Page 1
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`----------------------------------------X
`J SQUARED INC. d/b/a UNIVERSITY LOFT
`COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
` vs.
`
`SAUDER MANUFACTURING COMPANY,
`
` Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------------X
`CASE: IPR2015-00774
`CASE: IPR2015-00958
`
`Patent 8,585,136
`
`ADMINISTRATIVE PATENT JUDGES:
`Linda E. Horner
`Josiah C. Cocks
`James A. Worth
`
` TELEPHONIC MEETING
` Friday, April 1, 2016
` 3:00 P.M.
`
`Reported by: Goldy Gold, CSR, RPR
`Job No. 105768
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 1
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

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`Page 2
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`Page 3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`OBLON MCCLELLAND MAIER & NEUSTADT
` Attorneys for Petitioner
` 1940 Duke Street
` Alexandria, Virginia 22314
`BY: SCOTT MCKEOWN, ESQ.
`
`YOUNG BASILE HANLON & MACFARLANE
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 3001 West Big Beaver Road
` Troy, Michigan 48084
`BY: THOMAS YOUNG, ESQ.
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER: It
`3
`looks like we have two items to
`4
`discuss. The first is the notice in
`5
`the patent owner's request for oral
`6
`hearing that you wish to bring in
`7
`physical exhibits of two commercial
`8
`products, one made by the patent owner
`9
`and the other made by the petitioner.
`10
`Is that correct?
`11
` MR. YOUNG: That is correct.
`12 And I would be happy to support or
`13
`advocate in favor of my proposal
`14 whenever Your Honors are ready.
`15
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`16
`Please go ahead.
`17
` MR. YOUNG: Okay. I have looked
`18
`at two of the rules of Federal Rules
`19
`of Evidence, 403 and 1006, regarding
`20
`demonstrative exhibits. And it seems
`21
`to me that there are three factors
`22
`that -- three or four factors that are
`23
`involved.
`24
` One is whether or not these
`25
`chairs would be a waste of time, would
`
`12
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2 waste the Court's and the parties'
`3
`time. That, I believe, works in our
`4
`favor because if a picture is worth a
`5
`thousand words, an actual article may
`6
`be worth 10,000 words. And these will
`7
`be very, very helpful, I believe, to
`8
`the Board in achieving an even deeper
`9
`understanding of the exact same chairs
`10
`that are illustrated and described in
`11
`the various exhibits that have been
`12
`submitted by patent owner, along with
`13
`the declarations, particularly the
`14
`declaration of Mr. Bontrager; lots and
`15
`lots of pictures of these same
`16
`articles.
`17
` Whether or not they would cause
`18
`confusion, I believe, again, the
`19
`argument goes in our favor. They
`20 would avoid confusion, mistake, or
`21
`lack of information. They don't add
`22
`anything that's not in the materials
`23
`already submitted, but they certainly
`24
`bring it to light.
`25
` The third and last matter I
`
`Page 4
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`Page 5
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`believe that should be addressed is
`3
`the question of authenticity.
`4
` I can tell you with respect to
`5
`the commercial product of the
`6
`petitioner, the chair that we have and
`7
`propose to bring, was furnished to us
`8
`as a response to our discovery request
`9
`by litigation counsel for petitioner.
`10
`That was not Mr. McKeown. It was
`11 Mr. Bahret and another gentleman who
`12
`are litigation counsel in the pending
`13
`civil action. So that chair comes
`14
`directly from the petitioner.
`15
` And as far as the patent owner's
`16
`chair is concerned, again, it would
`17
`take about ten seconds to see that it
`18
`is a perfectly faithful physical
`19
`representation of what is shown in our
`20
`various exhibits.
`21
` And I will also inform you that
`22
`it is our plan to have Mr. Bontrager,
`23 who is one of the three declarants for
`24
`patent owner, attend the hearing.
`25
` And I would like to add as a
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 2
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`third issue the question of whether
`3
`there is any problem with that, of
`4
`having him come. Is that something I
`5
`need to clear with you folks in
`6
`advance, and if so, I'd like to do
`7
`that today.
