KENNETH WERNER
`
`Page 1
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`K.J. PRETECH CO., LTD., )
` )
` Petitioner, )Case IPR2015-01866
` )(U.S. 8,215,816)
`vs. )Case IPR2015-01867
` )(U.S. 7,537,370)
`INNOVATIVE DISPLAY )Case IPR2015-01868
`TECHNOLOGIES L.L.C., )(U.S. 7,434,974)
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENNETH WERNER
` September 21, 2016
` Volume 1
` * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
`ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENNETH WERNER, produced as a
`witness and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled
`and numbered cause on September 21, 2016, from 9:04
`a.m. until 3:47 p.m., before Suzanne Kelly, CSR No.
`1260, in and for the State of Texas, reported by
`stenographic method, at the Law Offices of Bragalone
`Conroy, P.C., located at Chase Tower, 2200 Ross
`Avenue, 4500 W, Dallas, Texas, pursuant to Federal
`Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on
`the record, if any.
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`212-279-9424
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
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`212-490-3430
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`K.J. Pretech Ex. 1026
`
`Pretech_000796
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`
`
`Page 1
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`K.J. PRETECH CO., LTD., )
` )
` Petitioner, )Case IPR2015-01866
` )(U.S. 8,215,816)
`vs. )Case IPR2015-01867
` )(U.S. 7,537,370)
`INNOVATIVE DISPLAY )Case IPR2015-01868
`TECHNOLOGIES L.L.C., )(U.S. 7,434,974)
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENNETH WERNER
` September 21, 2016
` Volume 1
` * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
`ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENNETH WERNER, produced as a
`witness and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled
`and numbered cause on September 21, 2016, from 9:04
`a.m. until 3:47 p.m., before Suzanne Kelly, CSR No.
`1260, in and for the State of Texas, reported by
`stenographic method, at the Law Offices of Bragalone
`Conroy, P.C., located at Chase Tower, 2200 Ross
`Avenue, 4500 W, Dallas, Texas, pursuant to Federal
`Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on
`the record, if any.
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`212-279-9424
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
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`212-490-3430
`
`K.J. Pretech Ex. 1026
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`Pretech_000796
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`
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 2
`
` APPEARANCES
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`Amanda K. Streff, Esq.
`MAYER BROWN, L.L.P.
`71 South Wacker Drive
`Chicago, Illinois 60606-4637
`Phone: 312.701.8645
`e-mail: astreff@mayerbrown.com
`Saqib Siddiqui, Esq. (For portions)
`MAYER BROWN, L.L.P.
`1999 K Street, N.W.
`Washington, D.C. 20006-1101
`Phone: 202.263.3167
`e-mail: ssiddiqui@mayerbrown.com
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`Justin B. Kimble, Esq.
`Bragalone Conroy, P.C.
`Chase Tower
`2200 Ross Avenue
`4500 W
`Dallas, Texas 75201-7924
`Phone: 214.785.6673
`e-mail: jkimble@bcpc-law.com
`
`212-279-9424
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 3
`
` INDEX
` Page No.
`Appearances................................. 2
` KENNETH WERNER
` Examination by Ms. Streff......... 4
`Signature and Changes ...................... 158
`Reporter's Certificate ..................... 160
` EXHIBITS
`NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1001 A copy of a United 14
` States patent
`Exhibit 1006 A copy of a 38-page 35
` document entitled,
` "Certification of
` Translation"
`Exhibit 1007 A copy of a 36-page 114, 143, 144
` document entitled,
` "Utility Model
` Publication"
`Exhibit 1008 A copy of a United 106
` States Patent
`Exhibit 1009 A copy of a 26-page 115, 156
` Japanese language
` document
`Exhibit 2006 A copy of a 40-page 8, 14
` document entitled,
` "Declaration of
` Kenneth Werner"
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`212-279-9424
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 4
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE COURT REPORTER: If you would
`raise your right hand, I'll administer the
`witness' oath to you.
` (Oath administered.)
` KENNETH WERNER,
`having sworn to testify the truth, the whole
`truth, and nothing but the truth testifies upon
`his oath as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. Mr. Werner, can you state your full name
`and address for the record, please?
