UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ERICSSON INC. AND TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON,
` Petitioners,
` v.
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC
` Patent Owner
`
` Case IPR2015-01664
` Patent No. 7,787,431
`_____________________________________________________
` VIDEOTAPED ORAL DEPOSITION OF
` ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D.
` APRIL 19, 2016
`_____________________________________________________
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D.,
`produced as a witness duly sworn by me at the
`instance of the Patent Owner, was taken in the above
`styled and numbered cause on the 19th day of April,
`A.D., 2016 from 9:02 a.m. to 2:33 p.m., before Kellie
`L. Rowbotham, CSR in and for the State of Texas,
`reported by stenographic means, at the offices of
`Haynes and Boone, LLP, located at 2505 North Plano
`Road, Suite 4000, Richardson, Texas 75082, pursuant
`to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the
`provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
`
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ERICSSON INC. AND TELEFONAKTIEBOLAGET LM ERICSSON,
` Petitioners,
` v.
` INTELLECTUAL VENTURES II LLC
` Patent Owner
`
` Case IPR2015-01664
` Patent No. 7,787,431
`_____________________________________________________
` VIDEOTAPED ORAL DEPOSITION OF
` ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D.
` APRIL 19, 2016
`_____________________________________________________
`
` ORAL DEPOSITION OF ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D.,
`produced as a witness duly sworn by me at the
`instance of the Patent Owner, was taken in the above
`styled and numbered cause on the 19th day of April,
`A.D., 2016 from 9:02 a.m. to 2:33 p.m., before Kellie
`L. Rowbotham, CSR in and for the State of Texas,
`reported by stenographic means, at the offices of
`Haynes and Boone, LLP, located at 2505 North Plano
`Road, Suite 4000, Richardson, Texas 75082, pursuant
`to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the
`provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`FOR THE PETITIONERS:
` Mr. John Russell Emerson
` HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` 2323 Victory Avenue
` Suite 700
` Dallas, Texas 75219
` (214) 651-5328
` (214) 200-0884 fax
` russ.emerson@haynesboone.com
` - and -
` Mr. J. Andrew Lowes
` HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` 2505 N. Plano Road
` Suite 4000
` Richardson, Texas 75082
` (72) 680-7557
` (972) 692-9057 fax
` andrew.lowes@haynesboone.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
` Ms. Sharon A. Hwang
` Mr. Rajendra Chiplunkar
` MCANDREWS, HELD & MALLOY, LTD.
` 500 West Madison Street
` 34th Floor
` Chicago, Illinois 60661
` (312) 775-8000
` (312) 775-8100 fax
` shwang@mcandrews-ip.com
` rchiplunkar@mcandrews-ip.com
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Mr. Ben Westover - Ericsson
` Ms. Alexis Anderson - Videographer
`
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`Page 3
`
` INDEX
` PAGE
`Appearances........................................2
`Stipulations.......................................4
`ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D.
` Examination by Ms. Hwang .....................5
`Signature and Changes............................159
`Reporter's Certificate...........................161
`
` EXHIBITS
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
` 1001 Li Patent 7,787,431 B2 55
` 1002 Dulin Patent Application Publication 91
` 1003 Yamaura Patent 7,782,750 B2 113
` 1007 Curriculum Vitae of Zygmunt Haas 6
` 1012 Report of Zygmunt Haas, Ph.D. 8
` 1015 Principles of Wireless Networks 121
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the record in
`the videotaped deposition of Zygmunt J. Haas, Ph.D.
`Today's date is April 19th, 2016. The time is
`approximately 9:02 a.m. This is the start of Tape
`Number 1.
` For the record, will counsel please
`state their appearances, and then the court reporter
`will swear in the witness.
` MS. HWANG: Sharon Hwang from
`McAndrews, Held & Malloy, for Patent Owner
`Intellectual Ventures.
` MR. CHIPLUNKAR: Rajendra Chiplunkar,
`McAndrews, Held & Malloy, for Intellectual Ventures.
` MR. EMERSON: Russ Emerson, Haynes and
`Boone for Ericsson.
` MR. LOWES: Andrew Lowes, Haynes and
`Boone for Ericsson.
` ZYGMUNT HAAS, PH.D,
`having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
` MS. HWANG: I just want to read a
`stipulation for the record. The parties stipulate
`that the video of today's deposition will only be
`usable in this IPR proceeding. There's no
`stipulation as to the use of the deposition
`
`
`
`Page 5
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`transcript in other proceedings.
