UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`1
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` APPLE, INC.
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` Petitioner
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` vs.
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` CORE WIRELESS LICENSING, S.A.R.L.
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` Patent Owner
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` Case IPR 2015-01898
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` Patent 8,434,020 B2
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` Deposition of DR. BRAD A. MYERS
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` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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` Thursday, November 3, 2016
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` 9 a.m.
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`Job No.: 125961
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`Pages: 1 - 131
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`Reported by: Keith G. Shreckengast, RPR
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`IPR2015-01898 & IPR2015-01899
`Ex. 2014
`Page 1 of 131
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`1
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` APPLE, INC.
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` Petitioner
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` vs.
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` CORE WIRELESS LICENSING, S.A.R.L.
`
` Patent Owner
`
` Case IPR 2015-01898
`
` Patent 8,434,020 B2
`
` Deposition of DR. BRAD A. MYERS
`
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
`
` Thursday, November 3, 2016
`
` 9 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 125961
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`Pages: 1 - 131
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`Reported by: Keith G. Shreckengast, RPR
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`IPR2015-01898 & IPR2015-01899
`Ex. 2014
`Page 1 of 131
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` Deposition of DR. BRAD A. MYERS, held at
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`the offices of:
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`2
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` PLANET DEPOS - PITTSBURGH
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` 301 Grant Street
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` One Oxford Centre - Suite 4300
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` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219
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` (888) 433-3767
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`Pursuant to Notice, before Keith G. Shreckengast,
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`Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public
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`in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
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`IPR2015-01898 & IPR2015-01899
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`Page 2 of 131
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`3
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` ON BEHALF OF APPLE INC.:
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` MEGAN F. RAYMOND, ESQUIRE
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` ROPES & GRAY
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` 2099 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
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` Washington, DC 20006-6807
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` (202) 508-4600
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` megan.raymond@ropesgray.com
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` ON BEHALF OF CORE WIRELESS LICENSING,
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` S.A.R.L.:
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` WALTER D. DAVIS, JR., ESQUIRE
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` WAYNE M. HELGE, ESQUIRE
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` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY, LLP
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` 8300 Greensboro Drive - Suite 500
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` McLean, Virginia 22102
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` (571) 765-7700
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` wdavis@dbjg.com
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` whelge@dbjg.com
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION OF DR. BRAD A. MYERS PAGE
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` By Mr. Davis 5
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`4
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` E X H I B I T S
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` (No deposition exhibits were marked.)
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`IPR2015-01898 & IPR2015-01899
`Ex. 2014
`Page 4 of 131
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` DR. BRAD A. MYERS,
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`Having been first duly sworn/affirmed, was examined
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`5
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`and testified under oath as follows:
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` EXAMINATION
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`BY MR. DAVIS:
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` Q Good morning, Dr. Myers.
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` A Good morning.
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` Q Welcome back, so to speak that is. My
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`name is Walter Davis, as I told you a second ago. I
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`met you during your earlier deposition in this
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`matter. At that point my partner, Mr. Helge, was
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`asking you the questions. Today I'll ask you
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`questions. Okay?
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` A Okay.
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` Q Do you understand, Dr. Myers, that you're
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`here to provide additional testimony in two IPRs?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And those, I'm sure you don't necessarily
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`know the IPR numbers off the top of your head, but I
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`think the last four digits for each are 1898 and
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`1899. Does that sound about right to you?
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` A Sure.
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` MS. RAYMOND: These are just, for the
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`record, these are just clean copies of his reports.
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` MR. DAVIS: That's great. I have other
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`clean copies. He'll be able to use those, or these,
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`or whatever.
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` Q Obviously you've been through this
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`before, you've been deposed before, right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And I now know that you've been deposed
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`in an IPR before?
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` A Yes.
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` Q You generally understand the deposition
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`rules, or the rules of deposition, but I'll remind
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`you of a couple of things. Today I'll be asking you
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`any number of questions, probably perhaps more than
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`you would like. But when I ask you a question, and
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`you respond, if you could just please provide an
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`audible response. In other words, don't simply nod
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`or shake your head or grunt, sort of whatever other
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`noise. Sound okay?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And as is natural in a deposition,
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`sometimes it becomes a bit of a back and forth, a
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`bit of a discussion. What I would like to avoid,
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`though, to help out the court reporter, is if we
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`could not talk over each other. Sound good?
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` A Okay.
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` Q And today we can and will take breaks.
