Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`LAM RESEARCH CORP.,
` Petitioner,
`vs. No. IPR2015-01767
`DANIEL L. FLAMM, Patent No. 6,017,221
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF DANIEL L. FLAMM, Sc.D.
` OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, JULY 26, 2016
`
`BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR, CRR, CCRR, CLR ~
`CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
`JOB NO. 110249
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 1
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`LAM RESEARCH CORP.,
` Petitioner,
`vs. No. IPR2015-01767
`DANIEL L. FLAMM, Patent No. 6,017,221
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF DANIEL L. FLAMM, Sc.D.
` OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, JULY 26, 2016
`
`BY: ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR, CRR, CCRR, CLR ~
`CSR LICENSE NO. 9830
`JOB NO. 110249
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 1
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ---oOo---
`
`LAM RESEARCH CORP.,
` Petitioner,
`vs. No. IPR2015-01767
`DANIEL L. FLAMM, Patent No. 6,017,221
` Patent Owner.
`_________________________/
`
` Deposition of Daniel L. Flamm, Sc.D, taken on
` behalf of the Petitioner, at Weaver Austin
` Villeneuve & Sampson, LLP, 555 12th Street,
` Oakland, California 94607, Pursuant to
` Notice, and before me, ANDREA M. IGNACIO, CSR, RPR,
` CRR, CLR ~ License No. 9830.
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4 5
`
`6
`7
`8
`9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 2
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
` IRELL & MANELLA
` By: MICHAEL FLEMING, Esq.
` SAMUEL LU, Esq.
` 1800 Avenue of the Stars
` Los Angeles, California 90067
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` STADHEIM & GREAR
` By: ROBERT SPALDING, Esq.
` 400 North Michigan Avenue
` Chicago, Illinois 60611
`
` ---oOo---
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 3
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
` OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA
` TUESDAY, JULY 26, 2016
` 10:44 A.M.
`
`Page 4
`
` DANIEL L. FLAMM, Sc.D.,
` having been sworn as a witness
` by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
` testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. FLEMING:
` Q Can you please state your name and home
`address for the record.
` A Sure.
` Dan Flamm -- or Daniel, middle initial L,
`Flamm. And my address is 476 Green View Drive, Walnut
`Creek, California 94596-5459.
` Q And so, you understand you've taken an oath
`to tell the truth?
` A Yes. Always do.
` Q And you understand that this oath has the
`same force and effect as given in a court of law
`before a judge and jury?
` A I understand. I'm an attorney as well, as
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4 5 6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 4
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`you know.
` Q So, is there anything preventing you from
`making full and accurate answers today?
` A Not to my knowledge at this time.
` Q Is there any reason you cannot give your best
`testimony today?
` A I never know when you're going to do your
`best, but we will try to be responsive.
` Q So there's no medical reason or any --
` A Not known to me.
` Q If -- if you do not ask me to clarify a
`question, I will assume you understand the question;
`is that fair?
` A Well, I mean, I don't want to be picky. I
`mean, I'll do my best is the answer.
` Q Are you represented by counsel today?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you please identify him.
` A Sure.
` This is Rob Spalding and George.
` Q George --
` MR. SUMMERFIELD: Summerfield.
` THE WITNESS: Summerfield.
` MR. FLEMING: Q. This is important: Do you
`understand that you're under oath, even when we take a
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 5
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`break?
` A Sure.
` I am generally pretty careful to say things
`accurately, regardless.
` Q And you understand that, when you're under
`oath, your counsel cannot coach you, act as an
`intermediate, interpret questions, or help you answer
`the questions?
` A I'm not sure what your point is precisely.
`I -- I -- my counsel isn't coaching me, if that's what
`you're asking.
` Q And they're not going to help you answer the
`questions?
` A Not to my knowledge. I suppose if I request
`help, possibly, but...
` Q You also understand that it's inappropriate
`to have coaching between cross-examination and
`redirect?
` A (No audible response.)
` Q It's a little bit unique to IPR practice.
` A Yeah, I've never given a deposition in any
`IPR practice prior, even though I've had some exposure
`to IPRs from my professional work.
` Q You understand your counsel cannot instruct
`you not to answer a question unless it's necessary to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 6
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`preserve privilege?
