table and a schema that are written in
`
` the language of a DBMS. So that's also something that
`
` would be required according to the definition we're using
`
` from Exhibit 2017.
`
` Q. Anything else?
`
` A. That certainly would be necessary requirements.
`
` I'd have to look at it some more to see if that's
`
` sufficient.
`
` (Indicating.)
`
` Q. Anything else you can think of sitting here
`
` today?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Sitting here today, nothing is
`
` coming to mind immediately.
`
` MR. ARMON: All right. Exhibit 5, please.
`
` (Continued on following page.)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` (Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for identification
`
`Page 18
`
` by the court reporter.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 5, sir?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. All right. What is it?
`
` A. It's the Declaration of Nenad Medvidovic, Ph.D.
`
` that was submitted for this case, and that I cite in my
`
` declaration.
`
` Q. Beginning in Paragraph 20; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Have you ever met Dr. Medvidovic in
`
` person?
`
` A. Not to my recollection, no.
`
` Q. Did you speak with Dr. Medvidovic via telephone
`
` concerning the declaration marked as Exhibit 5?
`
` A. Not to my recollection, no.
`
` Q. Have you had any correspondence in writing with
`
` Dr. Medvidovic concerning this declaration marked as
`
` Exhibit 5?
`
` A. Not directly to my recollection.
`
` Q. Okay. Have you had any written correspondence
`
` with Dr. Medvidovic concerning the declaration marked as
`
` Exhibit 5 indirectly?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to answer questions
`
` that would violate attorney work product issues?
`
` MR. LEE: I caution the witness not to answer
`
` anything that would reveal attorney-client privilege.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. So you can answer, sir, "Yes" or "No" whether
`
` you have had indirect communications with Dr. Medvidovic.
`
` A. It would be the substance I would not be able to
`
` answer, your saying?
`
` Q. We may have a fight about that, but that is not
`
` the question I'm asking you.
`
` A. Fair enough.
`
` I don't recall having an indirect conversation or
`
` communications with Dr. Medvidovic.
`
` Q. Are the opinions stated in your declaration,
`
` which is Exhibit 1, concerning Dr. Medvidovic's
`
` declaration based on anything other than your analysis of
`
` his declaration and the documents it cites?
`
` A. To my knowledge, just sitting here today, no.
`
` Q. It's your opinion that Dr. Medvidovic's
`
` declaration is credible and reliable, the opinions therein
`
` are credible and liable; correct?
`
` A. I believe that's a fair characterization of what
`
` I'm saying in my declaration.
`
` Q. And it was significant to you that he provides,
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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` as you characterize it, over 90 pages of analysis to
`
` support his opinion?
`
` A. That's part of the material that I -- In terms
`
` of the declaration, I'm citing to its size. So it's
`
` showing that he's provided a considerable amount of
`
` analysis and evidence for this case.
`
` Q. Okay. Turning to page -- I'm sorry -- Paragraph
`
` 23 of your declaration.
`
` You indicate that you reviewed infringement
`
` contentions from Finjan versus Websense, including claim
`
` charts and claim charts that Dr. Medvidovic created.
`
` I believe that we will find those. I will get to the
`
` correct spot.
`
` MR. ARMON: Exhibit 6.
`
` (Deposition Exhibit 6 was marked for identification
`
` by the court reporter.)
`
` THE WITNESS: (Indicating.)
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 6?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. This is the claim chart that you reference in
`
` Paragraph 23 of your declaration as having reviewed?
`
` A. Yes. It includes that claim chart.
`
` Q. Okay. You didn't create this claim chart;
`
` correct?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 21
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` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. You don't know who did create this claim chart;
`
` correct?
`
` A. In my declaration I say that this was created by
`
` Dr. Medvidovic. So I'm saying that --
`
` Q. It's not signed by Dr. Medvidovic, is it?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Is Dr. Medvidovic's name anywhere in Exhibit 6?
`
` A. I'm not immediately seeing it.
`
` Q. What was the basis for your conclusion that
`
` Dr. Medvidovic prepared Exhibit 6?
`
` A. That was something I got from the attorneys, if
`
` I'm allowed to say.
`
` Q. You don't need to tell me what the conversation
`
` was. I'm just asking who created that impression in your
`
` mind.
`
` So your answer was the attorneys?
