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`V. Thomas Rhyne , PhD
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`April 28, 2016
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`----------------------------:
`
`LG ELECTRONICS, INC., :
`
` :
`
` Petitioner, :
`
` :
`
`VS. : Case IPR2015-01984
`
` :
`
`CORE WIRELESS LICENSING : Patent 8,434,020
`
`S.A.R.L., :
`
` :
`
` Patent Owner. :
`
`----------------------------:
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
` V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD
`
` APRIL 28, 2016
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD,
`
`produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
`
`Owner and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
`
`numbered cause on the 28th day of April, 2016, from
`
`9:04 a.m. to 1:05 p.m., before Marsha Yarberry,
`
`Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of
`
`Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of
`
`Greenberg Traurig, LLP, 300 West 6th Street,
`
`Suite 2050, Austin, Texas, pursuant to 37 C.F.R.
`
`Section 42.53 and the provisions stated on the record
`
`or attached hereto.
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`Capital Reporting - A Veritext Company
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`April 28, 2016
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`----------------------------:
`
`LG ELECTRONICS, INC., :
`
` :
`
` Petitioner, :
`
` :
`
`VS. : Case IPR2015-01984
`
` :
`
`CORE WIRELESS LICENSING : Patent 8,434,020
`
`S.A.R.L., :
`
` :
`
` Patent Owner. :
`
`----------------------------:
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
` V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD
`
` APRIL 28, 2016
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD,
`
`produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
`
`Owner and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
`
`numbered cause on the 28th day of April, 2016, from
`
`9:04 a.m. to 1:05 p.m., before Marsha Yarberry,
`
`Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of
`
`Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of
`
`Greenberg Traurig, LLP, 300 West 6th Street,
`
`Suite 2050, Austin, Texas, pursuant to 37 C.F.R.
`
`Section 42.53 and the provisions stated on the record
`
`or attached hereto.
`
`Capital Reporting - A Veritext Company
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`Ex. 2002
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`V. Thomas Rhyne , PhD
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`April 28, 2016
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`Page 2
`
` APPEARANCES
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` MR. KEVIN KUDLAC
` GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
` 300 West 6th Street, Suite 2050
` Austin, Texas 78701
` 512-320-7277
` kudlack@gtlaw.com
` --and--
` MR. HERBERT H. FINN (Via Telephone)
` MR. ERIC MAIERS (Via Telephone)
` GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
` 77 West Wacker Drive, Suite 3100
` Chicago, Illinois 60601
` 312-456-8400
` finnh@gtlaw.com
` maierse@gtlaw.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` MR. WAYNE HELGE
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY, LLP
` 8300 Greensboro Drive, Suite 500
` McLean, Virginia 22102
` 571-765-7708
` whelge@dbjg.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Mr. Kenneth Liu
` Mr. Nicholas Brown
`
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`V. Thomas Rhyne , PhD
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`April 28, 2016
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`Page 3
`
` INDEX
`
` PAGE
`
`Appearances..................................... 2
`
`V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD
`
` Examination by Mr. Helge.................... 4
`
` Examination by Mr. Kudlac................... 114
`
` Further Examination by Mr. Helge............ 124
`
`Changes and Corrections......................... 127
`
`Signature....................................... 128
`
`Reporter's Certificate.......................... 129
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE/LINE REFERENCED
`
`Exhibit 1001, Patent '020....................... 8/10
`
`Exhibit 1001, Patent '476....................... 8/12
`
`Exhibit 1002.................................... 37/2
`
`Exhibit 1004, Declaration, '476................. 101/2
`
`Exhibit 1004, Declaration, '020................. 104/3
`
`(Exhibits attached to transcript)
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`V. Thomas Rhyne , PhD
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`April 28, 2016
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`Page 4
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` V. THOMAS RHYNE, PhD,
`
`having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`QUESTIONS BY MR. HELGE:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Rhyne.
`
` A. Good morning, Mr. Helge.
`
` Q. You have been deposed a number of times
`
`before, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you were deposed yesterday in another IPR
`
`matter, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Were you provided with a list of standard
`
`deposition rules yesterday?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you need me to go over standard
`
`deposition rules for -- for example, that we need to
`
`have an oral response to the questions, head nodding is
`
`not enough because of the record here?