` A. Kenneth Werner, 2 Shadybrook Lane,
`Norwalk, Connecticut 06854.
` Q. Mr. Werner, I represent P.J. Pretech in
`the case and I will be asking you a number of
`questions today. I know you've been deposed a
`number of times, but I'll just go over a couple
`of things before we get started.
` So first, I'll ask that you give
`oral responses rather than gestures so the Court
`Reporter can take down your answers. Do you
`understand that?
` A. I do.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 5
` Q. And if you answer a question that I ask,
`I'll assume you understood the question as asked.
`Is that fair?
` A. That's fair.
` Q. And if you need to take a break at any
`point, just let me know. All I ask is that if
`there's a question pending, you answer that
`question first, and then we can take a break.
`Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And you have taken an oath that binds
`you to give truthful testimony today. Do you
`understand that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is there any reason you cannot give
`truthful testimony?
` A. No.
` Q. I would like to begin with your
`preparation for today's deposition.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Did you meet with anyone to prepare for
`your deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Who did you meet with?
` A. Justin yesterday.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 6
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` Q. And how long did you meet with
`Mr. Kimble?
` A. For most of the day. I would say about
`six hours.
` Q. Did you have any other meetings to
`prepare for your deposition other than the one
`yesterday?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you spoken with anyone else to
`prepare for your deposition today?
` A. Yes. I spoke with --
` THE WITNESS: What's Bill's last
`name?
` MR. KIMBLE: Kennedy.
` THE WITNESS: I spoke with Bill
`Kennedy for -- for five minutes yesterday.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. And other than speaking with Mr. Kimble
`and Mr. Kennedy, have you spoken with anyone else
`to prepare for your deposition?
` A. I have not.
` Q. Did you review any documents to prepare
`for your deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And were any of those documents you had
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 7
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`not seen before?
` A. I reviewed documents prior to my meeting
`with Mr. Kimble, and then he also might have
`shown me a couple of additional documents I had
`not seen before, but I can't be sure of that.
` Q. What document did you review prior to
`meeting with Mr. Kimble?
` A. The patent at issue, the -- the other
`patents involved; the -- I'm trying to think what
`they're called. The institution orders,
`Mr. Credelle's declarations, and I believe one
`portion of Mr. Credelle's -- I'm sorry. What is
`this called? This?
` MR. KIMBLE: Deposition.
` THE WITNESS: Thank you. And a
`small portion of Mr. Credelle's deposition.
` Now that I'm thinking about it,
`the -- the documents, that -- all the documents I
`saw yesterday were documents I had seen
`previously.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. And the patents you mentioned, are you
`referring to the three patents at issue in these
`IPRs?
` A. The three patents at issue, and, also,
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 8
`the other -- the patents put forth to presumably
`counter those patents.
` Q. Did you also review the declaration you
`submitted in each of the three cases?
` A. Yes. I did.
` Q. Any other documents you reviewed in
`preparation for your deposition?
` A. Those that are listed in the appendix of
`the declaration and if any additional document is
`notated in the text of the declaration, that
`would be included. Beyond that, nothing
`specifically, but clearly, I bring a long history
`of -- of research and reading and -- and
`discussion to the proceeding.
` Q. And Mr. Werner, I'm going to hand you
`what has been previously marked as
`"Exhibit 2006," which is your declaration in
`IPR2015-01868.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I believe Appendix A to your
`declaration is your CV. Is that right?
` A. One moment. Yes, it is.
` Q. And I would like to just briefly go over
`some of your employment background.
` A. Okay.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 9
` Q. In 1968, you joined RCA Solid State
`Division. Is that right?
` A. If that is the date that's here, it's a
`long time. One moment. Yes, I believe, it was
`1968 and that's what it says here.
` Q. And at RCA, your job was to design
`semiconductor devices. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. At RCA, you didn't design any backlight
`units. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And at RCA, you also didn't design any
`liquid crystal displays. Is that right?
` A. That is correct. It would have been --
`been rather early to do that. I did participate
`in a meeting in which the very early dynamic
`scattering display developed at -- at RCA
`laboratories was -- was being demonstrated,
`although, that could hardly be called a display
`at that time. That was really a laboratory
`demonstration of the optic electronic effect.
