·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· AMERICAN MEGATRENDS,· · ·)
`· · INC., MICRO-STAR· · · · ·)
`·5· INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD., )
`· · MSI COMPUTER CORP.,· · · )
`·6· GIGA-BYTE TECHNOLOGY CO.,)
`· · LTD., and G.B.T., INC.,· ) Case IPR2015-01141
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Patent 6,633,976
`· · · · · · · · Petitioner,· )
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · KINGLITE HOLDINGS LLC.,· )
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · Patent Owner.)
`11· _________________________)
`
`12
`
`13· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF:· SHAHIN NAZARIAN, Ph.D.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·TAKEN ON:· MARCH 15, 2016
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·REPORTED BY:
`
`25· ·PATRICIA L. HUBBARD, CSR #3400
`
`AMI Ex. 1017
`
`1
`
`
`
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· AMERICAN MEGATRENDS,· · ·)
`· · INC., MICRO-STAR· · · · ·)
`·5· INTERNATIONAL CO., LTD., )
`· · MSI COMPUTER CORP.,· · · )
`·6· GIGA-BYTE TECHNOLOGY CO.,)
`· · LTD., and G.B.T., INC.,· ) Case IPR2015-01141
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Patent 6,633,976
`· · · · · · · · Petitioner,· )
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · KINGLITE HOLDINGS LLC.,· )
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · Patent Owner.)
`11· _________________________)
`
`12
`
`13· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF:· SHAHIN NAZARIAN, Ph.D.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·TAKEN ON:· MARCH 15, 2016
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·REPORTED BY:
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`25· ·PATRICIA L. HUBBARD, CSR #3400
`
`AMI Ex. 1017
`
`1
`
`
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`·1
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`·2· · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF SHAHIN NAZARIAN,
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`·3· · · · · · · Ph.D., taken on behalf of the
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`·4· · · · · · · Petitioner, at 9620 Airport
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`·5· · · · · · · Boulevard, Los Angeles,
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`·6· · · · · · · California, commencing at
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`·7· · · · · · · 5:51 P.M. on March 15, 2016,
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`·8· · · · · · · before PATRICIA L. HUBBARD,
`
`·9· · · · · · · CSR #3400, a Certified Shorthand
`
`10· · · · · · · Reporter in and for the State of
`
`11· · · · · · · California, pursuant to Notice.
`
`12
`
`13· ·APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
`
`14
`· · ·For the Petitioner:
`15
`· · · · · · HILL, KERTSCHER & WHARTON, LLP
`16· · · · · BY:· VIVEK GANTI,, ESQ.
`· · · · · · 3350 Riverwood Parkway, SE
`17· · · · · Suite 800
`· · · · · · Atlanta, Georgia 30339
`18· · · · · 770.953.0995
`· · · · · · vg@hkw-law.com
`19
`
`20· ·For the Patent Owner:
`
`21· · · · · STADHEIM & GREAR
`· · · · · · BY:· CHRISTOPHER H. ST. PETER, ESQ.
`22· · · · · 400 North Michigan Avenue
`· · · · · · Suite 2200
`23· · · · · Chicago, Illinois 60611
`· · · · · · 312.755.4400
`24· · · · · stpeter@stadheimgrear.com
`
`25
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`2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`·2
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`·3· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·SHAHIN NAZARIAN, Ph.D.
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`·5· · · · · (By Mr. Ganti)· · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
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`·6
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`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`·9· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · ·REFERENCED
`
`10· ·Exhibit 27· ·Notice of Deposition of· · · · · · 5
`· · · · · · · · ·Shahin Nazarian, Ph.D.
`11
`· · ·Exhibit 1001 United States Patent· · · · · · · ·8
`12· · · · · · · · Number 6,633,976 B1
`
`13· ·Exhibit 1003 United States Patent· · · · · · · ·9
`· · · · · · · · · Number 5,835,760
`14
`· · ·Exhibit 1004 United States Patent· · · · · · · ·9
`15· · · · · · · · Number 5,671,413
`
`16· ·Exhibit 1008 PCI Local Bus Specification· · · ·32
`· · · · · · · · · Revision 2.2 December 18,
`17· · · · · · · · 1998
`
`18· ·Exhibit 2008 Declaration of Shahin· · · · · · · 6
`· · · · · · · · · Nazarian, Ph.D.
