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`·2· ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`·4· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL
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`·5· · · · · · · · AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·6· · · · ·------------------------------
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`·7· · · · · · · SYMANTEC CORPORATION
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`·8· · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`10· · · · · · · · · ·FINJAN, INC.,
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`12· · · · ·------------------------------
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`13· · · · · · · ·Case IPR2015-01892
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`· · · · · · · · · Patent 8,677,494
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`14
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`·4· ·BRYAN CAVE LLP
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`·5· ·Attorneys for Petitioner
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`·6· · · · · · ·1290 Avenue of the Americas
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`·7· · · · · · ·#33
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`·8· · · · · · ·New York, New York 10104
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`·9· ·BY:· · · ·JOSEPH J. RICHETTI, ESQ.
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`10· · · · · · ·HASSAN ALBAKRI, ESQ.
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`13· ·KRAMER LEVIN NAFTALIS & FRANKEL LLP
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`14· ·Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`15· · · · -------------------------------
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`15· · · · · · ·1177 Avenue of the Americas
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`17· · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
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`18· · · · · · · ·SYLVIA HALL-ELLIS
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`19· · · · · · ·THURSDAY, MAY 26, 2016
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`20· · · · · · · · · ·10:00 a.m.
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`24
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`25· ·Reported by:· Adrienne M. Mignano, RPR
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`· · · · · · · · · ·Job Number:· J0357924
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · May 26, 2016
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · 9:00 a.m.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · New York, New York
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · ·Deposition of SYLVIA HALL-ELLIS,
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`10· ·held at the offices of Bryan Cave, 1290
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`11· ·Avenue of the Americas, New York, New York,
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`12· ·pursuant to Notice, before Adrienne M.
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`13· ·Mignano, a Notary Public of the State of New
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`14· ·York.
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`16· · · · · · ·New York, New York 10036
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`17· ·BY:· · · ·SHANNON H. HEDVAT, ESQ.
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`18· · · · · · ·MICHAEL LEE, ESQ.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·S-Y-L-V-I-A· ·H-A-L-L - E-L-L-I-S, called
`·3· · · · · as a witness, having been duly sworn
`·4· · · · · by a Notary Public, was examined and
`·5· · · · · testified as follows:
`·6· ·EXAMINATION BY
`·7· ·MS. HEDVAT:
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·Good morning, Dr. Hall-Ellis.
`·9· · · ·A· · ·Good morning.
`10· · · ·Q· · ·May I have you state your full
`11· ·name and spell it for the record?
`12· · · ·A· · ·Sylvia, S-Y-L-V-I-A; middle
`13· ·initial D; last name Hall-Ellis,
`14· ·H-A-L-L - E-L-L-I-S.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·Thank you.
`16· · · · · · ·If you can also state your
`17· ·address for the record.
`18· · · ·A· · ·My home address is 2301 South
`19· ·Holly Street, Denver, Colorado 80222.
`20· · · ·Q· · ·Do you understand why we're here
`21· ·today?
`22· · · ·A· · ·Yes, I do.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·Have you been deposed before?
`24· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`25· · · ·Q· · ·And in how many contacts or how
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·many cases?
`·3· · · ·A· · ·In what period of time?
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·In total.· In the span of your
`·5· ·life, let's start there.
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Best guess.
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Three times.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·Three times?
`·9· · · ·A· · ·Uh-huh.
`10· · · ·Q· · ·How many in the last ten years?
`11· · · ·A· · ·Three times.
`12· · · ·Q· · ·Three times.
`13· · · · · · ·What were the nature of those
`14· ·cases?
`15· · · ·A· · ·What are you asking me?
`16· · · ·Q· · ·What type of lawsuits were they?
`17· ·For example, were they patent infringement
`18· ·lawsuits?
`19· · · ·A· · ·All of them had to do with
`20· ·intellectual property and prior art.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·So you understand today that I'm
`22· ·going to ask you questions.· I ask you in
`23· ·return, if there is anything that I ask
`24· ·you that you need clarification, you don't
`25· ·understand, that you ask me; otherwise,
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·we'll proceed under the understanding that
`·3· ·you know what I'm asking.
`·4· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`·5· · · ·Q· · ·Is there any reason why you
`·6· ·cannot provide your best and accurate
`·7· ·testimony today?
`·8· · · ·A· · ·No.
