(cid:55)(cid:85)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:86)(cid:70)(cid:85)(cid:76)(cid:83)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:82)(cid:73)(cid:3)(cid:46)(cid:72)(cid:89)(cid:76)(cid:81)(cid:3)(cid:45)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:68)(cid:85)(cid:87)(cid:76)(cid:81)
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`(cid:39)(cid:68)(cid:87)(cid:72)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:48)(cid:68)(cid:92)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:24)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:19)(cid:20)(cid:25)
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`(cid:38)(cid:68)(cid:86)(cid:72)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:40)(cid:17)(cid:44)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:88)(cid:3)(cid:51)(cid:82)(cid:81)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:49)(cid:72)(cid:48)(cid:82)(cid:88)(cid:85)(cid:86)(cid:3)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:71)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:82)(cid:80)(cid:83)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:92)(cid:15)(cid:3)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:68)(cid:79)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:16)(cid:89)(cid:16)(cid:3)(cid:41)(cid:88)(cid:85)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:76)(cid:91)(cid:3)
`(cid:55)(cid:72)(cid:70)(cid:75)(cid:81)(cid:82)(cid:79)(cid:82)(cid:74)(cid:76)(cid:72)(cid:86)(cid:3)(cid:37)(cid:17)(cid:57)(cid:17)(cid:3)(cid:11)(cid:51)(cid:55)(cid:36)(cid:37)(cid:12)
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`(cid:51)(cid:79)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:39)(cid:72)(cid:83)(cid:82)(cid:86)
`(cid:51)(cid:75)(cid:82)(cid:81)(cid:72)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:27)(cid:27)(cid:27)(cid:16)(cid:23)(cid:22)(cid:22)(cid:16)(cid:22)(cid:26)(cid:25)(cid:26)
`(cid:41)(cid:68)(cid:91)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:27)(cid:27)(cid:27)(cid:16)(cid:24)(cid:19)(cid:22)(cid:16)(cid:22)(cid:26)(cid:25)(cid:26)
`(cid:40)(cid:80)(cid:68)(cid:76)(cid:79)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:87)(cid:85)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:86)(cid:70)(cid:85)(cid:76)(cid:83)(cid:87)(cid:86)(cid:35)(cid:83)(cid:79)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:71)(cid:72)(cid:83)(cid:82)(cid:86)(cid:17)(cid:70)(cid:82)(cid:80)
`(cid:44)(cid:81)(cid:87)(cid:72)(cid:85)(cid:81)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:29)(cid:3)(cid:90)(cid:90)(cid:90)(cid:17)(cid:83)(cid:79)(cid:68)(cid:81)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:71)(cid:72)(cid:83)(cid:82)(cid:86)(cid:17)(cid:70)(cid:82)(cid:80)
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`(cid:58)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:79)(cid:71)(cid:90)(cid:76)(cid:71)(cid:72)(cid:3)(cid:38)(cid:82)(cid:88)(cid:85)(cid:87)(cid:3)(cid:53)(cid:72)(cid:83)(cid:82)(cid:85)(cid:87)(cid:76)(cid:81)(cid:74)(cid:3)(cid:95)(cid:3)(cid:44)(cid:81)(cid:87)(cid:72)(cid:85)(cid:83)(cid:85)(cid:72)(cid:87)(cid:68)(cid:87)(cid:76)(cid:82)(cid:81)(cid:3)(cid:95)(cid:3)(cid:55)(cid:85)(cid:76)(cid:68)(cid:79)(cid:3)(cid:54)(cid:72)(cid:85)(cid:89)(cid:76)(cid:70)(cid:72)(cid:86)
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 1 of 150
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`

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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`E.I. DU PONT DE NEMOURS AND
`
`COMPANY AND
`
`ARCHER-DANIELS-MIDLAND
`
`COMPANY,
`
` Case IPR2015-01838
`
` Petitioners, Patent 8,865,921
`
` vs.
`
`FURANIX TECHNOLOGIES B.V.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` DEPOSITION OF KEVIN J. MARTIN
`
` May 25, 2016
`
` Archer-Daniels-Midland Company
`
` 4666 Faries Parkway
`
` Decatur, Illinois
`
` 8:57 a.m.
