G. GOSLING
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`HNI Corporation and Allsteel, Inc.,
`
` Petitioners,
`-vs-
`DIRTT Environmental Solutions, Ltd.,
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
` Case No. IPR2015-01691
` Patent No. 8,024,901
` Issue Date: September 27, 2011
` Title: Integrated Reconfigurable Wall System
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF GEOFFREY GOSLING
` Chicago, Illinois
` Thursday, June 16, 2016
`
`Reported by:
`PAULA CAMPBELL, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC
`JOB 108219
`
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`ALLSTEEL EXHIBIT 1031
`Allsteel v. DIRTT Environmental; IPR2015-001691
`
`
` IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
`HNI Corporation and Allsteel, Inc.,
`
` Petitioners,
`-vs-
`DIRTT Environmental Solutions, Ltd.,
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------------------------
` Case No. IPR2015-01691
` Patent No. 8,024,901
` Issue Date: September 27, 2011
` Title: Integrated Reconfigurable Wall System
`
`-----------------------------------------------------
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF GEOFFREY GOSLING
` Chicago, Illinois
` Thursday, June 16, 2016
`
`Reported by:
`PAULA CAMPBELL, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC
`JOB 108219
`
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`ALLSTEEL EXHIBIT 1031
`Allsteel v. DIRTT Environmental; IPR2015-001691
`
`
`
` G. GOSLING
`
`Page 2
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` June 16, 2016
` 9:08 A.M.
`
` Videotaped discovery deposition of
`GEOFFREY GOSLING, held at the offices of NEAL,
`GERBER & EISENBERG LLP, 2 North LaSalle
`Street, Chicago, Illinois, pursuant to notice
`before Paula Campbell, CSR, RDR, CRR, CRC.
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` G. GOSLING
`A P P E A R A N C E S:
` FAEGRE BAKER DANIELS
` Attorneys for the Petitioner
` 2200 Wells Fargo Center
` 90 South Seventh Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` BY: TIMOTHY SULLIVAN, ESQ.
` VICTOR JONAS, ESQ.
`
` WORKMAN NYDEGGER
` Attorneys for the Patent Owner
` 1000 Eagle Gate Tower
` 60 East South Temple
` Salt Lake City, Utah 84111
` BY: CHAD NYDEGGER, ESQ.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Scot Ziarko, Videographer
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` G. GOSLING
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is the
`start of media labeled No. 1 of the video
`deposition of Geoff -- Geoff Gosling in the
`matter of HNI Corporation and Allsteel, Inc.
`versus DIRTT Environmental Solutions, Ltd.,
`Case No. IPR2015-01691.
` This deposition is being held at 2 North
`LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois, on
`June 16th, 2016. The time is now approximately
`9:08 A.M.
` My name is Scot Ziarko. I'm with TSG
`Reporting, Inc. I am the legal video
`specialist. The court reporter today is Paula
`Campbell, also with TSG Reporting.
` Will counsel please introduce yourselves,
`and the court reporter please swear in the
`witness.
` MR. SULLIVAN: Tim Sullivan from the law
`firm Faegre Baker Daniels on behalf of the
`Petitioner. And also with me is my colleague,
`Victor Jonas, of Faegre Baker Daniels on behalf
`of Petitioner.
` MR. NYDEGGER: Chad Nydegger from Workman
`Nydegger representing the Patent Owner, and
`
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
` with me today I have Dale Sawyer, a client
` representative.
` REPORTER: Would you please raise your
` right hand.
`G E O F F R E Y G O S L I N G,
` called as a witness, having been duly sworn,
` was examined and testified as follows:
` VIDEOGRAPHER: You may begin.
`EXAMINATION
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Gosling.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Could we start out by having you state and
`spell your full name for the record and also your
`current address.
` A. My name is Geoffrey William Gosling,
`G-e-o-f-f-r-e-y W-i-l-l-i-a-m G-o-s-l-i-n-g. I live
`at 32 Collingwood Place, C-o-l-l-i-n-g-w-o-o-d
`Place, Northwest, Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2L 0P9.
