John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`· ·
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` · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`· · · · · · · · · ----------------------
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`· · · · · · · · ·PALO ALTO NETWORKS, INC.,
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·FINJAN, INC.,
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2016-00159
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 8,677,494
`· · · · · · · · ·--------------------------
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`· · · · · · · · · · SYMANTEC CORP., and
`· · · · · · · · · BLUE COAT SYSTEMS, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·FINJAN, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`··
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` · · · · · · · ---------------------------
`· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR 2015-01892
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 8,677,494
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`··
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` · ·--------------------------------------------------
`· · ·DATE:· November 30, 2016
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`· · ·TIME:· 10:00 a.m.
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`· · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF JOHN HAWES, held at the
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`· · ·offices of Cooley LLP, 1114 Sixth Avenue, New
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`· · ·York, New York, pursuant to Agreement, before Hope
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`· · ·Menaker, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of
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`· · ·the State of New York.
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`(415) 362-4346(415) 362-4346
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`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2045, p. 1
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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`·1
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`·2· ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·3· ·BRYAN CAVE, LLP
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`· · ·Attorneys for the Petitioner
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`·4· · · Symantec Corporation
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`· · · · · 1290 Avenue of the Americas
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`·5· · · · New York, New York· 10104-3300
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`· · ·BY:· ALEXANDER WALDEN, ESQ.
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· ·COOLEY LLP
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`· · ·Attorneys for Petitioner - Palo Alto Networks
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`·9· · · · 380 Interlocken Crescent
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`· · · · · Suite 900
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`10· · · · Broomfield, Colorado 80021-8023
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`· · ·BY:· BRIAN EUTERMOSER, ESQ.
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`11
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`12· ·KRAMER LEVIN NAFTALIS & FRANKEL LLP
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`· · ·Attorneys for Patent Owners - Finjan, Inc.
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`13· · · · 1177 Avenue of the Americas
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`· · · · · New York, New York· ·10036
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`14· ·BY:· SHANNON HEDVAT, ESQ.
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`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·The first piece of evidence that I
`·3· ·provided for this case, the paper, the Morton
`·4· ·Swimmer's 1995 paper in the Virus Bulletin
`·5· ·conference.
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·So as you know from your first
`·7· ·deposition, I'll be asking you some questions.· If
`·8· ·there's anything that you need clarity on, I ask
`·9· ·that you ask for clarification and if not, I'll --
`10· ·the mutual understanding would be that you have no
`11· ·questions about what my question is asking you.
`12· · · · A.· · ·Okay.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·Is there any reason you feel that you
`14· ·cannot give your best and most accurate testimony
`15· ·today?
`16· · · · A.· · ·No.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·When were you first contacted about
`18· ·having to give this deposition today?
`19· · · · A.· · ·I guess it was mid-October I think.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Of this year?
`21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Who contacted you?
`23· · · · A.· · ·Brian.
`24· · · · Q.· · ·What did he tell you about this
`25· ·deposition?
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`Page 3
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`·1
`·2· · · · · · · ·JOHN HAWES, called as a witness,
`·3· · · · having been duly sworn on November 30, 2016,
`·4· · · · by a Notary Public, was examined and
`·5· · · · testified as follows:
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·The Pentagon
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Abingdon Science Park
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Abingdon Oxon UK
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·(Business)
`10
`11· ·EXAMINATION BY MS. HEDVAT:
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Good morning.
`13· · · · A.· · ·Hi.
`14· · · · Q.· · ·May I ask you to state your name for
`15· ·the record, please.
`16· · · · A.· · ·My name is John Hawes.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·Thank you, Mr. Hawes.
`18· · · · · · · ·Do you understand why you're here
`19· ·today?
`20· · · · A.· · ·I think so.
`21· · · · Q.· · ·Have you been deposed before?
`22· · · · A.· · ·I have.
`23· · · · Q.· · ·And how many times?
`24· · · · A.· · ·Once.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·In what context?