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`My understanding from your counsel is that we will
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`need to -- well, she has a meeting, a conference
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`call I guess I should say, at 11. That's in about
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`an hour and 20 minutes. So we'll see how it's
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`going, but perhaps we'll just push straight through
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`to that time.
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` A Okay.
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` Q And if you decide at some point, whether
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`it's in an hour, or 45 minutes, if you need a break
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`at any time, just let me know, and we can break.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Okay? If we do break, however, the one
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`thing I would ask is if I have a question
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`outstanding for you, please provide me an answer
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`before the break. Does that sound fair?
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` A Okay.
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` Q Okay. Dr. Myers, is there any reason,
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`medical or otherwise, that you cannot provide
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`8
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`truthful testimony today?
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` A No.
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` Q Dr. Myers, what did you do to prepare for
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`your deposition today?
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` A I reread my reports, and the primary
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`materials that I referenced. And I reread my
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`deposition from the last -- my transcript from the
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`last deposition. And I reread the -- well, patents
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`at issue of course. And Mr. Denning's rebuttal
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`report, or whatever it was called. And I met with
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`counsel for about six hours yesterday.
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` Q Okay. When you say that you reread your
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`reports, are you referring to both your original
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`declarations and your rebuttal declarations?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. So four declarations total, right?
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` A Of mine, yes.
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` Q Yeah, right, of yours. And then the
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`single Denning declaration which covered both
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`matters, right?
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` A Correct.
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` Q And you met with counsel yesterday for
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`six hours?
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` A Approximately.
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` Q Okay. One other thing I should mention
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`in terms of my question asking, despite what I like
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`to think, my questions definitely are not always
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`clear. So if I ask you a question and you don't
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`understand it, please let me know, and I'll ask it
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`in a more clear way hopefully. All right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Is that fair? Okay. So let's just jump
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`right into it. Dr. Myers, we have now referenced
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`multiple declarations that you have prepared in this
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`matter. And two of those declarations are the
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`rebuttal declarations in the 1898 matter and 1899
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`matter. And what I'll do is I'm just going to put
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`them in front of you right now. Because we're going
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`to be referencing them throughout the day.
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` MR. DAVIS: And counsel, these have of
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`course already been given an exhibit number in the
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`matter, so I don't think we need to include it in
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`the deposition packet or separately mark it.
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` MS. RAYMOND: That's fine.
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` MR. DAVIS: So we don't need a sticker.
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` Q So I'm handing you your two rebuttal
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`declarations, one from matter 1898 and one from
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`matter 1899. Those are your rebuttal declarations,
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`right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And also because you have two
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`declarations in two different matters, there's a lot
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`of common subject matter. And at times that may
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`become confusing as to which matter we're
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`discussing. To the extent that a question I am
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`asking quite specifically refers to one of the
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`matters, I will try to make that clear. Okay?
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` So let's look at your rebuttal
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`declaration in the 1898 matter for a second.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Specifically paragraphs 6 through 9. Are
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`you there?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And in these paragraphs you provide a
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`number of, I believe you call them -- I think I saw
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`the term claim interpretation, so I'm going to use
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`that. You provide a number of claim term
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`interpretations in these paragraphs, is that
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`accurate?
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` A Paragraph 6 and 7 are my interpretation
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`of the meaning of application, and paragraphs 8 and
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`9 are my understanding of the meaning of function.
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` Q Okay, great. So let's look at
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`application specifically in paragraph 7 there. And
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`there's some text there, starting at the end of the
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`third line, paragraph 7, that reads, in my opinion,
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`such interpretation of the term application is a
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`program or group of programs working together
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`designed to provide access to functions and data.
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`Did I read that correctly?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And that, Dr. Myers, is your opinion as
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`to what the term application means?
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` A That's my understanding of how a person
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`of ordinary skill in the art, under the broadest
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`reasonable interpretation standard, would understand
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`the term as used in the -- particularly in the '020,
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`but also in the '476 Patent.
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` Q And that's a good reminder, in terms of
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`the patent numbers. So there's the '020 Patent and
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`the '476 Patent. The '020 corresponds to case 1898,
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`and '476 corresponds to 1899. So still focusing on
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`these paragraphs here, with your interpretations, if
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`we could go to paragraph 8, in paragraph 8, towards
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`the bottom of page 3 here right at the bottom, you
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`wrote a sentence that reads, such interpretation of
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`function includes an operation or command, and it's
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`not limited to an action that a user is to perform
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`within the corresponding application. Did I read
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`that correctly?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And that, Dr. Myers, is your opinion as
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`to what the term function means with respect to the
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`'020 and '476 Patents?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And Dr. Myers, you provided similar
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`opinions as to the meaning of those terms in 1899,
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`correct?
