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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX, INC.
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case No. IPR2015-00810
` Patent No. 8,868,705
` Case Nos. IPR2015-00811
` and IPR-2015-00812
` Patent No. 8,850,009
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA
` Volume One
` Washington, D.C.
` November 12, 2015
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
`Job No. 99551
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2015
`Apple v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-00812
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`Page 1 of 252
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`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2046
`Mangrove v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-01046
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX, INC.
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case No. IPR2015-00810
` Patent No. 8,868,705
` Case Nos. IPR2015-00811
` and IPR-2015-00812
` Patent No. 8,850,009
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA
` Volume One
` Washington, D.C.
` November 12, 2015
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
`Job No. 99551
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2015
`Apple v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-00812
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`Page 1 of 252
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`Page 1 of 252
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`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2046
`Mangrove v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-01046
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`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
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`Page 2
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` November 12, 2015
` 9:00 a.m.
`
` Deposition of DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA,
`Volume One, held at the offices of Sidley
`Austin, 1501 K Street, N.W., Washington, D.C.,
`pursuant to Notice before Mary Ann Payonk,
`Nationally Certified Realtime Reporter and
`Notary Public of the District of Columbia,
`Commonwealth of Virginia, States of Maryland
`and New York.
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`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
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`APPEARANCES:
`ON BEHALF OF VIRNETX INC.:
` JOSEPH PALYS, ESQUIRE
` DANIEL ZEILBERGER, ESQUIRE
` CHETAN BANSAL, ESQUIRE
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 875 15th Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`ON BEHALF OF APPLE:
` SAMUEL DILLON, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS BROUGHAN, ESQUIRE
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
` 1501 K Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
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`DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA,
` called as a witness, having been duly
` sworn, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Yes, good morning.
` Q. Can you please state your name and
`spell it for the record.
` A. Yes. Roberto Tamassia.
`R-O-B-E-R-T-O T-A-M-A-S-S-I-A.
` Q. And, Mr. Tamassia -- or Dr. Tamassia?
` A. Yeah, Roberto, as you please.
` Q. You are here to provide
`cross-examination with respect to your direct
`testimony that you provided in some IPR matters
`involving VirnetX patents. Is that accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you submitted a
`declaration in a few matters relating to
`VirnetX patents; correct?
` A. Yes, it's correct.
` MR. PALYS: Okay. I'm going to
` hand you a copy of a document that's
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` been previously labeled Exhibit 1005,
` and it's entitled "Declaration of
` Roberto Tamassia regarding u.S. Patent
` numbers 8,868,705 and 8,850,009."
` (Exhibit No. 1005, previously marked, was
` referenced and indexed.)
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. I'll just hand this to you.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1005, sir?
` A. So scanning through it, I seem to
`recognize. I've not check all the pages. I
`trust you gave me what this is meant to be.
` Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 1005, as you can
`see on the first page, relates to the two
`patent numbers that I identified. And I'm
`going to refer to those patents today as the
`'705 and the '009 patents.
` Do you understand?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Can you turn to page 174 of
`Exhibit 1005, please. And is that your
`signature on page 174?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So this Exhibit 1005 is a
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`declaration that you provided in -- for
`IPR2015-00810. Is that accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And this exhibit is also the
`same declaration that you submitted for
`IPR2015-00811.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And Exhibit 1005 is also the same
`declaration you submitted for IPR2015-812?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And this exhibit is also the
`declaration that was submitted -- you submitted
`for IPR2015-00813; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Now, sir, have you been
`deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How many times?
` A. Once.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. Three years ago.
` Q. And was that deposition relating to
`the matter that's identified on paragraph 8 of
`your declaration?
` A. Yes.
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` Q. You mention on paragraph 8 that it
`was a software privacy case. Is that accurate?
` A. This is correct.
` Q. Was that at all a patent-related
`matter?
` A. It was not, to my recollection.
` Q. Okay. I'm sure your lawyers
`instructed you what's going to happen today.
`You went through a deposition before. I won't
`go through all the rules, but if you have any
`questions on how the process is going to take
`place today, just let me know.