` EXAMINATION
`BY MS. HWANG:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Haas.
` A Good morning, ma'am.
` Q Have you done anything to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A Yes. I reviewed my -- my declaration -- I
`reviewed my declaration. I reviewed the prior art
`that is cited in my declaration, and I met with
`counsel a number of times.
` Q Who did you meet with?
` A Which counsel?
` Q Yes.
` A With Andrew, Russ -- and -- Russ and also
`Clint Wilkins as well.
` Q Okay. And when did you meet?
` A So we met last Wednesday for a very
`relatively short time. We met on Thursday, and we
`met yesterday.
` Q Did you review documents with counsel?
` A When you say, "review," yeah, we talked
`about documents, yes.
` Q The declaration and the prior art that you
`cited?
`
`
`
`Page 6
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` A Yes.
` Q Anything else?
` A I -- we also talked about documents such as
`the board decision and --
` Q Are you referring to the board's institution
`decision in this IPR?
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q Okay.
` A And also I believe we talked about the
`petition, and we talked about the response of the
`patent owner. I believe it's called preliminary
`response, if I remember correctly.
` Q Okay. I'm going to hand you a document that
`was previously marked as Exhibit 1007.
` A I mean, in addition to, of course, prior art
`as well.
` Q Do you recall which prior art references you
`reviewed with counsel?
` A We talked about essentially all prior art, I
`believe.
` Q Prior art cited in your declaration?
` A Prior art cited in my declaration, yes.
` Q Any additional prior art that wasn't cited
`in your declaration?
` A Not that I recall, ma'am. No.
`
`
`
`Page 7
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` Q Okay. Let's look at your C.V.
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q Is this an accurate copy of your Curriculum
`Vitae?
` A Yeah. It looks like an accurate copy.
` Q And it's dated May 28th, 2015?
` A Yes. That's what's stated, yes.
` Q Have there been any material changes to your
`C.V. since May 28, 2015?
` A Well, there have been a number of more
`publications that I have had since then.
` Q Can you describe generally what the
`publications were about and where they were
`published?
` A Okay. Sorry. I wouldn't remember exactly
`because I have a large number of publications. There
`were journal publications. For example, one was
`published in -- accepted to Transaction of Wireless
`Communications. There was another one which was
`accepted through communication letters. What else...
` Q What was the general subject matter of your
`publications?
` A Wireless networks, mobile networks. There
`were also a number of conference papers also in the
`same areas. And in addition to this, I also have
`
`
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`Page 8
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`another project on energy, which also were published
`as conference papers. That's just what I remember
`right now.
` You know, I publish all the time. So,
`of course, I don't remember all the publications
`right now here.
` Q What about consulting engagements? Have you
`had any additional consulting engagements since
`May 28, 2015 that are not reflected in your CV of
`Exhibit 1007?
` A So what's reflected here is some of the
`depositions and some of trial testimony. If I
`remember correctly -- again, without checking -- I
`did not have any other depositions since May 28, '15
`that are not listed here. But, again, one hundred
`percent, you know, I would have to check on this.
`But that's my recollection. There were no other
`depositions except with this here. That's my
`recollection right now.
` Q Have you had any other -- have you testified
`in any trials since May 28th, 2015?
` A No. To my recollection I did not.
` Q I'm going to hand you a document that has
`been marked as Exhibit 1012. Are you familiar with
`Exhibit 1012?
`
`
`
`Page 9
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` A Yes. So this is -- this is my declaration
`in this matter, which I also have a copy here, which
`is just easier to look at because it's in a binder.
` I want to mention that while I reviewed
`this declaration for my preparation for this
`deposition, I realized there are a few typos, which I
`may just quickly mention.
` Q Okay. Are they substantive typos?
` A Well, I mean, you'll be the judge.
` Q Okay.
` A On Page, for example, 85 it refers to
`"plurality of subscribers." It should be "plurality
`of subcarriers."
` Similar, on Page 86, in the upper
`paragraph it refers twice to "plurality of
`subscribers," which should be "plurality of
`subcarriers." And, again, that probably should be
`clear from the content -- context. But, you know,
`just to be on the safe side, I want to mention it.
` Also on Page 30 -- for example, on
`Page 30 and throughout some other parts of the
`declaration I refer to -- with respect to Dulin,
`which is a reference, I refer to -- I say, "frequency
`blocks B5 and B6," for example. Maybe a better, more
`clear, language would be "frequency blocks assigned
`
`
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`Page 10
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`to B5 and B6. So I often just use the word
`"frequency blocks B5 and B6" or "frequency blocks
`B1," but a better -- a more clear language would be
`"frequency blocks assigned to B1 and B"... So that's
`what I want to mention.