`
` Barbara A. Glover: CSR #084-001223
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 2 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`2
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`APPEARANCES:
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`Appearing for Petitioners:
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` Blank Rome, LLP
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` Dipu A. Doshi and Jonathan W. S. England
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` 1825 Eye Street NW
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` Washington, DC 20006-5403
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` (202) 420-2604
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` ddorhi@blankrome.com
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` jwengland@blankrome.com
`
`Appearing for Patent Owner:
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` Kenyon & Kenyon, LLP
`
` Michael W. Glynn
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` One Broadway
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` New York, New York 10004-1007
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` (212) 425-7200
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` mglynn@kenyon.com
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 3 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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` I N D E X
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` EXAMINATION CONDUCTED BY: PAGE
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` By: Mr. Glynn 4
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`3
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` E X H I B I T S
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` EXHIBIT PAGE
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`No new exhibits marked.
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`PREVIOUSLY MARKED PAGE
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`Exhibit 1001 U. S. Patent No. 8,865,921 99
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`Exhibit 1002 Patent application 72
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`Exhibit 1003 Article 72
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`Exhibit 1009 Declaration 96
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`Exhibit 1021 Excerpt from McGraw-Hill 121
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` Encyclopedia of Chemistry
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 4 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`4
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` 8:57 A.M.
`
` KEVIN J. MARTIN
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`the deponent herein, called as a witness, after
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`having been first duly sworn, was examined and
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`testified as follows:
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` EXAMINATION CONDUCTED
`
` BY: MR. GLYNN
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` Q. Good morning, Dr. Martin.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. I'm Michael Glynn.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Show the appearances?
`
` MR. GLYNN: I represent the patent
`
`owner, Furanix Technologies.
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` MR. DOSHI: And Dipu Doshi and Jon
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`England for petitioner -- petitioners, I should
`
`say.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Dr. Martin, have you had your
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`deposition taken before?
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` A. I have not.
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 5 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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` Q. You have not. First time?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Okay. You understand, though, that
`
`you're under oath?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And that your testimony will be
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`used in this proceeding. The Board of Judges
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`will be able to see your testimony.
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. It's testimony under oath for the
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`proceeding. Okay. Good.
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` I'll be asking you a series of
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`questions. If you don't understand one of my
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`questions or it's unclear, please ask me to
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`clarify it. I'll do my best to rephrase the
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`question in a way that you understand.
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` If you have to take any breaks, let me
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`know. We'll try to break periodically.
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`Hopefully, we can kind of power through this and
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`get out of here early, but whenever you need a
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`break, feel free to let me know.
`
` A. All right.
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 6 of 150
`
`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
`
` Q. Okay. Describe for me your education,
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`6
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`please.
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` A. I'm sorry?
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` Q. Describe for me your education,
`
`please.
`
` A. In terms of my college education?
`
` Q. Please, yes.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Post high school.
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` A. After a year at a community college, I
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`moved to the University of North Carolina at
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`Charlotte where I obtained a bachelor's degree in
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`chemistry in 1980.
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` Upon completion of that, I was
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`accepted for graduate school, graduate studies at
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`Michigan State University in inorganic chemistry,
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`which I completed in 1986, defended my
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`dissertation.
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` For two years plus after that I was a
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`post-doctoral researcher at Texas A & M
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`University, again, in inorganic chemistry.
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` Q. What is inorganic chemistry?
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 7 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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` A. Inorganic chemistry is the study of
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`molecules and reactions of all elements as
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`opposed to organic chemistry which is focused on
`
`the compounds of carbon.
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` Q. Inorganic chemistry includes carbon?
`
` A. It can, yes.
`
` Q. Usually not?
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` A. There's another branch called
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`organometallic chemistry which covers the
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`intersection of the two.
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` The particular studies -- areas that I
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`was involved in were materials for catalysis
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`which is catalysis of organic reactions, so, in
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`that regard, they also intersect.
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` Q. Okay. And in your doctorate research
`
`you did a thesis?
`
` A. I did.
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` Q. What did that involve?
`
` A. The topic?
`
` Q. Yeah.
`
` A. The title of the dissertation is --
`
`oh, my gosh, I forgot the title of the
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 8 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`dissertation.
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` Q. That's okay. Just a general
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`description is fine.