` But obviously, I'm going to be asking
`you questions. You do have answer them. The
`court reporter was kind enough to remind you
`and myself to make sure we don't talk over each
`other, so if that happens, you know, we will
`just work with each other to make sure each of
`us finish your response and my answers. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right. Is there any reason why
`you cannot testify today truthfully and
`accurately?
` A. I cannot think of any such reason.
` Q. Okay, that's a good start.
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` So, sir, who retained you to provide
`an opinion for these proceedings?
` Well, let me take a step back so we
`can use the same terminology.
` I identified a number of IPR numbers,
`matter numbers, 810, 811, et cetera. Remember?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You got to verbally say it.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So I may refer to those as the 810
`matter or the 811 matter when I'm referring to
`those IPR proceedings. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Okay. So if you don't understand at
`any point, just let me know and I'll clarify.
`Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right. And in terms of your
`Exhibit 1005, I will refer to it as your
`declaration, and that's what I'm referring to
`as Exhibit 1005, okay?
` A. Sounds good.
` Q. Okay, all right.
` Now, who retained you for these
`proceedings? When I say "these proceedings," I
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`mean matters 810, 811, 812, and 813.
` A. I was retained by Sidley Austin.
` Q. Okay. And if you turn to page 1,
`paragraph 1 of your declaration, you state that
`you've been retained by counsel for Apple
`Incorporated; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And by "counsel," you mean Sidley
`Austin there; right?
` A. That's what I meant.
` Q. Okay. Have you done any other work
`for Apple other than the work you've done with
`respect to these IPR matters?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` To the extent that you do not reveal
` privileged information, you may answer.
` A. And that other work which is in the
`public record related to other patents.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. For Apple?
` A. For Apple.
` Q. So this other work that's in the
`public record related to other patents, were
`these relating to Apple patents?
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` A. No.
` Q. Relating to some party other than
`Apple; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Okay. And when you say "other work,"
`was it one instance or multiple instances?
` A. It was more than one instance.
` Q. Okay. And when was the first time
`you did other work for Apple relating to other
`patents?
` A. It was earlier this year.
` Q. This year? 2015?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how many other instances did you
`do work for Apple related to other patents?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer. And to form.
` A. As I said, I've done other work,
`which appears as declarations in the public
`record.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Now I'm asking you how many of those.
` A. My recollection is two.
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` Q. Okay. So the first one, the first
`other work that you did for Apple relating to
`other patents was sometime earlier in 2015, as
`you mentioned.
` When was the second one?
` A. It was also this year.
` Q. After the first one, I assume.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Was it recent? Was it -- let
`me strike that.
` Was it within the last six months?
` A. It was in the spring. I don't
`remember the date exactly, but I will be happy
`to look it up.
` Q. And for each of these matters, I'll
`call them --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- you mentioned that you submitted
`declarations; is that right?
` A. This is right.
` Q. Okay. What type of declaration was
`submitted?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question?
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` A. Can you explain better what you mean
`by "type"?
` Q. Right. So you submitted -- in the
`first matter, you submitted a declaration;
`correct?
` A. Are you referring to this one here?
` Q. No. You testified earlier -- we're
`talking about these other --
` A. Other.
` Q. -- matters.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And I believe you said that you
`provided a declaration in those other matters;
`is that accurate?
` A. This is accurate.
` Q. Okay. So what I'm trying to find out
`is what type of declaration did you provide in
`those other matters?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. If you understand my question now.
` A. I believe I understand better.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I'm not sure if I understand it
`completely, but in terms of form, I analyze
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`some previous work that is related to other
`patents, and I expressed what is my opinion
`about that work and about obviousness issues in
`terms of combinations.
` Q. Okay. So it was -- the declaration
`related to the validity of these other patents;
`is that accurate?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I will say that I provided technical
`opinion. I believe that this issue of validity
`and invalidity is a legal issue.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. You said these were of public
`record. So let's start with the first other
`matter.
` Was that in a litigation where you
`submitted this, or were you provided this
`declaration?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent that it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer.