`19
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`24
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`25
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`3
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·I N D E X· (Continued)
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`·2
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`·3· ·INFORMATION REQUESTED:
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`·4· · · · · (NONE)
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· ·WITNESS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER:
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`·8· · · · · (NONE)
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`·9
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`10
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`11
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`4
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`·1· · · · · · · · LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · MARCH 15, 2016
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · * * *
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · SHAHIN NAZARIAN, Ph.D.,
`
`·6· · · · · · · called as a witness, having been
`
`·7· · · · · · · sworn, was examined and testified
`
`·8· · · · · · · as follows:
`
`·9
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`11· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Good evening, Dr. Nazarian.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Good evening.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·Can you please state your full name for
`
`15· ·the record.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Shahin Nazarian.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to have the court
`
`18· ·reporter hand you a document.· Let's label this --
`
`19· ·give me just a moment.
`
`20· · · · · · · Let's label this paper 27.· And this
`
`21· ·document is titled Notice of Deposition of Shahin
`
`22· ·Nazarian, Ph.D.
`
`23· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
`
`24· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 27 by the
`
`25· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`5
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`·2· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Have you seen this document before,
`
`·4· ·Dr. Nazarian?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You understand that you are here
`
`·7· ·for your deposition testimony as it relates to case
`
`·8· ·number IPR2015-01141?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in relation to this case you
`
`11· ·submitted a declaration with respect to U.S. Patent
`
`12· ·number 6,633,976?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·And you understand you're here to
`
`15· ·testify with respect to that declaration?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm having the court reporter
`
`18· ·hand you a document with the label Exhibit 2008 in
`
`19· ·the bottom right-hand corner.· The document's title
`
`20· ·is Declaration of Dr. Shahin Nazarian.
`
`21· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
`
`22· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 2008 by the
`
`23· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`24· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`25· ·///
`
`6
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Take a moment to flip through this
`
`·3· ·document and let me know if this is the document
`
`·4· ·that you submitted in the IPR case that we just
`
`·5· ·discussed?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· And it has my C.V.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Good.
`
`·8· · · · · · · Okay.· And do you recall when you were
`
`·9· ·first engaged to undertake the work that you
`
`10· ·provided with respect to this case?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·This must have started sometime in
`
`12· ·October, I think.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know how much time you
`
`14· ·spent preparing your declaration?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Are you referring to just writing the
`
`16· ·declaration or in general the whole process?
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·The process of reviewing any documents,
`
`18· ·analyzing and formulating your thoughts and drafting
`
`19· ·your declaration.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·I do not have the data at the moment,
`
`21· ·but --
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·If you had to guess, roughly -- was it
`
`23· ·more or less than 30 hours?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·More than 30 hours.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And part of your -- in your
`
`7
`
`
`
`·1· ·declaration you've analyzed U.S. Patent number
`
`·2· ·6,633,976; is that right?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I want to have the court reporter
`
`·5· ·hand you a document.· This document has a label
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 1001 on the bottom right-hand corner.· It's
`
`·7· ·U.S. Patent number 6,633,976.
`
`·8· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
`
`·9· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 1001 by the
`
`10· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`11· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`12· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Take a moment to flip through this
`
`14· ·document and let me know if this is the '976 Patent
`
`15· ·that you reference in your declaration.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·And in part of your declaration you've
`
`18· ·analyzed the prior art; is that right?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·One of those pieces of prior art is the
`
`21· ·Harmer patent?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm having the court reporter
`
`24· ·hand you a document with the label Exhibit 1003 in
`
`25· ·the bottom right -- hand corner, U.S. Patent number
`
`8
`
`
`
`·1· ·5,835,760.
`
`·2· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
`
`·3· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 1003 by the
`
`·4· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`·5· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`·6· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Take a moment to flip through this and
`
`·8· ·let me know if you recognize this document to be the
`
`·9· ·Harmer reference that you've referenced in your
`
`10· ·declaration?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you also reference a document
`
`13· ·called Shipman in your declaration, correct?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·I'll have the court reporter hand you a
`
`16· ·document with the label Exhibit 1004 with the title
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`17· ·Patent number 5,671,413.
