MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`·
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·3· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2015-01750
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·Patent 8,484,111 B2
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`·6· · · · · Case IPR2015-01751, Case IPR2015-01752
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`·7· · · · · · · · · ·Patent 7,356,482 B2
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`·8
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
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`10· RPX CORPORATION,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`12· · · ·v.
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`13· APPLICATIONS IN INTERNET TIME, LLC,
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`15· - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
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`16· ·VOLUME I· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Pages 1-112
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`17
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`18· · · · · · DEPOSITION OF MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`19· · · · · · Wednesday, May 11, 2016, 8:49 a.m.
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`20· · · · · · · Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks, P.C.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · 600 Atlantic Avenue
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`22· · · · · · · · Boston, Massachusetts 02210
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`23· ·------ Reporter:· Kimberly A. Smith, CRR, RDR ------
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`24· · · · · · · Realtime Systems Administrator
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`25· · · · · · · · · ·DTI Court Reporting
`
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland HillsDTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland Hills
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`1-800-826-02771-800-826-0277
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`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.com
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`·
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·3· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2015-01750
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·Patent 8,484,111 B2
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`·6· · · · · Case IPR2015-01751, Case IPR2015-01752
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`·7· · · · · · · · · ·Patent 7,356,482 B2
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`·8
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`·9· - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
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`10· RPX CORPORATION,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`12· · · ·v.
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`13· APPLICATIONS IN INTERNET TIME, LLC,
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`15· - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
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`16· ·VOLUME I· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Pages 1-112
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`17
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`18· · · · · · DEPOSITION OF MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`19· · · · · · Wednesday, May 11, 2016, 8:49 a.m.
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`20· · · · · · · Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks, P.C.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · 600 Atlantic Avenue
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`22· · · · · · · · Boston, Massachusetts 02210
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`23· ·------ Reporter:· Kimberly A. Smith, CRR, RDR ------
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`24· · · · · · · Realtime Systems Administrator
`
`25· · · · · · · · · ·DTI Court Reporting
`
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland HillsDTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland Hills
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`1-800-826-02771-800-826-0277
`
`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.com
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·3
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`·4· · · ·Wolf, Greenfield & Sacks, P.C.
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`·5· · · ·By:· Richard F. Giunta, Esq.
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`·6· · · ·and Elisabeth H. Hunt, Ph.D., Esq.
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`·7· · · ·600 Atlantic Avenue
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`·8· · · ·Boston, MA· 02210-2206
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`·9· · · ·(617) 646-8000
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`10· · · ·rgiunta@wolfgreenfield.com
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`11· · · ·ehunt@wolfgreenfield.com
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`12· · · · · · · · · ·for the Petitioner;
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`13
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`14· · · ·SoCal IP Law Group LLP
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`15· · · ·By:· Jonathan Pearce, Esq.
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`16· · · ·310 North Westlake Boulevard, Suite 120
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`17· · · ·Thousand Oaks, CA· 91362
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`18· · · ·(805) 230-1350
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`19· · · ·jpearce@socalip.com
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`20· · · · · · · · · ·for the Patent Owner.
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland HillsDTI Court Reporting Solutions - Woodland Hills
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·3
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`·4· ·WITNESS:· Mark Crovella, Ph.D.
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`·5
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`·6· ·EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Page
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`·7· · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Pearce· · · · · · · 4
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · AFTERNOON SESSION
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`·9· · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Pearce· · · · · · ·81
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`10
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`11· ·EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION:
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`12· ·RPX· · · · · · ·Description· · · · · · · · · · Page
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`13· ·Exhibit 1001· · U.S. Patent 7,356,482 (01751)· ·50
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`14· ·Exhibit 1001· · U.S. Patent 8,484,111 (01750)· ·90
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`15· ·Exhibit 1002· · Witness's declaration (01751)· · 9
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`16· ·Exhibit 1002· · Witness's declaration (01750)· ·90
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`17· ·Exhibit 1003· · Witness's CV· · · · · · · · · · ·4
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`18· ·Exhibit 1004· · U.S. Patent 6,249,291· · · · · ·62
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`19· ·Exhibit 1005· · Kovacevic paper· · · · · · · · ·81
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`20· ·Exhibit 1006· · U.S. Patent 5,806,071· · · · · ·85
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`21· ·Exhibit 1010· · Krasner and Pope paper· · · · · 18
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25· ·Original exhibits retained by counsel
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.,
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`·3· · · ·having been satisfactorily identified by the
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`·4· · · ·production of his driver's license, and
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`·5· · · ·duly sworn by the court reporter, was deposed
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`·6· · · ·and testified as follows:
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · CROSS-EXAMINATION
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`·8· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
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`·9· · · ·Q.· Jonathan Pearce on behalf of the patent
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`10· ·owner.