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`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` A I believe they're identical.
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` Q So looking at the 1899 declaration, I
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`believe you are correct, I believe they are
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`identical, and in fact even the paragraph numbers.
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`So paragraph 6 through 9 in the 1899 declaration,
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`those paragraphs provide the same opinions as to the
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`meanings of those terms?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And these opinions that you set
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`forth in your two rebuttal declarations, you have
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`not in this matter previously provided those
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`interpretations, have you, before -- let me try that
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`again. The first time you provided those
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`interpretations for the terms application and
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`function were in your rebuttal declarations in the
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`1898 and 1899 cases, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A Well, I think the -- your counsel asked
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`me about these terms in my deposition.
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` Q Sure.
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` A And I provided my understanding of them
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`as of that point. And I believe these
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`understandings are consistent with what I said in my
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`original report. It seemed necessary to rebut the
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`specific apparent constructions provided by Patent
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`Owner's materials. So I wanted to give a much more
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`specific interpretation that was carefully
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`considered in this particular rebuttal report.
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` Q I understand that. Thank you for
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`providing your rationale. However, they are -- this
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`is the first time that you provided these specific
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`interpretations, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` Q As written?
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` A This particular -- these two reports are
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`the first place I wrote down these specific
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`constructions. But they are consistent with what
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`I've been saying all along.
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` Q Okay, thank you. Let's talk about
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`function for a little bit. In paragraph 9 of both
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`of your rebuttal declarations, you opine -- well,
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`why don't you read that first sentence of paragraph
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`9? It's quite lengthy. It's better you say it than
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`me.
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` A In my opinion, it would have been well
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`understood that function includes displaying
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`relevant information in a window of an application,
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`because the specification discusses that when a
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`function in the app snapshot, i.e. claimed
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`application summary window, is selected, the device
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`may display the relevant screen offering the
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`relevant functionality.
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` Q Display the relevant screen offering the
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`relevant functionality, so there on the one hand is
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`a displaying of a screen, right?
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` A Correct. Yes.
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` Q And also that screen has to offer
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`relevant functionality, correct?
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` A This particular quote from the patent
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`identifies that the operation will display the
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`relevant screen, and that screen would offer the
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`relevant functionality.
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` Q Okay. So that sentence has two concepts
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`in there, display and functionality, at least two
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`concepts, at least those two concepts, correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q That would suggest, wouldn't it,
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`Dr. Myers, that there is some functionality beyond
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`merely displaying, right?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A No. I think the only action is the
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`displaying. And the offering the relevant
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`functionality part helps you understand which
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`particular screen must be displayed. So what I
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`think it's very clear that this means is that what
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`happens is that a particular screen, in particular
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`the relevant screen, is displayed. And how do you
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`know which screen is relevant? It's the one that
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`offers the relevant functionality.
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` Q Now what -- let's think of an example,
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`let's say you're displaying a list of names, okay?
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`So those names are represented on a screen by text,
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`right? They would be in my example.
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` A Okay.
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` Q So you understand that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q So text displayed on a screen, that text,
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`the text that's simply displaying names, that text
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`doesn't have functionality, don't you agree?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A Not necessarily. The -- there's two
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`different kinds of things that happen in the patent.
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`The function it describes requires that -- well, I
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`mean it's pretty clear. If the particular function
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`was to, say, understand people who match a certain
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`query, so say you typed in some search term, then a
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`display of a list of names would actually be the
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`answer to the search query. So actually just
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`displaying that list of names in your hypothetical
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`seems like it would be displaying the relevant
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`screen offering the relevant functionality, which is
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`understanding the results of a search.
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` Q And in your response that you just gave,
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`the function that you identified was understanding
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`people who match a certain query. I'm actually
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`reading it.
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` A Yeah.
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` Q Does that sound right?
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` A So the idea in your hypothetical, I was
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`coming up --
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` Q I'm sorry, I just wanted to ask a
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`question. Sorry. So that's what you said, so now
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`here's the question, I apologize. That's the user's
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`understanding, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: And if you could just
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`finish his previous thought, if there was something
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`you were trying to say.