`·9· · · ·Q· · ·When were you asked to start
`10· ·working on this matter?
`11· · · ·A· · ·Late summer of last year.
`12· · · ·Q· · ·And who contacted you?
`13· · · ·A· · ·Mr. Albakri.
`14· · · ·Q· · ·Did you work with counsel here
`15· ·today or their firm on several matters?
`16· · · ·A· · ·At that time, no.
`17· · · ·Q· · ·And today?
`18· · · ·A· · ·Yes, I have worked with them on
`19· ·another matter.
`20· · · ·Q· · ·And how many other matters?
`21· · · ·A· · ·This firm?
`22· · · ·Q· · ·Yes.
`23· · · ·A· · ·One.
`24· · · ·Q· · ·And what is the fee arrangement
`25· ·you have for working in connection with
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·this matter?
`·3· · · ·A· · ·It is my usual rate.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·What is your usual rate?
`·5· · · ·A· · ·I charge $300 an hour plus
`·6· ·reasonable expenses.
`·7· · · ·Q· · ·And how many hours have you
`·8· ·worked in connection with this matter?
`·9· · · ·A· · ·I cannot tell you exactly.
`10· · · ·Q· · ·Could you ballpark?
`11· · · ·A· · ·15 approximately.
`12· · · ·Q· · ·When were you first notified
`13· ·about having this scheduled deposition?
`14· · · ·A· · ·Earlier this month.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·Earlier this month?
`16· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`17· · · ·Q· · ·Did you have any conflicts?· Is
`18· ·this the first available date that you
`19· ·had?
`20· · · ·A· · ·This is my first available date
`21· ·this month, yes.
`22· · · ·Q· · ·And when was that first -- when
`23· ·did you first notify counsel that today
`24· ·was the first day you were available for a
`25· ·deposition?
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`Page 8
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.
`·3· · · · · · ·If you can answer.
`·4· · · ·A· · ·I don't remember.
`·5· · · ·Q· · ·Did you meet with anyone in
`·6· ·preparing for the deposition today?
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·And who did you meet with?
`·9· · · ·A· · ·I met with these gentlemen to my
`10· ·left from this firm.
`11· · · ·Q· · ·And when did that meeting occur?
`12· · · ·A· · ·We met yesterday.
`13· · · ·Q· · ·For about how long?
`14· · · ·A· · ·Six hours.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·So in the nature of the work
`16· ·that you have performed for this action,
`17· ·can you tell me a little bit of what
`18· ·exactly you were asked to do from the
`19· ·beginning?
`20· · · ·A· · ·I was asked to explore and
`21· ·investigate the date of the availability
`22· ·of prior art.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·And what do you mean by
`24· ·"availability"?
`25· · · ·A· · ·Availability to the public in
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·terms of cataloging and accessibility
`·3· ·through a library.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·How do you define "the public"?
`·5· · · ·A· · ·The public is a person
`·6· ·interested in the content of the item in
`·7· ·question.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·And how did you generally go
`·9· ·about determining this information, in
`10· ·determining the public availability of the
`11· ·documents that were provided to you?
`12· · · ·A· · ·I have a process that I use in
`13· ·terms of doing that because I am a
`14· ·librarian of long standing, and have great
`15· ·familiarity with the tools that are used
`16· ·by professional users for this kind of
`17· ·work.· So I have a process that I use and
`18· ·I use it every time.
`19· · · ·Q· · ·Every time in what sense?
`20· · · ·A· · ·Every time I want to know the
`21· ·availability, current availability,
`22· ·description, ownership, I have a process
`23· ·that I follow developed over many years of
`24· ·practice.
`25· · · ·Q· · ·And what is your current
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·position today?
`·3· · · ·A· · ·In relation to this activity or
`·4· ·what I do?
`·5· · · ·Q· · ·What you do.
`·6· · · ·A· · ·I am the director of grant and
`·7· ·resource development for the Colorado
`·8· ·Community College system.
`·9· · · ·Q· · ·And what is your role in that
`10· ·position?
`11· · · ·A· · ·I coordinate efforts with our
`12· ·member colleges to secure funding that
`13· ·supports programs and services for our
`14· ·155,000 students.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·And what is your educational
`16· ·background?
