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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ERICSSON, INC. and TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET )
` LM ERICSSON, )
` ) Case No.
` ) IPR2015-01664
` Petitioners, )
` vs. )
` )
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II, LLC, )
` Patent Owner. )
` )
` _______________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.
` San Diego, California
` Wednesday, June 15, 2016
`
` Job No. 108059
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`ERIC-1018
`Ericsson v. IV, IPR2015-01664
`Page 1 of 118
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`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ERICSSON, INC. and TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET )
` LM ERICSSON, )
` ) Case No.
` ) IPR2015-01664
` Petitioners, )
` vs. )
` )
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II, LLC, )
` Patent Owner. )
` )
` _______________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.
` San Diego, California
` Wednesday, June 15, 2016
`
` Job No. 108059
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`ERIC-1018
`Ericsson v. IV, IPR2015-01664
`Page 1 of 118
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`Page 2
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` Wednesday, June 15, 2016
` 9:18 a.m.
`
` DEPOSITION OF KENNETH ZEGER, PhD,
`taken at 501 West Broadway, 6th Floor, San Diego,
`California, commencing at 9:18 a.m. and concluding at
`2:07 p.m., Wednesday, June 15, 2016, before
`Tricia Rosate, RDR, RMR, CRR, CCRR, CSR 10891, a
`Certified Shorthand Reporter.
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`ERIC-1018
`Page 2 of 118
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`For the Petitioners:
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Dallas, Texas 75219
` BY: JOHN EMERSON, ESQ.
`
` -and-
`
` HAYNES AND BOONE
` 2505 N. Plano Road
` Richardson, Texas 75082
` BY: J. ANDREW LOWES, ESQ.
`
`For the Patent Owner:
` McANDREWS HELD & MALLOY
` 500 West Madison Street
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
` BY: SHARON HWANG, ESQ.
` RAJ CHIPLUNKAR, ESQ.
`
`Also Present:
` TIM R. SEELEY, ESQ. Intellectual Ventures
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`ERIC-1018
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` I N D E X
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`WITNESS: Kenneth Zeger, PhD
`EXAMINATION PAGE
`By Mr. Emerson ............................. 5, 86
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` E X H I B I T S
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`ERIC-1018
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` SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 2016
` 9:18 A.M. - 2:07 P.M.
` - - - -
` KENNETH ZEGER, Ph.D.,
` having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q I know you know the drill.
` Any reason that you can't testify truthfully
`and accurately this morning?
` A No.
` Q No medicines, anything like that?
` A No.
` Q No? You're feeling well?
` A Feeling great.
` Q All right. Awesome.
` Would you turn to your declaration, which is
`Exhibit 2001.
` A Okay.
` Q And I'm going to direct your attention first to
`paragraph 26.
` A Okay.
` Q And if you could take a --
` First of all, if you take a moment and read
`that paragraph, familiarize yourself with it.
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` A Okay.
` Q Now, the second-to-the-last sentence, you state
`that "Dr. Haas appears to be limiting a person of
`ordinary skill in the art of the '431 patent to a
`designer or inventor."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And then the next sentence reads "My
`understanding is that a person of ordinary skill in the
`art should be able to practice the invention based on
`the disclosure, but need not necessarily be able to
`independently design or invent the claimed invention."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, first of all, when you say that "a person
`of ordinary skill in the art should be able to practice
`the invention," what do you mean by "practice the
`invention"?
` A Make and use.
` Q Make and use?
` So a person of ordinary skill in the art with
`the '431 patent in front of him should be able to make
`the inventions disclosed and claimed in the '431 patent;
`correct?
` A Correct.
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` Q Okay. And why is it that you think that
`Dr. Haas's person of ordinary skill in the art would
`necessarily have to be able to independently design or
`invent the claimed invention?
` A Well, I'm not saying in paragraph 26 that
`such a -- Dr. Haas's person of ordinary skill would have
`to be able to design the '431 patent. What I'm saying
`is that his definition of a person of ordinary skill in
`the art for the '4- -- of the '431 patent would have to
`have extra skills beyond what I think a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would have, and that would be
`representative or typical of a person that is generally
`an inventor. I'm not saying they could necessarily
`invent this particular patent. They might be able to.