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`Page 5
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·That I might be required to give
`·3· ·another deposition.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·And when you were contacted initially
`·5· ·to work on these cases, who contacted you?
`·6· · · · A.· · ·Brian.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·And what did he tell you your
`·8· ·assignment was?
`·9· · · · A.· · ·I was asked to provide a scan of the
`10· ·Morton Swimmer paper.· That was the initial thing,
`11· ·first thing I was asked to do.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·When did he contact you about that?
`13· · · · A.· · ·Early this year I think.
`14· · · · Q.· · ·Did you meet with anyone to prepare
`15· ·for your deposition today?
`16· · · · A.· · ·Not really.· We had a brief
`17· ·conversation while we were waiting for you guys to
`18· ·arrive.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·For clarification, who is "we"?
`20· · · · A.· · ·Myself, Brian, and I'm sorry -- Alex.
`21· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 1 was marked at
`22· · · · this time.)
`23· · · · Q.· · ·You have been handed what's been
`24· ·marked as Exhibit 1.· Do you recognize this
`25· ·document?
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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 6
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·And what is this document?
`·4· · · · A.· · ·I think this is the second -- yes,
`·5· ·this is a piece of paper that I signed in Denver
`·6· ·declaring that some of the documents that I
`·7· ·provided were what they claim to be.
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·If I could direct your attention to
`·9· ·the third page of this document.· Is that your
`10· ·signature?
`11· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it is.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·So, if I could direct your attention
`13· ·to Paragraph 2 of this declaration, it states that
`14· ·you are the chief of operations of Virus Bulletin.
`15· · · · · · · ·Is that your current position?
`16· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·What does your role entail in that
`18· ·position?
`19· · · · A.· · ·I essentially run the company.· I set
`20· ·budgets.· I manage the team.· I decide strategy
`21· ·and direction.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·How long have you held that position?
`23· · · · A.· · ·Since mid 2014.
`24· · · · Q.· · ·Were you at Virus Bulletin before
`25· ·2014?
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`Page 8
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`·1
`·2· ·first declaration or second?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·The second -- well, they're both
`·4· ·pretty much the same process.
`·5· · · · Q.· · ·What did you understand the purpose
`·6· ·was of scanning those documents?
`·7· · · · A.· · ·To provide supporting evidence that
`·8· ·the original document, that the Morton Swimmer
`·9· ·paper was published by us.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·And the documents that you provide
`11· ·with this declaration here, those could have been
`12· ·located with your first declaration during that
`13· ·time frame?
`14· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`15· · · · A.· · ·Sorry, could have been located?
`16· · · · Q.· · ·They could have been -- let me
`17· ·retract.
`18· · · · · · · ·So you mentioned that you scanned in
`19· ·documents in connection with this declaration,
`20· ·correct?
`21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·And the scanning of those documents
`23· ·could have been performed, for example, at the
`24· ·time frame when you submitted your first
`25· ·declaration in these proceedings?
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`Page 7
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·What positions did you hold?
`·4· · · · A.· · ·I was originally technical consultant
`·5· ·and subsequently test team director.
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·During what time frame did you hold
`·7· ·those positions?
`·8· · · · A.· · ·I started with VB in 2006 and I think
`·9· ·they made me test team director in around 2010.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·What -- where did you work prior to
`11· ·2006?
`12· · · · A.· · ·I worked at Sophos.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·In what capacity?
`14· · · · A.· · ·I was a test engineer.
`15· · · · Q.· · ·What did that role entail?
`16· · · · A.· · ·Testing anti-virus products, QA.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·So when you were contacted about this
`18· ·declaration in front of you, what specifically
`19· ·were you asked to do?
`20· · · · A.· · ·I was asked -- I had previously been
`21· ·asked to provide scans of several documents and
`22· ·then I was asked to sign this piece of paper
`23· ·confirming that they were scans of those
`24· ·documents.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·And that was with respect to your
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`Page 9
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·Could have been.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Now, could you direct your attention
`·4· ·back to Paragraph 2 in the declaration in front of
`·5· ·you.