`
` A. I think you don't need to provide me with the
`
`rules.
`
` Q. Okay. You understand those rules pretty well?
`
` A. Well, if I fail to follow them, just point it
`
`out to me, or the court reporter may.
`
` Q. Understood. Understood. Is there any reason
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`why you cannot give true and accurate testimony today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Dr. Rhyne, could you please just for the
`
`record confirm your full name.
`
` A. It's Vernon Thomas Rhyne III.
`
` Q. Dr. Rhyne, you're registered as a patent
`
`agent, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Dr. Rhyne, have you given many depositions in
`
`the context of an inter partes review?
`
` A. I believe yesterday was my first --
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- in terms of a deposition.
`
` Q. Understood. Understood. Are you aware that
`
`there is an office patent trial practice guide that
`
`spells out some guidelines that may be a little
`
`different from litigation depositions?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. I appreciate that. Let me go ahead and
`
`give you -- what I'm going to do is actually read into
`
`the record one of the -- one of the sets of guidelines
`
`that are specific to inter partes review. And after I
`
`read this we can talk about it and make sure that you
`
`understand what is required here. Well, first of all,
`
`you understand that this is a cross-examination,
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`correct?
`
` A. Well, in that sense, yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Because your direct testimony was the
`
`declarations you provided in these cases, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. So I'm going to read this to you from
`
`the Office Patent Trial Practice Guide. "Once the
`
`cross-examination of a witness has commenced, and until
`
`cross-examination of the witness has concluded, counsel
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`offering the witness on direct examination shall not,
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`A, consult or confer with the witness regarding the
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`substance of the witness's testimony already given, or
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`anticipated to be given, except for the purpose of
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`conferring on whether to assert a privilege against
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`testifying or on how to comply with a board order; or,
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`B, suggest to the witness the manner in which any
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`questions should be answered."
`
` Dr. Rhyne, does that make sense what I
`
`just read to you?
`
` A. Yes. Sounds very much like what they call the
`
`rule in Eastern District.
`
` Q. Okay. So you understand that you're not
`
`permitted to confer with your attorneys during breaks
`
`during cross-examination today about testimony you've
`
`already given or testimony that you anticipate to be
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`given, correct?
`
` A. Yes, I understand that.
`
` Q. Okay. And that goes, you know, even during
`
`lunch break, for example.
`
` A. Sure.
`
` Q. Okay. Great. And, Dr. Rhyne, do you
`
`understand that at certain times during the day I may
`
`ask you if you've been following these guidelines?
`
` A. That's entirely up to you whether you choose
`
`to ask that or not.
`
` Q. Okay. I just want to make sure you're ready
`
`to answer if I ask.
`
` Dr. Rhyne, you submitted declarations in
`
`IPR2015-01984, correct?
`
` A. I don't remember the numbers.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. But I know that I have submitted, in relation
`
`to the Core Wireless patents, declarations.
`
` Q. Okay. Understood.
`
` A. I don't know the numbers of the IPRs.
`
` Q. Understood. And the time period of -- I think
`
`the critical time period related to the patents being
`
`challenged was around middle of 2000. Correct?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: That's a little later than
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`I thought it was, but, you know, it's a fact. So if
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`you want to give me a copy of the patent, I can take a
`
`look at the first page and tell you what the relevant
`
`time frame as I understand it is.
`
` MR. HELGE: Sure. Sure.
`
` Counsel, just for purposes of the
`
`exhibits today, everything, I believe, that we're going
`
`to be using is already in record. I think the tricky
`
`thing is that Exhibit 1001 in the two cases is
`
`different. All right. 1001 in one case is --
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Makes sense.
`
` MR. HELGE: -- the '020 patent. 1001 in
`
`the other case is '476. So for the purposes of the
`
`day, I will be referring to these exhibits by the
`
`patent number rather than the exhibit number.
`
` MR. KUDLAC: That makes perfect sense.
`
` MR. HELGE: Thank you.
