·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· ·-------------------------------:
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`·4· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., :
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`·5· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,· ·:
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`·6· ·INC., AND APPLE INC.,· · · · · :
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`·7· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · :· Case Nos.:
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`·8· · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · :· IPR2015-01444
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`·9· ·IXI IP, LLC,· · · · · · · · · ·:
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`10· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · :
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`11· ·-------------------------------:
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · Videotaped Deposition of SAYFE KIAEI, PH.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`16· · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, March 16, 2016
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · · 10:14 a.m.
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22· ·Job No. BO-078411
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`23· ·Pages 1 - 119
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`24· ·Reported by:· Robert M. Jakupciak, RPR
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`IXI 2303
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`
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· ·-------------------------------:
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`·4· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., :
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`·5· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,· ·:
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`·6· ·INC., AND APPLE INC.,· · · · · :
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`·7· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · :· Case Nos.:
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`·8· · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · :· IPR2015-01444
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`·9· ·IXI IP, LLC,· · · · · · · · · ·:
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`10· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · :
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`11· ·-------------------------------:
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · Videotaped Deposition of SAYFE KIAEI, PH.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`16· · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, March 16, 2016
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · · 10:14 a.m.
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22· ·Job No. BO-078411
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`23· ·Pages 1 - 119
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`24· ·Reported by:· Robert M. Jakupciak, RPR
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`IXI 2303
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`·1
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`·2· · · · · · ·Deposition of SAYFE KIAEI, PH.D, held at
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`·3· ·the offices of:
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`·4· · · · · · ·Fish & Richardson
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`·5· · · · · · ·1425 K Street, N.W.
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`·6· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20005
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · ·Pursuant to Notice, before Robert Michael
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`·9· ·Jakupciak, RPR, a Notary Public in and for the
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`10· ·District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of
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`11· ·the respective parties:
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`12
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`14
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2· ·On behalf of the Petitioner:
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`·3· · · · ·INDRANIL MUKERJI, ESQUIRE
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`·4· · · · ·Fish & Richardson, P.C.
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`·5· · · · ·1425 K Street, N.W.
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`·6· · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20005
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`·7· · · · ·(202) 626-7762
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`·8· · · · ·mukerji@fr.com
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`·9· ·and
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`10· · · · ·KEVIN GREENE, ESQUIRE
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`11· · · · ·JEREMY MONALDO, ESQUIRE
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`12· · · · ·Fish & Richardson, P.C.
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`13· · · · ·3200 RBC Plaza
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`14· · · · ·60 South Sixth Street
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`15· · · · ·Minneapolis, Minnesota· 55402
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`16· · · · ·(202) 783-5070
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`17
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`·1· · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd.)
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`·2· ·On behalf of the Patent Owner:
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`·3· · · · ·GEORGE S. HAIGHT, ESQUIRE
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`·4· · · · ·GRIFFIN N. MESMER, ESQUIRE
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`·5· · · · ·Pepper Hamilton, LLP
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`·6· · · · ·125 High Street
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`·7· · · · ·Boston, Massachusetts· 02110
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`·8· · · · ·(617) 204-5100
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`·9· · · · ·haightg@pepperlaw.com
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`10· · · · ·mesmerg@pepperlaw.com
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16· ·Also Present:· Videographer, David Cooper
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`17
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`18
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`23
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`24
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`·1· · · · · · · · · C· O· N· T· E· N· T S
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`·2· ·THE WITNESS:· SAYFE KIAEI, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE NO.
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`·4· · · · By Mr. Haight· · · · · · · · · · · · · 7
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·9· ·EXHIBIT NO.· · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · PAGE NO.
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`10· ·Exhibit 1444-1· · Notice of Deposition· · · ·8
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`11· ·Exhibit 1444-2· · Curriculum Vitae of· · · ·10
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`12· · · · · · · · · · ·Sayfe Kiaei, Ph.D.
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`13· ·Exhibit 1444-3· · Declaration of· · · · · · 11
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`14· · · · · · · · · · ·Sayfe Kiaei, Ph.D.
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`15· ·Exhibit 1444-4· · Patent No. 7,039,033 B2· ·14
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`16· ·Exhibit 1444-5· · Patent Application No.· · 52
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`17· · · · · · · · · · ·WO 01/76154 A2
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21· ·(Exhibits attached to transcript.)
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· ·Whereupon,
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`·3· · · · · · ·VIDEOGRAPHER:· Here begins video disk
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`·4· ·number one in the video deposition of Sayfe Kiaei,
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`·5· ·Ph.D., in the matter of Samsung Electronics Company,
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`·6· ·LTD, Samsung Electronics America, Inc. and Apple
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`·7· ·Inc. versus IXI IP, LLC, in the United States Patent
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`·8· ·and Trademark Office, Before the Patent Trial and
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`·9· ·Appeal Board.· Case Number IPR2015-01444.