`17· · · ·A· · ·I have a very long educational
`18· ·background detailed in my CV.· I went to
`19· ·college initially and got a BA degree. I
`20· ·have a Master's in library information
`21· ·science from the University of North
`22· ·Texas.· I have graduate studies at the
`23· ·University of Texas at San Antonio. I
`24· ·have a Master's degree from the University
`25· ·of Denver.· And I have a Ph.D. from the
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·University of Pittsburgh in library and
`·3· ·information science.
`·4· · · · · · ·MS. HEDVAT:· Can you mark this
`·5· · · ·please.
`·6· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Declaration of
`·7· · · ·Sylvia Hall-Ellis, September 2015, was
`·8· · · ·marked as Hall-Ellis Exhibit 1 for
`·9· · · ·identification, as of this date.)
`10· ·BY MS. HEDVAT:
`11· · · ·Q· · ·You were just handed what has
`12· ·been marked as Exhibit 1.
`13· · · · · · ·Do you recognize this document?
`14· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing document)
`15· · · ·A· · ·Yes, I do.
`16· · · ·Q· · ·What is it?
`17· · · ·A· · ·This is a declaration that I
`18· ·prepared in September of 2015.
`19· · · ·Q· · ·If I can ask you to just turn to
`20· ·the last page of that document.
`21· · · ·A· · ·Uh-huh.
`22· · · ·Q· · ·Can you confirm that that is
`23· ·your signature?
`24· · · ·A· · ·Yes, it is.
`25· · · ·Q· · ·And you mentioned that you
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·prepared this in September of last year?
`·3· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·Who assisted you in preparing
`·5· ·this declaration?
`·6· · · ·A· · ·I had some assistance from Mr.
`·7· ·Albakri.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·Anyone else?
`·9· · · ·A· · ·I do not have knowledge of other
`10· ·assistance.
`11· · · ·Q· · ·Who did the primary writing for
`12· ·this declaration?
`13· · · ·A· · ·Well, me.
`14· · · ·Q· · ·And so I guess I'm a little
`15· ·confused when you say you don't have any
`16· ·knowledge of anyone else?
`17· · · ·A· · ·Well, I don't do the formatting,
`18· ·I don't do the printing, so I don't know
`19· ·if someone here did that.· I don't know
`20· ·who that would be.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·Now, does this declaration
`22· ·contain all of your opinions regarding
`23· ·what you mentioned earlier, public
`24· ·availability of documents?
`25· · · ·A· · ·Yes.· This was definitely based
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·on my work and my understanding at the
`·3· ·time that it was written.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·And who provided you the
`·5· ·documents that you were asked to research
`·6· ·the public availability of?
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Mr. Albakri sent me the
`·8· ·citations and the documents.
`·9· · · ·Q· · ·How did you decide what to do in
`10· ·order to determine the public availability
`11· ·of these documents?
`12· · · ·A· · ·As I mentioned before, I have
`13· ·been doing this a very long time and I
`14· ·have a process that I follow, and I
`15· ·followed it in this case.
`16· · · ·Q· · ·When you say you have been doing
`17· ·this, does that mean researching; what
`18· ·exactly does that mean?
`19· · · ·A· · ·I have been cataloging and
`20· ·describing items for the public in
`21· ·catalogs since 1973.· So I would say
`22· ·that's a pretty long time.
`23· · · · · · ·And I have a process refined
`24· ·over time given the advances in technology
`25· ·that we use, and that is the process I
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·used for this work.
`·3· · · ·Q· · ·And is this process something
`·4· ·that you do on a daily basis in your
`·5· ·current position?
`·6· · · ·A· · ·I would say that I do this about
`·7· ·three days a week.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·And is that in connection with
`·9· ·your position or in being retained, as you
`10· ·have been here today?
`11· · · ·A· · ·This is in connection with my
`12· ·work that I do for San Jose State
`13· ·University.
`14· · · ·Q· · ·Thank you.
`15· · · · · · ·Now, if I can direct you to
`16· ·paragraph 6 of your declaration.
`17· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`18· · · ·Q· · ·I'm going to ask you, if you
`19· ·look at the sentence beginning "Today MARC
`20· ·or Machine Readable Cataloging is the
`21· ·primary communication protocol."
`22· · · ·A· · ·Uh-huh.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·What do you mean by "primary
`24· ·communication protocol"?