` Q. Thank you.
` Mr. Gosling, have you ever been deposed
`before?
` A. I have not.
` Q. Okay. So just a few basics to go over with
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`you. So I think the first thing is we'll plan to
`take a break every hour or so is kind of how I
`operate.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Any time that you want to break this
`morning or throughout the day, we don't have to --
`it can be earlier than an hour, you know, just
`whenever you feel like you need a break for any
`reason. I just ask that if we do have a question
`pending, that we finish off that question. But
`we'll plan to break for lunch, you know, if we need
`a lunch. We may not need it today.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Kind of see how things are going. But
`probably after the second session we'll -- we'll
`think about breaking for lunch.
` The one thing that I think people who
`haven't been deposed before can overlook sometimes
`is that in normal kind of human conversation we do a
`lot of nonverbal yeses and nos and uh-huh or yep and
`things like that. It's just really helpful if you
`can respond to my questions with verbal, you know,
`yeses and nos and try to say void the nonverbals, or
`at least to accompany them --
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
` A. Fair -- yeah, fair enough.
` Q. -- with verbals.
` And just, you know, again, so that we are
`not talking over each other, I will do my best to
`not talk over when you are giving an answer, and if
`you can just wait until I finish a question, because
`it gets to be a little bit, you know, different than
`what -- how we interact, just as normal people on
`the street interacting.
` A. Right.
` Q. I just want to make sure the court reporter
`has a clear record.
` And do you have any questions just about
`the process before we kind of dive in?
` A. I mean, no shortage of them, but, you know,
`we don't have that much beer. No, I'm -- I think
`I'm -- I think I'm okay.
` Q. Okay. So you understand that you're here
`today in connection with a matter that's pending
`before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, Patent
`Trial and Appeal Board, specifically IPR number
`2015-01691 and this relates to proceedings
`concerning DIRTT's patent, which I'll call the '901
`patent.
`
`
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`Page 8
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` G. GOSLING
` Do you understand that?
` A. Yeah, as far as the number that you just
`recited, I'm going to have to trust you that's the
`right number. I haven't memorized them; so...
` Q. Sure.
` But it relates to a patent that you are --
` A. Right.
` Q. -- one of the inventors on?
` A. Right.
` Q. And it's a patent that's owned by your
`company, DIRTT; correct?
` A. Right. Yes.
` Q. So I'd like to start just by talking about
`your background a little bit.
` Can you -- can you just talk to me a little
`bit about -- I guess let's just start with your
`college education experience.
` A. So, um, my dad would say it's a long and
`sordid tale. I began at the University of Calgary
`in a -- in a Bachelor's of Science program. Didn't
`finish, realized that that was not my calling. I
`ended up going to the Alberta College of Art, where
`I graduated with honors in sculpture.
` And shortly thereafter I -- I realized
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`that -- that eating was a good thing, so I decided
`that I needed to augment that education with
`something more -- more founded in, you know,
`commercial application. So I then went on to do my
`Master's Degree in environmental design with a
`specialization in industrial design.
` Q. What year did you complete your Bachelor's
`Degree in sculpture?
` A. Hmm, that is a good question. I want to
`say that it was around 1987/'88, but I could be
`completely wrong. That was -- that was a bit of a
`rush through everything. So, anyway, it's
`somewhere -- it's somewhere in there.
` Q. You think it was before 1990?
` A. Yes. It was before 1990.
` Q. Somewhere in the '87 to 1990 range?
` A. Yeah. I think it was -- I think it was
`'87, but it might have been '86 even.
` Q. And, then, how about your Master's in
`environmental -- did you say environmental science?
` A. Environmental design.
` Q. Environmental design.
` When did -- when did you complete that
`degree?
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
` A. Formally I believe my convocation was in
`'91. But, again, it might have been '90. It's
`amazing how those details seem unimportant.
` Q. Okay. So, then, let's talk about your next
`steps after you finished your Master's in the 1991
`time frame.
` What was your first job after you completed
`your Master's?