` Q. Okay. At RCA, you weren't involved in
`the hands-on design of liquid crystal displays.
`Right?
` A. That is correct.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 10
` Q. You're currently a consultant at Nutmeg
`Consultants. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And your job at Nutmeg Consultants, that
`doesn't involve any design or engineering of
`liquid crystal displays. Is that right?
` A. Let me think about the precise way to
`answer that. I am called upon to evaluate a
`liquid -- a liquid crystal displays and evaluate
`their appropriateness to application to
`particular products and uses but I do not,
`myself, design or engineer these -- these
`devices.
` Q. And so your job as a principal at Nutmeg
`Consultants doesn't involve any hands-on design
`of backlight units. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And your job at Nutmeg Consultants
`doesn't involve any hands-on design of liquid
`crystal displays. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Taking one step back, when you -- you
`left RCA in 1971. Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And in 1971, you became a science editor
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 11
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`of "Choice Magazine"?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And your role as an editor didn't
`involve any hands-on design of backlight units.
`Is that right?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And it also didn't involve any hands-on
`design of liquid crystal displays?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And so since your time at RCA, which
`ended in 1971, you haven't performed any hands-on
`design work for backlight units. Is that right?
` A. Again, I have had extensive discussions
`with people who do those designs. I have been
`called upon to evaluate designs and suitability
`of such devices, but I have not done hands-on
`design, myself.
` Q. And so since 1971, you haven't done any
`hands-on design for backlight units. Correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. And since 1971, you also haven't done
`any hands-on design of liquid crystal displays?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. I would like to discuss the drafting of
`your 974 declaration.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 12
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` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And just so we're on the same page this
`morning, I'm going to be focused just on the
`974-case.
` A. I understand.
` Q. Can you describe for me the process of
`preparing your 974 declaration?
` A. The -- it starts off with a history
`of -- of discussion about the case with -- with
`Mr. Kimble, which now incorporates, you know, a
`fairly long history because it involves cases
`related to this as well as -- as well as this
`one.
` Then Mr. Kimble, based on those
`discussions, creates a rough draft.
` And then we go back and forth with
`the collaborative effort to bring that rough
`draft to the final declaration that you see.
` Q. Do you recall when you started working
`on your 974 declaration?
` A. That's a very good question. No. I
`would have to go back to my records to answer
`that question.
` Q. Do you recall how many hours you spent
`working on your 974 declaration?
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 13
` A. Not without looking at my computer, no.
` Q. Did you draft any portion of the initial
`draft of your 974 declaration?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: The initial draft was
`based on discussions, so my opinions and ideas
`were incorporated.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. And you mentioned you worked with
`Mr. Kimble to prepare your declaration. Did you
`work with anyone else?
` A. As I mentioned, it was a very brief
`conversation with Mr. Kennedy yesterday. Other
`than that, no.
` Q. Looking at Appendix B to your
`declaration.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Is this everything you considered in
`preparing your declaration?
` A. Everything specific that I can -- you
`know, that I can think of at this time. Again,
`there was, you know, a long history of study on
`these issues, that obviously inform my decision.
`But in terms of specific references, this appears
`to be it.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 14
` Q. Mr. Werner, I'm going to hand you what
`was previously marked as "K.J. Pretech 1001,"
`which is the 974 patent.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you are familiar with Exhibit 1001.
`Correct?
` A. I am.
` Q. And that's the patent at issue in your
`declaration, Exhibit 2006?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Can you describe in general terms the
`invention claimed in the 974 patent?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: The -- there are --
`there are several claims involved, but do you
`mean the general app -- the general point of
`the -- of the patent?
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. Well --
` A. I'm not quite -- in other words, I'm not
`quite sure I understand your question.
` Q. Let me rephrase it. Can you explain
`what problem was solved by the 974 patent?
` MR. KIMBLE: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Let me refer to my
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 15
`declaration, since I expect I've said that there.
`And I do. So, I might as well read it to you,
`Paragraph 25, "The 974 patent relates generally
`to light emitting panel assemblies including
`several different light emitting panel on the
`configurations which provide for better control
`of the light output from the panel assemblies and
`for more efficient utilization of light which
`results in greater light output from the panel
`assemblies."