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`11· · · · · · · ·Can you state and spell your name for
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`12· ·the record.
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`13· · · ·A.· Mark Crovella, M-a-r-k, C-r-o-v-e-l-l-a.
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`14· · · ·Q.· I'd like to show you Exhibit 1003, your CV.
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`15· ·Is it generally accurate?
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`16· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`17· · · ·Q.· Anything in addition to that that's changed
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`18· ·in the meantime or . . .
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`19· · · ·A.· Let me take a look.· I don't believe so.
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`20· · · ·Q.· It's been about a year.· That's why I'm
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`21· ·asking.
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`22· · · ·A.· There may be a couple more papers on the
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`23· ·paper list.· There may be some details here and
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`24· ·there, but nothing major.
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`25· · · ·Q.· Dr. Crovella, I'm Jonathan Pearce, an
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·attorney representing patent owner, Applications in
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`·3· ·Internet Time, LLC.· This is a deposition in which
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`·4· ·I'll ask you questions and you must answer them
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`·5· ·truthfully.
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`·6· · · · · · · ·Your attorneys may object to questions
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`·7· ·that I ask.· However, that does not excuse you from
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`·8· ·providing an answer.· You must answer all of my
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`·9· ·questions unless an attorney directly instructs you
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`10· ·not to answer.· Although no judge is present, this
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`11· ·is a formal legal proceeding just like testifying in
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`12· ·court.· You're under the same obligation to tell the
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`13· ·whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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`14· · · · · · · ·If you don't understand any of my
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`15· ·questions, feel free to say so and I will rephrase
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`16· ·them.· Before the deposition can be used in the IPR
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`17· ·in this case, you will have an opportunity to read
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`18· ·over and correct any mistakes in the transcript.
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`19· · · · · · · ·Is all that clear?
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`20· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`21· · · ·Q.· You already did this, but to ensure the
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`22· ·deposition transcript reads clearly, please don't
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`23· ·talk while someone else is talking and please do not
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`24· ·shake your head "yes" or "no" or respond with
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`25· ·answers such as "uh-uh" or "uh-huh" or "nuh-uh."
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·Please answer audibly with "yes" or "no."
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`·3· · · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
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`·4· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· Thank you.· Do not look to your attorney
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`·6· ·for assistance in your answer.· You must provide the
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`·7· ·answer, not your attorney.
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`·8· · · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
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`·9· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`10· · · ·Q.· Your attorney or RPX's attorney.· You're
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`11· ·not required to guess or speculate but you are
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`12· ·required to provide your best estimate or best
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`13· ·recollection; do you understand that?
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`14· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`15· · · ·Q.· Are you currently taking any medications,
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`16· ·under the influence of alcohol, or other drugs that
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`17· ·would affect your ability to answer truthfully and
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`18· ·accurately today?
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`19· · · ·A.· No.
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`20· · · ·Q.· Did you meet with RPX's counsel to prepare
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`21· ·for this deposition?
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`22· · · ·A.· I did.
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`23· · · ·Q.· How many times?
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`24· · · ·A.· To prepare for the deposition, we had phone
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`25· ·conversations and we met in person a couple of times.
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· When did those happen?
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`·3· · · ·A.· We met on Monday and then we met again
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`·4· ·yesterday.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· How long did those meetings take; do you
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`·6· ·recall?
