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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`LG ELECTRONICS, INC.; LG :
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`ELECTRONICS USA, INC.; LG :
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`ELECTRONICS MOBILECOMM USA, INC. : Case No.
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` vs. : IPR2015-01984
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`CORE WIRELESS : Patent No.
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 8,434,020
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`LG ELECTRONICS, INC.; LG :
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`ELECTRONICS USA, INC.; LG :
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`ELECTRONICS MOBILECOMMUSA, INC. : Case No.
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` vs. : IPR2015-01985
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`CORE WIRELESS : Patent No.
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 8,713,476
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` Washington, D.C.
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` Wednesday, September 7, 2016
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`Deposition of:
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` SCOTT DENNING
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`Called for oral examination by counsel for LG
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`Electronics, pursuant to notice, at the law
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`offices of Greenberg Trauig, 1750 Tysons
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`Boulevard, Suite 1000, McLean, Virginia, before
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`Denise M. Brunet, RPR, a Notary Public in and for
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`the Commonwealth of Virginia, beginning at
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`9:58 a.m., when were present on behalf of the
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 1
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 14
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`of executing multiple applications simultaneously,
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`typically. In a monolithic software architecture,
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`there is only one program running ever.
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` Q I believe you said in Blanchard there are
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`functions for contacts, dialing a phone and text
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`messages; is that accurate?
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` A I believe that's what I said.
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` Q And do you believe it's accurate that a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would
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`understand that the phone in Blanchard had
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`functions for dialing the phone, sending text
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`messages and displaying contacts?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Well, Blanchard itself
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`never goes into details of exactly what is
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`implemented where. You can just kind of look at
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`the figures and determine some of the things that
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`he had in mind that would be implemented with this
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`invention.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Well, if you look at figure 3, for
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`example -- actually, let's back up. Let's start
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 2
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 15
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`with figure 2. Figure 2 shows a phone, correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And using the phone shown in figure 2, a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would
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`understand that you could call a phone number.
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you could receive a phone call,
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`correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q So those would be functions available
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`within the phone in Blanchard?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: That is correct.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q To address your counsel's objection, is
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`it correct that dialing a phone number is a
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`function available within the phone in Blanchard?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And if you look at figure 3, there's a
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`series of screens, and one of them is marked 320.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 3
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 24
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`that particular feature.
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` Q Didn't you describe that as a
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`subroutine --
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` A As I said before --
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` Q -- in your declaration?
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` A -- I'm not willing to say that every
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`single menu item has an associated subroutine.
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` Q But you're willing to say that some of
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`them do?
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` A Certainly some of them do.
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` Q And you are willing to say that every
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`menu item has some code that is called when the
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`item is selected?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. Can you explain the distinction,
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`then, between having some code that is called and
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`having a subroutine?
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` A Well, a subroutine is a very specific
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`type of code that would be called. Blanchard
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`doesn't really speak about that. And Blanchard is
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`intentionally silent about the software
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`architecture altogether.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 4
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 55
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`example of what is done with the '020 patent.
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` Q Prior to the filing of the '020 patent,
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`were both of those options known to a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art for use in a mobile
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`telephone?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Can you explain -- well, is it correct
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`that, in your opinion, one of those options might
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`satisfy the claims of the '020 and '476 patents,
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`but the other one would not?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, is there a part of
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`my declaration that you're referring to?
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Probably many parts. Let's go to
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`paragraph 53 on page 28. You say there, "As I
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`have explained above, Blanchard fails to disclose
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`any application...."
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 5
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 62
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` A Yes.