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. It's okay to put in your own words what
`the problem is with the 974 patent involved.
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I
`can do any better than the patent writer
`has -- has done on his own. I don't know how --
`how else I would restate that, that added
`anything to his description.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. Let's look at Claim 1 of the 974 patent.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And that's one of the claims at issue in
`this case. Correct?
` A. I assume it is. I would have to check
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 16
`my declaration to be sure. I've been doing a lot
`of reading. So...
` Q. Do you have Claim 1 in front of you?
` A. I have Claim 1 in front of me and should
`I look in and -- and check that this is indeed
`one of the claims that I discussed in my
`declaration?
` Q. I think you'll find it on Page 2.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. And so can you describe in your own
`words what is claimed in Claim 1 of the 974
`patent?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure
`what -- whether my words will do any better
`than -- than the Patent Owner's words.
` "A light-emitting patent assembly
`comprising of at least a light emitting panel
`member having a light entry surface and a light
`emitting surface. At least one LED light source
`position near or against the light entrance
`surface and a tray or housing having a cavity or
`recess in which the panel member is entirely
`received, wherein the panel member has a pattern
`of light extracting deformities on or in at least
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`one surface to cause light to be emitted from the
`light emitting service of the panel member and
`the tray or housing, includes end walls and side
`walls that act as edge -- as end edge reflectors
`and side edge reflectors for the panel member to
`reflect light that would otherwise exit the panel
`member through an end edge and -- and/or side
`edge back into the panel member and toward the
`pattern of light extracting deformities for
`causing additional light to be emitted from the
`light emitting surface of the panel member
`wherein the tray or housing provides structural
`support to the panel member and has posts, tabs
`or other structural futures that provide a mount
`for mounting of the assembly into a large
`assembly or device."
` Q. You might need to slow down --
` THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. -- when you are reading for the Court
`Reporter.
` THE COURT REPORTER: I would
`appreciate it.
` THE WITNESS: I will certainly do
`that in the future.
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 18
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`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. You would agree with me that Mr. Parker
`didn't invent light emitting panel members?
`Correct?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: As is shown by other
`patents, other people were wrestling with this
`problem.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. So at the time of the 974 patent, light
`emitting panel members were known. Correct?
` A. Yes. They were.
` Q. And at the time of the 974 patent, LEDs
`were also known. Correct?
` A. Let me think about that. Let's see. In
`2008, they were certainly known. There were
`precursor patents here but certainly in 2008,
`LEDs were known.
` Q. Well, the 974 patent claims priority to
`June 27th, 1995. Is that your understanding?
` A. I will take your word for that.
` Q. And would you agree with me that LEDs
`were known in June -- as of June 27th, 1995?
` A. LEDs were known but it is my
`recollection that they were not yet widely used
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 19
`for -- for LCD backlighting because they were not
`yet sufficiently efficient. I would, you know,
`to be absolutely sure of that, I would have to
`check references, but I believe that is the case.
` Q. Mr. Parker isn't inventing -- or
`claiming he invented LEDs in the 974 patent.
`Correct?
` A. No. I do not see that he is claiming
`that.
` Q. And would you also agree with me that as
`of the priority date of the 974 patent, June,
`1995, it was known to use a tray or housing in
`light emitting assemblies?
` A. I could not say that.
` Q. Why not?
` A. Because I don't know that it was true.
`I -- I would have to do an extensive review of
`the literature to ascertain that.
` Q. Well, would you agree with me that
`Mr. Parker isn't claiming to have invented tray
`or housings in the 974 patent?
` A. I would have to look at this in that
`context, but he may very well be claiming
`to -- to invent a tray to be used to receive an
`LCD and to also be -- be using it to reflect a --
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 20
`
`any light meeting the edge.
` Again, I would have to do -- I
`would have to read his entire patent once again
`in detail to ascertain that, you know,
`definitely.
` Q. What is your understanding of the claim
`meaning of tray or housing as used in Claim 1 of
`the 974 patent?