`8
` But in any event, if Mr. McKeown
`9
`had any question about the
`10
`authenticity of either one of these
`11
`articles, depending on the time when
`12
`the oral argument is set by the Board,
`13
`I'd be happy to make them available to
`14
`him at his office a couple of hours in
`15
`advance or whatever, and he can take a
`16
`look at them or, of course, he can
`17
`look at them immediately in advance of
`18
`the hearing. I don't think there is
`19
`going to be any question regarding the
`20
`authenticity.
`21
` So, in summary, it appears that
`22
`the traditional considerations pretty
`23 much work in the patent owner's favor,
`24
`and I would suggest that the Board
`25 will be pleased to have these articles
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` So in our reply, we've pointed
`3
`out that there is nothing in the
`4
`record right now that compares the
`5
`patent owner's claim construction and
`6
`claims to the petitioner's chairs.
`7
` So asking to bring those in
`8
`three weeks prior to the oral hearing,
`9
`it is supplemental information. It's
`10
`entirely new evidence.
`11
` We're preparing for the hearing.
`12 And at this late date, aside from the
`13
`fact that it attempts to remedy a
`14
`deficiency in the record, it's just
`15
`highly prejudicial.
`16
` As far as the pictures that are
`17
`in the record, this is not a design
`18
`patent case. It is a utility patent.
`19
`So we also pointed that out in our
`20
`reply, that the pictures don't get you
`21
`there. If you're trying to prove
`22
`copying, you need to compare your
`23
`claims to the product. And this is
`24
`just an attempt to end around, as I
`25
`said, a deficiency in the record to
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`Page 7
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`Page 8
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`available to see them in person and
`3
`how they're constructed and how they
`4 work.
`5
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`6
`Thank you, Mr. Young.
`7
` Mr. McKeown, would you like to
`8
`respond?
`9
` MR. MCKEWON: Sure.
`10
` This is not an issue about the
`11
`Federal Rules of Evidence. This is an
`12
`issue about the Board's trial practice
`13
`rules.
`14
` The record is closed. This is
`15
`supplemental information. There's no
`16
`physical evidence in the record. This
`17 would be highly prejudicial to the
`18
`petitioner for the reason that in our
`19
`reply we've pointed out that there's
`20
`been no comparison of the petitioner's
`21
`product to the claims in this case,
`22
`because what we're talking about here
`23
`is not an infringement trial. The
`24
`only relevance this has is the
`25
`secondary consideration.
`
`Page 9
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` PROCEEDINGS
`bring the chairs to the hearing and
`basically, in essence, supplement what
`is, like I said, a hole in the record.
` As to the patent owner's chairs,
`there's claim charged in the record
`that maps the claim allegedly to these
`chairs for approving commercial
`success. We're not talking about a
`copying indicia here; we're talking
`about commercial success.
` And I'll also point out there's
`an extraordinary remedy already in the
`record that there is video in the
`record of the same chair. So if the
`pictures are worth a thousand words,
`the video's got to be worth a lot more
`than that. And I don't know that
`bringing the physical evidence to the
`hearing will do anything more than
`complicate the hearing and complicate
`our preparation at a time when the
`record is closed.
` And as I've said, we've already
`briefed these deficiencies, and it is
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 3
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

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`Page 10
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`Page 11
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`just an attempt to supplement.
`3
` So if the Board is inclined to
`4
`grant Mr. Young's request, I would
`5
`suggest that we would have to brief
`6
`the issue as an item of supplemental
`7
`information. It's not a Federal Rule
`8
`of Evidence issue.
`9
` And given that the oral hearing
`10
`is only a couple of weeks away, I
`11
`think we would have to push off the
`12
`oral hearing. So I would oppose
`13
`introduction of any of this new
`14
`evidence at this late date for the
`15
`reasons I've expressed.
`16
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`17 All right. Thank you, Mr. McKeown.
`18
` Give me just a moment. I will
`19
`confer with the Panel, and we may be
`20
`able to get you an answer right away
`21
`on this one.
`22
` MR. YOUNG: May I just make one
`23
`comment, Judge?
`24
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`25 Yes, please.
`
`Page 12
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` MR. YOUNG: If I understood
`3 Mr. McKeown correctly, he was saying
`4
`that the patent owner's chair would
`5
`not be present to fill a hole in the
`6
`record. But because the record, and
`7
`particularly Mr. Bontrager's
`8
`declaration, is quite complete in
`9
`taking the chair through a very
`10
`exhaustive analysis of the patent
`11
`claims, so what he's really saying is
`12
`that it would be duplicative. And I
`13
`guess I would have to sort of agree
`14 with him there.