` A. I provided declaration that is also
`related to a -- what is called IPR,
`inter partes review.
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`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay, okay. Thank you.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So it was another IPR matter you
`submitted a declaration; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And was the second matter that you
`worked on also related to an IPR?
` A. I believe it was.
` Q. Okay. And who were the parties
`involved in those IPRs? Let me make it easier
`for you. Sorry.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You provided an opinion regarding
`other patents, right --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- in those other -- or those IPR
`matters. Who was the patent owner of those
`other patents in those IPRs?
` A. I understand those patents were
`assigned to VirnetX --
` Q. VirnetX?
` A. -- so VirnetX could be considered the
`owner.
` Q. Did you provide opinions regarding
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`other patents to any other -- regarding -- I'll
`start over.
` Did you provide a declaration
`regarding patents owned by any other company
`other than VirnetX?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent that the
` question seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer the question.
` A. The opinions I have expressed in my
`declarations refer to patents, some of which
`are owned by VirnetX, and others do not appear
`to be owned by VirnetX.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Why do you say they don't appear to
`be owned by VirnetX?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I'm using the word "appear" because
`VirnetX was not mentioned as the assignee. But
`I don't know, you know, what is behind the --
`so I don't know what is, I should say, beyond
`the original assignment that is recorded in the
`patent.
`BY MR. PALYS:
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` Q. Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you just
`identified earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer.
` A. I'm happy to confirm the work that is
`related to my declarations for IPRs.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So my question was: Have you done
`any other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you've just identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
` A. I understand you asked me already the
`question.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right. I don't believe you answered
`it so that's why I'm asking it again.
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So the question was: Have you done
`any other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
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` A. Does your question seek to find
`privileged information?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So the question is a yes or no, and I
`don't believe there's a privilege issue here.
`And your counsel will instruct you, so I'll
`repeat the question.
` Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you
`identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: To the extent that
` this question seeks privileged
` information and that would be the only
` information it seeks, you may say no.
` To the extent that it does not seek
` privileged information, you may explain
` and say yes or no, yeah, or --
` A. So what I can say is that there may
`or may not be work which would be covered by
`confidentiality and privilege. Besides such
`work which may or may not exist, I don't
`remember having done any other work for Apple.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. With all respect, that's a pretty
`wishy-washy response so I'll ask the question
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`again.
` Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you've
`identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` To the extent that you have done
` nonprivileged work, you may describe
` that work. You may answer yes or no.
` A. I've not done any nonprivileged work.
`I cannot comment on the work I may or may have
`not done, which is privileged.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right. I'm not asking you for the --
`any content or substance of that work if you
`feel that's privileged.
` I'm just asking you for the fact, the
`nonprivileged fact of whether you've done any
`other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you've identified here today.
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent the question seeks privileged
` information. To the extent that you
` have done nonprivileged work you may say
` "yes" or "no."
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` A. I don't know how to answer with words
`different than what I've used before so I will
`again say that I've been working for Apple, and
`indeed, there are these declarations that I've
`submitted besides the current one.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay, so -- and I mean this with
`respect. I'm asking, are you refusing to
`answer that question that I -- that is pending?
`Let me repeat the question, then I'll ask you
`that.
` So again, the question is: Have you
`done any other work for Apple other than the
`matters that you just identified earlier? And
`the follow-up to that is I just need to know if
`you're refusing to answer that question.
` A. Well, I --
` MR. DILLON: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I absolutely do not
` want to refuse. I want to cooperate and
` give you the information I'm allowed to
` give you. So I feel a bit in a strange
` spot because I, you know, don't know the
` exact, you know, boundaries of privilege
` or nonprivilege.
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` MR. PALYS: Okay. And I appreciate
` that, sir.
` MR. BROUGHAN: Joe, let --
` MR. PALYS: I've got a question
` pending, then I'll get right to you.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So I appreciate that, sir. So that's
`why I've got to know if you are going to answer
`that question. Your basis for reasoning
`whether you're going to answer that or not is
`entirely up to you. I just need to know if
`you're going to answer that question.
