UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`1
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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` BUNGIE, INC., :
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` Petitioner, :
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` v. : Case IRP2015-01264
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` WORLDS INC., : Patent 7,945,856
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` Patent Owner. :
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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` Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
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` Volume 1
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` Los Angeles, California
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` Thursday, February 11, 2016
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` 8:07 a.m.
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`Job No.: 103468
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`Pages: 1 - 182
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`Reported By: Katherine Ferguson, RPR, CSR 12332
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`IPR2015-01264, -01268, -01269, -01319, -01321, -01325
`EX. 2016
`Page 1 of 351
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`1
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` BUNGIE, INC., :
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` Petitioner, :
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` v. : Case IRP2015-01264
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` WORLDS INC., : Patent 7,945,856
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` Patent Owner. :
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
` Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`
` Volume 1
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` Los Angeles, California
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` Thursday, February 11, 2016
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` 8:07 a.m.
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`Job No.: 103468
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`Pages: 1 - 182
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`Reported By: Katherine Ferguson, RPR, CSR 12332
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC, held at the
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`offices of:
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`2
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` WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
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` 633 West 5th Avenue, Suite 1550
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` Los Angeles, California
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` 323-210-2900
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` Pursuant to notice, before Katherine Ferguson, RPR,
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`CSR in and for the State of California.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
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` ANDREW S. BROWN, ESQUIRE
`
` JAD MILLS, ESQUIRE
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` WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
`
` 701 Fifth Avenue, Suite 5100
`
` Seattle, Washington 98104
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` 206-883-2584
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` WAYNE HELGE, ESQUIRE
`
` DAVIDSON BERQUIST JACKSON & GOWDEY, LLP
`
` 8300 Greensboro Drive, Suite 500
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` McLean, Virginia 22102
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` 571-765-7708
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL ZYDA, DSC PAGE
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` By Mr. Helge 5
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`4
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` E X H I B I T S
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` (None marked.)
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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`5
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` MR. HELGE: My name is Wayne Helge appearing
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`for Worlds Inc. in Bungie v. Worlds, IPR 2015-012464 and
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`related cases and from the law firm of Davidson Berquist
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`Jackson & Gowdey.
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` MR. BROWN: Andy Brown of Wilson Sonsini
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`Goodrich & Rosati on behalf of Bungie. And with me is
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`Jad Mills, also of Wilson Sonsini.
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` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. HELGE:
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` Q Good morning, Dr. Zyda.
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` A Morning.
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` Q Would you please put your full name on the
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`record?
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` A My name is Michael Zyda. I'm a professor of
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`engineering practice at USC.
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` Q And Dr. Zyda, you prepared declarations for
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`the case that Bungie filed -- excuse me, the case that
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`Bungie filed against World?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you're here for a deposition on those
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`declarations; is that right?
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` A Yes.
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`Page 5 of 351
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Q And the case that I just identified, IPR
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`2015-01264, that's one of the cases you're here to
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`6
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`testify about?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Do you want me to go through all the numbers?
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` A No. Do I know the numbers, no.
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` MR. HELGE: Let's put on the record we have
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`six related cases and my understanding is that Dr. Zyda
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`is being provided today, February 11th, and tomorrow,
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`February 12th, 2016, for deposition on all six of these
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`cases with the understanding that the transcript for
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`both days will then be submitted in each of those six
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`cases; is that your understanding as well?
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` MR. BROWN: Yes, it is.
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` MR. HELGE: Thank you.
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`BY MR. HELGE:
`
` Q Dr. Zyda, have you given a deposition in the
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`proceeding for the patent office before?
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` A For the patent office, no. Depositions for
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`other patent cases, but for the district court.
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` Q So generally, your deposition experience is
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`with district court litigation?
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` A Right.
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` Q And not with patent office AIA trials then?
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` A Right.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`7
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` Q The rules for deposition are going to be
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`fairly consistent with what you've probably heard
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`before. We have a court reporter here. She can only
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`take one person's testimony at the time, so we have to
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`be careful not to speak over each other. If there is a
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`question that I've asked you, I will require an audible
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`response. And a nodding of the head cannot be recorded
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`by the court reporter, so I'll ask you to give a verbal
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`response, please.
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` A Okay.
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` Q Dr. Zyda, is there any reason you cannot give
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`true and accurate testimony today?
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` A No.
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` Q You're not on any medications that would
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`affect your testimony?
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` A No.
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` Q I'd like to read for you something. And this
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`is a paragraph from the Office Patent Trial Practice
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`Guide. And this is a rule for deposition before the
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`USPTO that perhaps is a little bit different or may be
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`different from depositions you've given in the past.
