·1
`
`Page 1
`
`·1
`
`·2· · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`·3· · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`Page 3
`
`·4· · · · · · · Case No. IPR2016-00159
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · Patent 8,677,494
`
`·6· ·--------------------------------------------x
`
`·7· ·PALO ALTO NETWORKS, INC.,
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`·9· · · · · · · vs.
`
`10· ·FINJAN, INC.,
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`
`·4· · · COOLEY, LLP
`
`·5· · · Attorneys for Petitioner
`
`·6· · · · · 380 Interlocken Crescent, Suite 900
`
`·7· · · · · Broomfield, Colorado 80021-8023
`
`·8· · · BY:· BRIAN EUTERMOSER, ESQ.
`
`·9
`
`10
`
`12· ·--------------------------------------------x
`
`11· · · KRAMER LEVIN NAFTALIS & FRANKEL, LLP
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`12· · · Attorneys for Patent Owner
`
`13· · · · · 990 Marsh Road
`
`14· · · · · Menlo Park, California 94025
`
`16· · · · VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOHN HAWES
`
`15· · · BY:· JAMES HANNAH, ESQ.
`
`17· · · · · · · · ·New York, New York
`
`18· · · · · · · Wednesday, July 14, 2016
`
`16
`
`17
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`· · ·Reported by:
`
`23· ·Aydil M. Torres
`
`· · ·JOB NO. J0397237
`
`24
`
`25
`
`·1
`
`·2· · · · · · July 14, 2016
`
`·3· · · · · · 10:00 a.m.
`
`·4
`
`·5
`
`·6· · · · · Videotaped deposition of
`
`·7· ·JOHN HAWES, held at the offices of
`
`·8· ·Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel,
`
`·9· ·1177 Avenue of the Americas,
`
`10· ·New York, New York, pursuant to
`
`11· ·Notice, before Aydil M. Torres, a
`
`12· ·Notary Public of the State of
`
`13· ·New York.
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`18· · · ALSO PRESENT:
`
`19· · · · · Aydaline Garcia, Videographer
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
`·1
`·2· · · · · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· This is
`·3· · · · · · ·Media Number 1 of the video
`·4· · · · · · ·deposition of John Hawes in the
`·5· · · · · · ·matter of Palo Alto Networks, Inc.
`·6· · · · · · ·verse Finjan, Inc.
`·7· · · · · · · · · · My name is Aydaline Garcia,
`·8· · · · · · ·video specialist.· The court
`·9· · · · · · ·reporter is Aydil Torres.
`10· · · · · · · · · · Will the court reporter
`11· · · · · · ·please swear in the witness.
`12· ·J O H N· · H A W E S,
`13· · · · · · · the witness herein, having been
`14· · · · · · · first duly sworn by a Notary Public
`15· · · · · · · of the State of New York, was
`16· · · · · · · examined and testified as follows:
`17· ·EXAMINATION BY
`18· ·MR. HANNAH:
`19· · · · Q.· ·Good morning.
`20· · · · · · ·Can you please state your full name
`21· ·for the record?
`22· · · · A.· ·John Oliver Samuel Hawes.
`23· · · · Q.· ·And where do you work, Mr. Hawes?
`24· · · · A.· ·At Virus Bulletin.
`25· · · · Q.· ·What's your position at Virus
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 1
`
`

`
`Page 5
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·Bulletin?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Chief of operations.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·What are your responsibilities as
`·5· ·chief of operations?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Running the company, managing the
`·7· ·staff, making budgets, testing, writing
`·8· ·reviews, maintaining computer networks.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·How long have you had that
`10· ·position?
`11· · · · A.· ·Two years.
`12· · · · Q.· ·You understand why you are here
`13· ·today?
`14· · · · A.· ·I think so, yes.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Why are you here?
`16· · · · A.· ·To give evidence of the publication
`17· ·of a paper in one of our conferences.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Are you represented by counsel
`19· ·today?
`20· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I guess that's
`21· · · · · · ·you.
`22· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· (Shaking
`23· · · · · · ·head.)