`·6· · · · A.· · ·Okay.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·It states towards the end that "Virus
`·8· ·Bulletin has run an annual international
`·9· ·conference on malware, anti-malware and related
`10· ·subjects since 1999."
`11· · · · A.· · ·1991.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Sorry.
`13· · · · A.· · ·1991.
`14· · · · Q.· · ·Sorry, 1991, excuse me.· Thank you.
`15· · · · · · · ·Have you ever attended any of these
`16· ·annual conferences?
`17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· I've attended every one since
`18· ·2005.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·In what capacity have you attended
`20· ·those conferences?
`21· · · · A.· · ·In 2005, in Dublin.· I was an
`22· ·employee of Sophos.· So I was a delegate at the
`23· ·conference and at the subsequent 11, I think.
`24· ·I've been an employee of Virus Bulletin so I have
`25· ·been helping to run the conference.
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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 10
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`·1
`·2· · · · Q.· · ·Then in Paragraph 2 you also mention
`·3· ·that "Virus Bulletin is an online magazine."
`·4· · · · · · · ·When did it first become an online
`·5· ·magazine?
`·6· · · · A.· · ·Currently we are entirely online.
`·7· ·Previously we had published paper editions. I
`·8· ·think we stopped publishing the paper editions in
`·9· ·2006 and --
`10· · · · Q.· · ·When did you -- sorry.
`11· · · · A.· · ·And by that point we were already
`12· ·publishing everything online as well, so there was
`13· ·a period of overlap.
`14· · · · Q.· · ·When did you first -- when did Virus
`15· ·Bulletin start publishing the magazine, in
`16· ·general, not online, just in paper?
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`18· · · · A.· · ·Off the top of my head I'm not sure,
`19· ·but it was the first thing we did.· So it was
`20· ·before the conference started so before 1991.
`21· · · · Q.· · ·The online magazine, today, who has
`22· ·access to it?
`23· · · · A.· · ·It's freely available to anybody on
`24· ·the Internet.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·Prior to the magazine being online,
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`·1
`·2· ·matter of course to confirm that it's the same
`·3· ·declaration.
`·4· · · · · · · ·Can you confirm that the Exhibit 2
`·5· ·that's been handed to you is the same as the first
`·6· ·three pages of Exhibit 1 that's been handed to
`·7· ·you?
`·8· · · · A.· · ·It certainly looks to be, yes.
`·9· · · · Q.· · ·So if I could direct your attention
`10· ·back to Exhibit 1, in particular Paragraph 3 --
`11· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·-- where you reference Exhibit A,
`13· ·which is I believe Page 4 or 5.
`14· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.
`15· · · · Q.· · ·What is Exhibit A?
`16· · · · A.· · ·That's the first declaration that I'd
`17· ·signed previously.
`18· · · · Q.· · ·And then in Paragraph 4 of Exhibit A,
`19· ·your most recent declaration, you state that in
`20· ·your October 15th, 2015 declaration "the paper
`21· ·entitled, Dynamic Detection and Classification of
`22· ·Computer Viruses Using General Behavior Patterns
`23· ·was published," and then couple of lines down it
`24· ·says, "September 1995."
`25· · · · · · · ·What is the basis for your knowledge
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`Page 11
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`·1
`·2· ·who had access to it when it was in print?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·We had areas of the website which
`·4· ·were available only to paying subscribers and
`·5· ·likewise it was only available to paying
`·6· ·subscribers.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·What's the basis of your knowledge
`·8· ·for this?
`·9· · · · A.· · ·My working for the company.
`10· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 2 was marked at
`11· · · · this time.)
`12· · · · Q.· · ·You have been handed what's marked as
`13· ·Exhibit 2.
`14· · · · · · · ·Do you recognize this document?
`15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`16· · · · · · · ·Is this not the same one?
`17· · · · Q.· · ·What is this document?