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`And I'll read this verbatim here.
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` "Once the cross-examination of a witness has
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`commenced and until cross-examination of the witness has
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`concluded, counsel offering the witness on direct
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`examination shall not, A, consult or confer with the
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`witness regarding the substance of the witness's
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`testimony already given or anticipated to be given
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`except for the purpose of conferring on whether to
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`assert a privilege against testifying or on how to
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`comply with a board order or, B, suggest to the witness
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`the manner in which any questions should be answered."
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` Does that paragraph make sense to you?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And so you understand that this regulation or
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`this guideline for depositions before the patent office,
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`it continues upon the commencement of our deposition
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`this morning now and it continues until we have
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`concluded probably sometime tomorrow?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And this rule restricts your ability to confer
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`with your counsel overnight while the deposition remains
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`open.
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` A I understand.
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` Q Dr. Zyda, in preparing for this deposition,
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`did you look at your declarations in the six cases
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`again?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Did you look at declarations in all six cases?
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` A Yes.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Q Did you read them thoroughly?
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` A I read them as much as one can. There's a lot
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`9
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`of duplication of wording.
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` Q When did that occur?
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` A Oh, over the last several weeks.
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` Q Had you looked at them at any time since they
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`were filed with the patent office?
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` A No.
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` Q So you filed them with the patent office, that
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`was probably mid 2015, you hadn't looked at them until
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`now prepping for this deposition; is that right?
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` A Right, yes.
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` Q And did you also review the six petitions
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`again in preparation for this deposition?
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` A Yes.
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` Q All six?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And did you also review the five
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`patents being challenged in preparation for this
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`deposition?
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` A I did not review the patents, no.
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` Q Okay. Did you review any of the prior art
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`that's being relied upon in the challenges in
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`preparation for this deposition?
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` A Yes.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`10
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` Q Did you review all of that prior art?
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` A Much of it.
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` Q If you can, as best you can from memory, tell
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`me which art you looked at again.
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` A Funkhouser 93, Funkhouser 95, Durward,
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`Schneider, Osblatt (ph).
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` Q How about the Marathon reference?
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` A Marathon.
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` Q So that's a yes?
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` A Yes. I didn't look at that one in detail
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`though.
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` Q Okay. Just for the purpose, I think, for
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`today and tomorrow, let's get the nomenclature down for
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`how we're going to refer to these patents.
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` You mentioned Funkhouser 93, which I believe
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`was Exhibit 1017 in IPR 2015-01264, and that is the
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`Funkhouser reference entitled "Adaptive Display
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`Algorithm," correct?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And Funkhouser 95, is that Exhibit 1005 from
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`the lead case?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Do you recall the title offhand?
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` A I do not. I teach that material in a class
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`that I teach every fall for the last 15 years.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Q That particular Funkhouser 95 reference?
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` A Yes.
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` Q So you've seen that reference every year for
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`11
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`the last 15 years?
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` A I reviewed the paper when it was in --
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`submitted to the conference.
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` Q And that was in 1995, correct?
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` A The conference was '95, the paper was
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`submitted probably October '94.
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` Q It was just submitted to you, correct?
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` A The paper was submitted to the program chairs
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`of the 1995 Symposium on Interactive 3D Graphics and
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`they parcelled out to people that work in that area.
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` Q Let's make sure that we have this reference
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`identified specifically because we've gone down a little
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`bit of a hole here and I want to make sure we're talking
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`about the same reference. So I'm going to hand you
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`what's been marked as Bungie Exhibit 1005. This, I can
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`represent to you, is in the lead case.
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` MR. HELGE: I believe you were fairly
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`consistent in your exhibit marking.
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` MR. BROWN: We attempted to be.
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` Q Dr. Zyda, is that the Funkhouser reference
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`you've been referring to?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And it's entitled "RING: A Client-Server
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`System for Multiuser Virtual Environments."
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` A Yes.
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` Q And this is what you're referring to as
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`12
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`Funkhouser 95?
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` A Correct.
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` Q I will try my best to use your nomenclature
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`throughout the day. My tendency is to refer to it as
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`Funkhouser, but if you have any question today or
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`tomorrow about what I'm referring to when I say
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`"Funkhouser," if I happen to forget 95, will you remind
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`me, please?
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` A Sure.
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` Q Thank you.
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` So Dr. Zyda, you said that you have taught
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`this paper in a course every year for the last 15
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`years --
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` A Yes.