`24· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No? I suppose
`25· · · · · · ·not, then.
`
`Page 6
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Can you give me a quick overview of
`·4· ·your educational background?
`·5· · · · A.· ·I have a degree from Oxford
`·6· ·University in Oriental studies.· Yeah, that's
`·7· ·about it, really.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·How about your employment
`·9· ·background?
`10· · · · A.· ·I have been with Virus Bulletin
`11· ·since 2006.· Before that, I worked for
`12· ·Sophos.
`13· · · · Q.· ·How long were you at Sophos?
`14· · · · A.· ·I started in December 2000. Shortly
`15· ·after the -- I left the university.
`16· · · · Q.· ·What did you do at Sophos?
`17· · · · A.· ·Testing antivirus software.
`18· · · · Q.· ·What was your job title?
`19· · · · A.· ·Release engineer.
`20· · · · Q.· ·For the entire duration?
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Any other responsibilities as a
`23· ·release engineer?
`24· · · · A.· ·At Sophos?
`25· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`
`Page 7
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·So just -- just testing viruses?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Did you work at Sophos' labs?
`·6· · · · A.· ·I worked in the QA Lab, which was
`·7· ·attached to the virus lab.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you have a position or did you
`·9· ·work for any other company before 2000?
`10· · · · A.· ·I had a few temporary jobs.
`11· · · · Q.· ·When did you get your degree?
`12· · · · A.· ·1999.
`13· · · · Q.· ·What did these temporary jobs
`14· ·entail?
`15· · · · A.· ·I catalogued the archive of an
`16· ·engineering firm, Oxford Instruments, I
`17· ·catalogued the stock of our record shop, mass
`18· ·records, and I worked for a computer company
`19· ·called Research Machines, again, testing
`20· ·software.
`21· · · · Q.· ·Anything related to malware before
`22· ·2000?
`23· · · · A.· ·No.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Besides your position at Sophos as
`25· ·release engineer and your working for Virus
`
`Page 8
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·Bulletin, have you had any other jobs,
`·3· ·besides the jobs prior to 2000?
`·4· · · · A.· ·I'm chairman of the board of the
`·5· ·Antimalware Standards Organization.· It's not
`·6· ·a paid job but keeps me busy.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Any other positions, any other
`·8· ·companies?
`·9· · · · A.· ·No.
`10· · · · Q.· ·What is this organization that you
`11· ·are the chairman?
`12· · · · A.· ·Antimalware Testing Standard
`13· ·Organization.· It's a California-based
`14· ·nonprofit organization.· It's -- we discuss
`15· ·how testing is performed on antimalware
`16· ·products and how it can be improved.
`17· · · · Q.· ·How long have you been doing that?
`18· · · · A.· ·I have been chairman of the board
`19· ·for about 18 months.· I have been on the
`20· ·board since 2011.· I have been active in the
`21· ·organization since it was founded in 2008.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Did you find it?· Were you one of
`23· ·the founders?
`24· · · · A.· ·No.
`25· · · · Q.· ·How many people are part of this
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 2
`
`

`
`Page 9
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·organization?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I believe around 40 companies.
`·4· ·It's a company membership basis.
`·5· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Mark Exhibit 1,
`·6· · · · · · ·please.
`·7· · · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 1, Declaration,
`·8· · · · · · · · · · marked for identification,
`·9· · · · · · · · · · as of this date.)
`10· · · · Q.· ·The court reporter just handed you
`11· ·what's been marked as Exhibit 1.
`12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`13· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· For the record,
`14· · · · · · ·Exhibit 1 is entitled "Declaration
`15· · · · · · ·of John Hawes Virus Bulletin."
`16· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`17· · · · Q.· ·Do you recognize Exhibit 1, sir?
`18· · · · A.· ·I do, yes.
`19· · · · Q.· ·What is Exhibit 1?
`20· · · · A.· ·It's a declaration I signed a few
`21· ·months ago.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Did you prepare any other
`23· ·declarations for this case?
`24· · · · A.· ·No.