` A. I -- do you want to know the employer's
`name and all that or --
` Q. As best you can recall.
` A. Oh, yeah, I can recall. I just didn't know
`if it was important.
` Tresco Industries in Calgary, Alberta.
`They were, or are I should say, manufacturers of
`command and control room solutions. So I joined
`them actually while I was finishing my thesis for my
`Master's. So I actually joined them just before I
`defended my thesis.
` Q. Okay. How many years were you at Tresco?
` A. I want to say -- I want to say about a year
`and a half, or so, something like that.
` Q. So you would have left Tresco sometime in
`the 1993 time frame, 1994?
`
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` G. GOSLING
` A. Yeah, I guess.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I guess. I can't say for certain, but that
`feels about right.
` Q. Can you tell me a little bit more about the
`products or the business? I think you said command
`and control, but what was the -- what was the
`business? What was the product for Tresco
`Industries?
` A. The product was a control room console
`which is what I would see in, say, a 9-1-1 facility
`or what you would see in, say, oil and gas or
`electrical utility, you know, surveillance of the --
`of the grid, right. So if you ever see, you know,
`pictures of those environments, those control rooms,
`the desking system that those operators are sitting
`at, that's what I designed.
` Q. Okay. So not the control room, I guess,
`electronics themselves, but the furniture --
` A. No.
` Q. -- basically that the --
` A. The furniture, yeah.
` Q. Okay.
` A. So it was, you know, integration of at that
`
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` G. GOSLING
`time cathode ray tube, CRTs, displays, whatever --
`whatever technologies that might be, you know, part
`of that. But, candidly, not the most sophisticated
`solution, but that was the application.
` Q. Okay. So that takes us up to, you know,
`roughly the 1993 time frame.
` What was your next job after Tresco
`Industries?
` A. I went to Evans Consoles, who are, again, a
`command and control room company. They -- they do
`the same thing. They actually approached me. They
`saw my work at Tresco and saw the value in my work,
`I suppose. And, so, I departed Tresco and moved
`to -- to Evans.
` Q. Okay. How long were you at Evans?
` A. Well, let's see here. Well, I left Evans
`to start DIRTT, so whatever that math says. Is that
`12 years/11 years?
` So when we -- when we started DIRTT, I left
`Evans to -- to start DIRTT. So I was in there
`for -- I was in that industry for quite a while.
` Q. Documents I've looked at I -- my
`recollection is that DIRTT was founded in 2014; is
`that right?
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
` A. 2004.
` Q. I'm sorry. 2004; right?
` A. Yeah. Yeah.
` Q. I didn't mean to add a decade.
` A. Carrying the two, yeah. That sounds about
`right, yeah.
` Q. 2004, okay.
` A. Yeah.
` Q. So you were -- okay. I got it.
` So you were at Evans control from maybe
`1993 --
` A. Evans Consoles.
` Q. Or Evans Consoles from 1993 to about 2003
`or 2004 when --
` A. Yeah, that sounds -- sounds about right.
`It might have been six months here or there, but...
` Q. Over the course of the, you know, ten plus
`years that you were at Evans Consoles, did you work
`on any other products besides command and control
`room consoles?
` A. We did kiosks, which was an interesting
`event. So -- so public access terminals they are
`called, what you would know as a kiosk, where they
`would be a free-standing object.
`
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` G. GOSLING
` You know, an example of that would be, you
`know, you go to, I don't know, take the train and
`you go up and you buy your ticket through a
`free-standing object. So -- so, yeah, I was
`involved in the design of those, which are really
`just versions of consoles. They were just single
`units, but it was still around that -- that same
`notion around technology integration, sort of finite
`objects, but outside of that, it was all consoles.
` Q. The consoles that you worked on at both
`Evans and Tresco, were those designed to be
`permanent structures in the facilities where they
`were installed?
` A. Absolutely, yeah.
` Q. And the kiosks that you worked on, were
`those designed to be permanent structures in the
`sense that you couldn't take apart the kiosk and put
`it somewhere else?