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` Q -- is that right?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And so you reviewed this paper for the
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`first time when?
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` A The papers were due for this conference in
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`October of 1994. They went to the program committee I
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`think sometime late October of '94. I received this
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`paper to review in the process.
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` Q And you were on the program committee for that
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`conference?
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` A Yes. Plus, I chaired the conference.
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` Q All right. And so you reviewed this paper for
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`the first time probably in October of '94 you say; is
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`that right?
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` A Yes, around then.
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` Q And how many other people were on this program
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`committee?
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` A Probably 20. The program committee is listed
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`in the front of the proceedings.
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` Q And when you receive a paper as part of a
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`program committee, are you able to distribute it to
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`other people or do you have to keep it to yourself?
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` A You're supposed to keep it to yourself.
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` Q So you didn't share it in a class back in '94
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`then?
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` A No.
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` Q And then this paper was published, from my
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`understanding of your testimony, as part of this
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`Symposium on Interactive 3D Graphics in 1995; is that
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`right?
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` A Correct.
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` Q So this paper was included in a booklet; is
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`that right?
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` A Yes, a printed book of proceedings.
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` Q Okay. And your testimony in your declaration,
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`I believe it explains that that booklet was handed out
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`to all the committee participants; is that right?
`
` A To everyone who attended the conference.
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`There was 250 attendees in the conference received these
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`proceedings the day they arrived at the conference.
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` Q How were the booklets distributed to every
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`person at the conference?
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` A As people checked in to get their badge for
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`the conference, they were handed a bag at the
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`proceedings and a copy of the videotape that had all the
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`live demos on it.
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` Q So that was at registration?
`
` A At registration.
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` Q And did you visibility observe that process
`
`occurring?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Where were you relative to that registration
`
`area?
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` A I probably was by the registration area to say
`
`hi to everyone coming to the conference.
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` Q And so you were near the table where this
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`occurred?
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` A Yes, I organized that whole conference. I
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`raised all the money, I did all the paperwork for the
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`association for competing machinery and was the person
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`who made sure the proceedings were put together and
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`printed on time.
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` Q Was that the first instance where the
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`conference participants were able to receive this
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`document, this Funkhouser 95 document?
`
` A Yes.
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` Q And then did Funkhouser present at the
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`conference?
`
` A Yes, he did.
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` Q Did he present this paper?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Did you attend that presentation?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And do you recall what day that presentation
`
`occurred?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Okay. But sometime in that conference?
`
` A Yeah, 9th through 12th of April.
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` Q 9th through 12th of April?
`
` A 1995.
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` Q So you received this paper in October '94 is
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`your recollection?
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` A Right.
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` Q And then it was handed out to the participants
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`16
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`of the conference in 1995?
`
` A Right.
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` Q When did you start teaching this document in
`
`your courses?
`
` A Oh, wow, that's a good question. I had a
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`virtual environments class. I taught at the Naval
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`Postgraduate School and they covered the material in
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`there. And then at USC, when I got there, I had to --
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`in the very first semester I taught, I had to create
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`three classes almost immediately and one of them was
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`"network games design implementation" which is a lot of
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`the material from networking virtual environments.
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` Q And what year did you first teach at USC?
`
` A I started at USC in January of 2005.
`
` Q And was that the first time that you taught
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`the course that you had designed dealing with this
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`reference?
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` A It's the first time I had taught that course
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`at USC, but I had taught virtual environments class at
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`the Naval Postgraduate School and included this material
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`there pretty much as soon as this paper came out.
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` Q So the virtual environments class is the
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`course in which you used Funkhouser 95; is that right?
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`17
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And why did you use this reference in
`
`that course?
`
` A I had been working in the networking of
`
`virtual environments since about 1987 and I had a Ph.D.
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`student, Mike Masadonia, who was working in how do you
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`build filtering systems for large scale network for twin
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`environments and he sort of helped me put all of this
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`material together. It was right out of his
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`dissertation.
`
` Q Let's go back just a little bit in our
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`discussion and that was about preparation for the
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`deposition.
`
` A Sure.
`
` Q We had talked about your review of petitions,
`
`review of declarations, review of the patents being
`
`challenged and review of prior art. And I think we have
`
`fairly clear testimony from you on what you reviewed in
`
`preparation for this deposition among those documents.
`
` Did you review any other documents in
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`preparation for this deposition?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Who did you talk to in preparation for this
`
`deposition?
`
` A Counsel.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Q And when you say "counsel," you're referring
`
`18
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`to Mr. Brown?