`25· · · · Q.· ·Can you please explain to me the
`Page 10
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·process of preparing this declaration?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I was asked to prepare it.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Who asked you to prepare it?
`·5· · · · A.· ·I believe his name is Patrick
`·6· ·Lenihan.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·What did Patrick tell you?
`·8· · · · A.· ·I think the first thing he asked me
`·9· ·was if we had a copy of a particular paper in
`10· ·our company records, and if we could provide
`11· ·him with a scan of that, and then he asked if
`12· ·I could sign something to say that I had
`13· ·scanned that from our company records.
`14· · · · Q.· ·When did Patrick contact you?
`15· · · · A.· ·Oh, I don't know off the top of my
`16· ·head.· I would say, three months ago.
`17· ·Something like that.
`18· · · · Q.· ·So he first contacted you asking
`19· ·you for a particular article, correct?
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes, I think so.· Yes.
`21· · · · Q.· ·And then you provided that article
`22· ·to him and then later he contacted you asking
`23· ·you for a declaration; is that correct?
`24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`25· · · · Q.· ·When did he contact you -- after
`
`Page 11
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·the first time he contacted you asking you
`·3· ·for the article, when was the next time you
`·4· ·had any contact with anybody involved in this
`·5· ·case?
`·6· · · · A.· ·I think the process of finding --
`·7· ·scanning the article involved several e-mails
`·8· ·with Patrick for several weeks, and then the
`·9· ·next contact I had was probably a month or so
`10· ·ago.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Who contacted you?
`12· · · · A.· ·Brian.
`13· · · · Q.· ·What did you and Brian talk about?
`14· · · · A.· ·He asked if I would be available to
`15· ·make a deposition.
`16· · · · Q.· ·So let's back up.· So Patrick
`17· ·contacted you asking you for the article.
`18· ·How did the declaration come about?
`19· · · · A.· ·When I said I had the article, he
`20· ·said, would I be prepared to give him a copy,
`21· ·and then also to sign something to say that I
`22· ·had found and prepared that copy for him.
`23· · · · Q.· ·So this happened within that --
`24· ·those first few weeks after the first
`25· ·contact?
`
`Page 12
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Who actually wrote your
`·4· ·declaration?
`·5· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·6· · · · · · ·the form.
`·7· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So just to be clear, counsel -- I
`·9· ·guess not your counsel -- but counsel that's
`10· ·sitting here is -- can lodge objections to
`11· ·the questions.
`12· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`13· · · · Q.· ·That will be ruled on later.
`14· · · · A.· ·True.
`15· · · · Q.· ·But you are still obligated to
`16· ·answer my questions.· That's going to be
`17· ·dealt with later.· The objection will be
`18· ·dealt with at a later time by a judge.
`19· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`20· · · · Q.· ·So when he objects, you can wait
`21· ·until his objection is done, but you still
`22· ·have to answer my question, if that makes
`23· ·sense.
`24· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`25· · · · Q.· ·So let me just ask the question
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 3
`
`

`
`Page 13
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·again so the record is clear.
`·3· · · · · · ·Who wrote your declaration?
`·4· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·5· · · · · · ·the form.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think
`·7· · · · · · ·Patrick sent me a sort of basic
`·8· · · · · · ·skeleton saying these are the
`·9· · · · · · ·things you would need to say, but I
`10· · · · · · ·filled in all the details.
`11· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`12· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember what details,
`13· ·looking at Exhibit 1, that you filled in?
`14· · · · A.· ·My employer, and my job title, work
`15· ·history, details about Virus Bulletin,
`16· ·details of number of attendees of the
`17· ·conference, where it was held.· I think
`18· ·that's all.
`19· · · · Q.· ·So looking at your declaration it
`20· ·says, "Virus Bulletin is an online magazine
`21· ·about the prevention, detection, and removal
`22· ·of malware and spam."· Do you see that?
`23· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Has Virus Bulletin always been an
`25· ·online magazine?