`
`18· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
`
`19· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 1004 by the
`
`20· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`21· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`22· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`23· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recognize this document to
`
`25· ·be the Shipman reference that you've referenced in
`
`9
`
`
`
`·1· ·your declaration?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's turn to your declaration.
`
`·4· · · · · · · And specifically, let's look at
`
`·5· ·paragraph four.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· In paragraph four you state,
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · "Shipman can only run BIOS
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · modules...."
`
`10· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So, let's turn to Shipman, page
`
`13· ·two, Figure 1.
`
`14· · · · · · · Let me know when you get there.
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`15· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does Figure 1 describe these BIOS
`
`17· ·modules?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· How does -- how does it do that?
`
`20· ·Or let me rephrase.
`
`21· · · · · · · Where in Figure 1 do you see a
`
`22· ·disclosure of BIOS modules?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Will you refer to column three.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.· I'm there.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·Line five.
`
`10
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · ·"In the present invention the BIOS
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · is organized into a set of BIOS
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · components, 32 through 54."
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So is a disclosure of BIOS
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`·6· ·components the same as BIOS modules?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·And then further down in the next
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`·9· ·paragraph it states,
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`10· · · · · · · · · "The ROM continue is a non-volatile
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`11· · · · · · · · · device used store the BIOS
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`12· · · · · · · · · components."
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`13· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Does that show in Figure 1 ROM 10
`
`16· ·storing the different BIOS modules?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·And each of these items 32 to 54 appear
`
`19· ·in ROM 10; is that right?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·At the time of invention what are some
`
`22· ·types of devices that would have been used to
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`23· ·implement ROM 10?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·It could use read-only memory based on
`
`25· ·MOS technology as an example.
`
`11
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Can you spell that?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·M-O-S.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Your declaration suggests that ROM
`
`·4· ·images may be on FLASH or EEPROM in paragraph four.
`
`·5· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Are those other examples of what
`
`·8· ·non-volatile memory can be?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Let's look at these different items that
`
`11· ·are in ROM 10.
`
`12· · · · · · · The first one, item 32, this is power-on
`
`13· ·self-test (POST) object.
`
`14· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Based on your review of the Shipman
`
`17· ·reference, what do you understand that to be?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·So, will you refer to column one, line
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`19· ·66.· So, power-on self-test is a cycle while the
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`20· ·initialization -- is a cycle when the initialization
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`21· ·components are dispatched.
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`22· · · · · · · So, during POST the initialization
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`23· ·components are dispatched.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· ·So this would be a POST module to
`
`25· ·facilitate this POST cycle?· Is that an accurate
`
`12
`
`
`
`·1· ·characterization of your testimony?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·I would like to stick with the terms
`
`·3· ·that are used in Shipman.
`
`·4· · · · · · · So, what I see here is that a POST cycle
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`·5· ·is the cycle where the initialization components are
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`·6· ·being dispatched.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how does that relate to this
`
`·8· ·POST object item 32?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·So that is an object this is going to
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`10· ·implement POST.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· How about item 54, the bottom
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`12· ·right of ROM 10, power-on self-test loader module?
`
`13· ·What do you understand that to be?
`
`14· · · · · · · And while you're flipping through, I do
`
`15· ·see a reference to it in column six, line 51.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·So, POST Loader handles all the hardware
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`17· ·generated resets and software generated resets after
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`18· ·being processed by shut-down handle.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Then it also says,
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`20· · · · · · · · · "The primary responsibility of this
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`21· · · · · · · · · module is to configure enough
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`22· · · · · · · · · system to gain two megabytes of
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`23· · · · · · · · · DRAM."
`
`24· · · · · · · Right?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·That is one of the responsibilities.
`
`13
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So there's a few responsibilities
`
`·2· ·of this POST Loader component?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·What's the relationship between DRAM and
`
`·5· ·system memory?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·So, which system memory are you
`
`·7· ·referring to?
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Good question.· Let me ask you a
`
`·9· ·different one.