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`·7· · · ·A.· If I recall correctly, the -- on Monday, we
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`·8· ·met for around 8 hours and on Tuesday we met for
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`·9· ·around two.
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`10· · · ·Q.· Was anyone else there, or just Rich and
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`11· ·Elisabeth, or Rich, or both?
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`12· · · ·A.· No.· No one else was there.
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`13· · · ·Q.· Have you ever been arrested?
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`14· · · ·A.· No.
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`15· · · ·Q.· Have you ever been convicted?
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`16· · · ·A.· No.
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`17· · · ·Q.· Have you ever testified in court?
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`18· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`19· · · ·Q.· How many times approximately if you recall?
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`20· · · ·A.· Once.
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`21· · · ·Q.· Oh, easy to recall.· What was the subject
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`22· ·matter of that case?
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`23· · · ·A.· This was a case called Akamai vs. Limelight.
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`24· ·The subject matter was content delivery in the
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`25· ·Internet.
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 8
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· I'm actually familiar with that case,
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`·3· ·so . . .
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`·4· · · · · · · ·Are you being paid for your testimony
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`·5· ·today?
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`·6· · · ·A.· I am.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· For your time, right?
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`·8· · · ·A.· Correct.· Yes.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· What is the hourly rate for that?
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`10· · · ·A.· My hourly rate is $450 an hour.
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`11· · · ·Q.· I have your CV, but can you generally walk
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`12· ·me through your educational path.· Just broadly.
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`13· · · ·A.· I received a bachelor's degree at Cornell
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`14· ·University in biology.· I then studied computer
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`15· ·science at the State University of New York at
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`16· ·Buffalo where I received a master's degree.· I then
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`17· ·went to the University of Rochester, studied for a
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`18· ·Ph.D., along the way received a master's degree,
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`19· ·another master's degree in computer science and
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`20· ·ultimately the Ph.D. in computer science.
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`21· · · ·Q.· I notice, looking through here, you seem to
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`22· ·work at the same time you were teaching.· Is that
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`23· ·pretty consistent?
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`24· · · ·A.· While I was studying for my master's degree
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`25· ·at Buffalo and while I was studying for my Ph.D. at
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·Rochester, I was also working.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· What did that work entail generally?
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`·4· · · ·A.· At the time I was working at a company
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`·5· ·called Calspan in Buffalo, which is no longer
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`·6· ·operating in that name.· They worked in the area of
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`·7· ·generally government contracting, specifically
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`·8· ·research development, test and evaluation.
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`·9· ·My specific work involved software development,
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`10· ·designing software, and building software.
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`11· · · ·Q.· I'm giving you a copy of your declaration,
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`12· ·Exhibit 1002 (01751).· This would be for the '482.
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`13· ·I realize I just handed that to you, but does it
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`14· ·look familiar to you?
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`15· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`16· · · ·Q.· You prepared this in collaboration with
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`17· ·counsel present here today?
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`18· · · ·A.· I prepared this in collaboration with
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`19· ·counsel.· And it represents my opinion.· Everything
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`20· ·in here is my opinion.
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`21· · · ·Q.· Thank you.· Turning to paragraph 9, a
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`22· ·person of ordinary skill in the art, paragraphs 9
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`23· ·through 11, let's say, you -- I guess it appears to
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`24· ·me that you define a person of skill in the art --
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`25· ·are you familiar with that term, I guess: "person of
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 10
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·ordinary skill in the art"?
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`·3· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· What does that mean?
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`·5· · · ·A.· It means a typical person who has a skill
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`·6· ·in the art of the patent at the time that the patent
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`·7· ·was -- at the time of the patent.· The person's
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`·8· ·assumed to have knowledge of the prior art related
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`·9· ·to the patent and has an ordinary level of
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`10· ·creativity.
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`11· · · ·Q.· At the end of paragraph 10, you give a
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`12· ·definition there.
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`13· · · · · · · ·Do you still think that's an appropriate
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`14· ·definition?