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`10· · · · · · ·Today is Wednesday, March 16, 2016.· The
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`11· ·time on the video monitor is 10:14:23 a.m.· We are
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`12· ·now on the record.· My name is David Cooper.· I'm
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`13· ·the certified legal video specialist with DTI Court
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`14· ·Reporting Solutions, 21 Church Street, Suite 150,
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`15· ·Rockville, Maryland, 20850.
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`16· · · · · · ·This video deposition is taking place at
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`17· ·Fish & Richardson, P.C. in the Dupont Conference
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`18· ·Room, located at 1425 K Street, Northwest,
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`19· ·Washington, D.C., 20005.
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`20· · · · · · ·Would counsel and all present please
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`21· ·introduce themselves and who they present.
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`22· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· Indranil Mukerji, Kevin
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`23· ·Greene, and Jeremy Monaldo, of Fish & Richardson,
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`24· ·representing the Petitioners Apple and Samsung, as
`
`
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`·1· ·well as the witness here today.
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`·2· · · · · · ·MR. HAIGHT:· George Haight, of Pepper
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`·3· ·Hamilton.· With me also from Pepper Hamilton is
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`·4· ·Griffin Mesmer, on behalf of Patent Owner IXI IP.
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`·5· · · · · · ·VIDEOGRAPHER:· The court reporter, Robert
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`·6· ·Jakupciak of DTI Court Reporting Solutions, will now
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`·7· ·swear in the witness.
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`·8· ·Whereupon,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · SAYFE KIAEI, PH.D,
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`10· ·called as a witness, and having been first duly
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`11· ·sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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`12· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
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`13· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`14· · · · Q· · Good morning, Dr. Kiaei.
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`15· · · · A· · Good morning, counsel.
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`16· · · · Q· · Thank you for coming back today.
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`17· · · · A· · Thank you for your time as well.
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`18· · · · Q· · Yesterday we had a long conversation
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`19· ·related to a separate IPR.· Is it okay if we skip
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`20· ·over the rules for the deposition?· Are you aware of
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`21· ·how the proceeding will go today?
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`22· · · · A· · Yes, I am aware of how the proceeding will
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`23· ·go today.
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`24· · · · Q· · Again I will just remind you if any part
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`
`
`·1· ·of my question is unclear, let me know.· If you do
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`·2· ·provide an answer, then I will assume that you did
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`·3· ·understand the question.· Is that fair?
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`·4· · · · A· · Thank you, counsel.· Yes, it is.
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`·5· · · · Q· · Thank you.· Is there any reason this
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`·6· ·morning or today that you are not able to give
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`·7· ·truthful and honest testimony?
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`·8· · · · A· · No, there is not, counsel.
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`·9· · · · Q· · I'm going to hand you what will be marked
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`10· ·as Exhibit 1444-1.
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`11· · · · · · · (1444 Exhibit Number 1
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`12· · · · · · · was marked for identification.)
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`13· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`14· · · · Q· · Do you recognize what's been handed to you
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`15· ·as Exhibit 1444-1?
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`16· · · · A· · Yes.· It says 1444-1.
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`17· · · · Q· · And you recognize this as a Notice of
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`18· ·Deposition of Sayfe Kiaei?
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`19· · · · A· · Yes.· It is a notice of deposition for me,
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`20· ·and my first name is misspelled on page 1.
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`21· · · · Q· · Oh, I apologize.
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`22· · · · A· · That's quite all right.· It says
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`23· ·S-A-F-Y-E.· It should be S-A-Y-F-E.
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`24· · · · Q· · I apologize for that.
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`
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`·1· · · · A· · It took me a while to see it as well.
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`·2· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· You showed up.· It's all
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`·3· ·good.
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`·4· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`·5· · · · Q· · And is it your understanding that you are
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`·6· ·here today to provide testimony in Case Number
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`·7· ·IPR2015-001444?
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`·8· · · · A· · I'm here to provide -- I'm here -- yes,
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`·9· ·that is.
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`10· · · · Q· · Thank you.· You can set that aside.
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`11· ·Yesterday we talked a little bit about your
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`12· ·preparation for all of these IPRs, so we won't
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`13· ·repeat that whole series, but I will ask you did you
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`14· ·do anything to prepare for today's deposition after
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`15· ·the close of yesterday's deposition?
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`16· · · · A· · Yes.· I went and reviewed my declaration
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`17· ·and the relevant prior art that was here.
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`18· · · · Q· · Okay.· Do you recall off the top of your
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`19· ·head what that prior art was that you reviewed last
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`20· ·night?