`15
` But, again, I think having the
`16
`real-life physical article, as opposed
`17
`to having the Board having to go back
`18
`and look at a video and recall
`19
`elements and aspects of the physical
`20
`article from that, is still the most
`21
`efficient way to go. And I can't
`22
`imagine that bringing this article is
`23
`going to result in pushing out the
`24
`oral argument date.
`25
` This is much, much more simple a
`
`Page 13
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2 matter than Mr. McKeown is trying to
`3 make it.
`4
` MR. MCKEWON: And I'll just add
`5
`before the Panel breaks that, as I
`6
`said, video is an extraordinary
`7
`accommodation that's rarely present in
`8
`these cases. If physical evidence
`9 were desired, rather than asking for
`10
`the video, the time to have asked for
`11
`physical evidence would have been
`12
`earlier.
`13
` We're just three weeks away from
`14
`the oral hearing here, and that's what
`15 we're talking about here is just the
`16
`time to prepare.
`17
` And I'll just finally add that
`18
`this is only relevant for secondary
`19
`considerations, and we have a 102
`20
`ground in this case, so I think it's
`21
`just unnecessary complication and
`22
`expense for the petitioner to prepare
`23
`for this at this late date.
`24
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`25 Okay. Mr. Young, anything further?
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` MR. YOUNG: No. I think we've
`3
`exhausted the subject, Judge.
`4
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`5 Very good. Please hold for one
`6 moment, and I'll be right back with
`7
`you.
`8
` (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)
`9
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`10 All right. We're back. That didn't
`11
`take long.
`12
` The Panel has conferred.
`13
` We agree with Mr. McKeown that
`14
`this would be supplemental
`15
`information; that it's unusual to
`16
`first interview physical exhibits not
`17
`of record at the oral arguments.
`18
` We do have the videos of the
`19
`patent owner's chairs to view and
`20
`consider in the record, and we have
`21
`the pictures in the record of the
`22
`petitioner's chair.
`23
` We're going to proceed on the
`24
`record as it stands now. So we will
`25
`not allow those physical exhibits of
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 4
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`Page 14
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`Page 15
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`2
`chairs to be brought in for inspection
`3
`by the Panel during the oral hearing.
`4
` MR. MCKEWON: Thank you, Your
`5 Honor.
`6
` MR. YOUNG: Well understood.
`7
`Thank you.
`8
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER: We
`9 will move on to item number 2, which
`10
`was the issue of patent owner's
`11
`request to file a paper of some sort,
`12
`either motions for observations on
`13
`cross-examination or another paper in
`14
`another form, to note areas of
`15
`testimony referenced in the reply
`16
`brief.
`17
` Mr. Young, maybe you can explain
`18
`exactly what you're seeking here.
`19
` MR. YOUNG: As you know, looking
`20
`back on the order of events, after the
`21
`patent owner filed its trial book and
`22
`the declarations of the three
`23
`witnesses along with two deposition
`24
`transcripts that Mr. McKeown came here
`25
`to Michigan and deposed each of the
`
`Page 16
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`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`declarants, I cross-examined two of
`3
`the declarants, and the entire
`4
`transcripts of all three depositions
`5 were submitted by Mr. McKeown in his
`6
`reply.
`7
` Now, looking at some previous
`8
`decisions of the Board and looking at
`9
`the thorough register, what jumped out
`10
`at me was, I had no opportunity and
`11 would have no opportunity to submit
`12
`anything in writing prior to oral
`13
`argument to refute in particular the
`14
`allegation by Mr. McKeown that the
`15
`testimony -- the deposition of the
`16
`testimony of the three witnesses
`17
`constituted a -- and I will quote --
`18
`"a jumble of inconsistent testimony,"
`19
`end quote, particularly regarding a
`20
`claim construction, when my own review
`21
`of the transcripts indicated to me
`22
`that that was simply not the case.
`23 And I felt it was a simple matter of
`24
`referring the specific testimony and
`25
`to bring this to the Board's attention
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`Page 17
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`to dispose of that issue in a rather
`3
`expeditious way.