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`15· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection.
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`16· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
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`17· · · ·Q.· Would you like me to read it to you?· This
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`18· ·is from the last two sentences.· "In my opinion, a
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`19· ·POSA, person of ordinary skill in the art, related
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`20· ·to the '482 patent in the 1998 time frame would have
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`21· ·had at least a B.S. in computer science or the
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`22· ·equivalent, along with at least two years of
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`23· ·computer programming experience in developing
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`24· ·applications for client-server systems.· This person
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`25· ·would have been capable of understanding and
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 11
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·applying the prior art references discussed herein."
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`·3· · · · · · · ·Is that still appropriate?
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`·4· · · ·A.· That's still my opinion, yes.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· Are you a person of ordinary skill in the
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`·6· ·art?· Did you have two years' experience at that
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`·7· ·time?
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`·8· · · ·A.· No, I had more than two years' experience
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`·9· ·at the time.· But I wasn't applying my own
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`10· ·perspective in interpreting the patent.· I was
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`11· ·applying the perspective of a person of ordinary
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`12· ·skill.
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`13· · · ·Q.· Turning to paragraph 12, there's a couple
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`14· ·of -- paragraph 12 to 17, I guess, broadly speaking,
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`15· ·you discuss the MVC paradigm.
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`16· · · · · · · ·Can you give me sort of the broad
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`17· ·strokes overview of that.
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`18· · · ·A.· So the MVC paradigm is a way of building
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`19· ·applications that emphasizes the ability to reuse
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`20· ·code and categorizes functions into the categories
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`21· ·of "model," "view," and "controller," with specific
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`22· ·ideas of what should be contained in each of those
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`23· ·functional categories.
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`24· · · ·Q.· I noticed you said in here, you teach that
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`25· ·in one of your classes, I think it's iOS development
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 12
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·class?· I forget which paragraph that was.· Yes.
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`·3· ·Mobile application development, paragraph 17.
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`·4· ·So perhaps that would be a good example.
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`·5· · · · · · · ·Can you explain, for example, on an
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`·6· ·iPhone or Android device, what components of
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`·7· ·software would be both -- would be a model of the
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`·8· ·unit controller?
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`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection, scope.
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`10· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
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`11· · · ·Q.· Which would be a model?
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`12· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· So objection, scope.
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`13· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Can you repeat
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`14· ·the question.
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`15· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
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`16· · · ·Q.· Can you explain, for example, in the
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`17· ·context of iOS or Android development what would
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`18· ·comprise a model.
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`19· · · ·A.· I can't answer that question very precisely
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`20· ·because the context for interpreting model and view
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`21· ·and controller is appropriately a particular
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`22· ·application, a particular program.
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`23· · · ·Q.· Okay.· Would it help if I asked you a
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`24· ·question about a particular application?
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`25· · · ·A.· Yes.
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 13
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· Let's do a simple one.· Let's do an
`
`·3· ·Internet browser.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection, scope.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· In the context of an Internet browser
`
`·7· ·mobile software application, if you can, what would
`
`·8· ·constitute a model?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· The model would constitute the -- so let me
`
`10· ·give you --
`
`11· · · ·Q.· Sure.
`
`12· · · ·A.· -- let me fix it a little bit more specific
`
`13· ·in fact.· In the context where an Internet browser
`
`14· ·is presenting a Web page, the model would constitute
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`15· ·the data that represents the Web page, along with
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`16· ·functions that are used to manage that data.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·The controller would represent the
`
`18· ·logic -- actually, let me mention the view.
`
`19· ·The view would represent the elements of the user
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`20· ·interface, the software that creates the user
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`21· ·interface, along with data that is necessary to
`
`22· ·specify the specific user interface.
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`23· · · · · · · ·And the model would constitute logic
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`24· ·that would interact over the network with a server
`
`25· ·or with the data in the model or with the view, the
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 14
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·data in the view.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· I'm sorry.· But you said model twice in
`
`·4· ·there.· I think you perhaps --
`
`·5· · · ·A.· I meant to say controller, the last --
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· The second "model"?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· Right.· The second "model" was "controller."