`
` A Andy Brown, yes.
`
` Q Was there anybody else?
`
` A Jad.
`
` Q Is that the other attorney?
`
` A Jad Mills from Wilson Sonsini.
`
` Q Did you talk with anyone else in preparation
`
`for the deposition?
`
` A Matt Argenti.
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` Q Also with Wilson?
`
` A Yeah.
`
` Q Did you talk to any other lawyers from any
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`other law firms in preparation?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Have you talked to any other inhouse counsel
`
`for any law firms or -- excuse me, inhouse counsel for
`
`any companies?
`
` A No, not in a long time.
`
` Q What's a long time?
`
` A Well, I've been a patent expert witness since
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`2004.
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` Q So when I was talking about inhouse counsel, I
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`guess I was talking about in preparation for the
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`deposition.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`19
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` A No. Not for this company, no.
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` Q How about for Activision?
`
` A No. I know Activision's inhouse counsel is
`
`trying to get me on the phone, but I haven't answered
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`the call yet. That was supposed to happen Monday of
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`this week. I couldn't make the time. It's in a
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`different issue.
`
` Q Based on your review of your declarations and
`
`based on your review of the prior art in preparation for
`
`this deposition, did you spot any errors in your
`
`declaration?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Did you spot any areas in which you thought
`
`you could have done a better job had you done this
`
`again?
`
` A No.
`
` Q There was nothing that you wanted to
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`supplement or correct?
`
` A No.
`
` Q So your declarations, you're comfortable with
`
`them as you stand here right now?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Dr. Zyda, let's talk about virtual reality and
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`virtual environments in the 1995 timeframe.
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` A Okay.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
`
`20
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` Q You had -- well, correct me if I'm wrong,
`
`that's really the basis for your declaration; is that
`
`right?
`
` A Yes, I have a long experience in virtuality.
`
` Q And your declaration is giving testimony about
`
`what would have been known or understood by a person of
`
`ordinary skill in the art in that 1995 timeframe,
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`correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. So let's try to focus on that. If we
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`go outside of that, just please let me know.
`
` A Uh-huh.
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` Q In the 1995 timeframe, in developing virtual
`
`environments, would it be fair to characterize the
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`working arrangements based on server side, client side
`
`and network side; is that fair?
`
` A That's a broad area. Okay.
`
` Q Are there any other -- are there any other
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`regions or areas of focus that I've missed in describing
`
`the virtual environment world?
`
` A This is a big area. The technology for
`
`building interactive virtual environments in the
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`networking side is explored; client server,
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`peer-to-peer, hybrid peer-to-peer client server, the
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`whole span.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` Q And each of these pose different challenges;
`
`21
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`is that right?
`
` A They do.
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` Q Which area was your area of expertise in 1995?
`
` A 1995, I was building a large scale network
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`military virtual environment called NPS Net.
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` Q And would you characterize that -- among the
`
`categories you just listed, would you characterize that
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`as a client server?
`
` A It used the DIS architecture; distributed
`
`interactive simulation.
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` Q Distributed --
`
` A Interactive simulation. It's an IEEE 1278.1
`
`standard. I was on the architecture committee that
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`helped define the standard.
`
` Q And with Naval Postgraduate School, you were
`
`focusing on the purpose of military simulations; is that
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`right?
`
` A Yeah, military simulations, military virtual
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`environments.
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` Q Were there network limitations driving certain
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`decisions made during the design of virtual environments
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`in 1995?
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` MR. BROWN: Objection.
`
` A That's a broad question, but network
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`22
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`limitations are always there, whatever year you pick.
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` Q So let's talk about 1995.
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` Network limitations could be network speed; is
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`that right?
`
` A Speed, band width, latency, all those big
`
`issues.
`
` Q Okay. Would you agree that Funkhouser 95 was
`
`dealing with those issues?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And would you agree that there are -- were
`
`potentially client side limitations in 1995 dealing with
`
`perhaps processing power?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Processing limitations?
`
` A (Nods head.)
`
` Q And was Funkhouser 95 dealing with client side
`
`limitations as well?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And were there also server side limitations in
`
`1995?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And was Funkhouser 95 dealing with those as
`
`well?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. What sorts of limitations existed on
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`the server side in virtual environments in 1995?
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`23
`
` A Available CPU cycles.
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` Q Anything else?
`
` A Network connectivity.
`
` Q What do you mean by network -- connectivity or
`
`contactivity?
`
` A Network connectivity. I mean how many packets
`
`could be brought into the machine, into the server
`
`machine at any one time without drowning the server. It
`
`depends on the architecture of the virtual environment.