`4
` My mistake, and I'm upfront
`5
`about recognizing it, was not
`6
`following, correctly following
`7
`specific procedure in calling the
`8
`Board to ask for permission to file my
`9 motions for observation. And I
`10
`apologize for that and would request
`11
`only that I be able to do it now for
`12
`then.
`13
` The content, I think, was still
`14
`valuable in expediting the approach to
`15 what will become -- I believe can
`16
`become a rather tedious matter at oral
`17
`argument of going through this
`18
`testimony witness by witness and line
`19
`by line in the various deposition
`20
`transcripts, when it can easily be
`21
`done on paper in advance with no
`22
`prejudice to anybody.
`23
` So that was our purpose in
`24
`submitting the motions for observation
`25
`that we submitted.
`
` PROCEEDINGS
` We drew on the language of a
`previous decision by a previous Board,
`recognizing that while it was unusual
`to permit observations from counsel
`for patent owner, that it made sense
`in this particular case for two
`reasons: One, it was patent owner's
`first opportunity to reply to a new
`issue that the petitioner had raised
`in his written reply. And, second,
`that it was an expeditious way to do
`things, that it just didn't make sense
`to defer it for oral arguments. And
`so that's what was motivating us.
` Now, after Mr. McKeown objected
`to it, seemingly on a procedural
`basis, our latest proposal to the
`Board -- and we're open to suggestion
`on this -- we're trying to help the
`Board, not hinder matters and not slow
`things down, but rather to make life
`as easy and straightforward as
`possible for all concerned.
` We would propose to submit as a
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
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`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 5
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

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`Page 18
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`Page 19
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`substitute for the observations a
`3
`simple listing of the deposition
`4
`transcript portions that are relevant
`5
`to this particular issue or the issues
`6
`that we have raised. It would be a
`7
`short version and a non-argumentative
`8
`version of what we have proposed in
`9
`our motions for observation.
`10
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`11 Okay. Mr. Young, thank you for that
`12
`explanation.
`13
` Mr. McKeown, the Board has in
`14
`the past on several occasions allowed
`15
`such a non-argumentative list in cases
`16
`such as this, where patent owner has
`17
`not had an opportunity to, for lack of
`18
`a better word, do a redirect of the
`19 witness.
`20
` Do you have a -- let me hear
`21 what your position is on something
`22
`like what patent owner is proposing.
`23
` MR. MCKEWON: Yes.
`24
` First, I think Mr. Young is
`25 mistaken when he said he did a
`
`Page 20
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` PROCEEDINGS
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`cross-examination. He did a redirect
`3
`of his witnesses and had the
`4
`opportunity to redirect all three of
`5
`them. So there's no cross-examination
`6
`at issue here.
`7
` In terms of what the Board has
`8
`done previously, and specifically with
`9
`respect to the cases that were cited
`10
`and the e-mails to the Board, neither
`11
`one of those are on point.
`12
` The one case that was mentioned,
`13
`complete deposition transcripts, that
`14 was submitted. So the Board
`15
`authorized a complete transcript to be
`16
`submitted.
`17
` And the second case, it was an
`18
`issue of -- it was argued that the
`19
`petitioner was making new arguments in
`20
`their reply. So that the Board
`21
`authorized a sort of index, saying,
`22
`"So, okay, so we can understand your
`23
`position. Give us a sort of index of
`24 what you think the new arguments are."
`25
` This is neither of those cases.
`
`Page 21
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`This is just an attempt to get the
`3
`last word. And, certainly, every
`4
`patentee would love to help out the
`5
`Board see their position by getting
`6
`the last word.
`7
` Mr. Young is invited to discuss
`8
`at the oral hearing all of these
`9
`alleged mischaracterizations and spend
`10
`as much time on them as he would like.
`11
`These are not lengthy deposition
`12
`transcripts. I don't believe any of
`13
`these three depositions lasted longer
`14
`than three hours, so I don't think the
`15
`Board will have a difficult time
`16
`getting through any of these.
`17
` And I would just mention, the
`18
`burden here in this proceeding is on
`19
`the petitioner. So asking for the
`20
`last word and the last filing in the
`21
`record -- certainly every patentee
`22 would love to come in after the
`23
`petitioner reply and file an index of
`24 what they think are arguments that are
`25
`helpful to their position, but we can
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`set that precedent here.