`
`10· · · · · · · Let's go back to column three, lines 12
`
`11· ·to 21.· Take a moment and read that to yourself and
`
`12· ·let me know when you're done.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·And do you agree that DRAM is something
`
`15· ·that implements something called shadow RAM?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·And based on your experience and your
`
`18· ·review of the Shipman patent, what is shadow RAM?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· ·The components in ROM are going to be
`
`20· ·decompressed before storing to the shadow RAM.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·What's the advantage of that?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·In order to execute the component, you
`
`23· ·cannot execute it in a compressed form.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Is that the only advantage of using
`
`25· ·something like shadow RAM?
`
`14
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·There may be other advantages, but --
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·How about access time?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·For the shadow RAM?
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Uh-huh.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·The access time is -- is different
`
`·6· ·between different types of memories.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Have you encountered shadow RAM in your
`
`·8· ·experience?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·This is not a new technology.· So, this
`
`10· ·is a DRAM.· So, DRAMs are very commonly used.
`
`11· · · · · · · And as I said, one of my areas of
`
`12· ·research is memory design.· And I work on DRAM --
`
`13· ·different DRAM technologies, including CMOS-based
`
`14· ·DRAM and then including interface technology such as
`
`15· ·DTR technologies.
`
`16· · · · · · · So, I don't believe shadow RAM is a new
`
`17· ·technology.· This is a term that could be used to
`
`18· ·serve the purpose in Shipman specifically.· So this
`
`19· ·is -- this is not a new type of DRAM.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·When was the first time you encountered
`
`21· ·the term "shadow RAM" in your experience?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·I don't recall.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you understand that to be part of
`
`24· ·something called "system memory"?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·I have to look into Shipman to make sure
`
`15
`
`
`
`·1· ·it has been referred to as system memory.· I do not
`
`·2· ·recall.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's take a look.
`
`·4· · · · · · · Column three line 50 mentions,
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · "System random access memory
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · RAM 22."
`
`·7· · · · · · · Do you see that reference?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·And Shipman also references DRAM as item
`
`10· ·22, if you go back to --
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·-- column three, line 15, right?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·So those two seem to be used
`
`15· ·interchangeably?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·In Shipman.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·In Shipman?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So, going back to the POST Loader
`
`20· ·component, it says that,
`
`21· · · · · · · · · "The primary responsibility of the
`
`22· · · · · · · · · module is to configure enough of
`
`23· · · · · · · · · the system to gain two megabytes of
`
`24· · · · · · · · · DRAM."
`
`25· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·What does that mean -- what does that
`
`·3· ·phrase mean to you?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·That it needs to make ready to use a
`
`·5· ·two-megabyte storage from that DRAM.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·It's initializing it?· Is that what it's
`
`·7· ·referring to?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Allocating it.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·Allocating?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·(No audible response.)
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Is there a difference between allocating
`
`12· ·and initializing?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·And what's the difference?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Initialization of a memory means it will
`
`16· ·be ready to use, but allocation means it would be
`
`17· ·used by a certain user or system or component.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And does memory have to be
`
`19· ·initialized before it's used?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the POST Loader configures the
`
`22· ·DRAM, which may mean allocating memory for the DRAM,
`
`23· ·right?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·I have to look into the details of the
`
`25· ·patent.· Because "configure" is a general term
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· ·again.· So I have to make sure if Shipman had the
`
`·2· ·intention of using the general term or he's using
`
`·3· ·"configuration" as a certain set of steps.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Later it says,
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · "The POST Loader activates the
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · decompression dispatcher."
`
`·7· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· If we go back to Figure 1 on page
`
`10· ·two, you see the decompression dispatcher is item 52
`
`11· ·stored in the ROM 10?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·And based on your review of Shipman,
`
`14· ·what does the decompression dispatcher 52 do?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·So would you refer to column seven,
`
`16· ·paragraph -- sentence 13.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · ·"The compression dispatcher
`
`19· · · · · · · · · component dispatches a component
`
`20· · · · · · · · · into memory."
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So it dispatches components --
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·-- right?
`
`24· · · · · · · And these components are stored in
`
`25· ·ROM 10 in Figure 1?
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And, let's see.· Let's take a
`
`·3· ·look at item 36 in ROM 10, video BIOS option ROM.