` A. They were -- they were bolted to the
`building. They were -- they were installed, right.
`There was obviously security issues, all that,
`because they are out in -- in the public space. So,
`yeah, they were not meant to be mobile.
` Q. So in the time before you founded DIRTT
`
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` G. GOSLING
`with others, your prior work experience didn't
`involve designing movable structures?
` A. No.
` Q. So it follows from that that your time
`before you founded DIRTT didn't involved experience
`in designing movable walls?
` A. No, none.
` Q. When did you first meet Mogens Smed?
` A. When he walked through the door to become
`the CEO of Evans.
` Q. To become the CEO of Evans, okay.
` What year was that, approximately?
` A. Well, I'm going to say that would have been
`2003.
` Q. Okay.
` A. But I -- you know, it could have been 2002.
`I don't -- I don't know for certain how long he was
`at Evans.
` Q. Prior to meeting Mr. Smed, did you have any
`professional experience working with movable walls?
` A. No.
` Q. And when you met Mr. Smed in roughly 2003,
`maybe give or take a year, Mr. Smed, to your
`knowledge, had experience working in movable walls;
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. As best you can recall, what was Mr. Smed
`doing before he became the CEO of Evans Consoles --
`Consoles?
` A. He was retired.
` Q. How long had he been retired?
` A. That I don't know. I don't know that -- I
`don't think it was very long, but I don't know how
`long it was.
` Q. What had been his previous role before he
`retired?
` A. He was with Haworth. I actually don't know
`what his role was.
` Q. So after meeting Mr. Smed in the 2003 time
`frame I take it that somehow the two of you, and
`potentially others, had an idea for a new company;
`fair?
` A. Not quite. We -- we had an affinity for
`each other.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Right. Like we -- we shared a like view.
`We just knew we wanted to do something together.
` Q. Okay. Okay. Can you tell me the
`
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` G. GOSLING
`circumstances where -- well, when did you and
`Mr. Smed first decide that you wanted to design a
`movable wall system?
` A. I -- I actually don't know that there was a
`time. It was -- it was pretty -- pretty organic in
`terms of the kinds of things that we were talking
`about. I know that he liked how I talked about
`solving problems, and I liked how he was interested
`in notions of sustainability, and that, you know, I
`just recall that we were talking about all manner of
`things. When we decided it was going to end up
`being a wall, I actually -- I couldn't put my finger
`on it.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Sorry for the longwinded answer there.
` Q. No, no problem.
` I guess, did you -- did you settle on, you
`know, the design of a movable wall system as the
`product that DIRTT was going to be selling before or
`after you left Evans Consoles?
` A. Um, I think it was part of it. You know,
`there was also notions around doing a furniture
`system that behaved alike with the walls, right. So
`it was a component of an environmental design, but
`
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` G. GOSLING
`it was certainly on the list.
` Q. Do you recall when you first approached a
`customer or a potential customer and, you know, told
`them about your DIRTT wall system and tried to earn
`their business?
` MR. NYDEGGER: Objection.
` I let you go on for a while here, Tim, but
` the scope of the deposition is the declaration
` that's been submitted in the IPR. And, so, I'm
` not going to allow you to go into things, like
` to establish invalidity defenses that you want
` to assert possibly in the concurrent
` litigation, and, so, you know, starting to ask
` about things like, you know, first sale and
` that sort of things, it's completely outside
` the scope of the declaration.
` And if you want to go there, we need to
` have a call with the Board, because we are
` going to move to limit the deposition to the
` declaration that's been submitted, because
` that's what's at issue in the IPR for the
` reason we're here today.
` MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, Chad. So,
` Mr. Nydegger, that's clearly a speaking
`
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`objection, but I'll respond to your objection.
` My understanding is that Mr. Gosling is a
`witness on secondary considerations of
`obviousness, and he has provided testimony in
`his declaration that relate to, among other
`things, long-felt need and failure by others.