`25· · · ·A· · ·MARC is an abbreviation for
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·Machine Readable Cataloging.· It is part
`·3· ·of an internationally adopted standard,
`·4· ·Z39.2, which has been around for a number
`·5· ·of decades.
`·6· · · · · · ·We refine it; we use it; it is
`·7· ·continually reaffirmed by our community in
`·8· ·practice.· It is the way in which
`·9· ·computers from one library to another are
`10· ·able to exchange bibliographic and other
`11· ·data that are useful to their users.
`12· · · ·Q· · ·And are you aware of how many
`13· ·libraries were using this in the 1990s?
`14· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.· Form.
`15· · · ·A· · ·If you're looking for a number,
`16· ·no.
`17· · · · · · ·What I can tell you is that at
`18· ·that time, as many librairies as could
`19· ·inform the investment to purchase
`20· ·integrated library systems that use this
`21· ·type of data were doing so.· Larger ones
`22· ·first, smaller ones later.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·If I can direct your attention
`24· ·now to paragraph 7 of your declaration,
`25· ·the last sentence, or the last line on
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·page 3.
`·3· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·You say, "A cataloguer at an
`·5· ·OCLC participating member institution".
`·6· · · · · · ·Can you tell me what a
`·7· ·"cataloguer" is?
`·8· · · ·A· · ·That is a really good question,
`·9· ·and I am so pleased you asked me that.
`10· · · · · · ·Cataloging and the competency,
`11· ·knowledge and technical skills involved is
`12· ·the area of my research.· I am known
`13· ·nationally and internationally for my work
`14· ·in this area, and, in fact, the new
`15· ·standards of this kind of work from the
`16· ·American Library Association, which is
`17· ·currently being developed, are based on my
`18· ·research.
`19· · · · · · ·Cataloguer is a person who takes
`20· ·an item in any format, in any language,
`21· ·and prepares bibliographic descriptions
`22· ·that are placed or transcribed into the
`23· ·MARC standard so that they are available
`24· ·to any library that chooses to use them
`25· ·because they own the item in question.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · ·Q· · ·Thank you.
`·3· · · · · · ·And who are "OCLC participating
`·4· ·member institutions"?
`·5· · · ·A· · ·Another really great question.
`·6· · · · · · ·OCLC is a large not-for-profit
`·7· ·corporation located outside of Columbus,
`·8· ·Ohio.· It was founded in 1967.· It is the
`·9· ·largest database for this type of
`10· ·bibliographic data in the world, has 22
`11· ·billion holdings, and has about 170,000
`12· ·participating libraries.· They call them
`13· ·members.· They are participating in terms
`14· ·of council advisory groups, thought
`15· ·partners and developers.
`16· · · ·Q· · ·And do you know when the first
`17· ·participating member became one?
`18· · · ·A· · ·It was actually a group of
`19· ·academic institutions in the state of Ohio
`20· ·that came together and determined that
`21· ·sharing these data would save them time
`22· ·and money.· So they started as a
`23· ·consortium.
`24· · · · · · ·They incorporated.· It was
`25· ·slightly after that, in 1971, that they
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·actually began building the database.· The
`·3· ·first participants were in Ohio.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·And that was in what year again?
`·5· · · ·A· · ·1967.
`·6· · · ·Q· · ·Now, if I can turn your
`·7· ·attention to the top of the next page,
`·8· ·also part of paragraph 7.
`·9· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`10· · · ·Q· · ·What do you mean by
`11· ·"instantaneously available"?
`12· · · ·A· · ·An interesting concept.· Glad
`13· ·you brought that up.
`14· · · · · · ·The system now is really very
`15· ·dynamic, and when one updates a record,
`16· ·that is to say, indicates ownership and
`17· ·wishes to contribute the bibliographic
`18· ·record to the local catalog where the item
`19· ·is held, that also sends the record to the
`20· ·permanent database in Columbus, and it is,
`21· ·therefore, available to anyone seeking it
`22· ·and they can see it.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·And you mentioned that that is
`24· ·the way it operates now?
`25· · · ·A· · ·It always operated that way from
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·the system point of view.· For the local
`·3· ·library, not so easy.· We had our systems
`·4· ·not able to accept the data directly
`·5· ·earlier and that is a change that has come
`·6· ·about in the last couple of decades, but
`·7· ·the system operation has not changed.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·Okay.