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` A. I characterized inorganic materials,
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`hydroxide, metal hydroxide materials and then
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`used them for catalytic reactions.
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` Q. What type of catalytic reactions?
`
` A. We were looking at halide replacement
`
`reactions, organic halides.
`
` Q. And how about your post-doctorate
`
`research?
`
` A. Post-doctorate research involved
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`characterization of layered phosphate materials
`
`and phosphate-related materials.
`
` Q. Did that have an organic component to
`
`it?
`
` A. The phosphates were, yes, they had an
`
`organic -- they were organic phosphates.
`
`Phosphonates they are called.
`
` Q. And, briefly, since your post-doc I
`
`take it, then -- after your post-doc, you entered
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`into -- so you left academia?
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 9 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So describe just briefly your career
`
`in the industry.
`
` A. I first started with Texaco in their
`
`research labs in Beacon, New York, in
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`synthesizing, characterizing catalysts, running
`
`organic reactions, using them, operation
`
`reactions.
`
` After that, I worked for a company
`
`called Nepera Chemicals. It's a pyridine
`
`manufacturer. In that position my main
`
`responsibility was for oxidation of pyridine
`
`derivatives, ammoxidation, actually, which
`
`involves ammonia as well as oxygen, and then
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`since I've been at -- since I've been at ADM I've
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`been mainly focused on our glycerol to propylene
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`glycol plant which is just up the street here.
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` That was -- that was under
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`construction when I arrived, and I helped in
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`getting the catalyst made for that, getting it
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`commercialized and extensive testing in the lab
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`of the reactions.
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 10 of 150
`
`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
`
` Since then, I've also been involved in
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`10
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`a number of other projects.
`
` Q. For example?
`
` A. For example, sorbitol -- reactions of
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`sorbitol which is a sugar derivative.
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` I worked with the integrated
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`biorefinery with a Department of Energy grant
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`which involved sourcing corn stover, corn stalks,
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`turning them into chemicals, so a lot of
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`separations, hydrogenation, oxidation reactions.
`
` Q. And the education and work that you
`
`just described, did any of that involve the
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`catalytic oxidation of heterocyclic aromatic
`
`compounds?
`
` A. All of my work at Nepera on
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`ammoxidation of pyridine derivatives, since
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`pyridine is a heterocyclic organic aromatic
`
`compound, the answer is I have pretty extensive
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`experience in that.
`
` Q. And at ADM have you done work like
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`that?
`
` A. I have not directly. I have not
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 11 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`performed oxidations of materials.
`
` Q. Not directly. How about indirectly?
`
` A. I've been -- I'm aware that they were
`
`going on in the building. As a manager no one --
`
`let me be careful. No one who reported to me was
`
`doing these.
`
` Q. Okay. So what are you aware of in
`
`regards to what's going on at ADM involving the
`
`catalytic oxidation of heterocyclic aromatic
`
`compounds? Even, for example, methods for the
`
`preparation of FDCA.
`
` MR. DOSHI: What's the question?
`
` MR. GLYNN: Dr. Martin had said that
`
`he was aware of certain work being done at ADM,
`
`and I'm now asking what he's aware of about this
`
`work, and just to make it more specific,
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`specifically with regards to ADM's development of
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`methods for preparing FDCA.
`
` MR. DOSHI: The question, I think,
`
`might implicate -- we can talk without him, with
`
`him. It's up to you. We need to get a
`
`protective order. I don't believe we have a
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 12 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`protective order in this case.
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` MR. GLYNN: And you're aware that that
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`would divulge confidential information?
`
` MR. DOSHI: I'm not aware. I think it
`
`could. That's what I'm saying.
`
` MR. GLYNN: Okay. Well, we can always
`
`move for a protective order if that becomes
`
`necessary, and we, of course, would support that.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Okay.
`
` THE WITNESS: As you can read in the
`
`patent literature, we have received IP protection
`
`on oxidation of HMF, HMF derivatives to FDCA and
`
`FDCA derivatives.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Okay. So there's patents involved.
`
`So there's work being done here on developments
`
`of methods for FDCA, that you're aware of?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you know when that work
`
`started?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Do you have just a general idea? Ten
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 13 of 150
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`

`
`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`years ago? Five years ago?