` Q And why do you think that Dr. Haas's person of
`ordinary skill in the art would necessarily have to have
`these additional capabilities?
` A I don't know why he chose those extra
`capabilities, but I read them in his definition.
` MR. EMERSON: Can we get a copy of the Haas
`declaration, please?
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: Sure.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q And I don't think you have that in your
`notebook. Do you? Haas's declaration.
`
`ERIC-1018
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` A No.
` Q While we're waiting, why don't you take a look
`at paragraph 27, please.
` A Okay.
` Q And just if you could read that to yourself.
` A Okay.
` Q Now, as far as the education and work
`experience of a person of ordinary skill in the art, you
`agree with Dr. Haas's definition; correct?
` A Well, I agree with part of what he said. I'm
`not sure exactly what you just referred to.
` Q Do you agree that a person of ordinary skill in
`the art would have a bachelor's degree in electrical
`engineering, computer engineering, computer science, or
`equivalent training as you -- as you recollect or
`recount in paragraph 27 of your declaration?
` A Let me just take a look for a second.
` So I think my paragraph 24 explains what I do
`agree with. Maybe it's easier to use that one.
` Q Okay. That was -- that was my question,
`really.
` So you agree with Dr. Haas's definition of the
`person of ordinary skill in the art to the extent it
`includes a B.S. degree, an electrical engineering,
`computer engineering, computer science, or equivalent
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`ERIC-1018
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`Page 9
`training, as well as three to five years of experience
`in the field of digital communication systems; correct?
` A That's correct, and there's a little bit more
`after that. Right.
` Q Such as wireless communications systems and
`networks?
` A That's correct. Right.
` Q Is it fair to say that you believe that
`Dr. Haas is assuming that this person with this
`education and this experience knows more than that
`person would actually know?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: I think, roughly speaking, yes.
`I mean, basically he's assuming such a hypothetical
`person would have knowledge and capabilities and
`creativity beyond with which -- sorry -- beyond which I
`would say such a person would have.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q And what do you base that conclusion on?
` A Well, in my paragraph 26, I think I lay that
`out. So I'm quoting him here.
` He says, "such a [sic] person 'would know how
`to apply these different techniques to different
`communication systems and networks.'"
` He talks about advantages and disadvantages,
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`ERIC-1018
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`and he talks about choosing between different
`methodologies, protocols, and techniques to balance
`various goals, things like that.
` Q So you think those are capabilities that go
`beyond a person of ordinary skill in the art having the
`education and experience that you and Dr. Haas agree
`that a POSITA would have?
` A That's correct.
` Q Now, do you disagree -- well, strike that.
` Do you think that a person of ordinary skill in
`the art would not be familiar with various well-known
`communications methodologies?
` A Some people skilled in the art might be
`familiar with some of these different issues that I
`mentioned that Dr. Haas talked about, such as different
`methodologies, but they wouldn't necessarily know all
`the various different ways to trade them off and the
`advantages and disadvantages, things like that.
` Q And why do you think that the person of
`ordinary skill in the art would not know those things?
` A This is based on my experience. I've been a
`professor for a long time. I've dealt with a lot of
`engineers. I teach in a university. I've done that for
`many years. So it's based on my experience and
`knowledge.
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` Q Now, you say in paragraph 27 that the person of
`ordinary skill in the art would have an understanding of
`some of the communications techniques mentioned by
`Dr. Haas.
` Do you see that?
` A Looking around the fifth or sixth line there on
`page 10?
` Q Yes.
` A One, two, three -- the fifth -- line 5?
` Q Yes.
` A Yes. I see that.
` Q Which of the communications techniques
`mentioned by Dr. Haas would a person of ordinary skill
`in the art, in your opinion, understand?
` A I'm not saying there's a specific subset of
`communication techniques. I'm just saying that they
`would know perhaps some of them.
` Q Okay. Which ones?
` A It depends.
` Q What's it depend on?
` A It's kind of random. People of ordinarily
`skill might know certain techniques; they might know
`other techniques. It's not -- the actual specific
`techniques that they know, I'm not saying is a fixed
`set.