`18· · · · · · · ·It's not a trick.· I just want to
`19· ·confirm, unless would you like to state on the
`20· ·record, that the same was submitted in both
`21· ·proceedings, whatever --
`22· · · · A.· · ·The piece of paper that I signed in
`23· ·Denver.
`24· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Is this -- again, Mr. Hawes,
`25· ·this is not a matter of trickery, this is just a
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`·1
`·2· ·of this statement?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·The records of my company.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·What are those records?
`·5· · · · A.· · ·We keep copies of all the conference
`·6· ·books that we have produced for each conference
`·7· ·going back to the very beginning in 1991.· They're
`·8· ·stored in an archive which we reference quite
`·9· ·regularly.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·How do you know, as you state in
`11· ·Paragraph 4 of your declaration, that the paper
`12· ·you reference was quote/unquote published to all
`13· ·163 attendees of the conference in September 1995?
`14· · · · A.· · ·It's our standard business practice
`15· ·that we produce a book of the proceedings that is
`16· ·provided to everybody that attends the conference.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·Did you attend that conference in
`18· ·September 1995?
`19· · · · A.· · ·I did not.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Did you speak with anyone who did
`21· ·attend that conference?
`22· · · · A.· · ·I spoke to many people who attended
`23· ·that conference.
`24· · · · Q.· · ·Specifically about that conference?
`25· · · · A.· · ·I -- yes, I would say it's very
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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 14
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`·1
`·2· ·likely that I've spoken to people who attended
`·3· ·that particular conference.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Did you speak with any of them in
`·5· ·preparing this declaration?
`·6· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`·7· · · · A.· · ·I wasn't really.· In preparing this
`·8· ·declaration I mentioned to some of them that I had
`·9· ·been asked to give a declaration about that
`10· ·particular conference.
`11· · · · Q.· · ·The last sentence of Paragraph 4 of
`12· ·your declaration you state that "The paper was
`13· ·subsequently made available for purchase by Virus
`14· ·Bulletin."
`15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· · ·What does that mean, for a paper to
`17· ·be available for purchase?
`18· · · · A.· · ·So after the conference is over, we
`19· ·keep several copies of the book because people who
`20· ·were unable to attend or for whatever reason,
`21· ·quite often want copies of it so we make it
`22· ·available for people to purchase separate from
`23· ·attending the conference.
`24· · · · · · · ·It's also considered to be cheaper
`25· ·than attending the conference just to buy the
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`·1
`·2· ·particular about the preparation of the
`·3· ·proceedings book in the connection with this
`·4· ·declaration?
`·5· · · · A.· · ·No.
`·6· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 3 was marked at
`·7· · · · this time.)
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·You've been handed what's marked as
`·9· ·Exhibit 3.
`10· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.
`11· · · · Q.· · ·Do you recognize this document?
`12· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·What is it?
`14· · · · A.· · ·It's the first declaration that I
`15· ·signed relating to the Morton Swimmer paper.
`16· · · · Q.· · ·The second page of that document, is
`17· ·that your signature?
`18· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it is.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·And is that the same declaration
`20· ·that's included as Exhibit A to Exhibit 1 of this
`21· ·deposition?
`22· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it is.
`23· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Thank you.
`24· · · · · · · ·I'm still going to direct your
`25· ·attention back to Exhibit 1, then, in particular
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`·1
`·2· ·book.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know anyone who purchased the
`·4· ·proceedings book that you referenced in Paragraph
`·5· ·4 of your declaration?
`·6· · · · A.· · ·No, I don't.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·What exactly is a proceedings book?
`·8· · · · A.· · ·So, the conference mainly consists of
`·9· ·a number of presentations, somewhere around 50 at
`10· ·the moment.· It varies from year to year depending
`11· ·on the setup and each of those the main
`12· ·presentations are accompanied by a paper and those
`13· ·are all collected in book form which may be a ring
`14· ·bound or fully bound book; and it also contains
`15· ·other information about the conference, location
`16· ·and so on.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·Who prepares a proceedings book?