`
`·4· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Item 36 --
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·36, upper right?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you understand that to be a BIOS
`
`·9· ·component?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·Video BIOS option.· Yes, I do.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And what is an option ROM?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·I have to look at the definition of
`
`13· ·Shipman.· You want me --
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.· Did you -- when you analyzed
`
`15· ·Shipman did you develop a meaning for "option ROM"?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I did, but I do not recall.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· That's fine.
`
`18· · · · · · · Feel free to take a look at Shipman.
`
`19· ·Although I did read it, and I didn't see a detailed
`
`20· ·explanation of it.
`
`21· · · · · · · So I was hoping if you could shed some
`
`22· ·light on your understanding of "option ROM" based on
`
`23· ·your experience and your review of Shipman?
`
`24· · · · · · · Well, before I ask you -- I can strike
`
`25· ·that last question.
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · Before I ask you about how Shipman uses
`
`·2· ·option ROM, do you know what an option ROM is?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·In general?
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·In general.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·That's a term that doesn't have a
`
`·6· ·general meaning.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·It does not have a general meaning to
`
`·8· ·you?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Is it a term you've encountered in your
`
`11· ·experience as an engineer?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·I have seen a lot of optional related
`
`13· ·terms.· So optional ROM, then that would have made a
`
`14· ·general meaning.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·So "optional ROM" means something to
`
`16· ·you?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·But "option ROM" is something you
`
`19· ·haven't really come across in your experience?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Not as a general.· So obviously I see
`
`21· ·that in Shipman.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, what is "optional ROM" to
`
`23· ·you?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·An optional memory is not a necessary
`
`25· ·memory.· So your system may or may not have that.
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Have you encountered the term "expansion
`
`·2· ·ROM" in your experience?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·And what does that term mean to you?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·So that's -- the ones that I have seen,
`
`·6· ·the expansion memories including expansion ROMs are
`
`·7· ·the ones that are going to be for the memory size
`
`·8· ·expansion.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And when is -- when would a
`
`10· ·system use that.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·In the versions that I have seen --
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Uh-huh.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·It is when the system needs to be
`
`14· ·operated in terms of the size of the memory.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Have you heard of the term
`
`16· ·"expansion BIOS"?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·I do not recall.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·You don't recall.
`
`19· · · · · · · Okay.· So, going back to the disclosures
`
`20· ·of Shipman, did you develop any understanding of
`
`21· ·what a video BIOS option ROM is?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·I do remember that when I looked at
`
`23· ·this, I interpreted it as the option of having video
`
`24· ·in addition to -- to image.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Would most computer systems have video
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·at the time of invention?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·I do not know.· I have to study that.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, isn't Shipman directed to a
`
`·4· ·computer system that should be able to support
`
`·5· ·video?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·I do not have the answer.· I have to
`
`·7· ·spend time on this.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's look at item 44,
`
`·9· ·configuration utility.
`
`10· · · · · · · Do you understand the configuration
`
`11· ·utility to be a BIOS module stored in ROM 10?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And have you encountered that
`
`14· ·term "configuration utility" in your experience?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· In Shipman.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·I have encountered that in Shipman.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Prior to your review of Shipman have you
`
`19· ·encountered that term "configuration utility"?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·I do not recall.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What is your understanding of a
`
`22· ·configuration utility as described in Shipman?
`
`23· · · · · · · And I can represent to you Shipman
`
`24· ·doesn't provide a detailed analysis or description
`
`25· ·of that term.· So it's something that the reader
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·would have to assume some sort of meaning.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Then I do not want to make assumptions.
`
`·3· ·Even if I could, and I'm pretty sure I have seen the
`
`·4· ·concept, but I do not recall that I have seen the
`
`·5· ·exact same term.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· That's fine.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·It doesn't look to me as something that
`
`·8· ·I have not encountered, but I do not recall.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·So in other words, you're saying you may
`
`10· ·have encountered it, but you don't recall --
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·That is right.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· There were some double negatives
`
`13· ·in your answer, so I was trying to clarify.
`
`14· · · · · · · You were involved in another IPR
`
`15· ·proceeding with respect to something called the
`
`16· ·'498 Patent; is that right?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And we just completed a
`
`19· ·deposition with respect to the '498 Patent, correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·And in the '498 Patent review that you
`
`22· ·provided, you encountered a reference called Lee?