`·9· · · · · · ·So this concept of instantaneous
`10· ·availability really has only been in place
`11· ·across the member institutions in more
`12· ·recent --
`13· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.· Form.
`14· · · ·A· · ·No, let me try again.
`15· · · · · · ·The instantaneous part is the
`16· ·loading and indexing of the bibliographic
`17· ·record in the one or local library.· The
`18· ·participating library's contribution to
`19· ·the larger database in Ohio has always
`20· ·been immediate.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·So to clarify then:· This last
`22· ·sentence here that we were looking at, you
`23· ·state, "It is instantaneously available to
`24· ·any OCLC participating member, and,
`25· ·therefore, available to the public."
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · · · · ·What I seem to be understanding
`·3· ·is that there is a distinction between
`·4· ·availability to the members and
`·5· ·availability to the public?
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.· Form.
`·7· · · · · · ·You can answer.
`·8· · · ·A· · ·Not exactly.· At this point in
`·9· ·time, they are simultaneous.· Because OCLC
`10· ·developed a front end browser called
`11· ·WorldCat, the public can see that from the
`12· ·local library and from their homes.
`13· ·Anybody on the internet, you can do it
`14· ·from this room should you choose to.· You
`15· ·can see something -- you can see something
`16· ·updated five seconds ago, two hours ago.
`17· · · ·Q· · ·And you mentioned that's as of
`18· ·today.
`19· · · · · · ·Are you aware of what it was
`20· ·like, for example, in the 1990s?
`21· · · ·A· · ·Of course.· I've been using the
`22· ·system since the 1970s, so, yes, in the
`23· ·1990s, depending on the library, the
`24· ·loading of data might take a separate step
`25· ·within the library.· So there are systems
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·where people had to come in and virtually
`·3· ·carry diskettes and load a system.
`·4· · · · · · ·Another method that was used by
`·5· ·larger libraries was through a tape
`·6· ·subscription to OCLC, whereby a
`·7· ·nine-track, half-inch tape, usually made
`·8· ·by 3M or BASF, was delivered to a library
`·9· ·on a regular basis, and the system's
`10· ·people put that on a tape drive and loaded
`11· ·their records that way.· They were indexed
`12· ·and it usually was done off time when the
`13· ·library was closed so that it did not
`14· ·disrupt regular activities.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·Just for completeness, can you
`16· ·explain what 3M and BASF are, please?
`17· · · ·A· · ·Those are corporate
`18· ·manufacturers of magnetic medium, and they
`19· ·were major suppliers, continue to be major
`20· ·suppliers of those type of products.· They
`21· ·are two companies from which I bought
`22· ·magnetic tape when I needed it.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·Now, if I can direct your
`24· ·attention to paragraph 8 of your
`25· ·declaration, the last sentence.· And in
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`Page 22
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·the last portion of that sentence, you
`·3· ·mention "modifying the record".
`·4· · · · · · ·Can you explain to me what
`·5· ·"modifying the record" means?
`·6· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`·7· · · · · · ·As a community of practice over
`·8· ·the years, librarians have developed a
`·9· ·number of tools that we use in terms of
`10· ·describing items bibliographically.· One
`11· ·of the issues is that we may have local
`12· ·practices which ask us to do some things
`13· ·that are important within our constituency
`14· ·or community that others do not want to
`15· ·use, do not need to use, or have decided
`16· ·not to use.
`17· · · · · · ·So there are some modifications
`18· ·that we can do locally that are only
`19· ·present in our library, and others can do
`20· ·as their local practices dictate.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·And can you explain to me what
`22· ·type of information you would be
`23· ·modifying?
`24· · · ·A· · ·Sure.· I'll give you a
`25· ·relatively straightforward and simple
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`Page 23
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·example which is fairly common.
`·3· · · · · · ·I'm at an academic institution,
`·4· ·I describe this item that we acquired, it
`·5· ·is a book.· I need to place it within the
`·6· ·collection and I assign a classification
`·7· ·number that is funny, it starts with
`·8· ·letters and has numbers following. I
`·9· ·update the record.· I said we have it,
`10· ·it's wonderful.
`11· · · · · · ·Down the road, my colleague at
`12· ·the public library has the same item.