`
` MR. KUDLAC: I'll try and do the same if
`
`I have anything to say.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Dr. Rhyne, I'm going to hand
`
`you what has been marked LG Exhibit 1001 in -- let me
`
`make sure I got it right here.
`
` MR. KUDLAC: You've already lost track.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) The 1985 case. This is what
`
`we're going to refer to today as the '476 patent.
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`April 28, 2016
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`Page 9
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`Dr. Rhyne, have you seen this document before?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. This is one of the patents that you provided a
`
`declaration on, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And do you see on the left side of this patent
`
`there is a foreign application priority date?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you see that?
`
` A. Uh-huh.
`
` Q. And do you see that date is July 28th, 2000?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And is that the time period from which
`
`you provided your opinions?
`
` A. That's what I understood to be the priority
`
`date, and the relevant time frame was the late 1990s up
`
`to mid-2000.
`
` Q. Okay. So, Dr. Rhyne, as of that time period,
`
`July 28th, 2000, what was your understanding of the
`
`term "smart phone"?
`
` A. I think it was the advance in cellular
`
`telephony to the point where -- actually more like a
`
`few years later than this the phones began to have
`
`applications that ran on them much like they were a
`
`small computer that had browsers and other types of
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`applications over and above the basic ability to do the
`
`cellular communications.
`
` Q. Okay. If I understood your answer correctly,
`
`you were talking about a few years after 2000.
`
` A. Is that a question?
`
` Q. Is that correct, that you were talking a few
`
`years after 2000?
`
` A. I -- I haven't looked at it for a while, but I
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`think the term "smart phone" came in a little after
`
`2000, as best I recall, at least the first time I ran
`
`across it. But I may just be -- I'm not trying to give
`
`you a factual answer. I'm just trying to tell you what
`
`my recollection is as to when people began to refer to
`
`their phones as having the capability of a smart phone.
`
` Q. Okay. What makes a phone a smart phone
`
`versus -- can we say dumb phone in comparison?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: As I said, it's having a
`
`sufficiently powerful processor and sufficiently
`
`powerful software resident within it that it can do
`
`Internet browsing and run applications that have been
`
`installed in it over and above the native applications
`
`that were installed when it was first manufactured.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) You just mentioned the term
`
`"software resident." Can you tell me what you mean by
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`that?
`
` A. The phones come with software that's installed
`
`in them by the manufacturer, but in my experience smart
`
`phones have the additional capability of being able to
`
`download additional software which is retained in a
`
`nonvolatile manner in the phone and which the phone can
`
`then be used to execute thereafter.
`
` Q. That nonvolatile manner that you just
`
`mentioned, is that nonvolatile memory?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And that's -- is that generally
`
`considered RAM, R-A-M, RAM?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. What is that normally referred to as?
`
` A. Commonly and appropriately in a purely
`
`technical sense, ROM, read-only memory, is one of --
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`one type of nonvolatile memory.
`
` Q. What does ROM stand for?
`
` A. It often is interpreted to stand for read-only
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`memory, but obviously you can't have a memory that can
`
`only be read. It has to be able to be written into at
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`least once.
`
` Q. So you mentioned the term "native," native
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`application; is that right?
`
` A. Yes.
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` Q. And native application, is that referred to
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`something that's been installed by the manufacturer?
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` A. Yes, or the seller sometimes. There's a
`
`second or third party that's involved in configuring
`
`the phone. Like, say, one of the cellular carriers
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`sometimes install additional software over and above
`
`the manufacturer of the phone itself.
`
` Q. Can you give me an example of who those
`
`carriers may be?
`
` A. Sprint.
`
` Q. Verizon?
`
` A. Verizon's another one. AT&T.
`
` Q. Is there a difference between a smart phone
`
`and a dumb phone in terms of operating systems?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form, lack of
`
`foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: In my experience there is.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) And what is that difference?
`
` A. I think what -- to use your term, "dumb
`
`phones" generally didn't really have an operating
`
`system. They had software that was installed within
`
`them, but -- there may have been some rudimentary
`
`operating system, but there's nothing like what you see
`
`in a modern iPhone or an Android phone today in the way
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`of an operating system.