`18· · · · A.· · ·The Virus Bulletin team.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know who prepared the
`20· ·proceedings book for the specific conference in
`21· ·September 1995 that you reference?
`22· · · · A.· · ·I do not.· I know within three or
`23· ·four people, but I could not say which one in
`24· ·particular did all the work.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·You didn't speak with anyone in
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`·1
`·2· ·Paragraph 5.
`·3· · · · A.· · ·Okay.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·You state in the first sentence that
`·5· ·"A copy of the Swimmer paper including this
`·6· ·Exhibit A is part of the conference proceedings
`·7· ·book that was prepared by Virus Bulletin employees
`·8· ·in 1995."
`·9· · · · · · · ·Again, you did not attend the
`10· ·conference in 1995, correct?
`11· · · · A.· · ·Correct.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·You testified earlier that you have
`13· ·you did not speak with any of the employees that
`14· ·prepared the proceedings book for that 1995
`15· ·conference, correct?
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Objection,
`17· · · · mischaracterizes his testimony.
`18· · · · A.· · ·I spoke to them.· I did not question
`19· ·them about the preparation of the book.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·So you testified earlier you did not
`21· ·speak with them in connection with your
`22· ·preparation of this declaration?
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`24· · · · A.· · ·I spoke to them in connection with
`25· ·the declaration because, as I said, I mentioned to
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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 18
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`·1
`·2· ·them that I was being -- I had been asked to give
`·3· ·a declaration.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· But do you know exactly who
`·5· ·the employees are who prepared the proceedings
`·6· ·book for the 1995 conference?
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`·8· · · · A.· · ·I know who the employees were at that
`·9· ·time.· I don't know which of them were involved in
`10· ·that particular.· I can -- I would assume it would
`11· ·be the editor who did most of the work which is
`12· ·how it has been for at least the last 12 years.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·Then you also state at the end of the
`14· ·first sentence in Paragraph 5 of your declaration,
`15· ·that "The proceedings book has been kept at Virus
`16· ·Bulletin's offices ever since."
`17· · · · · · · ·What do you mean by it's been kept at
`18· ·the offices?
`19· · · · A.· · ·So after the conference is over, we
`20· ·bring home any spare copies of the book.· We
`21· ·actually -- we tend to print 10 to 20 percent over
`22· ·what we expect we will need because we want to
`23· ·have some available to -- for people that want
`24· ·them later.· We take those copies home.· We have a
`25· ·couple of master copies that we keep in our main
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`·1
`·2· ·them.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Direct your attention to Paragraph 6
`·4· ·of your declaration.· You reference an Exhibit B.
`·5· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·What is Exhibit B?· It starts on Page
`·7· ·21.
`·8· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it's a list of the attendees of
`·9· ·the conference.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·When did you retrieve this document?
`11· · · · A.· · ·Shortly after the previous
`12· ·declaration.· I was asked during the declaration
`13· ·(sic) who had attended the conference and I said I
`14· ·didn't know but I could find out and I was
`15· ·interested so I went and found out.
`16· · · · Q.· · ·You stated you were asked during the
`17· ·declaration, did you mean you were asked during
`18· ·your deposition?
`19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Were you directed later to then
`21· ·retrieve this document by anyone?
`22· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· I was asked for a scan of it.
`23· · · · Q.· · ·Who asked you to scan that?
`24· · · · A.· · ·Brian.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·When did he ask you to do that?
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`Page 19
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`·1
`·2· ·office for reference and we keep the spares in
`·3· ·storage in the same building.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Who monitors the storage, if anyone?
`·5· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to form.
`·6· · · · A.· · ·At the moment it would be my
`·7· ·colleague, Allison Sketchly who maintains all our
`·8· ·archives.
`·9· · · · Q.· · ·How long has she been in that
`10· ·position?
`11· · · · A.· · ·Around 10 years.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know who held that position
`13· ·prior to her?
`14· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· Her name is Bernadette.