`It's important for me to understand
`Mr. Gosling's knowledge and what was going on
`in the industry at the time when he joined the
`industry. Directly relevant to long-felt need,
`failure by others and other secondary
`conditions of obviousness, which is clearly,
`squarely at issue in this proceeding.
` If you feel like you need to limit the
`deposition, call the Board, if we need to -- to
`stop, we are going to seek fees, and we are
`going to seek costs if we have to interrupt
`this deposition, and I'd ask you to not
`interrupt me with speaking objections any more.
`Every question I've asked is clearly relevant
`to secondary considerations of nonobviousness.
` MR. NYDEGGER: If you want to ask about the
`state of the industry at the time, that's fine,
`but I'm not going to allow you to go into
`
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`issues that could be used in the -- as defenses
`in the litigation, because that's -- that's
`clearly outside the scope.
` MR. SULLIVAN: You have a perception of the
`legal impact of the questions I'm asking. I
`get that. But the questions I'm asking relate
`to what was happening in the industry. And
`obviously when the DIRTT wall was starting to
`be sold to customers is part of what was
`happening in the -- in the industry, and that
`is exactly what Mr. Gosling spoke to in his
`declaration.
` So the fact that this could be relevant to
`some other legal issue in your imagination does
`not preclude me from asking the question
`because it is relevant to exactly what the
`Board needs to consider on secondary
`considerations here.
` So I just -- I'm going to proceed with the
`deposition now.
` MR. NYDEGGER: Okay. Well, if it -- if it
`gets too far, then we will stop and we will
`make a call.
` MR. SULLIVAN: I understand.
`
`
`
`Page 21
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` G. GOSLING
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
` Q. When did you first approach customers about
`selling them the DIRTT wall, to the best of your
`recollection?
` A. When did I first approach?
` Q. Sure.
` A. I -- I'm the designer of the product, so I
`was not approaching customers.
` Q. Okay. Who is the -- okay. So as -- as the
`designer of the DIRTT wall product and not the
`salesperson for the DIRTT wall product, would you
`have had an awareness of other movable wall systems
`in the market as of 2004?
` A. Actually, no. One of the things that I put
`a lot of effort into was to protect our lack of
`knowledge. We had a rare opportunity in that we did
`not come from the industry, and we did not want to
`mimic. We -- we saw an opportunity to look at the
`world objectively and through a solutions-based
`process as opposed to a market-based process. So --
`so we put every effort into not looking at what
`other manufacturers did.
` Q. Okay. So you don't know whether in 2004
`there were other movable wall systems on the market
`
`
`
`Page 22
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` G. GOSLING
`that included a zipper connection method as well as
`horizontal stringers with attached aesthetics?
` A. No. I don't.
` Q. You don't know, for example, whether the KI
`Genius wall that existed in 2004 had a zipper
`connector method as well as horizontal stringers
`with aesthetics attached?
` MR. NYDEGGER: Objection.
` A. I don't.
` Q. You don't know whether the wall that
`Mr. Smed was selling as the LifeSPACE wall in part
`of his prior work history, you don't know whether
`the Smed wall had a zipper connection method as well
`as horizontal stringers with aesthetics attached?
` MR. NYDEGGER: Objection.
` A. I know that they had connectors between
`their walls. That's as far as I knew.
` Q. Okay. Was it a zipper type connection
`method?
` A. I actually don't know specifically. The
`zipper itself is a very unique object. So if you're
`trying to generalize about a vertical connector,
`then I would say the answer is no.
` Q. Would you say a zipper is a particular -- a
`
`
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`Page 23
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`
` G. GOSLING
`very specific type of object. Do you have in mind
`the specific zipper that is included in the DIRTT
`walls?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So I'm thinking of a zipper a little bit
`more generally. Maybe we could agree on a
`definition of sort of a flexible plastic -- long
`plastic component that attaches adjacent wall
`modules together?
` A. Yeah, but that's -- that's -- that's -- we
`might as well just say a PVC thing, because that is
`not a complete -- in any way complete definition of
`what we invented.
` Q. Sure.