`
`23· · · · · · · Do you recall that?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm not trying to give you a memory
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· ·test, but you reviewed the Lee reference, right?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·And Lee referenced something called a
`
`·4· ·configuration utility.
`
`·5· · · · · · · Do you recall that?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·I do not recall.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·To maybe refresh your memory, is the
`
`·8· ·storage of CMOS values something that a
`
`·9· ·configuration utility can be used for?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·I do not recall the exact term that was
`
`11· ·used in Lee.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Have you heard of the term "setup
`
`13· ·utility" in your experience in the context of BIOS?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you think that -- based on
`
`16· ·your experience, is that something that is
`
`17· ·equivalent to a configuration utility?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·Again, since I do not know the
`
`19· ·definition before looking at the detail, so I do not
`
`20· ·want to necessarily equalize them, because these are
`
`21· ·general terms.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· That's fine.· Turning back to
`
`23· ·Figure 1 on page two, you see the ROM 10 at the top,
`
`24· ·correct?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·And somewhere in the middle of the page
`
`·2· ·you see a bidirectional arrow with the -- with the
`
`·3· ·words "Peripheral Component Interconnect (PCI)
`
`·4· ·Bus 16."
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you know what a PCI bus is?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·PCI bus is an interface standard.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When was the first time you
`
`·9· ·encountered a PCI bus in your experience?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·I do not remember.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Are you familiar with PCI?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall when you gained that
`
`14· ·familiarity?
`
`15· · · · · · · Was it before 2000 or after 2000?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I do not remember.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Did you gain --
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I do remember when was the last time I
`
`19· ·looked at --
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· When was that?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·It was in my EE577B course, VLSI
`
`22· ·design -- VLSI system design in fall 2015.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·But you don't recall encountering PCI --
`
`24· ·a specific moment when you encountered PCI prior to
`
`25· ·that?
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What do you -- what is your
`
`·3· ·understanding of PCI?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·PCI is standard for bus.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·And what is it used for?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·It's to define the bus connection
`
`·7· ·between different components.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·What kind of components?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·In general a system.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·A system?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Specifically what kind of system
`
`13· ·components?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·I don't think of a certain kind.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, you see this -- in Figure 1 it's a
`
`16· ·bidirectional arrow looking like it's going off the
`
`17· ·page, right?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·And does that signal to you that there
`
`20· ·could be PCI devices coupled to this PCI bus?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And is that how a person of
`
`23· ·ordinary skill in the art would understand Figure 1?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you know of any examples of PCI
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·devices that could be coupled to a PCI bus based on
`
`·2· ·your experience?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·It could be in general different
`
`·4· ·peripherals.· Any peripheral that understands the
`
`·5· ·standard, they must have it implemented in that
`
`·6· ·system.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What are some examples of these
`
`·8· ·peripherals?
`
`·9· · · · · · · And if you don't recall that's fine.
`
`10· ·Based on your experience.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· ·I do not recall.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·So you can't name any PCI peripherals
`
`13· ·off the top of your head?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's look at your declaration,
`
`16· ·paragraph three, the last sentence, you state,
`
`17· · · · · · · · · "Specifically Shipman does not
`
`18· · · · · · · · · enable BIOS modules on any
`
`19· · · · · · · · · peripheral memory devices."
`
`20· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·What do you mean when you say "enable"?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·I mean the process that Shipman went
`
`24· ·through for these modules have to be done inside the
`
`25· ·system itself, not the peripherals.
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · Shipman doesn't teach how this process
`
`·2· ·could be done if it was on any of the peripheral
`
`·3· ·memory devices.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But didn't you just disclose
`
`·5· ·that -- or didn't you just testify that peripheral
`
`·6· ·devices can be coupled to the PCI bus?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·I did.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·So is it possible that those devices can
`
`·9· ·be used to store BIOS modules?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·I do not see that in Shipman.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Did you consider that?· Did you consider
`
`12· ·PCI when you made statement -- the statements in
`
`13· ·paragraph three?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·I did consider based on the Shipman
`
`15· ·teaching, and I do not see that as being possible.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·I don't think that answers my question.