` A. I -- I think I would need to see how
`Parker, himself, defines it and whether --
`whether or not he is saying something specific
`that he -- that goes beyond plain meaning.
` In other words, context. Context
`matters here, and I would have to go back
`and -- and read what he says within context.
` Q. Well, did you apply an understanding --
`or did you have an understanding of what was
`meant by "tray" or "housing" in Claim 1 when you
`analyzed the prior art in this proceeding?
` A. I -- I certainly did, but it was also
`based on a recent detailed reading of the patent,
`which clearly I have not -- I have not now done
`for a little while. So before I could reasonably
`answer your question, I would have to read what
`Parker has to say and what I -- what I said in my
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 21
`declaration about that issue. If you could
`direct me to the paragraph, I'd be happy to -- to
`look at that.
` Q. Well, sure. Mr. Parker only uses the
`word "tray" once in his specification. So why
`don't we look at that? If you would turn to
`Column 6.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And starting at Line 53, and I will give
`you a moment to read that paragraph.
` A. And you have a reference where -- where
`I addressed that in my declaration?
` Q. Well, you have opined that certain
`references don't disclose limitations of Claim 1.
`Correct?
` A. I -- I have. I'm not sure what you mean
`by that.
` Q. Well, you -- you said you would need to
`look at what Mr. Parker said about a tray or
`housing.
` A. Yes. And I would also -- I would also
`now like to see what I said in my declaration
`when -- when I had recently reviewed what Parker
`said and, you know, and other documents in -- in
`detail. Clearly, I don't have that -- that level
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 22
`of -- of freshness in my mind now, and I don't
`have all those resources at hand right now.
` Q. And, sir, I'll point you to your
`declaration, paragraphs 25 through 43 at your
`discussion of the 974 patent.
` A. Okay. Thank you.
` Q. Now, none of those paragraphs discuss
`Figure 6. Correct?
` A. Well, I wouldn't know that without
`reading through it.
` (Pause in proceedings.)
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Apparently I
`do not address tray at -- at all in my
`declaration, and I suppose that since my
`declaration is intended to counter erroneous
`comments made by -- by Tom Credelle that he did
`not bring this issue up -- up either. Full stop.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. So I'm trying to understand what you've
`just said. If --
` A. Apparently, I did not address this in my
`declaration as far as I can tell. And that must
`be because the -- my -- my mission in writing
`this declaration was to counter erroneous points
`made by -- by Tom Credelle in his -- in his
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 23
`declaration, and I assume he -- that this issue
`did not come up in his declaration and,
`therefore, I did not do any, you know, do
`anything to counter it.
` Q. Well, couldn't it also mean that you
`didn't disagree with what was in Mr. Credelle's
`declaration regarding Figure 6?
` A. In that case, we'd have to go back to
`Mr. Credelle's declaration and see what he has to
`say about it. I have no recollection of that at
`this point.
` Q. And so what is your understanding of the
`tray or housing limitation in Claim 1 of the 974
`patent?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Could you repeat that
`question, please?
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. Yes. What is your understanding of the
`tray or housing limitation in Claim 1 of the 974
`patent?
` A. The -- in Claim 1, Parker is -- Parker's
`limitation incorporates not -- not just the tray
`but incorporates the tray in a -- in a context of
`various things a tray does and, you know, and in
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 24
`that rather long claim that I read, you can see
`that he's not -- at least not here -- simply
`claiming the tray. He's claiming the tray and
`how it -- it interacts with other components of
`the -- of the structure.
` Q. In your opinion, can the tray or housing
`be multiple parts?
` A. As -- as Parker illustrates it in the --
`in the figure we were just looking at, it
`is -- it appears to be a -- a single-molding with
`continuous walls. So, as -- as he illustrates
`it, it is a one-part structure.
` Q. So in your opinion, tray or housing, as
`used in Claim 1 must be one solid piece?
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: No. I don't think I
`have said that. In fact, as I think we commented
`as far as I can tell, I do not mention "tray" at
`all in my declaration. Let me go back to Claim
`1, because it is complicated. And let me see if
`I can just focus on the portions of Claim 1 that
`relate to the structure of the tray.
` "A tray or housing having a cavity
`or recess." Trying not to talk about the
`other -- other elements of the claim that relate
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 25
`
`to the tray.