`
`Page 14
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.· We had -- we were a physical
`·3· ·magazine until probably around ten years ago,
`·4· ·by the time I joined.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·So in 2006 it went online?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Sometime shortly prior to that. I
`·7· ·think, yes.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So 2005 time frame?
`·9· · · · A.· ·Probably, yes.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Before 2005, was it just a physical
`11· ·magazine?
`12· · · · A.· ·We also ran conferences and it was
`13· ·both physical and digital for several years
`14· ·before that, before we stopped printing.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Do you know when Virus Bulletin
`16· ·went online?
`17· · · · A.· ·Not off the top of my head, no.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Do you know when Virus Bulletin
`19· ·stopped printing?
`20· · · · A.· ·Again, not off the top of my head,
`21· ·no.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you have a rough estimate of
`23· ·when Virus Bulletin stopped printing?
`24· · · · A.· ·I would say, sometime in 2005.
`25· · · · Q.· ·It says -- in your declaration it
`
`Page 15
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·says, "Virus Bulletin is headquartered in the
`·3· ·United Kingdom."· Do you see that?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Uh-huh.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Has it always been headquartered in
`·6· ·the United Kingdom?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Where were the --
`·9· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Strike that.
`10· · · · Q.· ·You testified that Virus Bulletin
`11· ·had a printed magazine before it went online
`12· ·in 2005 sometime --
`13· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`14· · · · Q.· ·-- correct?· Where was the magazine
`15· ·distributed?
`16· · · · A.· ·By post to subscribers.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Do you know -- sitting here today,
`18· ·do you know who those subscribers were?
`19· · · · A.· ·I would say the majority of them
`20· ·were computer virus experts.
`21· · · · Q.· ·How many people were sent Virus
`22· ·Bulletin magazine in the 2005 time frame?
`23· · · · A.· ·I -- I -- I don't know.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how many people were
`25· ·sent the magazine in the 1995 time frame?
`
`Page 16
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who the people would
`·4· ·have been that the magazine would have been
`·5· ·sent to in the 1995 time frame?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Same, computer virus experts.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you know specifically who?
`·8· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·9· · · · · · ·the form.
`10· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not off the
`11· · · · · · ·top of my head.· I am sure we have
`12· · · · · · ·it in our records.
`13· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`14· · · · Q.· ·But sitting here today, you can't
`15· ·tell me?
`16· · · · A.· ·No.· Well, I could give you one or
`17· ·two names but I can't tell you all of them.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Who are the names?
`19· · · · A.· ·Ian Wally and Ricardi Berg.· Both
`20· ·people that I have spoken to that were
`21· ·subscribed and confirmed they were
`22· ·subscribers since the beginning.
`23· · · · Q.· ·When did you speak to them?
`24· · · · A.· ·In the last ten years.
`25· · · · Q.· ·Who are they?
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 4
`
`

`
`Page 17
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·Computer virus experts.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Where are they located?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Ricardi is in Amsterdam, I believe,
`·5· ·and Ian is somewhere in New York state, I
`·6· ·think.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·When is the last time that you
`·8· ·spoke to either these individuals?
`·9· · · · A.· ·Within the last week.· I work with
`10· ·them regularly, yes.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Did you talk with them before you
`12· ·prepared the declaration?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have spoken to them
`14· ·regularly over the last ten years.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Are they part of the Virus
`16· ·Bulletin?
`17· · · · A.· ·No.· Ian was the editor at one
`18· ·point.
`19· · · · Q.· ·He was the editor of Virus
`20· ·Bulletin?
`21· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`22· · · · Q.· ·How long was he the editor?
`23· · · · A.· ·I don't really know.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Has he always been located in New
`25· ·York?
`
`Page 18
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Where was he before?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Well, certainly at one point he was
`·5· ·in London where Virus Bulletin was based.· He
`·6· ·has been in several places in between.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·So when he was the editor of Virus
`·8· ·Bulletin, he was located in the U.K.; is that
`·9· ·right?
`10· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`11· · · · Q.· ·And do you know approximately when
`12· ·he was the editor?
`13· · · · A.· ·Mid-90s, I think.