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` Q Okay. But you say that this person of ordinary
`skill in the art would have an understanding of some of
`the communications techniques mentioned by Dr. Haas.
` So are you saying that you can't identify any
`of the ones that he would or would not be familiar with
`or understand?
` A Well --
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: So a person of ordinary skill in
`the art of the '431 patent would generally understand
`the communication techniques described or used in the
`'431 patent. So, for example, OFDM is a good example.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q But you can't articulate or list for me any of
`the communications techniques mentioned by Dr. Haas that
`a person of ordinary skill in the art would not
`understand.
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Correct?
` A I think a person of ordinary skill in the art
`of the '431 patent would know perhaps some of these
`things that Dr. Haas talks about but not all, and I
`don't think it's always necessarily going to be the same
`ones, so I couldn't really point to a specific one
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`Page 13
`because it could vary depending on what that person of
`ordinary skill was like.
` Q Could a person of ordinary skill in the art be
`familiar with or understand all of the communications
`techniques that Dr. Haas mentions?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: I think it's unlikely.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q And why is that?
` A Well, based on my experience, I think a person
`of ordinary skill in the art typically knows some of
`them but just not all of them, just based on my
`experience.
` Q And which ones would a person of ordinary skill
`in the art be most likely not to understand?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form. I'm just going
`to insert on the record here, honestly, I'm not sure
`what you're referring to as to what Dr. Haas said. Are
`you saying what he said in his deposition or in his
`declaration?
` MR. EMERSON: I'm referring to Dr. Zeger's
`declaration where he refers to Dr. Haas's declaration
`and his discussion of a person of ordinary skill in the
`art.
` THE WITNESS: So my answers have been based on
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`Page 14
`my paragraph 26. So is your question for me to answer
`with respect to my paragraph 26? Just so I get it
`right.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q I would say 26 and 27. I mean, 27 is where you
`state that -- on page 10, paragraph 27 is where you
`state that this person would have an understanding of
`some of the communications techniques mentioned by
`Dr. Haas.
` A Okay. So that statement in my paragraph 27 is
`referring back to my paragraph 26 where I quote
`Dr. Haas. And just to be clear about these techniques,
`communication techniques, so I talk about -- or I'm
`quoting Dr. Haas as mentioning things such as speed,
`power consumption, cost, methodologies, protocols,
`techniques.
` So I'm saying this in kind of a general sense,
`that a person of ordinary skill in the art of the '431
`patent, in my opinion, would know some of these things
`but not typically all of them, and I don't think it's
`necessarily always a specific subset of them.
` Q So when you're talking about things that a
`person of ordinary skill in the art might not know,
`you're talking about the things that Dr. Haas mentions
`as you quote on paragraph 26, such as OFDM and then
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`advantages, disadvantages, speed, power, cost,
`et cetera. That's what you're referring to?
` A Well, I think maybe I can clarify it. My main
`point in saying that statement about what I
`understand -- would have an understanding of some of the
`communication techniques, what I mean by that is really
`that such a person wouldn't have extraordinary
`capabilities; abilities to invent, to make extremely
`creative decisions. Such a person would basically be
`able to follow a road map, be able to look at a claim,
`figure out how to make and use based on the
`specification. And maybe if that person were instructed
`by a very highly skilled person, they might, you know,
`be able to use such guidance. But on their own, they
`wouldn't be able to really do much beyond practicing the
`invention.
` Q Okay. But we agree that the person of ordinary
`skill in the art under your definition would be able to
`practice the invention in the '431 patent; correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And as you understand it, practicing an
`invention means being able to make or use it; right?
` A I said make and use.
` Q Make and use. Sorry. You're right.
` A Yeah.
`
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` Q Thank you for the correction.
` Okay. Well, would the '431 patent assume that
`a person of ordinary skill in the art would understand
`OFDM?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: So if we take a look at the '431
`patent, for example, just to point this out for the
`record, in the abstract, it talks about OFDM, and the
`patent itself talks about OFDM, so certainly that would
`be something important for a person of ordinary skill in
`the art to have an understanding of.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q And do we agree that your person of ordinary
`skill in the art would understand OFDM?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Here's a side question: What's the
`difference between OFDM and OFDMA?