` Q Okay. Anything else?
` A That's what I recall right now.
` Q All right. Now, Exhibit 1012 only discusses
`claims 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 of the '431 patent; is
`that correct?
` A That's correct, ma'am.
` Q It doesn't discuss all the claims of the
`'431.
` A No. Just the claims that you mentioned.
` Q And this is the second time that you've
`submitted a declaration pertaining to claims 8 to 12
`and 18 to 22 of the '431 patent, correct?
` A In this matter, yes, ma'am.
` Q Now, can you please turn to Page 120 of
`Exhibit 1012?
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q Is that your signature on Page 120?
` A Yes. This is my signature, ma'am.
` Q And you signed the declaration on July 30th,
`2015?
`
`
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`Page 11
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` A Yes. This copy was signed on that date.
` Q Okay. And it states here that the
`declaration and opinions are made to the best of your
`knowledge based on the material available to you, and
`you declare that all the statements made herein are
`true and then subject to Section 1001, Title 18,
`correct?
` A Yes.
` Q So would it be fair to say that the opinions
`included in 1012 are a true and accurate reflection
`of the entirety of the opinions that you have
`regarding claims 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 of the '431
`patent?
` A Entirety? Well, those are my opinions that
`I wrote in this declaration.
` Q Are there additional opinions that you have
`regarding claims 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 that you did
`not include in your declaration?
` A Not that I can specifically think about.
` Q So there's not been an argument that you
`forgot to make, for example? Like this Exhibit 1012
`is what you're submitting as your testimony
`regarding 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 of the '431 patent for
`this IPR?
` A Well, that's -- those are my opinions which
`
`
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`Page 12
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`I submit for this matter. There are -- you know,
`there may be other considerations, which I didn't
`bother to put forward here. But those are all my
`opinions, which I believed were important to put in
`such a document.
` Q So would it be fair to say that all of the
`opinions that you have regarding claims 8 to 12
`and 18 to 22 that are supportive of your ultimate
`conclusions regarding those claims are included
`within your declaration?
` A Again, I'm not sure how to answer it
`because, you know, when -- there may be other
`opinions that went through my mind and my -- not
`opinions -- other considerations that went through my
`mind. For example, you know, a reason to combine
`different references and so on, I stated those which
`I believe were most important; but there are others
`which I can think of. So those opinions that are
`mentioned here are the opinions which I believe are
`important to put in such a document.
` Q And you understand that Exhibit 1012 is your
`testimony regarding Claims 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 of
`the '431 patent. So to the extent you have other
`opinions that you didn't include, those aren't part
`of your testimony; is that fair to say?
`
`
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`Page 13
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` A Well, those are not part this declaration if
`I did not put them here, right.
` Q Okay. Let's go to Page 1 of your
`declaration.
` A Yes.
` Q Exhibit 1012. Now, you prepared
`Exhibit 1012 at the request of the two Ericsson
`entities that are listed in Paragraph 1, correct?
` A I prepared the declaration at the request of
`the counsel for Ericsson.
` Q Okay. And counsel for Ericsson and the
`other Ericsson entity, is Ericsson, Inc. and -- I'm
`not going to try to say it -- Telefonaktiebolaget.
`Ericsson -- those are the two Ericsson entities in
`this IPR, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, is it your understanding --
` A I'm sorry. That's my understanding.
` Q Okay. And is it your understanding that
`your declaration was submitted to the patent trial
`and appeal board in connection with a petition for
`interparty's review submitted by Ericsson?
` A That's my understanding.
` Q And have you read the petition for
`interparty's review of the '431 patent that your
`
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`declaration supports?
` A Yes. I read the petition.
` Q And you understand, again, that's the second
`petition for IPR on the same '431 patent, correct?
` A Yes. I understand that this is my -- I
`understand that this is a second petition with
`respect to those claims.
` Q And is it your understanding that the
`petition for IPR for the present matter relies on
`your declaration for support?
` A Of course. I understand this.
` Q Okay. And did you read the draft petition
`before you prepared your declaration?
` A I cannot recall one hundred percent. But I
`would say off of the top of my head right now that I
`did not before I prepared my petition -- before I
`prepared my declaration. In other words, I did not
`read the petition before I prepared my declaration,
`but that's my recollection right now when I sit here.