`14· · · · Q.· ·In the 1995 -- or I would say, 1993
`15· ·to 1997; is that fair?
`16· · · · A.· ·Possibly, yes, yes.· We had about
`17· ·five or six editors prior to my joining.
`18· · · · Q.· ·This individual who you said is
`19· ·located in Amsterdam, what was his name
`20· ·again?
`21· · · · A.· ·Ricardi Berg.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know where he works?
`23· · · · A.· ·He works for ESET.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Has he -- did he ever work for
`25· ·Virus Bulletin?
`
`Page 19
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how long he has worked
`·4· ·for ESET?
`·5· · · · A.· ·I would -- around five years, I
`·6· ·think.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Has he always been located in
`·8· ·Amsterdam -- do you know?
`·9· · · · A.· ·I would -- I would -- I believe so.
`10· ·In the Netherlands.
`11· · · · Q.· ·In your declaration you also say,
`12· ·"Virus Bulletin has run an annual
`13· ·international conference since 1991."· Do you
`14· ·see that?
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Were you in charge of ever --
`17· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Strike that.
`18· · · · Q.· ·Were you ever in charge of running
`19· ·this conference?
`20· · · · A.· ·I -- well, jointly, in the last two
`21· ·years, yes.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever --
`23· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Strike that.
`24· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean "jointly in the
`25· ·last two years"?
`
`Page 20
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·The -- the -- two -- myself and my
`·3· ·colleague, Monti, is the editor.· We are
`·4· ·joint -- joint leaders of the company,
`·5· ·basically.· We don't have CEOs, as such.· We
`·6· ·are a team.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·So when you say "jointly," you mean
`·8· ·with another individual of Virus Bulletin --
`·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`10· · · · Q.· ·-- not another company, correct?
`11· · · · A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`12· · · · Q.· ·In your declaration you mention --
`13· ·you testified earlier that you started with
`14· ·Virus Bulletin in 2006, correct?
`15· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`16· · · · Q.· ·Had you ever attended a Virus
`17· ·Bulletin conference before 2006?
`18· · · · A.· ·Yes, I attended the 2005 conference
`19· ·in Dublin.
`20· · · · Q.· ·Have you attended any other
`21· ·conference -- any Virus Bulletin conference
`22· ·--
`23· · · · A.· ·No.
`24· · · · Q.· ·-- before 2005?
`25· · · · · · ·After 2000 -- so you said you
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 5
`
`

`
`Page 21
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·attended -- the first Virus Bulletin
`·3· ·conference you attended was in 2005, correct?
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Have you attended any conferences
`·6· ·after 2005?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Virus Bulletin conferences?
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`·9· · · · A.· ·All of them.
`10· · · · Q.· ·So from 2005 until today?
`11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`12· · · · Q.· ·In your declaration you say,
`13· ·"According to Virus Bulletin's business
`14· ·records which are maintained in the ordinary
`15· ·course of business, the paper entitled
`16· ·"Dynamic Detection and Classification of
`17· ·Computer Viruses Using General Behaviour
`18· ·Patterns by Morton Swimmer was published by
`19· ·Virus Bulletin to all 163 attendees of the
`20· ·Virus Bulletin International Conference at
`21· ·the Boston Park Plaza Hotel Towers in
`22· ·September 1995."
`23· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`25· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean in the beginning
`
`Page 22
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·of the sentence that the "Virus Bulletin
`·3· ·records that are maintained in the ordinary
`·4· ·course of business"?
`·5· · · · A.· ·We keep copies of everything we've
`·6· ·published.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·How are they maintained?
`·8· · · · A.· ·They are -- they are stored and
`·9· ·updated as required.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Where are they stored in?
`11· · · · A.· ·In the office.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Are they physical paper copies?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`14· · · · Q.· ·When is the first time you saw this
`15· ·paper that you reference here in paragraph 3?
`16· · · · A.· ·I -- I have no recollection of
`17· ·seeing it prior to looking it up when asked
`18· ·to do so.