` A So OFDM is orthogonal frequency division
`multiplexing, and that's basically a way of modulating
`information on a set of carriers that are typically
`spaced. And that could be done for the purpose of
`communicating between a pair of communicators, like a
`sender and a receiver.
` The "A" at the end of OFDMA stands for
`"access," so that's orthogonal frequency division
`
`ERIC-1018
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`multiple access. Multiplex access adds the component of
`allowing more than one user to share the spectrum, so
`multiple users can use this OFDM system at the same
`time.
` Q Okay. Well, does the '431 -- let me ask --
`strike that.
` Does your person of ordinary skill in the art
`understand OFDMA?
` A Well, again, just to point this out, if you
`look at the '431 patent, just for the record, for
`example, column 4, line 16, it talks about variable
`bandwidth OFDMA. So OFDMA is definitely part of the
`'431 patent. So a person of ordinary skill in the art
`of the '431 patent, in my opinion, would have to have an
`understanding of that.
` Q Okay. Would your person of ordinary skill in
`the art understand time division duplexing?
` A I think an ordinary person -- a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would have an understanding --
`a basic understanding of that, yes.
` Q Would your person of ordinary skill in the art
`understand frequency division duplexing?
` A They would have an understanding of that, a
`basic understanding.
` Q Would your person of ordinary skill in the art
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`understand code division multiple access, or CDMA?
` A In the '431 patent, CDMA is discussed fairly
`superficially in a detailed description in column 2 and
`also column 1. I don't believe it's used beyond that in
`any significant, substantial way. So only with respect
`to knowing -- understanding the background and a little
`bit of the detailed description. A very superficial
`understanding of CDMA would be required of a person of
`ordinary skill in the art.
` Q Why don't you turn to column 2, please, of
`'431.
` A Okay.
` Q In the first sentence under the "Detailed
`Description" --
` A Oh, yeah. Okay.
` Q It talks about Multi-Carrier Code Division
`Multiple Access, or MC-CDMA.
` A Yeah. Let me update my previous answer. I
`didn't notice that.
` I think a person would have more than just a
`superficial understanding of CDMA. They would have an
`understanding -- a basic understanding of CDMA.
` Q Okay. Let's turn to the claims of the '431
`patent.
` And before I get into that, you talked about
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`ERIC-1018
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`the person of ordinary skill in the art having an
`ordinary level of creativity. Is that -- is that fair
`to say?
` Let me reask the question. It's your opinion
`that Dr. Haas's person of ordinary skill in the art --
`strike that.
` It's your opinion that Dr. Haas is assuming
`that a person of ordinary skill in the art has a
`extraordinary level of creativity.
` Would that be fair to say?
` A Yes. I would agree with that.
` Q Okay. What -- can you --
` A I'm sorry. I agree that he said that. I'm not
`agreeing that that's what I would say an ordinary person
`with skill in the art would have.
` Q You and Dr. Haas have a disagreement, namely
`that you believe Dr. Haas's person of ordinary skill in
`the art has an extraordinary level of creativity. Fair
`to say?
` A That is correct.
` Q Okay. Can you describe what level of
`creativity the proper person of ordinary skill in the
`art has compared to Dr. Haas's?
` A Well, in my paragraph 27 on page 10, if you
`look at line 7, the sentence says, "Such a person would
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`ERIC-1018
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`have ordinary levels of creativity and would not
`necessarily know how to apply different techniques to
`different communications systems without further
`guidance."
` I think that answers the question.
` Q I'm trying to get a feel for what you mean by
`ordinary levels of creativity versus Dr. Haas's POSITA's
`level of creativity. So can you explain the distinction
`there between an ordinary level of creativity and what
`you think Dr. Haas is assuming of the person of ordinary
`skill in the art?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: So at the end of the sentence I
`just read, where it says, "Such a person would know how
`to apply different techniques to different communication
`systems without further guidance," that's how I view a
`person with ordinary creativity would be.