` MR. DILLON: Objection.
` MR. PALYS: Let him answer first.
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I believe I answered to the extent I
`believe I can answer. If I were given the
`opportunity of understanding better, you know,
`what I'm allowed to say or not to say, what
`I -- you know, I -- I will be, you know, happy
`to say more.
` MR. BROUGHAN: Joe, let's take a
` break. We can confer about privilege
` and I can explain to him what's
` privileged and nonprivileged.
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` MR. PALYS: We will circle back
` after a break and revisit it.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I'll be happy
` to.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. For the other matters that you
`identified that you did work for Apple, the
`other IPR matters, did you work with a law firm
`on those?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what was the law firm?
` A. Sidley Austin.
` Q. And when did you --
` MR. BROUGHAN: I thought you were
` going to move on to a different topic,
` Joe.
` MR. PALYS: I can do my deposition
` as I want.
` MR. BROUGHAN: I mean, if you are
` going to keep asking him questions about
` this matter, he's not sure how to
` respond with privileged information. I
` want to make sure he understands the
` bounds of privilege and doesn't
` accidentally reveal information he's not
`
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` supposed to.
` MR. PALYS: I appreciate your
` concern, Tom. And I have to say I'm
` going to ask you to stop doing a
` speaking objection at this point. If
` you see my question, it's not the same
` question. So if you have an issue, make
` your objection and move on, but no more
` speaking objections.
` MR. BROUGHAN: It's not a speaking
` objection. I asked to take a break to
` confer with the witness about privilege,
` which is a perfectly permissible thing
` to do. You said no, you didn't want to
` do that.
` MR. PALYS: Can you mark the
` transcript, please? Thank you.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. So my question was, sir: For
`the other matters that you had identified that
`you did work for Apple, the IPR matters, did
`you work with a law firm? And you said yes;
`right?
` A. I did say yes.
` Q. And I -- I --
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` THE WITNESS: And now it will be --
` sorry.
` MR. PALYS: Sorry.
` THE WITNESS: I thought it would be
` a good time to take a break.
` MR. PALYS: We have been going
` about 20 minutes.
` THE WITNESS: I know, but give an
` opportunity to ask Tom to review some
` matters to actually help the next
` questions. I believe it is in our
` common interest not to get stuck.
` MR. PALYS: You can take a break if
` you want.
` (Recess taken.)
` MR. DILLON: During the break,
` counsel for Apple had a short
` conversation with Dr. Tamassia where we
` explained how to answer a question
` involving privilege without answering or
` waiving privilege.
` MR. PALYS: Okay. I appreciate
` that.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So if I may, I'm going to go back to
`
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`some of my earlier questions and hopefully we
`will get a little more clarification. Thank
`you.
` Okay, sir. Have you done any other
`work for Apple other than the matters that you
`identified earlier to me today?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent the question seeks privileged
` information. Subject to that objection,
` you may answer.
` A. I believe not.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Why do you say you believe not?
` A. Because I'm speaking out of my
`current recollection.
` Q. So there's a possibility that you
`did?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I'm telling you what I remember now.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right.
` A. Yes. So I will say no. I believe it
`is a simpler answer.
` Q. Okay. I mean, it's your response.
` A. Okay. So just let me clarify this.
`
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`No.
` Q. Okay. Sir, by your response, you
`said "no." Do you mean no to nonprivileged
`work, or privileged work?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent this question is
` seeking privileged information. Subject
` to that objection, you may answer the
` question.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question?
` A. Not exactly.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Could you say it again?
` Q. So your response of no, that you
`didn't do any other work for Apple other than
`the matters that you identified to me earlier,
`what I'd like to know is was that for all types
`of work that -- for Apple? In other words,
`I'll get to the question. I'm setting it up
`for you.
` You mentioned before that you have
`some nonprivileged public work and then
`possibly privileged work. Do you recall that
`testimony?
`
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` MR. DILLON: Objection, form,
` foundation.