`19· · · · Q.· ·So the first time you remember
`20· ·seeing it was about three months ago?
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who stored this paper
`23· ·in Virus Bulletin's business records?
`24· · · · A.· ·Who put it there originally?
`25· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
`
`Page 23
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who maintained the
`·4· ·paper in the business records until you
`·5· ·started in 2006?
`·6· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·7· · · · · · ·the form.
`·8· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No.
`·9· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`10· · · · Q.· ·You say in this declaration -- in
`11· ·this particular sentence you say, "It was
`12· ·published by Virus Bulletin to all 163
`13· ·attendees."· Do you see that?
`14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`15· · · · Q.· ·How did -- but you testified that
`16· ·you didn't attend this conference, correct?
`17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`18· · · · Q.· ·So how do you know that it was
`19· ·published to all 163 attendees?
`20· · · · A.· ·We have a brochure advertising the
`21· ·conference which describes what you get, if
`22· ·you register, which includes a paper copy of
`23· ·the proceedings, and that's something we've
`24· ·done for every conference, at least since
`25· ·1995 -- well, since 2005, when I went to the
`
`Page 24
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·first one.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·So you're basing this statement on
`·4· ·a paper that you saw three months ago that
`·5· ·said there was 163 attendees at the
`·6· ·conference?
`·7· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·8· · · · · · ·the form.· Mischaracterizes his
`·9· · · · · · ·testimony.
`10· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I counted a
`11· · · · · · ·list of attendees which was stored
`12· · · · · · ·alongside the conference
`13· · · · · · ·documentation.
`14· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`15· · · · Q.· ·And this -- this list of attendees,
`16· ·the first time you saw this list of attendees
`17· ·was three months ago, when you were asked to
`18· ·look for this article?
`19· · · · A.· ·As far as I can remember, yes. I
`20· ·may have looked at it before.
`21· · · · Q.· ·I mean, is it fair to say,
`22· ·certainly it was after 2006, when you started
`23· ·in Virus Bulletin?
`24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`25· · · · Q.· ·The next sentence in paragraph 3,
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 6
`
`

`
`Page 25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·you say, "The conference proceedings book
`·3· ·containing the Swimmer paper was subsequently
`·4· ·made available for private sale to
`·5· ·individuals by Virus Bulletin."
`·6· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain what you mean by
`·9· ·that?
`10· · · · A.· ·After the end of the conference, we
`11· ·make the proceedings book available to
`12· ·anybody else who wants a copy that was unable
`13· ·to attend the conference.
`14· · · · Q.· ·This is a paper version of the
`15· ·book?
`16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Was there any other way to get this
`18· ·conference proceeding book containing this
`19· ·paper, other than from Virus Bulletin, in any
`20· ·form?
`21· · · · A.· ·No.
`22· · · · Q.· ·In your declaration you don't
`23· ·provide any types of receipts for this -- the
`24· ·sale of this conference proceeding book, do
`25· ·you?
`
`Page 26
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether this Dynamic
`·4· ·Detection and Classification Computer Viruses
`·5· ·Using General Patterns was ever made
`·6· ·available online?
`·7· · · · A.· ·No.
`·8· · · · Q.· ·You don't know or it wasn't?
`·9· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Did you attach the list of
`11· ·attendees to your declaration?
`12· · · · A.· ·No.
`13· · · · Q.· ·Were you -- have you been
`14· ·compensated at all in connection with this
`15· ·proceeding?
`16· · · · A.· ·I -- my travel costs have been paid
`17· ·for and I will be billing for my time.
`18· · · · Q.· ·How much are you billing for your
`19· ·time?
`20· · · · A.· ·$1,500 a day.
`21· · · · Q.· ·Any other type of compensation for
`22· ·these proceedings?
`23· · · · A.· ·No.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Who is paying your bill?
`25· · · · A.· ·I will be sending it to Cooley.
`
`Page 27
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · Q.· ·To Cooley?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·To the law firm?
`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·How long did it take to prepare
`·7· ·this declaration, would you say?