`15· · · · Q.· · ·Did Bernadette oversee the storage of
`16· ·the records and the proceedings book during that
`17· ·time?
`18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·Then at the end of the Paragraph 5 of
`20· ·your declaration, you reference "Virus Bulletin's
`21· ·regularly conducted business activity."
`22· · · · · · · ·What do you mean?
`23· · · · A.· · ·Well, we hold a conference every year
`24· ·and it produces a proceedings book every year, so
`25· ·every year we take those books and we look after
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·I expect it was sometime around
`·3· ·September, October of this year.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·This year, okay.
`·5· · · · · · · ·And in Paragraph 6 of your
`·6· ·declaration, you state that Exhibit B is a true
`·7· ·and correct copy of a list of a 163 delegates or
`·8· ·attendees who registered to attend the 1995
`·9· ·conference.
`10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`11· · · · Q.· · ·What's your basis for stating that
`12· ·it's a true and correct copy?
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`14· · · · A.· · ·I personally took the pages from the
`15· ·1995 book that we keep in our archives and I
`16· ·scanned them and I compared the two to make sure
`17· ·it was a good scan.
`18· · · · Q.· · ·What is a delegate exactly?
`19· · · · A.· · ·Someone who attends conferences.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·You also mention in the same sentence
`21· ·of Paragraph 6 that these are 163 delegates who
`22· ·registered to attend the conference.
`23· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· So the proceedings book is
`24· ·published -- it's printed before the conference,
`25· ·obviously, because we have to have copies ready.
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2045, p. 6
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`

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`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 22
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`·1
`·2· ·Registration for the conference remains open right
`·3· ·up until the end of the conference, really, so we
`·4· ·quite often get some people turning up on the door
`·5· ·that are not included in the list because it's
`·6· ·already been printed.
`·7· · · · · · · ·So we quite often we would have an
`·8· ·addendum to the list with extra people that have
`·9· ·turned up, if we felt that was necessary.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·So this list in Exhibit B of 163
`11· ·delegates were solely those who registered to
`12· ·attend as of a certain date prior to the
`13· ·conference?
`14· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· These were people that paid,
`15· ·that bought tickets probably up to about a month
`16· ·before.
`17· · · · Q.· · ·There's no indication on Exhibit B
`18· ·whether any of them attended the conference?
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`20· · · · A.· · ·No.· They merely paid to attend,
`21· ·that's all.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Then in the second sentence of
`23· ·Paragraph 6 of your declaration, you state that
`24· ·"The list was created by Virus Bulletin employees
`25· ·in 1995."
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`Page 24
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`·1
`·2· · · · · · · ·No.· This one has a page missing --
`·3· ·or it's in a different order perhaps.· Yes.
`·4· · · · · · · ·So Exhibit 1 has the same pages, but
`·5· ·in a different order.
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Going back to Paragraph 6 of
`·7· ·your declaration, Exhibit 1.
`·8· · · · · · · ·You state that "Virus Bulletin
`·9· ·creates and maintains delegate lists for its
`10· ·annual conferences in the course of its regular
`11· ·conducted business activity."
`12· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·Does that refer to the way in which
`14· ·Virus Bulletin operates today?
`15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· We still produce a list like
`16· ·this.· It's no longer printed.
`17· · · · · · · ·I believe the last -- I think last
`18· ·year was the last printed one.· This year we put
`19· ·it all online, so it can be updated right to the
`20· ·last minute.
`21· · · · Q.· · ·You were not employed at Virus
`22· ·Bulletin in 1995, correct?
`23· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· · ·Accessing this list of 163 registered
`25· ·attendees, this would have been accessible prior
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`·1
`·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know who the employees were
`·4· ·who created this list?
`·5· · · · A.· · ·Again, it would be one of two or
`·6· ·three people who were employees at the time.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·Did you speak with any of them in
`·8· ·preparing your declaration?
`·9· · · · A.· · ·I did speak to them.
`10· · · · Q.· · ·But did you speak with them in
`11· ·connection with their preparation of the list?