` A. I did not say that I possibly had. I
`just stated something obvious, which is I may
`or may not have done additional work. It's a
`statement that, sorry, doesn't add any
`information.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. I appreciate that.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Have you ever heard of a company
`called RPX Corporation?
` A. Can you spell out the name of the
`company?
` Q. R-P-X.
` A. The second letter is P as in Peter?
` Q. Yes.
` A. And the third S as in Sam?
` Q. No, sorry, X as in x-ray.
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. I may. I don't remember right now:
`I can look it up.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you done any work for RPX
`Corporation?
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` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` privileged, to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. Can you say what "work for" means?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. I believe that term's been used
`before. What do you understand the phrase
`"work for" to mean?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. One meaning is being employed by or
`being a, you know, consultant for.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. How about even a broader
`understanding? So any type of work for -- when
`I say "work for," so have you done any type of
`work for RPX Corporation?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form, privilege to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. I don't remember.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of a company called
`Mangrove Partners?
`
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` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. Mangrove Partners?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Yes.
` A. I may have encountered, but now I
`don't remember. I don't remember precisely.
` Q. Do you remember when you may have
`encountered the name?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form.
` A. I don't remember right now. I'm --
`I'm happy to look it up.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. What would you do to look it up to
`see if you can answer that question?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form.
` A. I will do two things. First, I will
`see in the context of this deposition whether
`it is mentioned in the exhibits or my
`declaration. And if not, I will look more into
`my files and finally do a search.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you done any work for Mangrove
`Partners?
`
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` MR. DILLON: Objection, form,
` relevance.
` A. As I cannot remember the possible
`connection I may have to Mangrove Partners, I
`also cannot think now of any work I may have
`done for them. I can certainly say I was not
`employed by them. And I was not, you know,
`directly paid by them. That, I'm pretty sure.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of a gentleman by the
`name of Nathaniel August?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. August, like in the month?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Yes.
` A. I'm afraid I have to give you a
`similar answer as before, which is I don't
`remember right now.
` Q. Okay. How about a gentleman by the
`name of Ward Dietrich?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of that --
` A. Can you spell the first name?
` Q. I'll just start over with the
`
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`question.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name
`of Ward Dietrich, first name spelled W-A-R-D?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. The last name would be
`D-E-I-E-T-R-C-H, or --
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Last name is spelled D-I-E-T-R-I-C-H.
` A. Ward Dietrich? Don't remember right
`now. May or may not be.
` Q. Have you done any work for -- I'll
`start over.
` Have you done any patent-related work
`for any other entity other than Apple?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` privileged to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. I will answer by saying that I am
`myself an inventor of multiple patents, and my
`employer, Brown University, has applied for
`several patents where I am an inventor; and
`hence, I would consider my participation in the
`application as work. I'm not sure. Is that
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`the sense that you are using in your question?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Well, I mean, that answered one.
` So how about this: Have you done any
`work as a consultant that related to patents
`for any other entity other than Apple?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. So let me qualify my answer. I have
`been a consultant in the past for other
`companies, and the work I've done appeared to
`be unrelated to patents, but I do not know if
`what I was asked to work on was actually
`related.
` You can see in my CV several
`companies like Anderson Consulting or Digital
`Equipment. I don't know if what they asked me
`to work on, you know, for them was related to
`patents.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. When were you first retained by
`counsel for Apple Incorporated as an expert
`witness for these IPR matters that we're
`discussing today?
` A. At the beginning of the current year.
` Q. January 2015?
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` A. I don't remember the exact date. It
`was early this year.
` Q. When did you first start preparing
`your opinions that are reflected in your
`declaration, Exhibit 1005?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. It was early this year.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So you signed the -- your declaration
`on March 2, 2015, and that's on page 174;
`correct?
` A. Yes, correct.
` Q. Okay. So when you say you started
`work with these matters earlier this year,
`would you agree that would have been before
`March 2, 2015?
` A. Absolutely.
` Q. Okay. So when you started work, it
`couldn't have been earlier than January 1 of
`2015 based on your response; is that accurate?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. That is my recollection, but I don't
`remember exactly.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So sometime early this year, before
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`Dr.
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