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`21· · · · A· · No.· I briefly skimmed through Marchand
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`22· ·and a couple other references that you provided.
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`23· · · · Q· · Did you meet with counsel after the
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`24· ·deposition last night?
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`
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`·1· · · · A· · Yes, I did meet with counsel after the
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`·2· ·deposition.
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`·3· · · · Q· · How long was that meeting?
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`·4· · · · A· · I don't remember.· Off and on maybe 10, 15
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`·5· ·minutes, plus/minus before I left.
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`·6· · · · Q· · Do you recall who you met with?
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`·7· · · · A· · Yes.· The three counsels in here, plus Mr.
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`·8· ·Yoon, who is not here.
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`·9· · · · Q· · I'm going to hand you what will be marked
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`10· ·as Exhibit 1444-2.
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`11· · · · · · · (1444 Exhibit Number 2
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`12· · · · · · · was marked for identification.)
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`13· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· Mr. Haight, I know these are
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`14· ·each separate depositions.· I don't know if you are
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`15· ·planning on reviewing the background stuff.· We
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`16· ·would be okay with you using the background stuff
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`17· ·from yesterday's deposition.
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`18· · · · · · ·MR. HAIGHT:· Thank you.· It's just
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`19· ·housekeeping.· I appreciate that, though, counsel.
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`20· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`21· · · · Q· · Doctor, do you recognize what's been
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`22· ·handed to you as 1444-2?
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`23· · · · A· · Yes, I do.· It's a copy of my resume' when
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`24· ·I sent it to the Fish & Richardson counsel roughly
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`
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`·1· ·9, 10 months ago.
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`·2· · · · Q· · And to your knowledge, is this the same
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`·3· ·resume' that was discussed in yesterday's
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`·4· ·deposition?
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`·5· · · · A· · Yes.· It is the same resume' as yesterday.
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`·6· · · · Q· · And any of the updates that we would have
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`·7· ·talked about yesterday to your resume', that would
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`·8· ·obviously apply to this resume' as well?
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`·9· · · · A· · Yes, it would.· Yes.
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`10· · · · Q· · Okay.· You can set that aside.
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`11· · · · A· · Thank you, counsel.
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`12· · · · Q· · I'm going to hand you what is being marked
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`13· ·as Exhibit 1444-3.
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`14· · · · · · · (1444 Exhibit Number 3
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`15· · · · · · · was marked for identification.)
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`16· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`17· · · · Q· · Feel free to review the entire document,
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`18· ·but do you recognize what's been handed to in that
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`19· ·exhibit?
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`20· · · · A· · Yes.· It is my declaration for the '033
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`21· ·patent or patent 7,039,033.
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`22· · · · Q· · Are you aware of any errors or mistakes as
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`23· ·you sit here today in this declaration?
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`24· · · · A· · No, I am not.
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`·1· · · · Q· · If you wouldn't mind flipping to the last
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`·2· ·page, page 44 of Exhibit 1444-3?
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`·3· · · · A· · The last page, yes.
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`·4· · · · Q· · Yes.· Do you see a signature down at the
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`·5· ·bottom right corner?
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`·6· · · · A· · Yes, counselor.
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`·7· · · · Q· · Is that your signature?
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`·8· · · · A· · Yes, it is.
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`·9· · · · Q· · Okay.
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`10· · · · A· · Thank you.
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`11· · · · Q· · I know we talked yesterday about general
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`12· ·preparation and development of this declaration.· Do
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`13· ·you have any sense of how much time you put into
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`14· ·developing this particular declaration?
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`15· · · · A· · Not off top of my head.· Roughly the same
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`16· ·amount that I worked on the other one.· There were
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`17· ·some commonalties between them, so probably a little
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`18· ·less time.· But roughly the same amount of time that
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`19· ·we talked yesterday.
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`20· · · · Q· · Turning to page 4 and on to 5 of your
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`21· ·declaration in this proceeding, beginning with
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`22· ·paragraph 13, do you see paragraph 13?
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`23· · · · A· · Yes, counsel.
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`24· · · · Q· · And that says that you reviewed the '033
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`
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`·1· ·patent, including the claims, specification and the
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`·2· ·file history, and then you have a list of a series
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`·3· ·of other documents.· Do you see that?
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`·4· · · · A· · Yes, I do see that.
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`·5· · · · Q· · Those are all documents you reviewed in
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`·6· ·preparation of your declaration?
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`·7· · · · A· · Those are the documents I reviewed in
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`·8· ·preparation for that, yes.
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`·9· · · · Q· · Were there any other documents that you
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`10· ·recall reviewing in preparation for your -- in
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`11· ·preparing this declaration that you did not list
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`12· ·here?