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` Q. Were there any types of operating systems
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`being used in any types of phones back in the 2000 time
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`period?
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` A. I'm sure there must have been some early
`
`attempts somewhere along the line. I don't remember
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`the names of them, but there were some early software
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`systems that were attempts to develop an operating
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`system to operate on a cellular phone given its, at
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`that time frame, limited processor and memory capacity,
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`but people were certainly thinking along those lines.
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`I just don't remember the names of the early attempts
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`to make a cellular phone operating system.
`
` Q. Did you investigate that as part of your
`
`preparation of your declarations?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Is it correct to say that an operating system
`
`performs operations by accessing, compiling, and
`
`executing instructions?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) What is incorrect with what I
`
`just said?
`
` A. I don't think of the operating system as doing
`
`compilation.
`
` Q. Okay. Is it correct to say that an operating
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`system performs operations by accessing and executing
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`instructions?
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` A. Well, the operating system doesn't execute
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`them, but it does it -- I agree with the accessing, and
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`then it causes them to be executed by the processor.
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` Q. An operating system accesses instructions; is
`
`that right?
`
` A. Well, it -- one of the things that a modern
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`operating system does is to allow you to initiate the
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`execution of a -- let's call it an application or a
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`program, and in that sense it accesses it by bringing
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`it into the -- typically into the volatile memory
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`resource of the system from -- we mentioned -- I
`
`mentioned the nonvolatile resource. That's what
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`normally an operating system does, brings it in so it
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`can be executed at a higher speed.
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` Q. Brings it into the volatile memory?
`
` A. That's typically the case.
`
` Q. And that's -- your answer you just gave me was
`
`about modern operating systems, correct?
`
` A. Well, when I think of an operating system,
`
`it's just an operating system. I think everything
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`that's validly referred to as an operating system had
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`that capacity or capability.
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` Q. In the mid -- or excuse me. In the mid-2000
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`time period, as I understood it you did not look into
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`whether mobile phones were using operating systems.
`
`Correct?
`
` A. I think there were early attempts to develop
`
`mobile phone operating systems. I just don't remember
`
`the names of them or who was doing it. But I don't
`
`think it was -- certainly what would be in what you
`
`called a dumb phone. That would be a difference, I
`
`think, is that the dumb phone just had a body of code
`
`that it executed. It didn't have the ability of an
`
`operating system to go fetch things in or out or things
`
`like that.
`
` Q. So a dumb phone had a body of code is what you
`
`just said?
`
` A. No. All phones that had programmable
`
`processors had code to be executed by that processor.
`
` Q. Is it correct to refer to that code also as
`
`instructions?
`
` A. Yes. Machine instructions.
`
` Q. And where are those -- let's -- let's continue
`
`talking about the mid-2000 time period. Where would
`
`those instructions have been stored in a mobile phone?
`
` A. I may not understand your language when you
`
`say mid-2000. You mean the middle of the year 2000?
`
` Q. That's a great question. I think for the
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`purpose of the entire day today, if I say mid-2000,
`
`what I'm really thinking about is up to the priority
`
`date of July 28th, 2000.
`
` A. Okay. That's what confused me much earlier in
`
`the deposition. Well, not much earlier, but earlier
`
`when you said something about it -- relevant time frame
`
`being in the mid-2000.
`
` Q. I see.
`
` A. You probably didn't say mid-2000s, but I heard
`
`it that way. So okay. Now I understand. If you just
`
`want to say July of 2000, I understand that. So reask
`
`your question.
`
` Q. In -- let's put it this way. As of July of
`
`2000, where would a phone store the instructions that
`
`it needed to operate?
`
` A. In, as I said, some type of nonvolatile memory
`
`so that if the battery ran down you didn't lose the
`
`instructions. You had mentioned, I think, ROM as being
`
`one type. Flash, okay, is another type that can be
`
`reprogrammed. Something like that.
`
` Q. Were phone manufacturers installing flash into
`
`mobile phones in July of 2000?
`
` A. I think so.
`
` Q. Was flash really expensive in July of 2000?