`13· ·They have purchased it.· It is in their
`14· ·collection.· But when they look at my
`15· ·record, when my colleague sees the record
`16· ·I created, he or she sees that I have
`17· ·classified this item from my collection
`18· ·using the Library of Congress
`19· ·classification scheme, but in the public
`20· ·library, the more common classification is
`21· ·using the Dewey Decimal System, which we
`22· ·all learned in elementary school, and it
`23· ·only has numbers.· There is no notation of
`24· ·that in the record I created because I
`25· ·have no need for it.· My colleague has to
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`Page 24
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·modify the record and add that number so
`·3· ·that when he or she produces a spine label
`·4· ·and the record that the public sees, the
`·5· ·number that matches the item in the public
`·6· ·library is distinct and correct, and that
`·7· ·modification will appear in the local ILS
`·8· ·for the public library.· It will not
`·9· ·appear in the academic library catalog
`10· ·even though they use the same
`11· ·bibliographic record and own the same
`12· ·item.
`13· · · ·Q· · ·Now, if I can direct your
`14· ·attention to paragraph 9 of your
`15· ·declaration.
`16· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`17· · · ·Q· · ·The last sentence beginning with
`18· ·"The marked records extracted from the
`19· ·OCLC database were generated".
`20· · · · · · ·What do you mean by "in the
`21· ·ordinary course of business"?
`22· · · ·A· · ·I would consider searching,
`23· ·retrieving, examining, and selecting a
`24· ·bibliographic record to be the ordinary
`25· ·course of business for a cataloguer.
`
`

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`Page 25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · ·Q· · ·Okay.
`·3· · · · · · ·And the sentence talks about
`·4· ·"records that were abstracted having been
`·5· ·generated in the ordinary course of
`·6· ·business", correct?
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Uh-huh.
`·8· · · ·Q· · ·What is the basis for your
`·9· ·knowledge as to how the records that you
`10· ·extracted in connection with this
`11· ·declaration were, in fact, generated in
`12· ·the ordinary course of business?
`13· · · ·A· · ·If I'm understanding you -- help
`14· ·me.· Are you asking me how did I figure
`15· ·out which records to extract?
`16· · · ·Q· · ·No, sorry.· Let me clarify.
`17· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`18· · · ·Q· · ·Do you understand -- for the
`19· ·records that you extracted in connection
`20· ·with this declaration, do you have
`21· ·firsthand knowledge as to whether they
`22· ·were generated in the ordinary course of
`23· ·business?
`24· · · ·A· · ·I have no reason to think
`25· ·otherwise.
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`Page 26
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · ·Q· · ·But do you have firsthand
`·3· ·knowledge of when and how those records
`·4· ·were generated?
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.· Form.
`·6· · · · · · ·You should answer.
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Are you asking me do I know the
`·8· ·people who generated them?
`·9· · · ·Q· · ·Sure.· Do you know the people
`10· ·who generated them?
`11· · · ·A· · ·Sometimes.· Sometimes not.
`12· · · ·Q· · ·And for the ones that you
`13· ·extracted in connection with this
`14· ·declaration, do you know?
`15· · · ·A· · ·I do not.
`16· · · ·Q· · ·If I can direct your attention
`17· ·back to paragraph 11 of your declaration.
`18· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`19· · · ·Q· · ·What do you mean by the date on
`20· ·which, "the date on which or shortly after
`21· ·the item was first acquired"?
`22· · · ·A· · ·Libraries buy a lot of stuff,
`23· ·various stuff, languages from various
`24· ·suppliers.· Generally the thing is to
`25· ·acquire catalog and place it out in the
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`Page 27
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·public area as quickly as possible.· So
`·3· ·there is no incentive and there is no
`·4· ·reason to delay that process.· The items
`·5· ·are handled as expeditiously as the
`·6· ·library's internal operations allow.
`·7· · · ·Q· · ·If I can direct your attention
`·8· ·to paragraph 12, you discuss the date of
`·9· ·creation here also?
`10· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`11· · · ·Q· · ·Can you explain to me the
`12· ·difference then between the creation date,
`13· ·and when an item or document affiliated
`14· ·with the creation date is first made
`15· ·available?
`16· · · ·A· · ·Can you clarify that a little
`17· ·bit?· I'm trying to distinguish exactly
`18· ·what you want me to tell you.
`19· · · ·Q· · ·For example, the beginning of
`20· ·paragraph 12 of your declaration, you
`21· ·discussed the date of creation for the
`22· ·MARC record.· And then later in that
`23· ·paragraph, at the bottom of page 6, you
`24· ·state, "When the MARC record is created in
`25· ·OCLC, it is available throughout the world
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`Page 28
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·to other libraries."