`
` Q Were servers generally possessing greater
`
`computing power than the clients in 1995?
`
` A They could. Depends what server.
`
` Q Was it common to design a virtual environment
`
`where the server had reduced computing power than the
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`clients?
`
` A No.
`
` Q It's possible, but it's not likely; is that
`
`right?
`
` A It's not likely. It could often be the same.
`
` Q Were they running the same types of CPUs
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`generally in 1995?
`
` A It was very common for -- in 1995 for work
`
`station grade machines to be used both as client and as
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`server, so it could be the same.
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
`
` Q Dr. Zyda, let's open to page 3 in this
`
`24
`
`Funkhouser reference.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q If you see the figure on the top right side --
`
` A Sure.
`
` Q Do you see this client A being shown in figure
`
`5?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And do you see clients B, C and D?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And you see a block of servers in the middle?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Was this a common architecture for a virtual
`
`environment back in 1995?
`
` A There's another earlier paper called "Brick
`
`Net" by Germender Sangwish (ph) which has a nearly
`
`identical architecture.
`
` Q So does that mean that this was a common
`
`architecture at the time?
`
` A I can think of two instances.
`
` Q This one and the Brick Net?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q With your work at -- NPS Net; is that right?
`
` A NPS Net.
`
` Q -- at NPS Net, did you use the same type of
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`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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`client server architecture?
`
` A NPS Net was a hybrid architecture.
`
` Q What does that mean?
`
` A So NPS Net was built to connect to the Defense
`
`Simulation Internet and so when you were in a local area
`
`network, all of your clients in that local area network
`
`basically communicated by a broadcast. When they wanted
`
`to communicate to other hosts at other sites, those
`
`packets would be copied from your local area network by
`
`a tunnel process that would -- basically the server
`
`process which would copy the Defense Simulation Internet
`
`to another teleprocess which would rebroadcast them onto
`
`LAN on the other side.
`
` Q So really in the situation you're describing,
`
`you would have a multitude of clients in one server each
`
`location and then those servers would be connected by
`
`the Defense --
`
` A Simulation Internet.
`
` Q Yes.
`
` A But the DSI, it would be pretty typical to
`
`have, say, 10 or 11 DSI sites online, so those tunnels
`
`would go out to 11 -- to the 11 different servers on
`
`each of the sites.
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` Q Generally one server per site though; is that
`
`right?
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`26
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` A Yes.
`
` Q And in your work with NPS Net, what was the
`
`relationship between processing power and those work
`
`stations and the server at any given site?
`
` A Well, a 1994/1995 computer, depending on the
`
`architecture, could get drowned once you got over 300
`
`entities that you were trying to update with the DSI
`
`architecture. There weren't enough cycles in the work
`
`station grade machines in '95 to process more than 250,
`
`300 at a time.
`
` Q So did those servers have greater processing
`
`power than the work stations?
`
` A I think they might -- they were the same in
`
`1995. Some of the tests from the (indecipherable) war
`
`efforts had very large servers when they were trying to
`
`take packets from the Defense Simulation Internet, put
`
`them into stothe servers that would communicate from the
`
`east coast to Europe. Those would be pretty big
`
`machines; multicore, big memory machines.
`
` Q When you say "big" and "multicore," are you
`
`talking about the number of processors and processing
`
`power?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So it wouldn't be, for example, a 486 machine
`
`as you said?
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`
`Deposition of Michael Zyda, DSC
`Conducted on February 11, 2016
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` A No.
`
` Q In your work with NPS Net, did you know the
`
`processing power of all the work stations that were
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`going to be used in a simulation?
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` A No. And it was architected so it was
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`unimportant.
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` Q What does that mean, architected?
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` A NPS Net ran at a variety of different Silicon
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`Graphics work stations from, say, the small to the
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`reality engine ones and twos and it was designed so you
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`could set it to work properly and get an engaging
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`experience at each of those levels.
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` Q Does architected -- and I apologize for
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`seeking more clarification here -- does it mean that you
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`knew, when you were going to run a simulation, that each
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`work station was capable of handling the loads and the
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`processing requirements that were going to be imposed on
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`it?
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` A The networking and computation load was pretty
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`similar. The major difference between the machines,
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`even in SGI, was the graphics capability. So some could
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`do texturing, some could not in 1995.
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` Q Were all the graphics processes handled using
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`software at that time?
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` A All? We're talking about a work station grade
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`IPR2015-01264, -01268, -01269, -01319, -
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