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· So in that case, just to repeat, the
`
`·9· ·controller would constitute logic that would
`
`10· ·interact over the network with the server or the
`
`11· ·data in the model or with the view, the data in the
`
`12· ·view?
`
`13· · · ·A.· That's in the context of this specific
`
`14· ·application.· So I want to emphasize that in a
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`15· ·different application, the functions may be
`
`16· ·partitioned somewhat differently.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· Yes.· I'm just trying to get a general feel.
`
`18· · · ·A.· Um-hum.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· Thank you.· Does that description generally
`
`20· ·comport with your paragraph 13, for example, in your
`
`21· ·declaration, Exhibit 1002 (01751)?
`
`22· · · ·A.· Yes, I believe it does.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· By the way, I didn't mention this off the
`
`24· ·top, if you need to take a break or would like to
`
`25· ·take a break, just let me know on the record, or you
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 15
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·want me to repeat myself, just ask.
`
`·3· · · ·A.· Thank you.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· I'm happy to stop and do that.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·Turning to paragraph 15 of your
`
`·6· ·declaration, can you read that over and sort of get
`
`·7· ·a feel for what's going on there.· Actually, I'm
`
`·8· ·going to take a step back too once you've completed
`
`·9· ·that.· You can continue.
`
`10· · · ·A.· Okay.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· So once upon a time, I actually studied the
`
`12· ·MVC paradigm as well.· My understanding, at least
`
`13· ·from what you said and from 20 years ago studying
`
`14· ·it, is that the view is relatively self-explanatory;
`
`15· ·it's the thing you see.· Is that roughly true in
`
`16· ·most cases?
`
`17· · · ·A.· That's not how I describe it.· I describe
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`18· ·it as a software component.· And the software
`
`19· ·component is a portion that's reused from
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`20· ·application to application and reused in order to
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`21· ·create what you see.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· Sure.· Perhaps a more accurate definition.
`
`23· ·So the reason I asked that is in this context of
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`24· ·that first sentence on page 8, I guess there, "when
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`25· ·a user takes an input action that causes a change
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·that affects the application . . . one or more
`
`·3· ·software components detect the change and notify
`
`·4· ·model and/or view objects in the application that
`
`·5· ·depend on the changed data . . . to update
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`·6· ·themselves accordingly."
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·So what exactly is going on there?
`
`·8· ·A couple of things are acting, I guess.
`
`·9· · · ·A.· So what is acting?
`
`10· · · ·Q.· Yes.· What is taking that user input
`
`11· ·that -- user takes an input action that causes a
`
`12· ·change.· Like what's going on there?· What does that
`
`13· ·mean?
`
`14· · · ·A.· There is a number of things going on that
`
`15· ·involve a number of pieces of the application.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· Sure.
`
`17· · · ·A.· There's interaction with the user interface
`
`18· ·which involves the view.· There's the detection of
`
`19· ·the changes in the user interface, which involves
`
`20· ·what I'm referring to here as the observer portion.
`
`21· ·And there's the updating of the model, which is the
`
`22· ·result of the observer detecting the change in the
`
`23· ·view.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· What is an input action?
`
`25· · · ·A.· So I assume you're asking me about the use
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 17
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·of the phrase "input action" in this sentence that
`
`·3· ·we just read, right?
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· Correct.· The sentence that's on page 8.
`
`·5· · · ·A.· So this is -- what I meant when I wrote
`
`·6· ·this is the user is doing something to manipulate
`
`·7· ·the user interface, perhaps pressing a button or
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`·8· ·entering text into a text box.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· You just mentioned the observer layer.
`
`10· · · ·A.· That's right.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· Is that in the M, the V, or the C?
`
`12· · · ·A.· It's not necessary to put it in either the
`
`13· ·M, V, or C.· It's understood to be an important part
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`14· ·of MVC typically.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· Has that been true for as long as MVC has
`
`16· ·been a thought, an idea?