` That's also kind of unique to IPR practice.
` A I guess, yeah. We can -- if some issue comes
`up, we can discuss it at the time, I suppose.
` Q You also understand that, unless your counsel
`instructs you not to answer in order to preserve
`privilege, you must answer the question?
` A Well, if there's something that's privileged,
`I probably would elect not to answer. But, you know,
`not knowing what the subject matter is, I can't
`forecast that.
` Q This is actually IPR practice.
` A Well, it depends on the subject matter,
`clearly. So, if you ask me something that doesn't
`concern the subject matter at issue, and it's a
`privileged conversation -- for example, if you ask me
`about my practice as an attorney, they're privileged.
`The information belongs to the client, not to me, and
`I would not be responsive for that reason.
` Q So you understand, though, that you would
`have to answer the question unless it's a question of
`privilege?
` A Oh, unless it's -- I didn't understand. I
`thought you said if it were privilege.
` Q No, no.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 7
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A I -- please excuse me.
` Q Okay. Did you do anything to prepare for the
`deposition?
` A Not particularly, no.
` Q Did you meet with your attorney?
` A I met with -- with -- with both George and
`Rob yesterday for a short period of time.
` Q How long was that?
` A Concerning the deposition, maybe a bit over
`an hour.
` Q Did you review the documents in preparation
`for the deposition?
` A I did a -- I reviewed some documents, kind of
`just skimmed over them. There were a lot of
`documents. And I had seen documents some time ago
`when responses and things like that were prepared.
` So, if the question is whether I read
`everything, the answer is no.
` Q So, what documents did you review?
` A Mostly, the -- I guess there were -- there
`was a response to the -- some -- some of the IPR
`motions, and I -- I skimmed some of your filings, you
`know, kind of like that, but nothing -- I didn't go
`over, for example, all of the art that you folks
`cited, even though I took a look at some.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 8
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q Did you bring any documents with you today?
` A I brought one document, which was not part of
`the package that was filed, because I thought it might
`be of interest.
` Q Can I see the document?
` A Sure.
` MR. FLEMING: For the record, the document is
`Dible, U.S. Patent No. 5,824,606. And for the record,
`there are no markings on the -- on the document. I'm
`returning it back to the witness.
` Q Have you ever been deposed before?
` A I have; not in an IPR, as I said earlier, and
`not for a long time right now.
` Q Was it in a court case?
` A I have been in court cases in other
`situations. I've been deposed quite a number of times
`in the past. I -- you know, probably -- I don't
`really remember, you know, but it's probably on the
`order of half a dozen times. Could be more; probably
`not less.
` Q Did it have to do with a patent?
` A Yeah, yeah. I -- prior to my becoming a
`patent attorney, I was a consultant in patent
`litigation, quite a lot of it, actually, both in the
`U.S. and abroad. And I wasn't what you would call a
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 9
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`professional witness. But when I was doing other
`things, occasionally I had been asked to advise
`attorneys in -- in litigation cases.
` Q Approximately how many times were you an
`expert witness?
` A I didn't say an expert witness. I said a
`consultant. As far as being a witness, probably --
`you know, I don't remember, but less than five. I
`generally -- my role was to advise attorneys and --
`and hire other witness -- hire witnesses as
`appropriate to the subject matter.
` Q The --
` A I've done inspections, discovery, things like
`that; again, not as an attorney. I've been primarily
`a prosecuting attorney and contract attorney, but not
`so much in...
` Q Of the matters in which you were an expert
`witness, were these court cases that were of public
`record?
` A The short answer is, I don't know the extent
`of the public record because in some cases the
`documents were sealed, and it was not my position to
`investigate afterward. So, you know, I couldn't give
`you a detailed answer because I don't know the
`detailed answer.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 10
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q Were these -- can you reveal who the client
`was on these cases?
` A I don't know. So, there were a series of --
`I mean, early on I worked on a case where then Hyundai
`was being sued by Micron, and it went on for a long
`time. I'm trying to -- so I think that -- I'm just
`trying to remember if I was ever in court. I'm not
`sure I was actually in court, although I may have
`given depositions in other cases.
` So, as I said, most of my -- most of my work
`was more attorney-like, even though I was not an
`attorney at the time, if that helps. So, because of
`that, also a lot of what I did is privileged because I
`was basically working under the employ of an attorney.