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`13· · · · A· · Same as what I said yesterday.· There may
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`14· ·have been textbooks in my office here and there or
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`15· ·an article or something that was not clear, I may
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`16· ·have looked it up on the Internet.
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`17· · · · Q· · But is it fair to say that if it's not
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`18· ·listed here, you didn't rely on that in forming your
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`19· ·opinions?
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`20· · · · A· · Yes, that is correct.
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`21· · · · Q· · In paragraph 15 you discuss the level of
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`22· ·ordinary skill in the art.· Do you see that?
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`23· · · · A· · Yes, counsel.
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`24· · · · Q· · And that's the same level of skill that we
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`
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`·1· ·discussed yesterday --
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`·2· · · · A· · Yes.
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`·3· · · · Q· · -- for the 1443 IPR?
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`·4· · · · A· · I apologize.· I answered early.· Yes, it
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`·5· ·is.
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`·6· · · · Q· · I'm going to hand you what is being marked
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`·7· ·as Exhibit 1444-4.
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`·8· · · · · · · (1444 Exhibit Number 4
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`·9· · · · · · · was marked for identification.)
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`10· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
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`11· · · · Q· · Do you recognize Exhibit 1444-4?
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`12· · · · A· · Yes.
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`13· · · · Q· · What is Exhibit 1444-4?
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`14· · · · A· · Patent Number 7,039,033.
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`15· · · · Q· · And if we refer to this today, this
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`16· ·exhibit as the '033 patent, will you understand what
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`17· ·we are talking about?
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`18· · · · A· · Yes.
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`19· · · · Q· · And it's your understanding that this '033
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`20· ·patent and it's claims are the subject of challenge
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`21· ·in the petition in the 1444 IPR?
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`22· · · · A· · Yes.
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`23· · · · Q· · Do you know which claims of the '033
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`24· ·patent are being challenged in this IPR?
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`
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`·1· · · · A· · Not on top of my head.
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`·2· · · · Q· · Did you at one point in the preparation of
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`·3· ·this declaration know which claims were being
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`·4· ·challenged?
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`·5· · · · A· · I believe there was discussions on the
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`·6· ·claims that, yes, there was.
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`·7· · · · Q· · In the '033 patent it describes a gateway
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`·8· ·device that provides wireless communication between
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`·9· ·personal data networks and wide area networks.
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`10· ·Would you agree with that?
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`11· · · · A· · With a minor correction here.· I would
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`12· ·call it communications between a personal area
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`13· ·network -- you said personal data network -- and a
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`14· ·wide area network.· Maybe a little technical
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`15· ·difference.
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`16· · · · Q· · Yeah.· I misread my own outline. I
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`17· ·apologize.· A personal area network?
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`18· · · · A· · Yes.
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`19· · · · Q· · And a wide area network?
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`20· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
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`21· · · · Q· · And it's the gateway device that sort of
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`22· ·links those two; is that correct?
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`23· · · · A· · It's -- yes, it is correct.
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`24· · · · Q· · If I could have you turn to Figure 1 of
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`
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`·1· ·the '033 patent?· Figure 1 appears to be very
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`·2· ·similar to the Figure 1 that we spent a lot of time
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`·3· ·discussing yesterday.· So I'll try and go through
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`·4· ·this quickly, but there are a couple aspects I want
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`·5· ·to discuss.
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`·6· · · · · · ·The -- and I will apologize ahead of time
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`·7· ·for being repetitive.· We are talking about a
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`·8· ·different patent, so we have to sort of go through
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`·9· ·them again.
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`10· · · · · · ·We have -- well, I'll just ask it this
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`11· ·way.· What is Figure 1 depicting in the '033 patent?
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`12· · · · A· · Figure 1 is the System 100, which is a
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`13· ·high level architecture of the wireless
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`14· ·infrastructure.
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`15· · · · Q· · And in that wireless infrastructure there
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`16· ·are sort of two sides, if you will; correct?
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`17· · · · A· · Yes.
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`18· · · · Q· · There are a series of terminals 107 on the
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`19· ·right side of the gateway device; is that correct?
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`20· · · · A· · Yes, there are.
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`21· · · · Q· · And there are a series of servers and
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`22· ·Internet and carrier backbone and cellular network
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`23· ·on the left side of the gateway device 106?
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`24· · · · A· · That is correct.
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`
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`·1· · · · Q· · And the '033 patent refers to a personal
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`·2· ·area network; is that correct?
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`·3· · · · A· · Yes, it does.
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`·4· · · · Q· · What is your understanding of what a
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`·5· ·personal area network is in the context of the '033
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`·6· ·patent?