` You wouldn't have to tell such a person -- I'm
`sorry. You would have to tell such a person how to do
`things beyond just applying different techniques -- I'm
`sorry. Strike what I just said. I just jumbled all my
`words together.
` I think this speaks for itself. Such a person
`would know but not necessarily know how to apply
`different techniques to different communications systems
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`ERIC-1018
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`without further guidance. That's for ordinary
`creativity.
` In contrast, for extraordinary creativity, I
`look over to paragraph 26. This would involve such
`things as knowing how to choose between different
`methodologies, protocols, and techniques to balance
`various goals of communication systems. So I'm quoting
`from Dr. Haas there, but that's typical of what I would
`consider extraordinary capabilities of creativity.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q So an ordinary -- person of ordinary -- an
`ordinary -- strike that.
` Let's say an ordinarily creative person of
`ordinary skill in the art might know of the different
`techniques but wouldn't necessarily be able to apply
`them. Is that your opinion?
` A Well, unfortunately, I have to nitpick a
`little. I disagree with the premise because you said an
`ordinarily skilled -- an ordinarily creative -- a person
`of ordinary skill in the art. I think by definition, a
`person of ordinary skill in the art has ordinary
`creativity. So I don't think there's another choice.
` Q Okay. All right. Then, great. Let's go with
`that definition.
` So is it your opinion that a person of ordinary
`
`ERIC-1018
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`Page 22
`skill in the art in this field might know of different
`techniques but wouldn't necessarily know how to apply
`them without guidance?
` A That is basically correct.
` Q So they might know what OFDM is but wouldn't be
`able to apply it to a specific situation; correct?
` A So a person might know what OFDM is, but
`without having the patent in front of them saying,
`"Here's how to use OFDM in a system to do Q, Y, and Z,"
`the person wouldn't come up with that on their own
`without, let's say, a road map of the patent itself.
` Q And that's the point of the patent; correct?
`The patent teaches the person of ordinary skill in the
`art how to practice the invention; right?
` A Well, I'm not sure if that's the point of a
`patent, but it certainly -- that's one thing that a
`patent does. It teaches how to practice, make, and use
`a disclosed invention.
` Q In order to be valid, a patent has to teach the
`person of ordinary skill in the art how to practice the
`invention; correct?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Foundation.
` THE WITNESS: Well, I think you're asking me a
`legal question. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding
`as a nonlawyer is basically, if a person of ordinary
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`ERIC-1018
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`Page 23
`skill in the art reads a patent, they should be able to
`practice it.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q So do you believe that a person of ordinary
`skill in the art reading the '431 patent would not be
`able to practice the inventions described and claimed in
`that patent?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: I think I misheard a word or two.
`Can I just have it re-read or something?
` MR. EMERSON: Certainly.
` (Record read.)
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q And to be clear, I'm talking about the '431
`patent.
` A I think I disagree with that. I think a person
`of ordinary skill in the art reading the '431 patent
`would be able to practice the '431 patent.
` Q So that person would be able to apply, for
`example, OFDM techniques to various situations such as
`the ones described in the '431 patent?
` A Such a person would be able to use OFDM as
`taught and disclosed in the '431 patent.
` Q Okay. All right. Let's turn to the claims of
`the '431 patent, please.
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`ERIC-1018
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` Okay. And if you could turn to Claim 8.
` A Okay.
` Q Do you want a minute to scan that claim? I'm
`going to ask you a few specific questions about it.
` A Okay.
` Q Okay. So at the top of column 12, they talk
`about certain properties of the primary preamble.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Does the '431 patent specify the size of a
`correlation peak relative to the sidelobes in order to
`qualify as large?
` A I don't believe explicitly that it does.
` Q Do you believe that a person of ordinary skill
`in the art having the '431 patent in front of him would
`be able to practice the invention claimed in Claim 8?
` A Yes.
` Q But to be clear, the patent doesn't specify how
`large the correlation peak must be with respect to the
`sidelobes.
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Correct?
` A The '431 patent does not explicitly quantify
`what "large" means there in the column 12 line that you
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`ERIC-1018
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`pointed out.