`And, you know, therefore, all the information belongs
`to the client and, you know, I can't differentiate.
` So, you know, they were generally in matters
`related to semiconductor, chemistry, things like that.
`I -- I've never actively sought to be employed as an
`expert witness. So generally, it was upon request.
` Q The opinion that you've given in this case,
`is your -- are they complete?
` A Complete?
` I don't know how to answer that.
` Q Were you relying on any source of information
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 11
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`for your declaration?
` A Well, certainly, there's information that's
`at issue. The information comprises the subject
`patents. It comprises art that you folks cited. It
`comprises other art. I don't have a list, if that's
`what you're asking.
` And I'm -- it happens -- this happens to be a
`field where -- where I generally worked quite a long
`time, and -- and, you know, probably it's fair to say
`I'm pretty knowledgeable. So, I don't necessarily
`need to rely on other sources.
` Q So, you didn't look beyond what was the
`documents of record?
` A I don't think so. You know, I can't -- I
`mean, I look at documents all the time, so I can't --
`I didn't -- actually, I've been time limited during
`the interval that's -- you know, we're talking about
`here. So, I've done much less than I might have liked
`to had I had more time.
` Q Did you write the declarations yourself -- or
`the declaration?
` A I -- I didn't -- I did write -- I did write
`probably the majority of the text in the declaration,
`as it turns out.
` Q So --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 12
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A I -- again, you know, this -- this was a
`collaborative -- putting together the declaration was
`done with the assistance of attorneys. So, I wrote
`things responsive to -- you know, that came out of
`discussion and, you know, reading your documents at
`the time, and it got -- clerical staff and attorneys
`put it into the proper format for a declaration.
` MR. FLEMING: Okay. I need Exhibit 2002 --
`I'm sorry -- 2001.
` MR. LU: Okay. Sorry.
` MR. FLEMING: Sorry.
` (Document marked Exhibit 2001
` for identification.)
` MR. FLEMING: For the record, I'm presenting
`Exhibit 2001. It's the --
` Q Dr. Flamm, do you recognize this document,
`Exhibit 2001?
` A It appears to be a copy of the declaration
`that I -- that I -- was submitted under my name.
` Q Is this the complete copy that I gave you?
` A Well, it appears to be. I haven't -- I
`haven't -- I don't have any reference to -- you know,
`to compare it, but it appears. I have no reason to
`think it isn't.
` Q So, this is the declaration you submitted?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 13
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A I -- I think so.
` Q For -- I should be clear on the record --
`IPR2015-01767.
` Is this --
` A That's what it says, certainly.
` Q Okay. You can feel free to refer to the
`document --
` A Okay.
` Q -- during the deposition.
` If we look at your Appendix A of
`Exhibit 2001.
` A (Witness complies.)
` Uh-huh. That appears to be a bio.
` Q I see that you went to law school?
` A I did.
` Q And is -- you're listed as you went to Golden
`Gate University School of Law --
` A Yes.
` Q -- in 2004?
` A No. It says that I graduated in 2004.
` Q Okay. And you received --
` A Oh, hang on. I'm not -- yeah, that's
`correct. Okay.
` Q You graduated -- that's showing 2004. It's
`showing that's when you graduated.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 14
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A Yeah, that would -- normally, when you put
`down a degree, which is what this says, juris
`doctorate --
` Q Right.
` A -- you would ordinarily put down the year in
`which you were granted that degree rather than the
`year in which you enrolled in school.
` So I -- I actually started at a different law
`school, which -- I didn't know much about law school.
`I'm an accidental attorney, actually. So I -- there
`was kind of a pep rally in our town, and I was walking
`down the street, and out of curiosity walked in.
` And this was the John F. Kennedy School of
`Law, which, as I later learned, is a Cal Bar school,
`not an ABA-approved school. And so I took some
`courses in the evening there. Effectively, I
`completed my first year of law school at JFK
`University.
` And by then, I understood that there was, you
`know, the drill and the accreditation, and there was
`actually a bar exam, which in California is pretty
`grueling, which I might not have walked in had I known
`about that in advance.