`·3· · · · · · ·This date of availability
`·4· ·"throughout the world", how does that
`·5· ·differ from the date of creation?
`·6· · · ·A· · ·It doesn't.· The date of
`·7· ·creation does not change.· It is
`·8· ·automatically supplied.· You cannot change
`·9· ·it.· The system absolutely does not
`10· ·tolerate any kind of modification in that
`11· ·area.
`12· · · · · · ·It is possible that there may be
`13· ·a short delay of a day if, in fact, the
`14· ·record is reviewed by a second person
`15· ·within the institution for correctness and
`16· ·accuracy.· We do that because any error of
`17· ·any kind affects indexing retrievability
`18· ·and we cannot tolerate that.
`19· · · · · · ·So the date it is created,
`20· ·that's it.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·And this one day delay, are you
`22· ·speaking solely in the context of how the
`23· ·system operates today?
`24· · · ·A· · ·It's always been that way.· That
`25· ·part of this process has never changed.
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`

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`Page 29
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·Some things have changed.· That one has
`·3· ·not.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·But the delay, the "one day
`·5· ·delay" --
`·6· · · ·A· · ·The library may cause that by
`·7· ·saying, second person, please review.· In
`·8· ·other instances, that has not happened, I
`·9· ·press the button, it is done.· The issue
`10· ·is if I submit the record, I can't change
`11· ·it.· So if I have an error, it is a
`12· ·laborious process to get any data element
`13· ·modified, but I can't modify the date no
`14· ·matter what.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·But it is possible for that
`16· ·delay to be more than a day?
`17· · · · · · ·MR. RICHETTI:· Objection.
`18· · · · · · ·Please answer.
`19· · · ·A· · ·There is no incentive for that,
`20· ·and I could not uniformily tell you who
`21· ·delays and who does not, and what reason
`22· ·that might be.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·If I can direct your attention
`24· ·to paragraph 14 of your declaration.
`25· · · · · · ·What do you mean by
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`Page 30
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·"authoritative databases"?
`·3· · · ·A· · ·Every time I'm asked to verify
`·4· ·something, I do a citation verification
`·5· ·because librarians verify everything to
`·6· ·make certain I am seeking exactly what I
`·7· ·am to find and that the citation is
`·8· ·accurate and complete.· More often than
`·9· ·not, it is important to me because a small
`10· ·detail may or may not be missing.
`11· · · · · · ·This database mentioned in
`12· ·paragraph 14 is one of the most -- one
`13· ·that I use quite often, because of its
`14· ·nature of gathering information about
`15· ·conferences, symposium, journals, and
`16· ·other kinds of scholarly papers related to
`17· ·the areas that IEEE is interested in both
`18· ·promoting and maintaining.
`19· · · ·Q· · ·If I can direct your attention
`20· ·to paragraph 15 through 17 of your
`21· ·declaration.
`22· · · · · · ·MS. HEDVAT:· Withdrawn.
`23· · · · · · ·Please mark this.
`24· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Paper Written by
`25· · · ·Forrest and Longstaff, was marked as
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`Page 31
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · ·Hall-Ellis Exhibit 2 for
`·3· · · ·identification, as of this date.)
`·4· ·BY MS. HEDVAT:
`·5· · · ·Q· · ·The court reporter has handed
`·6· ·you what has been marked as Exhibit 2.
`·7· · · · · · ·Are you familiar with this
`·8· ·document?
`·9· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing document)
`10· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`11· · · ·Q· · ·What is it?
`12· · · ·A· · ·This is a copy of the paper
`13· ·written by Forrest and Longstaff that I
`14· ·was asked to verify availability.
`15· · · ·Q· · ·When was the first time you saw
`16· ·this document?
`17· · · ·A· · ·This document was included in
`18· ·the initial request to verify public
`19· ·availability.· So last summer, late last
`20· ·summer.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·Who provided it to you?
`22· · · ·A· · ·Mr. Albakri sent me a copy
`23· ·initially.
`24· · · ·Q· · ·Do you have personal knowledge
`25· ·of whether this document -- I'm going to
`Page 32
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·refer to this as Forrest just for ease.