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`·7· · · · A· · The personal area network on the right
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`·8· ·side is a number of terminals 107 that are connected
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`·9· ·together by a short range radio signal.· For
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`10· ·example, that could be a Bluetooth.· And these form
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`11· ·a personal area network.· I may mistakenly call it
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`12· ·local area network in this proceeding because of the
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`13· ·fact that the previous one called it a local area
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`14· ·network, but for the purpose of what we are
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`15· ·discussing today, if I make that mistake, I mean it
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`16· ·to be personal area network.· I'll try not to make
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`17· ·that mistake.· But in case I do, it's more of a --
`
`18· · · · Q· · I understand.· In your mind is there a
`
`19· ·difference between a personal area network and a
`
`20· ·local area network?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· Objection to form.
`
`22· · · · A· · I did not go through a detailed technical
`
`23· ·differences how these two patents are
`
`24· ·differentiating them, but at a high level both of
`
`
`
`·1· ·them are Bluetooth connected and I consider them to
`
`·2· ·have same, similar features.· There may be some
`
`·3· ·differences that I did not look into.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · And when you say these two patents, are
`
`·5· ·you referring to the '532 patent we discussed
`
`·6· ·yesterday?
`
`·7· · · · A· · Yes.· Yesterday's discussions and today's
`
`·8· ·discussions, yes.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · Aside from -- in general, outside the '033
`
`10· ·patent and outside the '532, is the term "personal
`
`11· ·area network" a term of art in the field of wireless
`
`12· ·communications -- or network communications?
`
`13· · · · A· · Yes, it is.
`
`14· · · · Q· · Does it have a specific meaning?
`
`15· · · · A· · At the high level description, personal
`
`16· ·area network is a number of terminals and devices
`
`17· ·which are typically connected in either a small,
`
`18· ·short range private network, radio signals private
`
`19· ·network or a small office area private network,
`
`20· ·that's why the name personal area network comes.
`
`21· · · · Q· · And again generally, is that definition in
`
`22· ·the art different than what one would consider a LAN
`
`23· ·to be or a local area network?
`
`24· · · · A· · On top of my head I can't recite any
`
`
`
`·1· ·significant differences there at this point.· There
`
`·2· ·may be, but really I don't -- right now sitting
`
`·3· ·here, I don't see a major difference between them.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · Going back to Figure 1, that personal area
`
`·5· ·network is connected to the wide area network via a
`
`·6· ·cellular network that the gateway device is
`
`·7· ·connected to; correct?
`
`·8· · · · A· · I would say it a little differently.· The
`
`·9· ·personal area network is connected to the cellular
`
`10· ·network on the left via the gateway device 106.
`
`11· · · · Q· · And that cellular network is connected to
`
`12· ·carrier backbone 104, server 102, Internet 103, and
`
`13· ·server 101?
`
`14· · · · A· · The cellular network is connected to the
`
`15· ·Internet, server 101, server 102 and the carrier
`
`16· ·backbone 104.
`
`17· · · · Q· · And at least as this diagram shows, the
`
`18· ·cellular network is connected to the Internet 103,
`
`19· ·the server 102, and the server 101 through the
`
`20· ·carrier backbone 104; is that correct?
`
`21· · · · A· · As it is shown in this diagram, yes, the
`
`22· ·cellular network includes servers 101, 102, Internet
`
`23· ·103, and the carrier backbone 104.
`
`24· · · · Q· · I'm sorry.· You say that includes those or
`
`
`
`·1· ·is connected to?
`
`·2· · · · A· · It's connected to those.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Connected to those through the carrier
`
`·4· ·backbone 104?
`
`·5· · · · A· · In this figure it shows they are connected
`
`·6· ·together via the dotted line.· How the exact the
`
`·7· ·implementation it is, it's not discussed in the
`
`·8· ·paper.· But in general I agree with you that the
`
`·9· ·cellular network is connected to the combination of
`
`10· ·the server, Internet and the carrier backbone.· And
`
`11· ·this is the same as what I said yesterday.· This is
`
`12· ·a high level description of the system.· The details
`
`13· ·and implementations could vary depending on the
`
`14· ·architecture.
`
`15· · · · Q· · Sure.· And Figure 1 doesn't show any
`
`16· ·connections between cellular network 105 and say the
`
`17· ·Internet 103 without going through the carrier
`
`18· ·backbone, does it?
`
`19· · · · A· · It doesn't identify exactly what the
`
`20· ·boundaries of what is the cellular network, and it
`
`21· ·doesn't describe it also, the details of it on the
`
`22· ·Figure 1, but one looking at this figure the way it
`
`23· ·is depicted, it shows that the cellular network is,
`
`24· ·it's connected to the carrier backbone, to the
`
`
`
`·1· ·Internet and the server.· And again this is a one
`
`·2· ·specific architecture that they have shown in this
`
`·3· ·paper, in this patent in a very high level.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · And gateway device 106 you would agree can
`
`·5· ·connect to the Internet through that cellular
`
`·6· ·network; correct?