` Q Do you see again at column 12 in Claim 8, under
`the properties of the primary preamble, last part where
`it says, "wherein a large number of primary preamble
`sequences exhibit the properties"?
` A Yes.
` Q So does the '431 patent actually describe the
`sequences?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope of
`direct.
` THE WITNESS: My recollection is the '431
`patent does not explicitly describe the sequences.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q The '431 patent simply describes the desired
`properties of the sequences; correct?
` MS. HWANG: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure if that's the only
`thing it describes, but it does describe the properties.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Okay. So in the '431 patent, does the '431
`patent describe an actual OFDM symbol?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean by
`"describe a symbol."
`///
`
`ERIC-1018
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`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Does that have any meaning to you?
` A Not really, the way you said it.
` Q What is an OFDM symbol, in your understanding?
` A Well, an OFDM symbol is a mathematical
`construct. It's a time waveform. You know, it has
`certain mathematical properties. It depends exactly
`what you mean by the question.
` Q Okay. Why don't you turn to column 13, please.
` A Okay.
` Q And I'm looking at some of the -- the
`corresponding part of that claim discussing the
`properties of the primary preamble begins down around
`line 21.
` A Claim 18?
` Q Uh-huh.
` A Okay.
` Q And, again, those properties that -- they talk
`about "an autocorrelation having a large correlation
`peak with respect to sidelobes."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you agree with me that the '431 patent
`doesn't specify the size of a correlation peak with
`respect to sidelobes?
`
`ERIC-1018
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` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe it explicitly
`quantifies that value.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q So in order to practice the invention, the
`person of ordinary skill in the art would have to
`essentially design a primary preamble that has this --
`this property; correct?
` A I disagree.
` Q Why?
` A That would involve extraordinary creativity. A
`person of ordinary skill in the art could just use a
`known one.
` Q You would use a known one?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Likewise, with respect to the sequences,
`the actual sequences aren't described in the '431
`patent, are they?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: As far as I remember, not
`explicitly.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Does the '431 patent specify the size of a
`cross-correlation coefficient relative to power of other
`primary preambles as --
`
`ERIC-1018
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` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q -- as described in Claim 8?
` And, again, I'm on the properties.
` A We were just in Claim 18. Now we're going back
`to 8?
` Q Yeah.
` A Oh, okay.
` Q And, actually, you can take a look at Claim 8
`and Claim 18 because I think this language tracks where
`the claims talk about -- or claim -- the properties in
`the primary preamble.
` A It's not a big deal, but you did change one
`word in here. You said "relative to" instead of "with
`respect to," but I don't think that's substantial.
` Q I agree.
` A But I don't believe the '431 patent --
` Actually, you know what? I forgot your
`question. I'm sorry.
` Q Okay.
` A Yeah.
` Q That's fine. I understand.
` A You want me to read it here?
` Q I can restate it.
` A Yeah.
`
`ERIC-1018
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` Q Does the '431 patent specify the size of a
`cross-correlation coefficient with respect to power of
`other primary preambles?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: It does not quantify, explicitly,
`such a value.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q Likewise for Claim 18?
` A Correct.
` Q Does the '431 patent specify any primary
`preambles with a small peak-to-average ratio?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: Again, the value is not
`quantified explicitly.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q So the person of ordinary skill in the art
`would have to rely on his own judgment as to what
`constituted a small peak-to-average ratio; correct?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form. Outside the
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say his own judgment.
`I would say a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`rely on their own knowledge or understanding.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q So a person of ordinary skill in the art would
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`ERIC-1018
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`rely on their own knowledge or understanding in order to
`practice the invention here, specifically to have a
`primary preamble with a small peak-to-average ratio?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Form and outside the
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: In general, quantitative values
`that are not explicitly given in the disclosure of the
`'431 patent could be determined by a person of ordinary
`skill's knowledge or potentially resorting to a
`reference.
`BY MR. EMERSON:
` Q You think a person of ordinary skill in the art
`would know what it meant to have a small peak-to-average
`ratio in this context?
` MS. HWANG: Objection. Outside the scope.
` THE WITNESS: I haven't really ex
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