`·3· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·-- was publicly available prior
`·5· ·to the date that you were provided the
`·6· ·document?
`·7· · · ·A· · ·Oh, heavens, yes.· Oh, heavens,
`·8· ·yes, this is an old document.
`·9· · · ·Q· · ·But you mentioned that the first
`10· ·time you saw it was last summer, correct?
`11· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`12· · · · · · ·MS. HEDVAT:· Mark this.
`13· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Retrieval Screen
`14· · · ·Shot, was marked as Hall-Ellis Exhibit
`15· · · ·3 for identification, as of this
`16· · · ·date.)
`17· ·BY MS. HEDVAT:
`18· · · ·Q· · ·The court reporter has handed
`19· ·you what has been marked as Exhibit 3.
`20· · · · · · ·Do you recognize this document?
`21· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing document)
`22· · · ·A· · ·I can tell you what it is, so I
`23· ·guess yes.
`24· · · ·Q· · ·What is it?
`25· · · ·A· · ·This looks like it is the
`
`

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`Page 33
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·retrieval screen one would get when
`·3· ·searching for this Forrest article.
`·4· · · ·Q· · ·Do you know when this is from?
`·5· · · ·A· · ·I don't know.· Are you asking me
`·6· ·who created this document?
`·7· · · ·Q· · ·Who created this?
`·8· · · ·A· · ·This is from the IEEE database
`·9· ·is where this is from.
`10· · · ·Q· · ·Are you aware that this is an
`11· ·exhibit to your declaration?
`12· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`13· · · ·Q· · ·So when is it from?
`14· · · ·A· · ·It is from early September of
`15· ·2015.
`16· · · ·Q· · ·And when did you access this?
`17· · · ·A· · ·Before I wrote the declaration.
`18· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, MARC Record of
`19· · · ·Volume Where Forrest/Longstaff Paper
`20· · · ·Appears, was marked as Hall-Ellis
`21· · · ·Exhibit 4 for identification, as of
`22· · · ·this date.)
`23· ·BY MS. HEDVAT:
`24· · · ·Q· · ·Now, before we turn to Exhibit 4
`25· ·that was just handed to you, can you
`Page 34
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· ·ballpark the date on which you generated
`·3· ·Exhibit 3?
`·4· · · ·A· · ·Labor Day.
`·5· · · ·Q· · ·Labor Day.· Okay.· Thank you.
`·6· · · · · · ·Now, if I can turn your
`·7· ·attention to Exhibit 4 that was just
`·8· ·handed to you.
`·9· · · · · · ·Do you recognize this document?
`10· · · ·A· · ·Yes.
`11· · · ·Q· · ·What is it?
`12· · · ·A· · ·This is the MARC record for the
`13· ·volume in which Forrest appears.
`14· · · ·Q· · ·Okay.
`15· · · · · · ·And when was this generated?
`16· · · ·A· · ·Same day as the item marked
`17· ·number 3.
`18· · · ·Q· · ·And what was that date again?
`19· · · ·A· · ·I would suspect it was Labor
`20· ·Day.
`21· · · ·Q· · ·Labor Day of what year?
`22· · · ·A· · ·2015.
`23· · · ·Q· · ·That was the same with Exhibit
`24· ·3, correct?
`25· · · ·A· · ·That is correct.
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`Page 35
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`·1· · · · · · · · · Hall-Ellis
`·2· · · ·Q· · ·Now, if I can turn your
`·3· ·attention to paragraph 17 of your
`·4· ·declaration.
`·5· · · · · · ·What do you mean by "would have
`·6· ·been accessible to the public as of June
`·7· ·21, 1996"?
`·8· · · ·A· · ·As you can see in the MARC
`·9· ·record, the entered date is June 21, 1996.
`10· ·That is the date of creation for this MARC
`11· ·record.· It means that is the date that
`12· ·this appeared in the OCLC database and in
`13· ·WorldCat.
`14· · · ·Q· · ·Did you see the Forrest
`15· ·reference on June 21, 1996?
`16· · · ·A· · ·No.
`17· · · ·Q· · ·And where exactly in the MARC
`18· ·record are you referring?
`19· · · ·A· · ·Okay.
`20· · · · · · ·In the top box, the second
`21· ·section of the top box, in the third
`22· ·column is the word "Entered".
`23· · · ·Q· · ·Just to be clear, we ar