` And I transferred anyway to Golden Gate,
`which is a 30-minute BART ride away, and finished up
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 15
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`there after two more years, again, essentially,
`part-time. I went to school during the summer, so it
`was --
` Q So, are you a patent attorney?
` A I am.
` Q And what is your USPTO patent registration
`number?
` A 52 or 541 -- here we go -- 54100.
` MR. FLEMING: Can I have Exhibit 1001.
` (Document marked Exhibit 1001
` for identification.)
` MR. FLEMING: For the record, I'm handing
`Dr. Flamm Exhibit 1001. It's U.S. Patent
`No. 6,017,221.
` Q Do you recognize this document, Dr. Flamm?
` A It appears to be the document you cited.
` Q Is the declaration you submitted in the IPR
`for the '221 patent, IPR2015-01767?
` A I'm sorry. You're asking me a question?
` Q Yes, I did.
` I'm asking you: Was the declaration that you
`submitted concerning about this --
` A It concerns this patent.
` Q Yes.
` A Yes. Or actually, more accurately, it
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 16
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`concerns the -- it concerns comprised patent.
` Q Who is the inventor on this?
` A I am.
` Q Okay. Are you the only inventor?
` A I am the sole inventor.
` Q Are you the owner of the patent?
` A I am.
` Q Did you write the spec?
` I should say specification.
` A So -- I'm sorry? Please.
` Q I was just clarifying the record.
` I asked you: Did you write the
`specification?
` A I did not draft the specification.
` Q Did you amend the specification?
` A No.
` This is a continuation. So, it was based on
`an original specification, which is not one I drafted.
` Q Did you write the claims?
` A I did draft the claims -- wait a moment. Let
`me be careful here. I may be confused.
` I -- no, I did not draft these claims. I'm
`sorry. Please correct that. I was confusing myself
`with a different patent at issue. So this -- for this
`patent, I did not draft the claims.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 17
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Let me make sure I'm correct, but I think
`that's the case. I do not believe I drafted the
`claims here, no.
` In fact, it says on the -- on the -- well, of
`course, that's not determinative, but the patent --
`this patent was filed by Townsend & Townsend. It says
`that on the cover page.
` Q So did --
` A And the attorney who did the -- drafted and
`filed this patent was Richard Ogawa.
` Q Did you review these claims when they were
`being drafted before they were filed?
` A Yes, of course.
` Q Did you offer amendments?
` A Not that I can recollect.
` Q You just accepted what --
` A Well, the drafting was -- in the first place
`was the result of conferring with my attorney and
`deciding on what to claim. Now, this was filed way --
`this was filed in 1997. So I -- I do not, at this
`time right now, crisply remember all of the
`interactions I had with my attorney at that time, but
`I remember generally what was done.
` Q So, this is a continuation-in-part; isn't
`that correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 18
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A Let me confirm.
` Yes.
` Q So, there was an amendment to -- adding new
`material to this?
` A Not necessarily, because the -- the way --
`the way a continuation-in-part works, if you change
`language within the patent, then often you just file
`it as a continuation-in-part, even though it -- it may
`not have materially new matter.
` So some -- sometimes a continuation-in-part
`does have new matter, as you say, and sometimes it
`does not. It just depends.
` So, in order to -- right off the bat, I do
`not think this has new matter in it.
` Q But it's listed as a continuation-in-part?
` A Correct, because some parts may have been
`truncated or some language may have been corrected,
`for example, if there were typographical errors or
`things that deserve clarification. I do not recall
`right offhand.
` Q So, you filed a continuation --
` A It's easy to tell, because you can simply
`compare it with the original filing and identify
`anything which you may think is different. I don't
`think there is anything here that wasn't part of the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 19
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`original filing that's material.
` MR. FLEMING: I'd like to hand you another
`document I'd like to introduce into the record --
`well, it's already in the record -- no. I want to
`introduce this into the record as Exhibit 1018.
` (Document marked Exhibit 1018
` for identification.)
` MR. FLEMING: Oh.
` Q Do you recognize this document?
` A This is a different patent.
` Q And what -- what is this patent?
` A Multi-temperature processing.
` Q And it's Patent No. U.S. RE40,264E?
` A That's the way it's marked, yes.
` Q And are -- are you the inventor?
` A I am.
` Q Are you the sole inventor?