`
`·7· · · · A· · The way it's shown in Figure 1, yes, it is
`
`·8· ·showing that the gateway device 106 is connected to
`
`·9· ·the Internet 103 via the cellular network.
`
`10· · · · Q· · And the gateway device 106 can also
`
`11· ·communicate with that server 101 and the server 102
`
`12· ·via that cellular network; correct?
`
`13· · · · A· · In this particular architecture they have
`
`14· ·shown here, the gateway device 106 via the cellular
`
`15· ·network is connected to the servers 101 and 102.
`
`16· · · · Q· · Let's turn to Figure 5A of the '532
`
`17· ·patent.· It looks like we have some similar shading
`
`18· ·problems that we had yesterday, but I think this one
`
`19· ·might be a little bit better.
`
`20· · · · A· · Yes.· It is easier to read.
`
`21· · · · Q· · What is your understanding of what Figure
`
`22· ·5A is showing?
`
`23· · · · A· · Figure 5A is a network protocol stack.
`
`24· · · · Q· · Would a, would the network protocol stack
`
`
`
`·1· ·of Figure 5A also be known as a software
`
`·2· ·architecture or a gateway software architecture?· If
`
`·3· ·it helps, let me point you to column 6, roughly
`
`·4· ·lines 58.
`
`·5· · · · A· · Yes.· In column 6, 58, it calls it a
`
`·6· ·gateway software architecture.· My preference would
`
`·7· ·be to call it a network protocol stack, but Figure
`
`·8· ·5A in this patent is discussing what you just
`
`·9· ·mentioned, which is a gateway software architecture.
`
`10· ·I would agree with that, yes.
`
`11· · · · Q· · So would it be fair to say that Figure 5A
`
`12· ·is the network protocol stack of the gateway device
`
`13· ·106?
`
`14· · · · A· · I would agree with that, yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· · I think this will be a little easier than
`
`16· ·yesterday's exercise, but let's go through and
`
`17· ·identify the various components of Figure 5A.· Do
`
`18· ·you see elements 501, 502 and 503?
`
`19· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`20· · · · Q· · What is element 503?
`
`21· · · · A· · That is the GPRS Baseband.
`
`22· · · · Q· · And as we talked about yesterday, GPRS is
`
`23· ·a cellular protocol?
`
`24· · · · A· · It is cellular IP wireless protocol.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · And element 502, what is that?
`
`·2· · · · A· · That is the Bluetooth Baseband.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · And element 501?
`
`·4· · · · A· · That is Other Basebands.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · Would you refer to that layer of the
`
`·6· ·protocol stack that includes blocks 501, 502 and 503
`
`·7· ·as a physical layer?
`
`·8· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · What is element 504?
`
`10· · · · A· · It is, what they call it, a media
`
`11· ·abstraction layer.
`
`12· · · · Q· · Do you have an understanding of what the
`
`13· ·503 means by media abstraction layer?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· Can I get that question
`
`15· ·back?· You may have misspoke.
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · ·-· - -
`
`17· · · · · · ·(Whereupon the following portion of the
`
`18· ·testimony was repeated by the Court Reporter:
`
`19· · · · · · · ·QUESTION:· Do you have an understanding
`
`20· ·of what the 503 means by media abstraction layer?)
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · · · ·-· - -
`
`22· · · · · · ·MR. HAIGHT:· I will withdraw it because I
`
`23· ·think I misidentified the block.
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. HAIGHT:
`
`·2· · · · Q· · Do you have an understanding of what block
`
`·3· ·504, Media Abstraction Layer, means in the '033
`
`·4· ·patent?
`
`·5· · · · A· · Thank you.· What the patent defines that
`
`·6· ·is that it allows the operating system to
`
`·7· ·communicate with the baseband components in the
`
`·8· ·physical layer 501, 502 and 501.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · Are you looking at the top of column 7 of
`
`10· ·the '033 patent?
`
`11· · · · A· · Yes.· That's a general description of that
`
`12· ·in there.· And the objective of that layer is to
`
`13· ·isolate the physical layer stack from the rest of
`
`14· ·the software in the network operating stack.· That's
`
`15· ·their description of the --
`
`16· · · · Q· · Is there a reason why someone in the art
`
`17· ·would want to isolate these layers?
`
`18· · · · A· · Yes, there is.
`
`19· · · · Q· · What is your understanding of why that
`
`20· ·would be?