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` Q I actually -- there wasn't a question
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`yet. That's why I apologize for cutting you off,
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`but I wanted to make sure we focus on the questions
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`I actually ask.
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` MS. RAYMOND: I think there was a
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`question. He was asking whether you asked whether
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`something sounds right, so I just wanted to make
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`sure that he can fully testify.
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` A I'm okay. Maybe you could repeat the
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`current question.
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` Q Sure. So the function in your response
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`was understanding -- the function was understanding
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`people who match a certain query. And the question
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`is that's -- that understanding is somebody that is
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`actually using the system, correct? That's whose
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
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`understanding it is?
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` A In the hypothetical we were just talking
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`about.
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` Q Right.
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` A The person or the entity I was thinking
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`of doing the understanding would be a user.
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` Q Right. The system is not performing that
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`understanding, right?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A The -- you know, the part that we're
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`looking at, the system is doing the displaying.
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` Q Right.
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` A And it displays the relevant screen
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`offering the relevant functionality. And the user
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`is the one who looks at the screen.
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` Q And performs the function of
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`understanding the people who match a certain query?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection, form.
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` A In your hypothetical.
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` Q Okay. So if you had -- take the paper in
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`front of you, and you see text on your report, or
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`your declaration. In your opinion, that text is
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
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`performing a function, the text itself, performing a
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`function?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A It's certainly possible that this could
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`be relevant functionality that -- or that displays a
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`screen, if this was on a screen, it could certainly
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`be the result of the displaying operation. And then
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`the functionality might be, you know, find page 4.
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` Q So my question now, you're referring to a
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`physical piece of paper in front of you, not a
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`screen, that text on that paper, in your opinion it
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`has a function? I'm just trying to understand.
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection.
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` Q So does the text on that paper in front
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`of you have a function?
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` A Of course.
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` Q And what function does it perform, what
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`action?
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` A Well, I'm not sure it's function in the
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`same sense as the patent is using the words. But
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`certainly in normal language you would say that the
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`function of this text is to communicate certain
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`meanings to whoever is reading it.
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` Q Would you say that that text on the paper
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`in front of you performs an operation or command?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A Well, I think we're getting a little far
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`from what the patent has in mind. But in the same
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`sense that we were just discussing, the requirement
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`is that the screen in the -- that you see as a
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`result of this operation, lets the user perform the
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`relevant functionality. User doesn't actually have
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`to have already done the functionality, it just has
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`to offer the relevant functionality. So the -- I
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`think it's pretty clear that, you know, we're
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`talking about a computer, where things on the screen
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`are enabled to do operations and commands, whereas
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`on pieces of paper, things on the screen aren't -- I
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`mean on the paper don't necessarily allow you to do
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`operations and commands. So I think applying this
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`understanding of function that's pretty clear to a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art in the context
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`of this patent to a piece of paper doesn't
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`necessarily make sense.
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` Q That aside, the text on the paper itself,
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`it doesn't actually perform an operation or command,
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`right?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A I think it's perfectly plausible that you
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`could imagine the text on the paper providing the
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`ability for the user to do an operation like
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`reading, or a command like crossing it out or
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`underlining. So if you said can you, you know,
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`bring up page 4 and underline the third line; and
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`then this screen, or this piece of paper was offered
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`to me, it would then offer the relevant
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`functionality, it would allow me to do the command
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`of underlining.
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` Q It would allow you, the user, right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And thinking about text displayed on a
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`computer screen, simple text, not a hyperlink, just
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`text, text displayed on the screen does not itself
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`perform an operation or a command, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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` A Well, I don't think that's what we're
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`requiring of the screen in this particular element
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`that we're talking about, or particular words. The
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`requirement is that what's displayed on the screen
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`must offer the relevant functionality. And it could
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`also be the result of performing the functionality.
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`The text on the screen doesn't have to be the
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`function. It just has to offer the relevant
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`functionality.
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` Q I'll ask the question again, because I
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`think you answered a different question. And my
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`question is, the text displayed on a computer
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`screen, that text does not itself perform an
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`operation or command, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A I don't necessarily agree with that. I
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`think the operation could be the same one that we
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`just talked about, that if you asked me to underline
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`something on the computer, and there was some text
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`there, then that text would offer me the ability to
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`do the underlining. So the screen offers, or the
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`text that you were talking about offers the relevant
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`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`functionality. Certainly the text could be the
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`result of going to a screen that answers an
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`operation or command. So there's a variety of ways
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`that that could match up.