`
` A. The attorneys, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And going back to your earlier answer,
`
` you have not spoken or corresponded with Dr. Medvidovic
`
` concerning whether he did or did not author Exhibit 6;
`
` correct?
`
` A. To my knowledge and recollection, that is
`
` correct.
`
` Q. What methodology did you use when reviewing
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 22
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` Exhibit 6 to determine whether or not the conclusions it
`
` reaches are accurate?
`
` A. So the methodology I used is to go to each of
`
` the limitations in the claim chart, read the limitation
`
` for myself, understand what it is requiring, and then look
`
` at the evidence that is cited on the right-hand portion of
`
` the chart to see if it provides sufficient evidence that
`
` that limitation is satisfied in the Websense products.
`
` Q. Did you visit each one of the URLs in Exhibit 6
`
` and study the information linked there?
`
` A. I did not go and visit each URL. I took it as
`
` the citations were given in the chart.
`
` Q. So your opinion is based upon a review of the
`
` face of the claim charts and the information contained
`
` therein?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I think that's a fair
`
` characterization.
`
` There may have been some other documents that I
`
` reviewed as well, but certainly I relied on this chart and
`
` the representations in this chart as being accurate.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Your declaration doesn't identify any other
`
` information that you referenced concerning the issue of
`
` infringement contentions in Finjan versus Websense, does
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 23
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` it?
`
` A. I don't believe I'm citing to any other
`
` documents.
`
` Q. Okay. Now, you noted, Dr. Goodrich, that the
`
` material referenced in Exhibit 6 is all publicly available
`
` marketing literature; correct?
`
` A. I don't know because I didn't go in to see if
`
` any of these links are still operative today. So I
`
` didn't -- I didn't go and verify every single one of them
`
` as still being current. I took that they were accurate as
`
` to when this was -- this chart was made.
`
` Q. Sir, as part of your review of the infringement
`
` contentions as exemplified in Exhibit 6, you didn't look
`
` at any source code for any Websense products, did you?
`
` A. No, I did not.
`
` Q. What's the best, most definitive evidence
`
` concerning the operation of software --
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. -- source code or something else?
`
` MR. LEE: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: The best evidence for how a
`
` product is functioning consists of source code,
`
` documentation, and deposition transcripts from engineers
`
` in whatever case it's being offered.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 24
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` BY MR. ARMON:
`
` Q. Did you review any deposition transcripts from
`
` Websense engineers when formulating your opinions about
`
` the issue of Websense and whether it infringed the
`
` '494 patent?
`
` A. To my recollection, I don't have any
`
` recollection of such deposition transcripts.
`
` Q. You said with respect to the issue of source
`
` code, you had not been provided source code for any
`
` Websense products; correct?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. Did you ask for source code?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Did you ask for the deposition
`
` transcripts?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. And you said that with respect to the documents
`
` that the hypertext links, that you don't recall visiting
`
` those documents to read the entire documents; correct?
`
` A. I don't recall. That's correct.
`
` Q. Do you recall whether you read any of the
`
` documents linked in the claim charts in Exhibit 6?
`
` A. Just sitting here today, I don't recall if I
`
` read them or not.
`
` Q. Dr. Goodrich, you have been a technical expert
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. - Exhibit 1098
`Palo Alto Networks, Inc. v. Finjan, Inc., IPR2016-00159
`
`

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`Page 25
`
` in other patent infringement matters before this one,
`
` correct -- or other patent matters -- this is not an
`
` infringement matter, other than this one?
`
` A. Yes. That's correct.
`
` Q. Approximately, how many total?
`
` A. Depending how you count, it's somewhere around
`
` ten to 15, in that realm.
`
` Q. Have you ever analyzed or formed opinions on the
`
` issue of infringement in a patent dispute?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. How many times do you think?
`
` A. Again, depending how you count, between two and
`
` six.
`
` Q. So you have some working understanding, then, of
`
` the process that is required to make a determination of
`
` whether a product is covered by a patent claim; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And what in your understanding at a high level
`
` is the process that you have to undertake?
`
` A. It's similar to what I just described earlier.
`
` I would look at each of the claim limitations, look at the
`
` evidence that is available to determine if that limitation
`
` is satisfied; and if each and every limitation of the
`
` claim is satisfied, then I would draw the conclusion of
`
` infringement in that case.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510

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