`
`21· · · · A· · For a number of reasons.· One is to make
`
`22· ·the software implementation and the exchange of,
`
`23· ·whether it's data or interfaces, identified in an
`
`24· ·organized form, and the protocol stack layer does
`
`
`
`·1· ·that.· The protocol network protocol stack is really
`
`·2· ·an abstract notion separating these different
`
`·3· ·layers.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·An extreme example of it would be such
`
`·5· ·that the physical layer which is handling a high
`
`·6· ·speed data coming in and out of the modem or
`
`·7· ·modulation/demodulation unit in real-time receiving
`
`·8· ·data, does not have to be bogged down with the
`
`·9· ·application layer trying to get specific application
`
`10· ·processing.· So there is a reason for doing that,
`
`11· ·identifying the protocol stack.
`
`12· · · · Q· · And turning back to Figure 5A, do you see
`
`13· ·block 403?
`
`14· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`15· · · · Q· · And you would agree that that's the
`
`16· ·operating system layer of the protocol stack?
`
`17· · · · A· · Yes.· The patent calls that a -- the
`
`18· ·acronym of that are OS (i.e., Linux, EPOC), which is
`
`19· ·the operating system, yes.
`
`20· · · · Q· · And Linux and EPOC, are those examples of
`
`21· ·operating systems?
`
`22· · · · A· · Yes, they are.· They are two examples of
`
`23· ·operating system languages.
`
`24· · · · Q· · Above the operating system layer 403 do
`
`
`
`·1· ·you see element 404C of Figure 5A?
`
`·2· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · And what is element 404C?
`
`·4· · · · A· · It's labeled as PAN Router.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · And PAN would be personal area network as
`
`·6· ·we discussed earlier; correct?
`
`·7· · · · A· · Yes.· Correct.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · Above the PAN Router element 404B, do you
`
`·9· ·see that?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`11· · · · Q· · And that's labeled as the PAN Server;
`
`12· ·correct?
`
`13· · · · A· · Yes.· That is labeled PAN Server.
`
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.· And the next layer above that is
`
`15· ·block 404A.· Do you see that?
`
`16· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`
`17· · · · Q· · And that is the PAN Application Server?
`
`18· · · · A· · Yes, counsel.
`
`19· · · · Q· · Then the top level of this protocol stack
`
`20· ·in Figure 5A, elements -- well, element 406, do you
`
`21· ·see that?
`
`22· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`23· · · · Q· · That points to two different blocks there;
`
`24· ·right?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A· · Excuse me.· Yes.· It does do that.
`
`·2· · · · Q· · And what are those two blocks?
`
`·3· · · · A· · Applications.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · They are just labeled First App and Second
`
`·5· ·App?
`
`·6· · · · A· · First App and Second App, yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · And then block 407, do you see that?
`
`·8· · · · A· · Yes, sir, I do.
`
`·9· · · · Q· · That is labeled GUI or G-U-I?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes.· That is GUI.
`
`11· · · · Q· · And that stands for graphical user
`
`12· ·interface?
`
`13· · · · A· · Yes.· That is a graphical user interface.
`
`14· · · · Q· · The layers of Figure 5A that include the
`
`15· ·PAN Application Server, the PAN Server and the PAN
`
`16· ·Router, those are all part of a network management
`
`17· ·software block; correct?
`
`18· · · · A· · Those perform network operations such as
`
`19· ·routing, server, and the application for the
`
`20· ·network.· I would characterize it as more of a
`
`21· ·combination of those perform the routing of the
`
`22· ·network and the server of the network and so forth.
`
`23· ·Would I call it a network management server?· At
`
`24· ·high level, yeah, I would not dispute that.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q· · And if I could point you to column 6 in
`
`·2· ·the '033 patent, roughly lines 59 through 64, does
`
`·3· ·that language identify the network management -- I'm
`
`·4· ·sorry.· Let me back up a step.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·Do you see a network management -- let's
`
`·6· ·turn to Figure 4 of the '033 patent.
`
`·7· · · · A· · Yes.· I have that, sir.
`
`·8· · · · Q· · And do you see block 404 labeled Network
`
`·9· ·Management Software?
`
`10· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`11· · · · Q· · Now if you could turn to column 6, lines
`
`12· ·59 to 64.· Does that identify, does that language
`
`13· ·identify network management software 404 as
`
`14· ·including the PAN router, the PAN server and the PAN
`
`15· ·application server?
`
`16· · · · A· · In line 59 to 64 it describes the network
`
`17· ·management software which includes the three
`
`18· ·software components, PAN router, which is 404C; PAN
`
`19· ·server, 404B; and an application layer, 404A.· Yes.
`
`20· ·It says that a network management server consists of
`
`21· ·these three blocks which are 404A, 404B and 404C.