` A I am.
` Q Are you the owner?
` A I am.
` Q Were you the patent attorney for this?
` A Well, yes and no, because this is a reissue.
`So the original -- in this case, the original patent
`was drafted and filed again by Richard Ogawa. And I
`filed a reissue, as you can see, and I drafted claims
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 20
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 21
`on the reissue. So, this was a broadening reissue, so
`these claims were broader than the original claims.
`But the -- it's -- it's -- as with the continuation,
`it has the original specification.
` Q So you're the -- a patent attorney. And when
`you file a reissue --
` A Actually, I was not an attorney at the time
`that this was filed.
` Q You were an agent?
` A No. I was --
` Q You were a pro se?
` A Pro se. That's correct.
` And, in fact, I did not have the skills that
`I learned in law school. And subsequently, I -- I had
`some exposure to patent prosecution through my work,
`which you asked me about earlier, but I had not -- I
`really had no identifiable drafting skills. It just
`was kind of a do-as-you-go kind of thing.
` Q So, you did write these claims that are in --
` A That's what I said, yes.
` Q As well as the -- the additions into the
`spec?
` A What additions are you making reference to?
` Q I believe there are some bracketed parts of
`the spec.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 21
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A There may have just been typos. I -- I --
`I'm not prepared to speak to that without looking at
`the file history.
` The brackets that I see -- oh, there were
`some errors in the figures. These are just
`typographical corrections.
` So there -- there was no -- I don't think
`there was anything material added to the
`specification. These were just corrections.
` Q Can we turn -- turn back to Exhibit 1001.
` A I'm sorry. Which is?
` Q I'm going to refer to this as the
`'221 patent.
` A Okay. Perfect.
` Q Makes it easier --
` A That makes it easier for both of us.
` Q Yeah.
` Can we look at Figure 4.
` A (Witness complies.) Okay.
` Q And can we also look at claim 1 at the same
`time.
` A It's difficult to do at the same time.
` Q Yeah, flip back and forth, or you can use
`your copy, if you want.
` A (Witness complies.) Okay.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 22
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 23
` Q Reviewing claim 1, is the embodiment shown in
`Figure 4 encompassed in the scope of independent
`claim 1?
` A I think so.
` Q Do you agree that the element labeled 400 in
`Figure 4 is a wave adjustment circuit?
` A I'd have to check and see what the legend
`says, because it refers to an outline, and --
` Q Maybe I can help you.
` If you look at column 16, lines 4 through 6,
`I believe there, it says --
` A 16, lines 4 through 6. I don't -- I must be
`looking at the wrong pages. I don't see a 400 there.
` Oh, here we go. 400. Yeah. Okay. So, it
`evidently refers to the contents of the -- what's
`enveloped by 400.
` Q So, if we read that sentence that starts on
`line 4. Could you read that for me, the first --
` A It starts on line 4?
` Q The sentence.
` A Oh.
` "The helical resonator 126 includes a
`coil 132, an outer shield 133, a wave adjustment
`circuit 400, and other elements."
` Q Could you also look at Figure 2A.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 23
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A (Witness complies.) Yep.
` Q And, looking at claim 1 as well, is the
`embodiment shown in Figure 2A also encompassed in the
`scope of independent claim 1?
` A I think so.
` Q Could you read column 10, lines 14 through
`28.
` A Line 14 through what?
` Q 28.
` A That's a lot of text.
` Q Yeah, I want to -- if you wouldn't mind,
`please.
` A "In this embodiment, the wave adjustment
`circuits are adjusted to provide substantially zero AC
`voltage at one point on the inductive coil (refer to
`point 00 in FIG. 2A). This embodiment also provides
`substantially equal phase 70 and anti-phase 71 voltage
`distributions in directions about this point (refer to
`00-A and 00-C in FIG. 2A) and provides substantially
`equal capacitance coupling" -- which I presume is a
`typo, because it probably should say capacitive -- "to
`the plasma from physical inductor elements (00-C) and
`(00-A), carrying the phase and anti-phase potentials.
`Voltage distributions 00-A and 00-C are combined with
`C-D and A-B (shown by the phantom lines) would
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 24
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`substantially comprise a full-wave voltage
`distribution in this embodiment, where the desired
`configuration is a selected phase/antiphase portion of
`a full-wave inductor (or helical resonator)
`surrounding the plasma source discharge tube."