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`13· · · · A.· · ·No, I did not.
`14· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 4 was marked at
`15· · · · this time.)
`16· · · · Q.· · ·Mr. Hawes, you've been handed what's
`17· ·been marked as Exhibit 4.
`18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`19· · · · Q.· · ·Is this -- what is this document?
`20· · · · A.· · ·This is the delegate list from the
`21· ·1995 Virus Bulletin conference.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·Is this the same list that we were
`23· ·just discussing in connection with Exhibit B to
`24· ·Exhibit 1 of this deposition?
`25· · · · A.· · ·I think so.
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`·1
`·2· ·to October of 2005 to retrieve, correct?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·This list?
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Yes.
`·5· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· It was in the book, so it would
`·6· ·have been available since 1995.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·The book that you're referring to,
`·8· ·did that also contain what was exhibit -- what was
`·9· ·an exhibit to your first declaration in this
`10· ·proceeding?
`11· · · · A.· · ·The Morton Swimmer paper, yes.
`12· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have any confirmation that any
`13· ·of the 163 registered to attend delegates to the
`14· ·1995 conference ever received the proceedings
`15· ·book?
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`17· · · · A.· · ·Do I have any --
`18· · · · Q.· · ·Confirmation.· Firsthand knowledge,
`19· ·excuse me.
`20· · · · A.· · ·Yes, yes.· I know of at least two
`21· ·people who have full collections of Virus Bulletin
`22· ·magazines and conference books all the way back.
`23· · · · Q.· · ·Who are those two people?
`24· · · · A.· · ·One of them is Ian Whalley,
`25· ·W-H-A-L-L-E-Y, former editor.· The other one is
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`
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`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2045, p. 7
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`

`
`
`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 26
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`·1
`·2· ·Righard Zweinenberg.· R-I-G-H-A-R-D,
`·3· ·Z-W-E-I-N-E-N-B-E-R-G.
`·4· · · · · · · ·I have seen both of their archives.
`·5· · · · Q.· · ·Who are each of those individuals?
`·6· · · · A.· · ·One is a former editor of Virus
`·7· ·Bulletin and one is a prominent anti-virus
`·8· ·researcher.
`·9· · · · Q.· · ·Are either of them one of the 163
`10· ·delegates identified on Exhibit B to your
`11· ·declaration?
`12· · · · A.· · ·No, I don't think so.· But Ian was
`13· ·the editor of Virus Bulletin at this time, so he
`14· ·would probably not have been included in the list
`15· ·of delegates as an employee of Virus Bulletin.
`16· · · · Q.· · ·So if I could direct your attention
`17· ·to Paragraph 7 of your declaration, you reference
`18· ·an Exhibit C.
`19· · · · · · · ·Who directed you, if anyone, to
`20· ·obtain a copy of Exhibit C?
`21· · · · A.· · ·Brian asked me to provide a scan of
`22· ·it.· I retrieved it myself.
`23· · · · Q.· · ·When did he ask you to scan it?
`24· · · · A.· · ·Shortly after the previous
`25· ·deposition.· I brought it with me, it seemed
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`·1
`·2· · · · Q.· · ·Used to?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·We have in the last -- at some point
`·4· ·in the last three years we have decided not to do
`·5· ·that anymore because print is dead but we still
`·6· ·produce a brochure which is distributed
`·7· ·electronically.
`·8· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know anyone who received a
`·9· ·copy of Exhibit C, if anyone, at the 1995
`10· ·conference?
`11· · · · A.· · ·I do not.· The purpose of it was to
`12· ·attract people's attention to the conference so
`13· ·that hopefully they would then attend.· I don't
`14· ·know how effective it was.
`15· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit 5 was marked at
`16· · · · this time.)
`17· · · · Q.· · ·You have been handed what's marked as
`18· ·Exhibit 5.
`19· · · · A.· · ·Uh-huh.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Do you recognize this document?
`21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·And what is it?