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` Q Now, in the monolithic program that you
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`believe is described in Blanchard, the portions of
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`the program that correspond to the specific
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`functions aren't running before they're selected,
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`right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: As I said earlier,
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`Blanchard gives very little clue what happens with
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`any selection or what's going on ahead of time. I
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`don't have an opinion about that. I see Blanchard
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`is a number of screens with options that are
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`linked in a basic hierarchy, and that's really all
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`we know about Blanchard.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q I think you've already testified that the
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`code -- at least in the circumstance where you're
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`using a CPU and software -- that the code
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`associated with the "view all" function in the
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`phone book would be called when the user selected
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`that option, right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 6
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 63
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I've continued to
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`argue with your use of the word "call." It is
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`possible that there is no call, that perhaps the
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`code just proceeds from that point on.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Okay. But in your opinion, a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art would understand that
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`one of the possibilities in Blanchard, even if
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`it's being implemented in a monolithic program the
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`way you've described, is that when you select a
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`function, such as "view all" in phone book, what
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`happens is that you call the instructions
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`associated with that function, right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: That is a possibility if
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`the developer implemented it that way.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And that's the possibility that you
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`described in paragraph 46 at the bottom of page 24
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`of your declaration, right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes. That is one of the
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 7
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 64
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`possibilities.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q But, in your opinion, when you are
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`calling instructions to perform one of the
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`features in Blanchard, that is different from
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`launching an application because the overall
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`operating program is already running and can't be
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`launched; is that right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Turn to page 9 of your declaration. And
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`seven lines down you state, "As a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art would understand, a
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`software module is not an application."
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q You then state, "A module comprises a
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`subroutine or function that can be performed
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`within the monolithic operating program, but is
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`not separately executable as an application
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`running on top of an operating system would be."
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 8
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 65
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Is it correct that the distinction that
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`you're drawing there is the same one that we've
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`just discussed?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Let me ask it slightly differently. Is
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`it correct that the distinction you're drawing
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`there is that, in a monolithic operating program,
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`the subroutine or function cannot be launched
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`because the operating program is already running,
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`whereas in the architecture of an application on
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`top of an operating system, the application is
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`separately executable from the operating system?
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` A Yes.
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` Q But you agree that both of these
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`architectures were known for use in a mobile phone
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`prior to the '020 and '476 patent, right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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` Can we take a break?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 9
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 66
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` MR. BROWN: I was just going to suggest
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`that. Let's go off the record.
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` (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Mr. Denning, while we were off the
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`record, did you discuss the subject matter of this
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`case with your counsel?
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` A No.
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` Q If you could turn to page 12 of your
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`declaration, paragraph 18, you explain that a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would
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`understand from the '020 patent "that the
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`graphical user interface described and claimed was
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`implemented in a device running an operating
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`system and at least one application on top of the
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`operating system," correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you identify portions of the
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`specification in 19, 20, 21 and 22. Do you see
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`that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And then in paragraph 23, you state that
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 10
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 67
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`these identified portions of the specification
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`indicate quite clearly to a person of ordinary
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`skill in the art "that the '020 patent's use of
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`the term 'application' refers to an executable
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`program that may be open or unopened," correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And later in that paragraph, you refer to
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`the concept of multiple threads of execution. Do
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`you see that?
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` A I do.
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` Q And you explain specifically that the
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`reason, in your opinion, that the device of the
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`'020 patent must be able to perform multiple
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`threads of execution is the example you noted in
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`paragraph 22, correct?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And specifically the logic is that the
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`specification refers to opening the App Snapshot
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`while there are other, quote, previously or
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`currently opened applications, correct?
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 11
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 93
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` Do you see that?
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` A I do.
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` Q And then it gives an example of a
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`telephone storage object that contains software
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`that allows the user to store and retrieve
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`telephone numbers. Do you see that?
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` A I do.
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` Q Are those examples of -- and specifically
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`the e-mail service object and the telephone
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`service -- storage object, are those examples of
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`something that could be considered top-level
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`functions within the phone described in Oommen?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form and scope.
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` THE WITNESS: It appears that, by your
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`question of top-level function, you're asking me
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`whether there would be some menu that has e-mail
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`as well as telephone storage as menu items.