` Q Do you recall --
` A I would have to check my records otherwise.
` Q So you signed your declaration on July 30th,
`2015, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q When did you begin work on your declaration
`
`
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`of Exhibit 1012?
` A Off the top of my head, I would say probably
`a few weeks before, but I cannot give you an exact
`date without looking at the records.
` Q Now, again, we just discussed earlier that
`it's your second declaration that you have submitted
`in connection with claims 8 to 12 and 18 to 22 of
`the '431 patent, correct?
` A This is correct, ma'am.
` Q Why did you submit a second declaration?
` A Why did I submit a second declaration? I
`was asked by counsel to prepare such a declaration.
` Q Now, you have changed some of your opinions
`in your second declaration of Exhibit 1012 as
`compared to the first declaration that you submitted.
`Is that fair to say?
` MR. EMERSON: Object to the form.
` A You would have to point to me which opinions
`you think I changed.
` Q Well, you rely on different prior art, for
`example, correct?
` A The second declaration relies on different
`prior art as the first declaration.
` Q Why did you rely on different prior art in
`the second declaration as opposed to the first?
`
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` A I just want to state -- I just want to
`correct the prior answer. Some of the prior art is
`used in both -- the same -- some of the prior art --
`the same prior art is used in both declarations. For
`example, Yamaura is used in both declarations, the
`prior declaration and this declaration. So I want to
`correct this. Not every prior art in the second
`declaration is different from the prior art in the
`first declaration. There are some prior arts which
`are common to both declarations. I'm sorry. Can you
`repeat the question again?
` Q Sure. Let's look specifically at Dulin.
`Dulin is a prior art reference that you are referring
`to in Exhibit 1012, correct?
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q When did you first become aware of Dulin?
` A I was given the reference by counsel for
`Ericsson.
` Q When?
` A It start -- when I started working on the
`second declaration.
` Q Were you aware of Dulin when you prepared
`your first declaration?
` A I was not aware of Dulin when I prepared the
`first declaration. That's my recollection right now.
`
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` Q You cite to another reference called Hwang
`in your second declaration of Exhibit 1012. Do you
`recall the Hwang reference?
` A Yes. I recall the Hwang reference, yes.
` Q When did you first become aware of the Hwang
`reference?
` A I would answer the same question -- I would
`give the same answer that I became aware of the
`reference Hwang, if I recall correctly, when I
`started working on the second declaration.
` Q Okay. And the Hwang reference was given to
`you by counsel?
` A That's correct.
` Q So you didn't find the Hwang reference
`yourself?
` A I did not find the Hwang reference myself,
`no.
` Q And you did not find the Dulin reference
`yourself?
` A No, I did not, ma'am.
` Q Did you do any search of prior art to find
`references to support the opinions that you've set
`forth in Exhibit 1012?
` A I typically do some limited search, and I
`looked at different art that was -- that existed at
`
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`the time of the priority date of the '431 patent. So
`typically I do some limited search.
` Q Did you here?
` A I'm sorry?
` Q You said you typically do a limited search.
`Did you do a limited search in connection with your
`work regarding the '431 patent?
` A For the second declaration?
` Q Yes.
` A I don't recall with respect to the second
`declaration specifically. But I typically do such
`limited search. So I definitely did it with respect
`to the first declaration, and I might have done it
`also with respect to the second declaration.
` Q You don't specifically recall, though?
` A I don't specifically recall for the second
`declaration, no, ma'am.
` Q Okay. Let's go to Paragraph 2 of
`Exhibit 1012.
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q You have a listing of different materials
`that you have studied in connection with your
`preparation of your declaration?
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q Is it fair to say that the listing of
`
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`materials in Paragraph 2 is a comprehensive list of
`the documents that you considered in connection with
`coming up with your opinions as expressed in
`Exhibit 1012?
` A It's a list of documents that I considered
`in preparation of this declaration and which I cited
`in the declaration.
` Q Is the list of Paragraph 2 inclusive of all
`the documents that you considered in preparing your
`declaration?
` A All documents... I cannot recall if I
`didn't look at another book or something. You know,
`it's sort of difficult for me to say that I -- during
`the preparation I didn't look at another book, for
`example, or something. But this is a list of
`references that I relied on in preparation of the
`declaration.
` Q Is there any specific document or material
`that you can think of sitting here today that you
`relied on in connection with preparing your
`declaration but that is not listed in Paragraph 2?