` And I understand that you have a particular
`zipper that you use, and you have -- that's what you
`have in mind when I'm asking you questions about a
`zipper. But the definition I gave where we just
`have a long, you know, flexible some type of polymer
`strip that connects adjacent wall modules in a way
`such that, you know, the strip can be removed and
`the walls can be reconfigured, there are other
`solutions out there besides DIRTT that have a zipper
`under that definition; right?
`
`
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`Page 24
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` G. GOSLING
` A. So I will not agree to call that a zipper.
`I will agree to call that a vertical connector, but
`it is not a zipper.
` Q. Okay. So there are other companies that
`have a vertical connector that allow for
`reconfiguration of adjacent wall modules other than
`DIRTT; correct?
` A. I -- I don't know.
` Q. You've --
` A. I just said that I don't know other
`products.
` Q. Okay. Do you know whether any products
`existing on the market currently include a vertical
`connector, given the definition we've been
`discussing?
` A. Again, I -- I have protected my knowledge.
`I don't -- I don't know. I don't look at what other
`manufacturers do at all.
` Q. Okay. Have you looked at what Allsteel has
`done, for example?
` A. Deliberately, no.
` Q. Do you know whether Haworth prior to 2004
`sold any products that included a vertical connector
`for adjoining adjacent wall modules?
`
`
`
`Page 25
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` G. GOSLING
` A. Um, if it's -- if you're -- are you talking
`about the Smed product?
` Q. Haworth may have more products other than
`the Smed product, but --
` A. Then I -- no. I don't. If anything, I
`understand how the Smed product worked, but I don't
`know anything beyond that.
` Q. The Smed product included a vertical
`connector for adjoining adjacent wall modules to the
`best of your knowledge?
` A. Yeah, but it was just a -- it was just a
`clamp kind of thing, not the same thing.
` Q. How about Steelcase, does that prior to --
` A. Again, you can pick any manufacturer, and
`I'll say I don't know, because I honestly, sincerely
`don't know.
` Q. So I'm just going to -- I just -- I need to
`ask.
` A. Okay. Okay.
` Q. I need to go through the list.
` A. New to me.
` Q. And I'm sorry that it's --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. It will be repetitive, but I'm going
`
`
`
`Page 26
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`
` G. GOSLING
`through the list.
` A. All right. Here we go.
` Q. So did -- to your knowledge, prior to 2004
`did Steelcase sell any products that included a
`vertical connector for -- for joining adjacent wall
`modules?
` A. Did I know? Sorry. No. I didn't. No,
`don't know.
` Q. Do you know whether prior to August 2004
`whether KI sold products that included a vertical
`connector for adjoining adjacent wall modules?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Do you know whether prior to 2004 Transwall
`sold any products that included a vertical connector
`for adjoining adjacent wall modules?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. Do you know whether prior to August 2004
`Inscape sold any products that included a vertical
`connector for adjoining adjacent wall modules?
` A. I don't know.
` Q. And do you know whether prior to 2004
`Infinium sold any products that included a vertical
`connector for adjoining adjacent wall modules?
` A. I don't know.
`
`
`
`Page 27
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` G. GOSLING
` Q. And I've just listed -- I'll just ask this
`one as a summary question for you, or put them all
`together, and we'll see if that works, but I've --
`we've gone through Haworth, Steelcase, KI,
`Transwall, Inscape and Infinium, and my questions
`before were limited to prior to 2004. So just to
`treat those all as a group, since 2004 do you know
`whether any of these companies, you know, beginning
`since August 2004, have sold products that include a
`vertical connector for connecting adjacent wall
`modules?
` A. I -- I don't know.
` Q. Have you ever seen the Smed wall product?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. When was the first time you recall seeing
`the Smed wall product?
` A. Um, it would have been around the time that
`we started DIRTT.
` Q. Did you use the Smed wall product as a
`starting point for designing the --
` A. No.
` Q. Let me just --
` A. Absolutely not.
` Q. I'll just -- let me just --
`
`
`
`Page 28
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` G. GOSLING
` A. Sorry.