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`Certainly that is very similar to the '020 patent
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`figure 1 where we have messages, contacts,
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`calendar and phone. I would say those are
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`top-level functions.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 12
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 94
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` Q And those are common top-level functions
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`in mobile phones at the relevant time, July 2000,
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`right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: They appear to be common
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`between the '020, the Oommen reference and
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`Blanchard.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And in the monolithic system described in
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`Blanchard, the code for the telephone functions is
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`not running when the user is using the e-mail
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`functions, correct?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: That is correct.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And vice versa, the code for the e-mail
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`functions is not running when the user is using
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`the telephone functions, correct?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And neither the code for the e-mail
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 13
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`
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`Page 99
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`possible to implement the interface that's shown
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`in Blanchard using separate applications for each
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`of these top-level icons? In other words, there
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`would be a phone book application, a mailbox
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`application, et cetera.
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I have no idea. You would
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`have to provide a lot more information on how to
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`implement this, what needed to be accomplished,
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`design goals, et cetera, to be able to even
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`consider whether it could be done or not.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Well, backing up a step, a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art in July of 2000 would
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`have known that you could implement a phone using
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`a monolithic operating program architecture or
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`using an operating system and application
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`architecture, correct?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q And the '020 patent did not provide any
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`888-391-3376
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 14
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`
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`details about how to implement using the operating
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`system and application architecture, right?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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`Page 100
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q So it uses the word "application"
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`repeatedly and it occasionally refers to an
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`operating system, but it doesn't describe any ways
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`of actually implementing that, right?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q So the '020 patent assumes that the
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`knowledge of how to implement something using an
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`operating system and application architecture is
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`already possessed by a person of ordinary skill in
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`the art, correct? And I should clarify. By
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`"something," I mean a mobile phone. So let me
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`just ask the question again without the word
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`"something."
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` Isn't it true that the '020 patent
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`assumes that the knowledge of how to implement a
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`mobile phone using an operating system and
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`application architecture was already possessed by
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 15
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`a person of ordinary skill in the art as of July
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`Page 101
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`of 2000?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Can you think of any reason why the user
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`interface that's shown in Blanchard could not be
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`implemented by a person of ordinary skill in the
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`art using the operating system and application
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`architecture that they knew how to use?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: As I said before, Blanchard
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`doesn't really tell you how to do it. Blanchard
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`shows you what should happen when I touch a left
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`or a right or an up or a down button, that the
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`screen advances from one point to another. It
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`doesn't talk about anything as far as a software
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`level or how that could be accomplished.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Right. In fact, I think Blanchard
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`says -- at column 5, it says systems utilize --
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`I'm at line 14 -- "systems utilize a variety of
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 16
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 112
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`problem of having the top-level icons selectable
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`for launching all of the applications that would
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`be riding on top of the operating system. Somehow
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`the system has to know how to get from one to the
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`next. And, as I said, I don't have enough
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`information to tell me how to do that.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Doesn't Blanchard tell you you just click
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`the arrow keys to move left and right?
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` A Blanchard tells me that when you click
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`the arrow keys left and right, a different screen
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`appears. Blanchard is silent from there on as to
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`what happens.
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` Q In fact, it's intentionally silent. It
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`says it can be implemented using any of the known
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`phone configurations, right?
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` A I agree, it says that.
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` Q So is there any obstacle that you can
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`think of in implementing the interface shown in
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`Blanchard on a mobile telephone using what you've
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`called an operating system application
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`architecture?
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 17
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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` A An e-mail service module.
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` Q Turn the page, please, to column 3 of
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`Page 181
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`Oommen.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Take a look at line 16. Do you see
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`there's a control program described there?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What is your understanding about how
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`control program 200 is different from operating
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`program 100 that was quoted at Oommen column 1,
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`lines 20 to 28?
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` MR. BROWN: Objection. Leading.
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` MR. HELGE: Well, in that case, I will
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`rephrase my question.
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`BY MR. HELGE:
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` Q Mr. Denning, turn back to column 3,
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`line 16.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Is there any advantage that you're aware
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`of for non-monolithic programs relative to
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`monolithic programs?