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` A. I arrived here nine years ago.
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` Q. At that point had it already started?
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` A. I don't know.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. It was not a part of my
`
`responsibilities at that time.
`
` Q. At some point over the past nine years
`
`you became aware of these efforts?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. When was that?
`
` A. I don't remember.
`
` Q. Was it five years ago? Less than
`
`that?
`
` A. I don't remember.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you know why ADM is pursuing
`
`methods for manufacturing FDCA?
`
` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. Just generally.
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` MR. DOSHI: Same objection.
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` THE WITNESS: It's my understanding
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`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`that the company operates to make money, so I
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`assume that they perceive an opportunity to do so
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`14
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`with this product.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. Okay. So they believe that there's a
`
`market demand for making FDCA?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. Is that right?
`
` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: I haven't been involved
`
`in those discussions.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. Okay. Do you understand -- do you
`
`have an understanding of what parameters are
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`being used in the process that's being developed
`
`here at ADM?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: In what sense?
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. Temperature, pressure --
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` A. Are you asking me for specific
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`numbers?
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` Q. Do you know the specific numbers?
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` A. I do not.
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` Q. Do you know general ranges?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: I know what I read in
`
`the patent literature.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
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` Q. So your knowledge is just based on
`
`what's also publicly available in the patents?
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` A. That's incorrect.
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` Q. Okay. I misinterpreted that then.
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` So in addition to what's in the patent
`
`literature, you have some information about ADM's
`
`process that's not available in the patent
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`literature?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Okay. So that's what I'm asking you
`
`about.
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` So you have some general knowledge
`
`about ADM's process, that is -- that's not in the
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`patents? Do you know, for example, what
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`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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`temperature is being used?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: I don't know the
`
`specific temperature.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have a range?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Is it between 100 and 200 degrees C?
`
` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Since it's become an issue, the court
`
`reporter needs a verbal answer so that she can
`
`record it, so nods and things like that is not an
`
`easy way for her to record it, so just be sure
`
`that you know your answers are out loud as
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`opposed to nods and things like that or shaking
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`of the head.
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` So back to the question, temperature
`
`range?
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` A. I have a general idea of what the
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`temperature range is.
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`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
`Conducted on May 25, 2016
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` Q. What is that?
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` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
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` THE WITNESS: I have an idea that it's
`
`protected, as it's confidential information.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. Okay. Which it certainly may be
`
`confidential information, and as we just
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`discussed -- I discussed with counsel, if we
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`discuss what petitioners believe to be
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`confidential information during the deposition,
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`we can protect this transcript by moving for a
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`protective order, so that if that is okay with
`
`you, then I'd like you to go ahead and answer my
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`questions.
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` MR. DOSHI: Okay. So there is no
`
`protective record in this case, and I get what
`
`you're saying in terms of moving together as --
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`for a protective order.
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` Would you agree to, at least this
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`specific question, being under attorneys' eyes
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`only? In other words, you represent a
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`competitor, and you're asking him about these
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`issues.
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` MR. GLYNN: I see what you mean. That
`
`our client wouldn't have access to that
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`18
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`information?
`
` MR. DOSHI: Correct.
`
` MR. GLYNN: Yeah.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Okay. All right. And,
`
`okay, so we've got that agreement.
`
` I'm going to allow you some leeway
`
`here, but I think what you're asking for are the
`
`efforts by ADM in its FDCA preparation. Is that
`
`correct?
`
` MR. GLYNN: That is correct, yes.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Okay. Now, you've been --
`
`you've previously said that that is additional
`
`discovery. In a paper here you say -- it says
`
`patent owner's list of proposed motions. Patent
`
`owner may file a motion for discovery pursuant to
`
`37 CFR 4251 regarding petitioners' efforts to
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`develop methods for preparation of
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`2,5-Furandicarboxylic acid by methods of the
`
`invention claimed in the U. S. patent.
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`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
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` Such a motion hasn't been filed yet.
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` MR. GLYNN: Okay.
`
` MR. DOSHI: So --
`
` MR. GLYNN: I don't think that that
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`precludes me from asking questions of Dr. Martin
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`along these lines. He's put forward his opinion
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`that the claims in the patent are obvious, and
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`I'm asking him questions that go to the
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`non-obviousness of the claims in the patent.