`·8· · · · A.· ·No more than an hour.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you know whether the article was
`10· ·actually shown at the conference, say like on
`11· ·a screen?
`12· · · · A.· ·No.
`13· · · · Q.· ·So you attached the article as
`14· ·Exhibit A to your declaration.· Do you see
`15· ·that?
`16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Would it surprise you if the
`18· ·article that you attached as Exhibit A wasn't
`19· ·actually the same article that was
`20· ·distributed at the conference?
`21· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`22· · · · · · ·the form.
`23· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· ·Did you read through Exhibit A and
`25· ·compare it to anything in order to verify
`
`Page 28
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·that it was a true and correct copy, as you
`·3· ·state in your declaration?
`·4· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`·5· · · · · · ·the form.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I lined the
`·7· · · · · · ·scan with the original to make sure
`·8· · · · · · ·it was a good scan.
`·9· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`10· · · · Q.· ·And when you say "the original,"
`11· ·the original is the one that was in the
`12· ·records that you found?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The paper copy.
`14· · · · Q.· ·"Paper copy."· This is the paper
`15· ·copy that you found three months --
`16· ·approximately three months ago?
`17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`18· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Let's take a
`19· · · · · · ·quick break.
`20· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`21· · · · · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Time is
`22· · · · · · ·10:24.
`23· · · · · · · · · · We are going off the record.
`24· · · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, a recess was
`25· · · · · · ·taken at this time.)
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 7
`
`

`
`Page 29
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The time
`·3· · · · · · ·is 10:31.· We are back on the
`·4· · · · · · ·record.
`·5· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Hawes, during the break, did
`·7· ·counsel inform you whether he represents you
`·8· ·or not?
`·9· · · · · · ·Did you clarify that?
`10· · · · A.· ·No.
`11· · · · Q.· ·No.· Okay.
`12· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Counsel, do you
`13· · · · · · ·represent the witness?
`14· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· No.
`15· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`16· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Hawes, did you read the article
`17· ·that's attached to your exhibit?
`18· · · · A.· ·I skimmed it.
`19· · · · Q.· ·Are you offering any opinion
`20· ·regarding the article?
`21· · · · A.· ·No.
`22· · · · · · ·Oh, I didn't put my thing.
`23· · · · Q.· ·Have you been asked by a counselor
`24· ·or anybody else to provide any other opinions
`25· ·in this case?
`
`Page 30
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · A.· ·No.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Have you been asked by counsel or
`·4· ·anybody else to provide any other
`·5· ·declarations in this case?
`·6· · · · A.· ·No.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Earlier you testified that you
`·8· ·counted the list of attendees in order to
`·9· ·support your statement for -- in paragraph
`10· ·3 --
`11· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
`12· · · · Q.· ·-- of 163 attendees.· Other than
`13· ·counting the attendees, do you have any other
`14· ·evidence that the paper was actually
`15· ·published to the 163 attendees?
`16· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to
`17· · · · · · ·the form.
`18· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No.
`19· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`20· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever heard of "Finjan"?
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· ·In what context?
`23· · · · A.· ·Being a company involved in IT
`24· ·security.
`25· · · · Q.· ·When is the first time you heard of
`
`Page 31
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·Finjan?
`·3· · · · A.· ·I would say, in the early 2000s,
`·4· ·probably.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·In what context did you hear of
`·6· ·Finjan in the early 2000s?
`·7· · · · A.· ·I certainly recall either their
`·8· ·company or some of their product being
`·9· ·acquired by another company.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what company?
`11· · · · A.· ·I believe it -- I believe it's --
`12· ·the company -- it's a company which is now
`13· ·owned by Trust Wave.
`14· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any knowledge of the
`15· ·type of products that Finjan was creating?
`16· · · · A.· ·No.
`17· · · · Q.· ·Any other knowledge of Finjan,
`18· ·besides the fact that Trust Wave may have
`19· ·acquired some product from Finjan?
`20· · · · A.· ·I have heard there have been a
`21· ·number of patent cases.