`
`17· · · · · · · Did you consider PCI when you drafted
`
`18· ·the language in paragraph three in your declaration?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you are testifying you don't
`
`21· ·know what -- you can't name a single peripheral
`
`22· ·device that's PCI compliant, can you?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·I cannot.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Is there any reason why you've decided
`
`25· ·not to look into the PCI standard to evaluate
`
`28
`
`
`
`·1· ·whether a PCI device can be coupled to a PCI bus?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·I do not need to look at the type of the
`
`·3· ·device or the name of the device to find out if this
`
`·4· ·is doable or not.· Because I know about PCI
`
`·5· ·standard.
`
`·6· · · · · · · So you want me to give you an example of
`
`·7· ·a PCI device.· But regardless of that example, PCI,
`
`·8· ·based on the teaching of the Shipman work, cannot be
`
`·9· ·able to do what the intention of the Shipman is.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you're making that statement
`
`11· ·without knowing of a single PCI device?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·I did not say that I did not know. I
`
`13· ·said I do not want to refer to any example.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.· But doesn't Shipman teach the
`
`15· ·ability to connect PCI devices to its system?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Shipman does teach connecting the PCI
`
`17· ·devices.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, I'm going to hand you a document.
`
`21· ·This is --
`
`22· · · · · · · Well, before I do that, did you consider
`
`23· ·the declaration of Mr. Perla when forming your
`
`24· ·opinions?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`29
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, did you also consider Harmer?
`
`·2· · · · · · · MR. ST. PETER:· I'm sorry.· I don't have
`
`·3· ·it either.
`
`·4· · · · · · · MR. GANTI:· That's fine.· I can do this
`
`·5· ·another way.
`
`·6· ·BY MR. GANTI:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, did you consider the teachings of
`
`·8· ·Harmer?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, correct.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So let's take a look at the
`
`11· ·Harmer reference.
`
`12· · · · · · · Let's take a look at column one, lines
`
`13· ·39 to 47 or actually down to 50.· Take a moment,
`
`14· ·read that to yourself.
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·I'm sorry.· Which --
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·So this is the Harmer reference.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Uh-huh.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Exhibit 1003, column one, lines 39 to
`
`19· ·50.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does this inform you on the
`
`22· ·abilities of the PCI bus?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·You mean on the analytics?
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·At least some.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`30
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· ·Does this tell you about what the PCI
`
`·2· ·bus is capable of?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And a peripheral device on a PCI
`
`·5· ·bus would have something called an expansion ROM,
`
`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·So, if you turn to Shipman Figure 1,
`
`·9· ·there's a PCI bus, correct?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·And it could support PCI devices,
`
`12· ·correct?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·And those PCI devices would have
`
`15· ·expansion ROMs, correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·They could.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you consider that when
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`18· ·forming your opinion in paragraph three of your
`
`19· ·expert declaration?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·You did.
`
`22· · · · · · · And how come -- how did you conclude
`
`23· ·that Shipman does not enable BIOS modules on any
`
`24· ·peripheral memory devices?
`
`25· · · · · · · How do you reconcile the two?
`
`31
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· ·Because I looked at the teaching of
`
`·2· ·Shipman, and then I believe it cannot be implemented
`
`·3· ·on the peripheral devices.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's take a look at one
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`·5· ·more document.· This is a big one.
`
`·6· · · · · · · The court reporter is going to hand you
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`·7· ·a document with the label Exhibit 1008 with the
`
`·8· ·title "PCI Local Bus Specification?"
`
`·9· · · · · · · (Whereupon the document referred
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`10· · · · · · · to was marked Exhibit 1008 by the
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`11· · · · · · · Certified Shorthand Reporter and
`
`12· · · · · · · is attached hereto.)
`
`13· ·BY MR. GANTI:
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`14· · · · ·Q.· ·Will you take a moment to flip through
`
`15· ·it and let me know if this is a document you
`
`16· ·considered in preparing your declaration.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·You did consider this document?
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`19· · · · ·A.· ·I have looked at PCI many times before.
`
`20· ·They are standard.· So their specifications are not
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`21· ·just limited to this patent.
`
`22· · ·
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