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` MR. BROWN: Objection. Leading.
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 18
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 182
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` THE WITNESS: Applications can be easily
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`swapped out on application operating
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`system-layered programs -- I'm sorry, systems.
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` THE REPORTER: I'm sorry?
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` THE WITNESS: One advantage is that
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`applications can be easily swapped out or replaced
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`with an application operating system architecture
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`where, with monolithic programs, it's not possible
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`to swap out a particular function without doing
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`all of them.
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`BY MR. HELGE:
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` Q And are you aware of how Oommen describes
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`its e-mail software within control program 200?
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` A In line 29, it describes it as an e-mail
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`service object which can be replaced -- to replace
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`e-mail service object 204B.
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` Q In providing your opinion about the type
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`of software included in Blanchard, do you have a
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`recollection whether you were describing
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`monolithic or non-monolithic -- excuse me. I'm
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`going to restate my question.
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` In providing an opinion -- and actually
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 19
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 185
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`characteristics of a control program in line 21?
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` A Yes.
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` Q How does Oommen describe the
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`characteristics -- or a characteristic of a
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`control program?
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` A "One of the advantages of a
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`non-monolithic control program is that it
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`facilitates over-the-air updating of services
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`offered to users."
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` Q Does that disclosure lend any weight to
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`your understanding of what type of software
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`control program 200 is?
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` MR. BROWN: Objection. Leading.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. HELGE:
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` Q And what would that type be?
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` A Most likely, it would be application on
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`top of operating system level.
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` Q Is control program 200 monolithic?
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` A Specifically, it says, "One of the
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`advantages of a non-monolithic control program."
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` MR. HELGE: Pass the witness.
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 20
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 186
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` FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR LG ELECTRONICS
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Mr. Denning, is it correct that your
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`testimony just now is that the control
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`program 200, as described in Oommen, is most
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`likely an operating system?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: It has a number of things
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`in common with an operating system. I will say
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`that. I cannot say for certain that it is an
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`operating system.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q So I heard you say just now that
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`something was most likely applications on top of
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`an operating system. What was it?
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` A Most likely.
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` Q Okay. What were you referring to in that
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`answer?
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` A Control program 200.
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` Q I see. And if it is, in fact,
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`applications on top of an operating system, is it
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`correct that the applications would be the objects
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 21
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 187
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`and the operating system would be the control
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`program 200?
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` A You know, as I said before, I really have
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`not formed an opinion about what is -- what an
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`object is. That's just not something that I've
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`considered.
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` Q Okay. Well, when you said it was most
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`likely applications on top of an operating system,
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`how were you mapping that phrase to what's
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`described in Oommen? What was the applications
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`and what was the operating system?
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` A In particular, we were referring to -- I
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`say "we" -- the question my counsel asked me, and
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`my answer is the ability to update particular
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`modules, for lack of a better word, or objects in
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`this case.
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` That is something that is common, as I
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`expressed earlier, with an operating system
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`application type architecture, that the
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`applications can be easily swapped out. These
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`objects also can be easily swapped out. That's
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`about the only conclusion that I can draw from
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 22
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985
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`Page 188
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`this.
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` Q Do you agree that Oommen is explaining
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`that it is preferable to use an architecture where
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`the modules for things like e-mail can be easily
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`swapped out?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: That certainly seems to be
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`something emphasized in Oommen's specification.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Can you think of any reasons why a person
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`of ordinary skill in the art in July of 2000 would
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`not want -- would not have wanted to use that
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`architecture?
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` MR. HELGE: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I can think of constraints
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`that would prevent it.
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`BY MR. BROWN:
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` Q Such as?
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` A If we refer back to Blanchard, in
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`particular column 2, the last few lines, in
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`Blanchard, "CPU is a microprocessor -- I'm sorry.
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`"CPU 113 is a microprocessor, program memory 112
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`LG Exhibit 1016, Page 23
`LG Electronics, Inc. v. Core Wireless Licensing S.A.R.L., Trial No. IPR2015-01985