`
` A. Depends on how much you needed, but it wasn't
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`particularly expensive. Memory prices were falling
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`through that time frame, and it was certainly feasible
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`to have a complement of flash memory in a cellular
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`phone at that time.
`
` Q. Is RAM generally volatile memory or not
`
`volatile memory?
`
` A. In my experience -- and again, that's another
`
`acronym that if you unwind the acronym is really
`
`inapplicable to where most people use it. But I think
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`the way most people use the terms "ROM" and "RAM" is
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`RAM is volatile. If you lose the power, you lose the
`
`data stored in it.
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` Q. And that's why the OS accesses instructions
`
`from nonvolatile and puts it into volatile for
`
`execution, correct?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: That's not really why. It
`
`has to do with speed of execution.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Is it because the speed of
`
`execution in nonvolatile is faster than volatile?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And why is that?
`
` A. No, you said it backwards. Okay. It's faster
`
`in RAM. They -- they have faster access times than
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`ROM.
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` Q. And why is that?
`
` A. The technology of the semiconductors that are
`
`used to manufacture them.
`
` Q. And was that the case in July of 2000 as well?
`
` A. It's been that way for a long, long time
`
`before that.
`
` Q. Dr. Rhyne, are you familiar with the term
`
`"kernel," k-e-r-n-e-l?
`
` A. In a couple of contexts, but yes.
`
` Q. Okay. In what different contexts are you
`
`familiar with that term?
`
` A. Well, the one I think that's relevant here is
`
`that it's commonly referred to a set of code that is
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`sort of the heartbeat or brain of the operating
`
`environment. It's something that you bring in which
`
`basically lets the system that it's relevant to start
`
`its operations.
`
` Q. Is the kernel part of an operating system?
`
` A. Generally that's a fair way to think about it.
`
`It's the -- sort of like the lifeline that you bring in
`
`to get things started.
`
` Q. If a mobile phone in July of 2000 did not have
`
`an operating system, would it still have a kernel?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I wouldn't use it that way
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`myself, but I don't know whether somebody might have
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`referred to some piece of code that was running in that
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`hypothetical phone as having a kernel.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Why would you --
`
` A. I wouldn't think of it as having such a thing.
`
` Q. And why would you not think of it that way?
`
` A. I just don't use the term "kernel" outside the
`
`context of an operating system environment personally.
`
` Q. Is the kernel in a phone with an operating
`
`system, is it allowing interaction between other parts
`
`of the phone?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Object to form, lack of
`
`foundation, incomplete hypothetical.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't think I have
`
`enough -- that's too vague a question.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) Okay. Does a kernel allow
`
`applications to be run on a phone with an operating
`
`system?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Same objections.
`
` THE WITNESS: I tend to think of the
`
`kernel as a subset of the overall operating system that
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`you bring in. And in my experience, the way I used to
`
`teach it, it would have had the capability to bring in
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`as part of the operation an application and started
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`into operation.
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` Q. (By Mr. Helge) And would that be a native
`
`application?
`
` A. It wouldn't make a whole lot of difference
`
`whether it was native or a later installed one. It
`
`would just be an app as we say today.
`
` Q. Are there different types of kernels that have
`
`been developed over time?
`
` A. I'm sure there are.
`
` Q. Have you heard of a monolithic kernel?
`
` A. I have not heard that term.
`
` Q. Have you heard of a microkernel?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What does a microkernel mean?
`
` A. I think it's something that people were trying
`
`to develop some very minimal amount of code. I used
`
`the term "lifeline" earlier, something that basically
`
`is the limited amount of stuff that you could bring in
`
`to get some computer system into operation.
`
` Q. Are you familiar at all, Dr. Rhyne, with any
`
`type of association between types of kernels and memory
`
`space?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't think I understand
`
`that question well enough to say no, but I think
`
`depending upon how much memory you have allocated in a
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`computer system, the complexity of the code that you
`
`would expect that system to run would vary, if that
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`answers your question. I don't know.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) So if the code is more
`
`complex, it would occupy more memory; is that right?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: That would certainly be
`
`desirable.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Helge) And why is that?
`
` A. Just so you don't have to keep -- again, are
`
`you asking all these questions in the context of a
`
`cellular phone or just a generic computer environment?