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` I don't see where that requires
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`additional discovery, as we sit right here.
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` As far as getting documents and things
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`like that that we have not done, I'm not
`
`requesting that we go get any documents.
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` MR. DOSHI: Sure. But in his opinions
`
`he does not address the ADM process. He
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`discusses publically-disclosed processes, and
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`your questions are specific to ADM's confidential
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`processes.
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` MR. GLYNN: Well, my questions are
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`specific to secondary considerations, which it
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`does discuss.
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` MR. DOSHI: But the secondary
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`consideration relating to the invention was also
`
`something that you raised with the Board under
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`additional discovery, at least in the conference
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`call but did not raise thereafter, and I'm
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`reading from paper --
`
` What paper is this?
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` Proposed motions is what I'm reading
`
`from.
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` MR. ENGLAND: Paper 14.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Paper 14.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. All right. While it's true that we
`
`did not seek additional discovery as far as
`
`seeking documents along these lines, I'm still
`
`simply asking Dr. Martin questions relating to
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`secondary considerations.
`
` He opined on secondary considerations
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`in his report. I don't intend to spend a lot of
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`time on this, but I think our argument is taking
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`up more time...
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` MR. DOSHI: Just for the record, I
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`mean in the paper, the proposed motions, which is
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`paper No. 14, it wasn't limited to documents. In
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`fact, it says, "This discovery will be in the
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`nature of requests for admissions, requests for
`
`production of documents, which is what you are
`
`referring to, depositions, and any other
`
`appropriate means of discovery," so I understand
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`that you're not asking for documents and that
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`you're asking for deposition testimony, but I
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`believe that this was something that you raised
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`with the Board and didn't move on.
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` MR. GLYNN: I just don't see how that
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`precludes me from asking questions of the witness
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`that you put in front of me.
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` At the time there was no way for me to
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`-- well, actually, there was, but at the time --
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`you know, he's an ADM employee. He's sitting
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`right here. He's your expert, and he has
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`knowledge of what ADM, at least generally, did to
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`try to develop such a process which can go
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`directly to secondary considerations, so that's
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`the situation we're at.
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` MR. DOSHI: But you haven't provided
`
`any evidence that --
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` MR. GLYNN: I'll tell you what. I
`
`don't want to spend an hour on this right now, so
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`let's discuss it offline later, and maybe we'll
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`come back to this.
`
` In the meantime, let's move on.
`
` MR. DOSHI: Okay.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. All right. Okay. You are aware that
`
`ADM is partnering with petitioner Dupont in order
`
`to develop a process for the manufacture of FDCA.
`
`Right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What's the nature of that partnership?
`
`Do you know?
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` A. My understanding is that Dupont brings
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`oxidation expertise to the table along with
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`polymer, their polymer science, since it's
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`ultimately intended to make a polymer.
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` ADM brings a large source of
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`carbohydrates and expertise in making HMF, HMF
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`Petitioners' Exhibit 1027, Page 23 of 150
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`derivatives as a starting material.
`
` Q. Okay. So ADM brings the expertise in
`
`making the H -- ADM is bringing the expertise in
`
`making HMF from sugars from crops, things like
`
`that? If I say something a little inexact,
`
`please feel free to correct me on that. You're
`
`the expert.
`
` A. It's from a sugar.
`
` Q. From sugars. What's the source of the
`
`sugars?
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` A. Corn.
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` Q. Corn. Okay. Do you know when this
`
`partnership began?
`
` A. I don't know the exact date.
`
` Q. Generally?
`
` A. Within the past five years is my
`
`memory, but I don't know the exact date.
`
` Q. So was it about five years ago,
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`between four and five?
`
` A. I don't know.
`
` Q. Between three and four?
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` A. I don't know.
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` Q. Certainly less recent than two?
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` A. Public announcement was made last
`
`year, I believe.
`
` Q. Okay. I think I've seen the press
`
`reports, but the partnership goes back further
`
`than that?
`
` A. Correct, and, as I say, I don't
`
`know -- I don't know the exact date.
`
` Q. Okay. Let's move on.