`23· · · · A.· · ·It's the brochure we were just
`24· ·discussing.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·So this is the same as what's marked
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`·1
`·2· ·interesting to show to him.
`·3· · · · Q.· · ·What exactly is Exhibit C?
`·4· · · · A.· · ·Let me check that it's the right
`·5· ·thing.
`·6· · · · Q.· · ·Page 29.
`·7· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it's a brochure.· We basically
`·8· ·produce a brochure for each of our conferences
`·9· ·which details the location, the sort of things
`10· ·we'll be talking about, possibly some of the most
`11· ·interesting speakers, depending on when the
`12· ·brochure was produced.
`13· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know in particular, as you
`14· ·reference here that the brochure was created by
`15· ·Virus Bulletin employees in 1995, who those
`16· ·specific employees were?
`17· · · · A.· · ·I know who the team was at that time.
`18· ·I couldn't say who was involved in this particular
`19· ·project.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·Then you state that towards the end
`21· ·of Paragraph 7 of your declaration that "Virus
`22· ·Bulletin distributes brochures for its annual
`23· ·conferences as an insert in various industry
`24· ·publications."
`25· · · · A.· · ·We used to.
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`·1
`·2· ·as Exhibit C to Exhibit 1 of this deposition?
`·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it is.
`·4· · · · Q.· · ·Thank you.
`·5· · · · · · · ·If I could direct your attention to
`·6· ·Paragraph 8 of your declaration, and then in
`·7· ·particular, you reference Exhibit D.
`·8· · · · · · · ·If you could turn to Page begins on
`·9· ·Page 36.
`10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`11· · · · Q.· · ·What is Exhibit D?
`12· · · · A.· · ·It's a copy of an issue of the Virus
`13· ·Bulletin magazine from 1995, November issue.
`14· · · · Q.· · ·Who directed you, if anyone, to scan
`15· ·this document or include this document with your
`16· ·declaration?
`17· · · · A.· · ·Brian.
`18· · · · Q.· · ·What did he ask you in particular in
`19· ·connection with retrieving this document?
`20· · · · A.· · ·I believe he just asked me for a scan
`21· ·of it.
`22· · · · Q.· · ·You state in Paragraph 8 of your
`23· ·declaration "This is a true and correct copy of
`24· ·the November 1995 issue of Virus Bulletin
`25· ·magazine."
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`Patent Owner Finjan, Inc. - Ex. 2045, p. 8
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`

`
`
`John HawesJohn Hawes
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`November 30, 2016November 30, 2016
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`Page 30
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`·1
`·2· · · · · · · ·What's the basis for your statement
`·3· ·that it's a true and correct copy?
`·4· · · · A.· · ·I compared the scan with the original
`·5· ·magazine.· We keep an archive of all the old
`·6· ·magazine issues.
`·7· · · · Q.· · ·Who prepared the scan?
`·8· · · · A.· · ·My colleague, Allison Sketchly.
`·9· · · · Q.· · ·Did you oversee her scanning the -- a
`10· ·copy of Exhibit D?
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. EUTERMOSER:· Object to the form.
`12· · · · A.· · ·I didn't watch her doing it.· I gave
`13· ·her the magazine and I said scan it and then I
`14· ·compared the scan with what was produced with the
`15· ·original.
`16· · · · Q.· · ·Then you also state in Paragraph 8 of
`17· ·your declaration that "Exhibit D was distributed
`18· ·by mail to all Virus Bulletin subscribers."
`19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.
`20· · · · Q.· · ·What's the basis for your knowledge
`21· ·of that statement?
`22· · · · A.· · ·How we've always done our business
`23· ·when we were publishing printed magazines, a copy
`24· ·was sent by mail to all subscribers.
`25· · · · Q.· · ·You were not employed by Virus
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`·1
`·2· ·discussed in-depth with our long-term subscribers
`·3· ·about how they felt about this move to make sure
`·4· ·we were doing the right thing.
`·5· · · · Q.· · ·Did you speak with anyone in
`·6· ·particular who had firsthand