` Q. And I -- just so we have a clear record, so
`I think based on your indication there, you did not
`use the Smed wall as a starting point for designing
`the DIRTT movable wall system; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And the Smed wall also goes by the name of
`the LifeSPACE wall; is that your understanding?
` A. I think so. I don't know -- yeah. I think
`so.
` MR. SULLIVAN: We will mark this as
` Exhibit 1028.
` (Exhibit 1028 marked for identification.)
` Q. Mr. Gosling, there are vertical connectors,
`as we have been de -- as we have defined them, for
`adjoining adjacent wall modules such that the wall
`modules can be reconfigured that don't fall under
`the claims of the '901 patent; correct?
` MR. NYDEGGER: Objection. Foundation.
` A. Sorry. I'm not sure I understand the
`question.
` Q. Is it possible to have a vertical connector
`in a movable wall system that does not use the
`technology of the '901 patent?
`
`
`
`Page 29
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` G. GOSLING
` MR. NYDEGGER: Objection.
` A. I mean, of course.
` Q. The Smed wall is one example of a vert --
`of a system that had a vertical connector that
`didn't use the technology of the '901 patent; right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. I've handed you --
` A. So I want to -- sorry. I just want a
`clarification on what you mean by the word
`"technology," because that could mean the material.
`What do you mean by the word "technology"?
` Q. So I mean the technology that is covered by
`the claims of the '901 patent.
` A. Okay. So in terms of the interface, the --
`the fin registration, all of that.
` Q. Sure.
` A. Right. So, then, okay, I stick with that.
` Q. Maybe let's -- let's get a little clarity.
` I know I've just handed you Exhibit 1028.
`I'm going to hand a different exhibit, and we will
`maybe come back to that one.
` THE WITNESS: There is gnats everywhere in
` this space.
` MR. SULLIVAN: So I'm going to hand the
`
`
`
`Page 30
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` G. GOSLING
` witness what's previously been marked as
` Exhibit 2004-1.
` (Whereupon a discussion was had off the
` record.)
` (Exhibit 2004-1 marked for identification.)
`BY MR. SULLIVAN:
` Q. Mr. Gosling, I've handed you DIRTT
`Exhibit 2004-1. Is this a copy of the declaration
`that you submitted in connection with the IPR
`proceedings that you're here to provide testimony
`about today?
` A. I'm assuming it's the same as the one that
`has been given to me by counsel, then yes.
` Q. Okay. So in this declaration, under
`paragraph 2, you put in there the language from
`claim 1 of the '901 patent; right?
` A. Right.
` Q. And if I point you to within claim 1 there,
`there is the letter B?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And under the letter B there it starts
`to -- it starts with the language, "A removable
`connection strip having a pair of spaced apart
`flexible arms, each arm having a beaded portion
`
`
`
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` G. GOSLING
`thereon, the beaded portion of one of said arms
`being adapted to connect releasably to the beaded
`portion of one of said first vertically extending
`flange or said second vertically extending flange on
`said vertical end frame and the beaded portion of
`the other said arms being adapted to connect
`releasably to the beaded portion of a corresponding
`opposed vertically extending flange on a separate
`vertical end frame of a second wall module."
` Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that's the part of claim 1 of the '901
`patent that describes the specific requirements of
`the connecting strip that's used in the DIRTT
`system; right?
` A. Yeah. There is -- there is a third element
`within it, though, which is a fin in between those
`two.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Which is the fundamental difference.
` Q. So the fundamental difference between -- so
`the fundamental difference between what?
` A. What you've been asking me about, about the
`vertical connectors on the LifeSPACE.
`
`
`
`Page 32
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` G. GOSLING
` Q. So just so I know what you're comparing,
`are you saying the fundamental difference between
`the vertical connector in the Smed wall and -- so,
`sorry. The LifeSPACE wall had a vertical connector
`that did not include a fin and --
` A. It was, yeah, it was -- I mean, it was
`different beyond that, right, but you are just
`stopping halfway through this.
` Q. Sure.
` And you can -- you can take a look through,
`if you'd like, but I -- you k
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