`
` In the process of making FDCA from
`
`HMF, for example, and esters of HMF, there are a
`
`number of reaction conditions that can be varied
`
`that can -- that can ultimately affect yields.
`
`Right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. What kind of reaction
`
`conditions would be different that can affect the
`
`yield?
`
` A. Temperature, pressure, catalyst
`
`concentration, specific composition of the
`
`catalyst, HMF concentration, time of reaction.
`
` Q. Anything else?
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` A. I'm sure there are, but I have not
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`made a study of them.
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` Q. Gotcha. Those are the ones that come
`
`to mind right now?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. Fine. All right. So let's
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`start with temperature. How does temperature
`
`affect yield?
`
` A. In general, temperature affects
`
`conversion by increasing conversion. Temperature
`
`has an effect on yield through -- with a
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`catalytic system through potentially changing
`
`mechanism, changing the pathway of reactions,
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`changing the amount of ultimate product, final
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`product that you generate as opposed to
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`intermediates.
`
` Q. And it was your testimony that
`
`generally as temperature increases, yield
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`increases?
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` A. For situations in which at lower
`
`temperatures you see intermediate products.
`
` Q. Okay. So I would be incorrect in
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`saying that just generally as temperature
`
`increases, yield increases then?
`
` MR. DOSHI: Objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: It depends on the
`
`system.
`
`BY MR. GLYNN:
`
` Q. It depends on the system. Well, the
`
`system here we're talking about is the process
`
`for making FDCA from HMF and esters of HMF.
`
` A. It's a question that you can't answer
`
`without consideration of all the other parameters
`
`that we've listed, because the effect changes.
`
` Q. Okay. Let's leave the other
`
`parameters for now constant and just talk about
`
`temperature, so I'm not changing other
`
`parameters.
`
` A. I don't think I can answer that if I
`
`don't have the details of what else is there.
`
` Q. Okay. And you said that temperature
`
`affects conversion. What does that mean?
`
` A. In general, a reaction -- the extent
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`of the reaction of your starting material is a
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`Deposition of Kevin J. Martin
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`function of the temperature, and that higher
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`27
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`temperature, the more converts.
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` Q. Converts to?
`
` A. Products.
`
` Q. Products. Not just the product you
`
`want, though?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. It could convert to other products
`
`that would be considered undesirable side
`
`reactions. Correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And the rate of those reactions would
`
`increase with temperature too. Right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. The rate of degradation of your
`
`final product could increase with temperature
`
`too. Right?
`
` A. Depending on the stability of your
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`product, yes.
`
` Q. Depending on the temperature and
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`stability, yeah, at what point it's unstable,
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`but...
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` Okay. And you mentioned that the
`
`change in temperature could change the mechanism
`
`of the reaction. What did you mean by that?
`
` A. Change in temperature can affect
`
`the -- perhaps, mechanism was a misstatement.
`
`Can change the preferred pathway of the reaction.
`
` Q. Okay. And that you had mentioned as
`
`well the pathway, so...
`
` So in this context, the context of
`
`converting FDCA -- or converting HMF -- you know,
`
`let's just -- when I say HMF, you, of course,
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`understand that to be 5-hydroxymethylfurfural,
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`but we'll be mostly using the shorthand for HMF,
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`so that won't be so bad, but that's
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`5-hydroxymethylfurfural.
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` When I say that, you know that I mean
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`HMF?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. And for FDCA, when I say that,
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`you know that what I mean is
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`2,5-furandicarboxylic acid?
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` A. As I declared earlier, yes.
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` Q. I just want to make sure. And at
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`times that's also abbreviated in some of the art
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`as FDA?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. So if we use any of those terms, we
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`know they're interchangeable?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. And so to the extent it comes up, I'll
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`do a couple more.
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` When I say AMF, that would be
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`5-acetoxymethylfurfural?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Did I say that correct? And that's an
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`ester of HMF?
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` A. Acetic acid ester of HMF.
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` Q. And -- okay. If we run across any
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`other ones, we'll make sure we clarify what the
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`abbreviations are.
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` All right. So where was I?
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` Oh, pathway, so you said the
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`temperature can change the pathway. What do you
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`mean?
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` A. Well, let me give you an example from
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`my earlier career in Nepera, if I could?
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. Oxidation reaction, the cataly