`
`17· · · ·A.· I don't know whether it's been true for as
`
`18· ·long as MVC has been taught because the MVC concept
`
`19· ·is a very old one.· However, in the context of the
`
`20· ·1998 time frame when these patent terms were being
`
`21· ·interpreted, the observer layer was understood to be
`
`22· ·part of the MVC paradigm.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· You helped to narrow my question.· I was
`
`24· ·going to do it for you.
`
`25· · · ·A.· Okay.
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 18
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· Please see Exhibit 1010 to your declaration.
`
`·3· ·This is Krasner.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· Um-hum.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· I believe you identified this in your dec?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· As paragraph 13, for example.· As "an early
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`·8· ·paper discussing the MVC paradigm."
`
`·9· · · ·A.· Um-hum.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· Does this paper discuss the observer layer?
`
`11· ·Referring again to the last paragraph of 15.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· I'm going to object to the
`
`13· ·form of the question.
`
`14· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`15· · · ·Q.· Do the words "observer layer" appear in
`
`16· ·this Exhibit 1010?
`
`17· · · ·A.· I don't find the words "observer layer" in
`
`18· ·this document.· However, the functions that are
`
`19· ·associated with the observer layer are clearly
`
`20· ·identified.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· Where are those in Exhibit 1010?
`
`22· · · ·A.· I would point to the third paragraph on
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`23· ·page 4.· The paragraph points out that change
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`24· ·notification is important and that in order to
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`25· ·manage change notification, objects will register as
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 19
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·dependents of a model and will be informed whenever
`
`·3· ·some aspect of the model is changed.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·This is a function that is typically
`
`·5· ·described as being part of an observer layer or
`
`·6· ·implemented using an observer layer.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· Looking at that paragraph, second sentence,
`
`·8· ·"When a model has changed, a message is broadcast to
`
`·9· ·notify all of its dependents about the change."
`
`10· · · · · · · ·When does a model change in the context
`
`11· ·of that paragraph?· What does that mean?
`
`12· · · ·A.· The sentence is -- this is a high level
`
`13· ·description from the introduction portion of the
`
`14· ·paper.· So it's not providing as much detail as I
`
`15· ·can provide explaining it to you.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·The change in the model that's being
`
`17· ·referred to is change in the data that's being
`
`18· ·encapsulated within the model.· So the phrase "when
`
`19· ·a model has changed" refers to changes in the data
`
`20· ·inside the model.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· How does the data inside the model change?
`
`22· · · ·A.· The controller or some other portion of the
`
`23· ·application may change the data in the model.· And
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`24· ·that can happen in a variety of ways.· I guess if we
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`25· ·go back to the Web server -- or the Web browser --
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 20
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· Sure.
`
`·3· · · ·A.· -- new data might arrive over the network
`
`·4· ·connection that would result in a change in the
`
`·5· ·model.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· Are there other ways data might change?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· Yes.· There's a variety -- there's a
`
`·8· ·variety of ways.· In fact -- the fact that there is
`
`·9· ·a variety of ways is the reason for the observer
`
`10· ·layer.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·Rather than trying to identify within
`
`12· ·the application all the possible cases, all the
`
`13· ·possible pieces of code that might change the model,
`
`14· ·instead that function is abstracted into a separate
`
`15· ·set of code called the observer layer that handles
`
`16· ·that for any situation.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· Would user input be one of those that would
`
`18· ·change the model?· Or the underlaying data, I guess.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection, form.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you restate that
`
`21· ·question for me.
`
`22· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`23· · · ·Q.· Would user input be -- Strike that.
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`24· · · · · · · ·Would user input be a situation in which
`
`25· ·a model has changed as described in paragraph 3 of
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 21
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·Exhibit 1010, page 4?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· It's possible for a sequence of actions to
`
`·4· ·change the model in which the initiating action is
`
`·5· ·user input, leading to eventually a change in the
`
`·6· ·model.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· I still feel like I'm a little unclear.