`
`Let me -- let me get that straight in my head.
`
` Q. Well, I think at this point I'm just asking
`
`about a very general environment.
`
` A. Well, in a general computer environment you
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`typically have -- we talked about volatile and
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`nonvolatile memory and that the volatile memory is fast
`
`and usually more limited than what you have available
`
`in the nonvolatile memory resource. And there's a
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`process commonly referred to in larger computer systems
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`as pagination that involves bringing in portions of
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`code to be executed out of the read-only memory into
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`the volatile memory where it can be executed more
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`rapidly.
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` The more of that volatile memory you
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`have, the more instructions you can keep in that
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`memory, and as a result, you don't have to pay the
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`overhead of figuring out what to throw out of the
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`volatile memory and then go back over and get something
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`out of the nonvolatile memory to bring it in to
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`execute.
`
` Q. You mentioned before that the kernel is a set
`
`of code. Is it correct that the kernel code would be
`
`stored in the nonvolatile memory and brought into the
`
`volatile memory for -- maybe upon booting up the
`
`machine?
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` A. It may be even stored in a specialized
`
`nonvolatile memory where it lives that's not even the
`
`other nonvolatile memory. You know, you've got -- in a
`
`bigger computer system you talk about a BIOS, a basic
`
`input/output system, that's sort of the kernel in a
`
`sense. Those are often stored in a specialized ROM
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`device strictly only to hold that little bit of code as
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`like a kernel in the sense. I use that term
`
`"lifeline." It's what you start with, and you use it
`
`to go get the stuff that you really want to get in to
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`operate.
`
` Q. But in your investigation in July of 2000,
`
`you're not aware of any mobile phones that had either
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`operating systems or kernels, correct?
`
` A. I can't name any for you. Okay. I've done
`
`some research with that back when we were prepping for
`
`the trial, but I haven't redone that research. I was
`
`unable then or recently to confirm any example of a
`
`circa 2000 cell phone that had a -- what I would call a
`
`legitimate full-blown operating environment.
`
` Q. So you mentioned you performed some research
`
`for the litigation. Were you relying on any of that
`
`research in your declarations?
`
` A. I don't think so. I mean, it's just in my
`
`head. I've tried to understand how -- the capabilities
`
`of the processors that were available in cell phones,
`
`and I was working at Motorola during the periods in the
`
`mid to late 1990s, and so I know kind of what the
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`Motorola cell phones did and what kind of processors
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`they had. And I just -- I think I have a generic
`
`understanding of what was happening with the processing
`
`capabilities of a lot of different kinds of computer
`
`systems in that time frame.
`
` Q. So everything you relied upon in your
`
`declaration you've actually disclosed in your
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`declaration, correct?
`
` A. Yes, in terms of documentations.
`
` Q. And also in your head, correct?
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` A. Well, I don't know how to disclose that it's
`
`in my head. Okay. I don't think I actually said that
`
`I used my brain, but I did, okay, in writing that
`
`report. And if I failed to do that, let me tell you
`
`now with -- unequivocally, I used my brain in writing
`
`that declaration.
`
` Q. And your experience also, correct?
`
` A. Well, that's part of what's in my brain.
`
` Q. Understood. Is it fair to say that as of
`
`July 2000 a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`have also interpreted a mobile phone to be a device
`
`without an operating system and without a kernel?
`
` MR. KUDLAC: Objection; form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't think a
`
`person of ordinary skill would have been able to
`
`readily identify a phone that had those capabilities.
`
`They would -- I don't think they would have readily
`
`been aware of a phone -- the typical phone as having
`
`those capabilities. There certainly may be outliers
`
`that are exceptions to that where people were working
`
`on operating environments for a phone in that time
`
`frame.
`
` But, you know, my view of the way phones
`
`reached the marketplace around 2000 or the middle of
`
`the year 2000 is based on my experience at Motorola.
`
`Capital Reporting - A Veritext Company
`(866) 448-DEPO
`
`IPR2015-01984 & IPR2015-01985
`Ex. 2002
`Page 24 of 152
`
`
`
`V. Thomas Rhy
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