` A Not that I can recall right now, no.
` Q And if a document is not listed in
`Paragraph 2, is it fair to assume that you didn't
`consider it in connection with your work on the
`
`
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`declaration of Exhibit 1012?
` A It's fair to assume that I didn't rely on
`this in writing this declaration.
` Q Okay. And you did not consider the
`prosecution history of the '431 patent in connection
`with preparing your declaration of Exhibit 1012?
` A No, I did not.
` Q Okay. And you understand that the
`prosecution history is part of the intrinsic record
`of the '431 patent, correct?
` A Well, I relied on material as stated here in
`preparation of the declaration.
` Q But not the file history?
` A As you mentioned, file history does not
`appear in this material here; and, therefore, I did
`not rely on file history in preparation of this
`declaration.
` Q Who chose the list of documents in
`Paragraph 2? You or counsel?
` A I don't think there was such a clear choice
`that one or -- either me or the counsel. We
`discussed various references, and we -- while we
`discussed those references, we came up with those
`references listed here, which would be best
`supporting my opinions.
`
`
`
`Page 21
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` Q Did you independently find any of the
`references listed in Paragraph 2 of Exhibit 1012?
` A So it's difficult for me to answer because,
`for example, the book by Pahlavan, which is Reference
`Number 11 listed in my -- here, it's a very
`well-known book. I have it on my shelf. And I might
`have mentioned it to counsel, or maybe the counsel
`mentioned it to me. It's very difficult for me to
`remember specifically who was the first one to
`mention it.
` Similarly, I'm very much aware of the
`book by van Nee and Prasad, which is Reference
`Number 6. Of course, I, myself, wrote Number 7,
`which is my C.V. So, again, there's no one, you
`know, answer to your question who came with this list
`of references.
` Q So your opinions in Exhibit 1012 rely
`primarily on Dulin, Yamaura, Zhuang and Hwang. Is
`that fair to say?
` A Well, I'm not exactly sure. When you say
`"primarily" -- all those references are important to
`my declaration. That's why I put them here.
` Q Okay. So are you saying that all of the
`references that you've listed in Paragraph 2 are
`important to your ultimate conclusion of obviousness?
`
`
`
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` A Otherwise, I wouldn't put them here if they
`were not important.
` Q Now, you didn't independently find Yamaura
`through a search; is that correct?
` A And, again, I can just give you an answer
`from my recollection. Right now -- as I sit here
`right now, I do not recall that I independently came
`up with Yamaura as a reference.
` Q And would the same be true with respect to
`Zhuang?
` A And the same would be true with respect to
`Zhuang. As I sit here right now, I do not recall
`that I came independently with that reference.
` Q Okay. Looking at Paragraph 4 of
`Exhibit 1012 --
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q -- you have assumed a priority date for
`the '431 patent of May 1st, 2004 correct?
` A I listed here that the earliest priority
`date is May 1st, 2004.
` Q And then you've stated that "Based on the
`technologies disclosed in the '431 patent, I believe
`that one of ordinary skill in the art would include
`someone who has a Bachelors of Electrical
`Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science,
`
`
`
`Page 23
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`or equivalent training, as well as three to five
`years of technical experience in the digital
`communication systems, such as wireless cellular
`communications systems and networks." Do you see
`that in Paragraph 4?
` A Yes. I see this sentence.
` Q And so you are assuming for purposes of your
`analysis that one of ordinary skill in the art has
`the qualifications that you have set forth in
`Paragraph 4, correct?
` A As a degree and training as expressed in
`this sentence.
` Q Okay. Can we look at Paragraph 41 --
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q -- of Exhibit 1012?
` A Yes, ma'am.
` Q So in Paragraph 41 you've restated the same
`sentence regarding "one of ordinary skill having a
`Bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering, Computer
`Engineering, Computer Science, or equivalent
`training, as well as three to five years of technical
`experience in the field of digital communication
`systems, such as wireless cellular communication
`systems and networks." Do you see that?
` A I see the sentence, yes.
`
`
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` Q And then after that you have several
`additional sentences. For example, "such a person
`would be familiar with various well-known
`communication methodologies, protocols, and
`techniques such as OFDM" -- and then there are some
`additional sentences after that. Do you see that?
` A Yes, ma'am. I do.
` Q Now, are those additional sentences supposed
`to qualify the person skilled in the art? Are those
`additional requirements of a person skilled in the
`art?
` A No. They're not additional requirements.