` Q Thank you.
` MR. FLEMING: Can we just take a break here.
`My computer is about to go out because it says I have
`no power.
` (Recess taken.)
` MR. FLEMING: Q. Before the break, you had
`read a passage from column 10, lines 14 through 28.
`And -- and I believe it's referring to Figure 2A; is
`that not correct?
` A It says Figure 2A, so --
` Q So let's look at Figure 2A.
` A (Witness complies.)
` Q And the waveform that's shown to the right of
`the figure, this is the voltage distribution of the
`points on coil 55; is that not correct?
` A Well, it is a complex waveform, some of it in
`solid and some of it in dotted line. So the -- you
`know, to be precise, we'd have to say more about it, I
`think.
` Q So, to be precise then, if we looked at
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 25
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`point A, for instance --
` A Okay.
` Q -- that's the voltage at the output of the
`lower adjustment circuit 59; is that not correct?
` A Output?
` Q The point on --
` A No. The -- the point A refers to a point on
`the coil that suspends the discharge tube.
` Q And what element are you referring to as
`discharge tube?
` A Well, there's -- there's a dash-dotted line,
`which I'm looking for the label here. It may be 52.
`I am not -- you know, the problem with these things
`is, depending on the drafter -- figure drafter, the --
`the lead lines can be a little different. But I think
`it's 52.
` And that 52 appears -- again, I haven't
`looked at this for a while, but it appears to
`illustrate a tube which, in use in a -- for its
`intended purpose, would ordinarily be evacuated and
`filled with a gas, and the elements that surround it
`would ignite and sustain an electrical discharge
`within that tube.
` Q So, to be clear then, point A then is the
`voltage on the lead line on element 52 shown on the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 26
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`lower part of --
` A No.
` I said that the point -- well, point A
`appears to be the voltage on the portion of the coil
`or the element of the inductive coil that
`circumscribes helically the discharge tube, which we
`said was 52.
` Q So then, point A does not rep- -- it
`represents a point on that coil that's shown at 55?
` A I think that's accurate, yes.
` Q And then, where is point A referring to as
`far as that point on the coil at 55?
` Is it not the lower part of that coil?
` A Yes. That's what I -- so "lower" meaning
`lower vertically, yes, I think.
` Q Okay. Yeah.
` So, to be clear on my nomenclature, what I
`was referring to is, looking at the figure, it's the
`bottom of the coil shown in the figure?
` A Yeah, it's, generally speaking, the
`bottommost portion of the coil that seems to be the --
`the wavy line isn't necessarily what -- the way you
`and I might draw a coil, but --
` Q Right, right.
` A -- that's the way the drafter --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 27
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q Right.
` A -- chose to do it.
` Q And then point C is the point on that coil 55
`that's on the upper portion?
` A Uppermost portion, I think.
` Q And then 00 is the middle point of the coil?
` A Again, generally, yes.
` Q So, looking at that waveform -- actually, I'm
`going to be clear. It's a -- it's a voltage
`distribution, not a waveform.
` A Well, no. I think -- I think both of those
`terms could be used through this situation.
` Q Okay.
` A It's a standing wave, which is a waveform.
`It's not constant in time, but it's still a waveform.
` Q So then, what's important is that point A is
`opposite in voltage than point C?
` A Well, you said "what's important." I'm --
` Q Well --
` A -- not sure where we're going with that.
` Q Yeah.
` Well, it does show, though, that it is the
`opposite --
` A Those are -- those are depicted as being
`equal and opposite, for sure.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`LAM Ex 1021-p. 28
`LAM v FLAMM
`IPR2015-01767
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 29
` Q Okay. And that also, its phase is different,
`180-degree difference?
` A Well, sure. That's what equal and opposite
`means; right?
` Definition.
` Q It's referring to both the time domain, as
`well as the frequency domain?
` A Well, the figure is not. The figure is
`illustrative of a -- of a snapshot in time. But, in
`the context of the entire discussion, it goes to the
`time domain in a certain manner as well.
` Q So, in the time domain, the way to describe
`it would be opposite polarity, opposite voltage?
` A There's an instantane
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