`22· · · · Q.· ·What have you heard about those
`23· ·patent cases?
`24· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· Objection.
`25· · · · · · · · · · Relevance.
`
`Page 32
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · · · · · · · Exceeds the scope of his
`·3· · · · · · ·declaration.
`·4· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not much more
`·5· · · · · · ·than that they were happening.
`·6· ·BY MR. HANNAH:
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Have you been asked to participate
`·8· ·in any of those patent cases?
`·9· · · · A.· ·No.
`10· · · · Q.· ·Do you plan to participate in the
`11· ·patent cases?
`12· · · · A.· ·No.
`13· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Hawes, that's all the questions
`14· ·I have for you.
`15· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`16· · · · Q.· ·So thank you for your time.
`17· · · · · · · · · · MR. EUTERMOSER:· I have just
`18· · · · · · ·a few follow-up questions for you.
`19· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Oh, okay.
`20· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`21· · · · Q.· ·When was the first time that Virus
`22· ·Bulletin held the annual conference that Mr.
`23· ·Hannah asked you about?
`24· · · · A.· ·1991.
`25· · · · Q.· ·Has that conference been held every
`
`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2014, p. 8
`
`

`
`Page 33
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· ·year since then?
`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Does Virus Bulletin have records of
`·5· ·every conference, dating back to 1991?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·What are those records?
`·8· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection to
`·9· · · · · · ·form.
`10· · · · · · · · · · Also, the scope.
`11· · · · A.· ·We have a copy of proceedings book
`12· ·with -- certainly in every case that I
`13· ·checked, there is certainly a list of
`14· ·attendees, and associated materials,
`15· ·brochures, and so on.
`16· · · · Q.· ·What is a "proceeding book"?
`17· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`18· · · · · · · · · · Form.
`19· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It's a bound
`20· · · · · · ·copy of all the papers that
`21· · · · · · ·accompany the presentations given.
`22· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`23· · · · Q.· ·You just mentioned "brochure."
`24· ·What are those brochures?
`25· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`
`Page 34
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · · · · · · · Scope.
`·3· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Advertising
`·4· · · · · · ·material.
`·5· · · · · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· I'm sorry?
`·6· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Advertising
`·7· · · · · · ·material.
`·8· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`·9· · · · Q.· ·What types of advertising materials
`10· ·related to conferences did Virus Bulletin
`11· ·produce?
`12· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`13· · · · · · · · · · Form.
`14· · · · · · · · · · Outside the scope?
`15· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Paper brochure
`16· · · · · · ·basically sums up the location and
`17· · · · · · ·content of the conference and also
`18· · · · · · ·has a -- the agenda.
`19· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`20· · · · Q.· ·Was one of the brochures
`21· ·distributed for the 1995 conference?
`22· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`23· · · · · · · · · · Form.
`24· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`25· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`
`Page 35
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · Q.· ·What was the content of that
`·3· ·brochure?
`·4· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`·5· · · · · · · · · · Form.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · Outside the scope.
`·7· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It said where
`·8· · · · · · ·the conference was and how to
`·9· · · · · · ·register for it and how the
`10· · · · · · ·schedule of presentations.
`11· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`12· · · · Q.· ·So you mention conference
`13· ·proceedings book, the list of attendees, and
`14· ·brochure, and advertising materials.
`15· ·Anything else related to the annual
`16· ·conferences that were stored in Virus
`17· ·Bulletin's records?
`18· · · · · · · · · · MR. HANNAH:· Objection.
`19· · · · · · · · · · Form.
`20· · · · · · · · · · Outside the scope.
`21· · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· We
`22· · · · · · ·occasionally have additional papers
`23· · · · · · ·that arrive late, too late to be
`24· · · · · · ·printed in the book that are kept
`25· · · · · · ·separately, other, other
`
`Page 36
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·John Hawes
`·2· · · · · · ·collateral, you could say, mugs,
`·3· · · · · · ·and things that we give away to
`·4· · · · · · ·attendees.
`·5· ·BY MR. EUTERMOSER:
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Who maintain