`They simply say that such a person would be familiar
`with those technologies. In other words, the --
`finishing, of ordinary skilled in the art is a
`degree -- Bachelor's degree in Electrical
`Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science,
`or equivalent training, as well as three to five
`years of technical experience in the field of digital
`communication such as wireless communication systems
`and network and having such an experience and such a
`training -- I explained that such a person will be
`familiar with those technologies because of the
`training and the experience.
` Q So when you say such a person would be
`
`
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`familiar with various well-known communication
`methodologies, are you assuming that such a person
`would be familiar with all well-known communication
`methodologies, protocols and techniques --
` A Well --
` Q -- that were available at the time?
` A Well, I don't know if anyone is familiar
`with everything which is developed in the field. You
`know, that probably would be incorrect to state. The
`field is very broad and moving very fast.
` But a person that got such a training
`and such experience would be familiar with those
`well-known communication methodologies as written
`here, well-known communication --
` Q What does "various" mean?
` A Different.
` Q Are you referring to all well-known
`communication methodologies? In other words, if it's
`well-known, then a person skilled in the art would be
`familiar with it?
` A Various. Different.
` Q I'm sorry?
` A Various. It means different.
` Q So how do you know which well-known
`communication methodologies, protocols and techniques
`
`
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`such a person of ordinary skill would be familiar
`with?
` A I'll give an example here. Such as OFDM.
` Q Are there any other examples other than
`OFDM?
` A CDMA.
` Q Okay. Anything else?
` A I can give you another list of other
`technologies, but those are well-known technologies.
`Whoever takes a course in Digital Communication and
`Wireless Communication System and Networks would be
`familiar with such technologies.
` Q Okay. And are you looking at it from the
`standpoint of a person who has three to five years of
`technical experience and a Bachelor's degree as of
`May 1st, 2004?
` A Absolutely.
` Q Okay. So is it your opinion that a person
`who has a Bachelor's degree in Electrical
`Engineering, Computer Engineering, Computer Science,
`or equivalent training, plus three to five years,
`such a person would necessarily be familiar with
`various well-known communication methodologies,
`protocols and techniques such as OFDM?
` A I'm saying that whoever has this experience
`
`
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`and training would be familiar with such -- with
`well-known technologies such as OFDM.
` Q And such as CDMA and such as what else? I
`mean, it seems rather --
` A Well-known techniques, which are --
` Q Define "well-known" as of May 1st, 2004.
` A Well-known -- whoever takes a course in
`Digital Communication and Wireless Communication
`Systems and Networks would learn about such
`techniques.
` Q What techniques? That's what I'm asking.
`I'm not asking about well-known. I'm asking what
`communication methodologies, protocols and techniques
`would this person of ordinary skill be familiar with?
` A Techniques which are taught as part of BSC
`in electrical and computer engineering or computer
`science with three to five years experience in the
`field of digital communication.
` Q Right. I see that you have that written
`there. What I want to know is examples of what you
`consider to be well-known communication,
`methodologies, protocols and techniques as of May of
`2004.
` A Well, so I gave you an example. OFDM.
` Q Right. What other examples?
`
`
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` A CDMA. CDMA.
` Q Okay.
` A TDMA, FDMA. All those techniques are
`well-known techniques in the field of communication
`and wireless communication that a person of ordinary
`skill in the art would have known. If I were to
`write all the possible techniques, I would give you a
`curriculum of a course in wireless communication that
`a person who took a course in wireless communication
`would know.
` Q Okay. And when you say, "familiar," what do
`you mean by "familiar"? How familiar would a person
`with a Bachelor's degree in EE, Computer Engineering,
`Computer Science or equivalent training and three to
`five years in technical experience, how familiar
`would they be with CDMA, TDMA, FDMA, OFDM and all the
`other communication methodologies that existed as of
`May of 2004?
` A So how familiar is explained in the rest of
`this paragraph, one of ordinary skill in the art
`would know how to apply these different techniques to
`different communication systems and networks. Each
`technique is associated with known advantages and
`disadvantages such as speed, power consumption and
`cost, and a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`
`
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`know how to choose between the different
`methodologies, protocols and techniques to balance
`the various goals of the communication systems and
`networks under consideration. So this is what I
`consider as an example of what familiarity with those
`techniques means.
` Q Okay. So a person of skill in the art, a
`person that has a Bachelor's degree in EE, Computer
`Engineering, Computer Science or equivalent training,
`three to five years of technical experience in your
`view would be familiar with the well-known
`communi
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