`
`22· · · · Q· · If you turn to Figure 5B of the '033
`
`23· ·patent, is it your understanding that Figure 5B is
`
`24· ·depicting the structure of the PAN Router that we
`
`
`
`·1· ·identified in Figure 5A?
`
`·2· · · · A· · Yes.· Figure 5B shows the PAN Router 404C.
`
`·3· ·That's it.
`
`·4· · · · Q· · And what is your understanding of what the
`
`·5· ·PAN Router does within the context of the '033
`
`·6· ·patent?
`
`·7· · · · A· · The diagram shows in Figure 5B, as well as
`
`·8· ·what the patent describes in, related to Figure
`
`·9· ·5B -- sorry -- related to Figure 5B, which is the
`
`10· ·PAN Router 404C block, is responsible for personal
`
`11· ·area network, implementing communication primitives,
`
`12· ·IP networking, IP services and similar tasks.
`
`13· ·That's also outlined in column 7, line 13 to 15.
`
`14· · · · Q· · If you go a little bit lower, roughly
`
`15· ·around line 30 of that column 7, do you see a
`
`16· ·heading called A, heading A, PAN Router?
`
`17· · · · A· · Yes, I see it.
`
`18· · · · Q· · In that first line of that section,
`
`19· ·roughly line 32, 33, it says:· "PAN routers 404C
`
`20· ·enables a fully meshed IP based network."· Do you
`
`21· ·see that?
`
`22· · · · A· · Yes, I do.
`
`23· · · · Q· · What is your understanding of what a fully
`
`24· ·meshed IP network is?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A· · It describes that later in the
`
`·2· ·continuation of that paragraph as well, in terms of
`
`·3· ·in an embodiment of the present invention, each
`
`·4· ·terminal can leverage the existing IP protocol and
`
`·5· ·exchange data with other terminals and gain access
`
`·6· ·to the wide area network, to a wide area network.
`
`·7· · · · Q· · And that's through --
`
`·8· · · · A· · Through a PAN router, yes, 404C.· Yes.
`
`·9· ·That's their description.
`
`10· · · · Q· · Sure.· Does the term "fully meshed IP
`
`11· ·based network" have significant meaning in the field
`
`12· ·of network communication?
`
`13· · · · A· · I don't recall the exact definition of it,
`
`14· ·but my understanding here is that the PAN router
`
`15· ·404C enables exchange of IP addressed, IP protocols
`
`16· ·and so forth.
`
`17· · · · Q· · And that's what it means by fully meshed?
`
`18· · · · A· · I assume that's what they mean.· It
`
`19· ·doesn't really go into details of what fully meshed
`
`20· ·means in here, and I -- there is not a exact
`
`21· ·technical definition of it from a network
`
`22· ·terminology I would say, but one familiar with the
`
`23· ·art looking at that and looking at the rest of that
`
`24· ·paragraph would understand that that would mean that
`
`
`
`·1· ·it is performing IP exchanges, IP protocols between
`
`·2· ·the two, between the two, the devices.
`
`·3· · · · Q· · Turning back to Figure 5B, do you see it
`
`·4· ·has the software components labeled -- let me ask
`
`·5· ·you this.· Would each of these individual blocks be
`
`·6· ·referred to as software components?
`
`·7· · · · A· · In general, yes.· It is possible that it
`
`·8· ·could be a combination of software with some
`
`·9· ·real-time hardware as needed, depending on the speed
`
`10· ·of the network.· You know, if you are dealing, for
`
`11· ·example, in some very, very high-speed networks,
`
`12· ·these may have to be done in hardware.· The
`
`13· ·functionality is the same.
`
`14· · · · Q· · So for our purposes going through this
`
`15· ·diagram, I will just refer to them as components.
`
`16· ·Is that fair?
`
`17· · · · A· · That's a good assumption and I agree with
`
`18· ·that.· Thank you.
`
`19· · · · Q· · Do you see component 554 labeled DNS in
`
`20· ·Figure 5B?
`
`21· · · · A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q· · What is your understanding of what that
`
`23· ·component does within PAN router 404C?
`
`24· · · · A· · DNS primarily translates between, for
`
`
`
`·1· ·example, websites and the IP address.· You put in
`
`·2· ·WWW dot whatever that means, that has to translate
`
`·3· ·into some real IP addresses and that's what the DNS
`
`·4· ·server or DNS would do, DNS component would do.
`
`·5· · · · Q· · So it translates human readable names into
`
`·6· ·IP addresses, machine understandable?
`
`·7· · · · · · ·MR. MUKERJI:· Objection to form.
`
`·8· · · · A· · I think I already mentioned that it
`
`·9· ·translates in general services that are human
`
`10
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