`
`·8· ·So what happens when a model has changed, like --
`
`·9· ·let's use your example of the Web browser.· What
`
`10· ·happens when a model has changed?· In this case it
`
`11· ·says it notifies all its dependents.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·What is that in the context of a Web
`
`13· ·browser?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection to form.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you restate that for
`
`16· ·me.· Thank you.
`
`17· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`18· · · ·Q.· What happens when the model changes, for
`
`19· ·example, in our Web browser?
`
`20· · · ·A.· In our Web browser -- let's say that new
`
`21· ·data arrives over the network connection.· The
`
`22· ·controller obtains that new data, the controller
`
`23· ·gets that data from the network connection.· It then
`
`24· ·goes and enters that data into the model.
`
`25· · · · · · · ·At this point, the observer layer
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 22
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·detects a change in the model and notifies all of
`
`·3· ·the software components that have previously stated
`
`·4· ·that they want to know when the model changes.· And
`
`·5· ·one of those components typically might be the view.
`
`·6· ·The view then, finding that the model has changed,
`
`·7· ·will change what's displayed on the screen.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· So if I can give you an example, I type in
`
`·9· ·www.google.com.· Is that a change in the model?
`
`10· ·Have I made a change in the model for that Web
`
`11· ·browser?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. GIUNTA:· Objection, form.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So, again, we're in the
`
`14· ·context of the example of the Web browser?
`
`15· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`16· · · ·Q.· Sure.
`
`17· · · ·A.· And you are asking me if the action of
`
`18· ·typing into the text box changes the model?
`
`19· · · ·Q.· Typing and inputting -- "enter," hitting
`
`20· ·"enter," I guess.
`
`21· · · ·A.· Well, to answer fully, I maybe need to go
`
`22· ·into a little bit of detail.· A model is a notion of
`
`23· ·the software that encapsulates all of the state of
`
`24· ·the application that -- the data being managed by
`
`25· ·the application.· I should say, the data being
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 23
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·managed by the application.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·To the extent that the data being
`
`·4· ·managed by the application includes the context --
`
`·5· ·the contents of the text box it's typed into, the
`
`·6· ·application would then update the model as a result.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·Furthermore, if we go through the
`
`·8· ·sequence of events that we've been hypothesizing,
`
`·9· ·the natural sequence of events would be that the
`
`10· ·controller, having detected that change, would
`
`11· ·initiate a Web transaction, receive new data as a
`
`12· ·result from, in this case the Google website, and
`
`13· ·that new data would also be placed into the model.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·So I can think of a couple of ways at
`
`15· ·least in which the model would change as a result of
`
`16· ·the user action.· And there may be more that I
`
`17· ·haven't thought about.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· Sure.· And the view would presumably update
`
`19· ·as well in response to one or both of those changes?
`
`20· · · ·A.· Via the process that I described earlier
`
`21· ·when the model changed, the observer layer would
`
`22· ·notify the view that the change has taken place, and
`
`23· ·the view would respond typically by changing what's
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`24· ·on the screen.
`
`25· · · ·Q.· What about -- Let's look at the fourth
`
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`MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016MARK CROVELLA, PH.D. - 05/11/2016
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`Page 24
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·MARK CROVELLA, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·paragraph on page 4 there.
`
`·3· · · ·A.· Excuse me.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·(Discussion off the record.)
`
`·5· ·BY MR. PEARCE:
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· Is that an example of the observer layer
`
`·7· ·operating?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· So you're asking me whether the interaction
`
`·9· ·described in this paragraph is an example of the
`
`10· ·observer layer in action?
`
`11· · · ·Q.· Yes.
`
`12· · · ·A.· The paragraph that we're reading is from
`
`13· ·the introduction of the paper and is presenting a
`
`14· ·high level view.· And as a result, not all of the
`
`15· ·details that we're talking about are explicitly
`
`16· ·called out.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·However, the functions that we see here,
`
`18· ·including the broadcast to dependents of changes,
`
`19· ·are functions that are associated with the observer
`
`20· ·layer.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· So that first sentence of that paragraph
`
`22· ·"The standard interaction cycle in the model-view-
`
`23· ·co
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