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` Q Is opening an application to its default
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`screen the same thing as initiating a function of
`
`that application?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A I think the claim language requires that
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`the application be launched. And I'd like to have
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`the patent directly in front of me to quote the
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`correct language.
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` Q Sure, I can provide that to you. Here
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`are the two patents at issue, '020 and '476.
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` A Thank you.
`
` Q Do you need the question again?
`
` A No, I'm okay. So the actual patent
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`language is -- and this is claim one of the '020
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`Patent, launch the first application and initiate
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`the selected function. So I think it's clear that
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`there is two things going on there. And so
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`launching the first application by itself doesn't
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`necessarily initiate the selected function.
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` Q What do you mean by necessarily? You
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`said necessarily, it doesn't necessarily initiate
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`the selected function.
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` A So the patent has a number of examples.
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`And I think it's clear that if, for example, you
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`click on enter chat room, which is in Figure 2, that
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`the messages application of the patent would be
`
`launched, and the screen that you would see is the
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`chat room screen.
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` And, alternatively, if you clicked on, I
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`don't know, 0 new messages, or 3 unread emails, you
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`would launch the messages application and see a
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`different screen. And it doesn't say what would
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`happen if you just launched the messages application
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`without clicking on either of those. Certainly a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would understand
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`that clicking on the messages main menu item would
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`launch the messages application and show some
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`screen. And it's perfectly reasonable that it would
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`be one of those screens that you would get to from
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`clicking on, say, 0 new messages, or 3 unread
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`emails. It wouldn't make sense to be the default
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`screen that you would see. And that's a perfectly
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`reasonable way of understanding how this application
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`would work.
`
` Q So let's focus on part of what you
`
`mention there. You mentioned a enter chat room.
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`When a user clicks on enter chat room more than
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`simply -- well, let me ask a different way.
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`Clicking on enter chat room does more than simply
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`open a window, right?
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` A I believe that it would launch the
`
`messages application, and then enter the chat room
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`window.
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` Q And what does it mean to you when you say
`
`enter the chat room window?
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` A That the messages application would bring
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`the chat room window to the front.
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` Q And what's happening when you enter the
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`chat room window? Let me ask you this, do you agree
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`that when you enter a chat room, that a
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`communication session is started?
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` A Not necessarily. The chat room certainly
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`could be a preexisting chat room that was the last
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`one the user was participating in. So it might have
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`already been open. Or it might have already been an
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`active chat room that the user is entering. I mean
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`obviously the messages application starts running,
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`and the various code that's part of the messages
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`application would start running. But nothing in
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`particular necessarily happens as a result of
`
`bringing the chat room window to the front.
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` Q I'm not sure I understand your response.
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`It could be one that -- the chat room could be one
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`that the user was already using, or are you at some
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`point, when the user -- in order to enter that chat
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`room, a communication session had to start, right?
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` A No, I don't agree with that. I believe
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`that the -- when you enter the chat room, that
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`provides the -- what we were talking about before,
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`that that provides the opportunity for the user to
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`start typing, or to start chatting obviously. So
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`the -- it brings up the relevant screen, offering
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`the relevant functionality. So it brings up the
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`chat room screen, which offers the opportunity for
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`Deposition of Dr. Brad A. Myers
`Conducted on November 3, 2016
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`the user to start chatting, to start communicating.
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`By it doesn't necessarily cause any communication to
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`happen.
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` Q When a user is in a chat room, what would
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`28
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`the user see?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A Well, there's a lot of different
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`possibilities.
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` Q Would you see chatting?
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` A If something was happening in that chat
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`room, then that could start being displayed. If
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`nothing was happening, then obviously you wouldn't
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`see anything in particular.
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` Q So let's say something is happening, that
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`there are other users that are on that chat room,
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`okay, so when a user enters that chat room, the user
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`is going to see those conversations that are
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`occurring in the chat room even if the user does not
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`type him or herself, correct?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection to form.
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` A I think under that hypothetical when
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`something is happening in a chat room, when the user
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`enters the chat room, the user would expect to start
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`seeing the communications that are happening in the
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`chat room.
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` Q And in order for that to happen, there
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`must be established a communication session with the
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`chat room, correct, even if the user does not type
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`text itself?
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` MS. RAYMOND: Objection.
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` Q Or herself?
`
` MS. RAYMOND: Objection
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