` "The tray or housing includes end
`walls and side walls." And -- and in the
`limitation of Claim 1, he's talking about the
`tray or housing, so provides structural support
`to the panel member and has post tabs and other
`structural features.
` I interpret the way he is saying
`that as saying that in this instance, there --
`there are these features. You know, as part of
`the limitation of Claim 1 but not that a tray or
`housing must have those features. What the tray
`or housing must have is -- is end walls and side
`walls. So nowhere here does he say that the
`housing must be made -- sorry -- that the tray
`must be made in one piece, and he also talks
`about a housing that is not a tray.
` Q. So just focusing on the tray portion of
`Claim 1, can the tray be made up of multiple
`parts?
` A. Since -- since Parker does not address
`that issue, he simply says it has to have end
`walls and side walls. So, one can then assume
`that the tray can be made up of -- of one or more
`parts.
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`Page 26
` Q. And do you agree it could be made up of
`one, or more materials as well?
` A. Parker does not -- does not address that
`issue. So he's, you know, he does not specify
`that one way or the other.
` Q. So you would agree, then, that the tray
`could be made up of one material or multiple
`materials?
` A. There is no limitation specified here
`on -- on -- on the number of materials.
` Q. What is your understanding of the
`difference between a tray and a housing as before
`in the asserted claims?
` A. A tray has a bottom and I was going to
`say four sides. That's not correct. If it's a
`rectangular tray, yes, it has a bottom and four
`sides, but it can be of -- of any shape, and it
`has a bottom and a continuous wall around the
`tray.
` A "housing" is a very general term.
` Q. Why do you say that a "housing is a very
`general term"?
` A. In that unlike a tray, you know,
`where -- where most -- most people would -- would
`agree to the general form of a tray, a housing
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`Page 27
`can be of -- of many different shapes. It can
`have -- it does not have to be continuous in my
`view. It can -- whereas a tray would generally
`be considered to have the bottom on the bottom, a
`housing could have an opening on the top, bottom,
`or any side, so it's a housing could be something
`like a, you know, a completely enclosed box, or
`it could be a framework that has -- that has many
`openings.
` So, it -- that is what I meant when
`I said it is a very general term and is does not
`have a -- as -- is not as defined as a tray is.
` Q. And why is it your opinion that "tray"
`as used in Claim 1, must have continuous walls?
` A. That is the -- the general understanding
`of the tray.
` MR. KIMBLE: Object to the form of
`that question.
`BY MS. STREFF:
` Q. Okay. Well, is that the understanding
`of the term as used in the 974 patent?
` A. The -- it is what is illustrated in
`Figure 6 that we were looking at before, yes,
`it's what's illustrated in Figure 6 and
`when -- and when Parker refers to it in Claim 1,
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`KENNETH WERNER
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`Page 28
`he says, again, the tray or housing includes end
`walls and side walls.
` So both Figure 6 and that reference
`to the -- to the structure of the tray in Claim 1
`is consistent with the -- the ordinary meaning of
`the term.
` Q. Are you interpreting the language in
`walls and side walls to mean that the walls of
`the tray must be continuous?
` A. In -- in combination with Figure 6, yes,
`I am.
` Q. But you would agree that Claim 1 doesn't
`recite a requirement for continuous walls of a
`tray? Right?
` A. I would interpret it to mean continuous.
` Q. Looking at the end of Claim 1, the tray
`or housing must also have post tabs or other
`structural features? Right?
` A. Wherein he's not saying that a tray for
`housing always has post or structural features
`but it does within the context of Claim 1.
` Q. In the context of Claim 1 and the 974
`patent, what is your understanding of the plain
`meaning of the a structural feature that provides
`support?
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`Page 29
` A. A structural feature that provides
`support. I can't -- I can't re-word it any
`other -- any other way that would add anything.
` Q. Well, what is your understanding of the
`plain meaning of the structural feature that
`provides a mount in the context of Claim 1?
` A. It's a mount for mounting of the
`assembly onto a larger assembly or device. There
`are many ways of mounting and connecting
`subassemblies. And just for example, spring
`clips, and there's
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