`3
` Again, this is highly
`4
`prejudicial to the petitioner at a
`5
`time when we're preparing for the oral
`6
`hearing, and I would encourage
`7 Mr. Young to spend as much time as he
`8 would like at the oral hearing
`9
`discussing these issues. In fact,
`10
`there's a PTAB case that distinguishes
`11
`the cases that he's cited for that
`12
`very reason, which is you have plenty
`13
`of opportunity at the oral hearing to
`14
`bring up whatever you would like to in
`15
`the record, so I think that is the
`16
`natural solution to this issue.
`17
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`18 All right. Thank you, Mr. McKeown.
`19
` I don't think there is any
`20
`specific case directly on point
`21
`because every case seems to turn on
`22
`the discussion of the Panel and the
`23
`specific facts that present themselves
`24
`to the Panel in each case. So I don't
`25
`feel compelled by any particular
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 6
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`Page 22
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`Page 23
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`2
`precedent to go one way or the other
`3
`on this.
`4
` I think Mr. McKeown raises a
`5
`good point that these deposition
`6
`transcripts are fairly brief and that
`7
`the Panel is capable of reading
`8
`through them and making its own
`9
`determinations of whether testimony
`10
`has been properly or improperly
`11
`characterized.
`12
` And, Mr. Young, you are free to
`13
`argue at the hearing if you feel that
`14
`something has been mischaracterized by
`15
`the petitioner in the reply.
`16
` So at this point, we're not
`17
`going to allow any further filings
`18 with regard to the deposition
`19
`testimony or the reply brief in
`20
`response by patent owner.
`21
` So I think we're going to leave
`22
`the record as is for now and move
`23
`forward with preparing for the
`24
`hearing.
`25
` Are there any other matters that
`
`Page 24
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`need to being addressed at this stage?
`3
` MR. YOUNG: Just one question.
`4
` I know that both Mr. McKeown and
`5
`I have proposed that we argue both of
`6
`these IPR issues at the same hearing,
`7
`and I assume the Board will go along
`8 with that.
`9
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`10 Yes.
`11
` MR. YOUNG: But the difference
`12
`that we have is that Mr. McKeown is
`13
`talking about one hour and I'm talking
`14
`about two hours. I'm asking for two
`15
`hours. I'd certainly be willing to
`16
`compromise that it be an hour and a
`17
`half.
`18
` Have you Board members got any
`19
`thoughts about how much time you would
`20
`allocate to this oral argument, and
`21 whether this is one or one-and-a-half
`22
`hours per party or for the entire
`23
`argument?
`24
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER: A
`25
`very good question.
`
`Page 25
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` We typically give half an hour
`3
`per party, per case. In this case, I
`4
`need to confer with the party and I'll
`5
`issue a hearing order. But that's
`6
`typically what the amount of time
`7
`that's allotted.
`8
` Because we have two cases here,
`9
`and we have different prior art in
`10
`each cases and slightly different
`11
`issues to address, my instinct is an
`12
`hour per party, per case. So a total
`13
`of an hour per -- I'm sorry. An hour
`14
`total per party. So half an hour
`15
`basically allotted for each case,
`16
`although we won't separate it out
`17
`necessarily to half an hour per case.
`18
` MR. YOUNG: I'm pretty sure I
`19
`can make do with that. That's good to
`20
`hear. Thank you. And I understand
`21
`you haven't committed to that.
`22
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`23
`Right.
`24
` MR. YOUNG: But if that's the
`25 way it goes, that sounds fine to me.
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER: So
`3
`just to be clear, we're talking about
`4
`two hours total time for the hearing,
`5
`one hour per side.
`6
` And, also, you had asked the
`7
`question earlier about having -- I
`8
`know I'm not going to say his name
`9
`properly -- Mr. Bontrager.
`10
` He may attend the hearing. I
`11
`don't see a problem with that.
`12
` Were you asking whether he would
`13
`be able to present at the hearing or
`14
`just attend the hearing?
`15
` MR. YOUNG: No. No, just simply
`16
`to attend.
`17
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`18 Yes, he may attend.
`19
` MR. YOUNG: Okay. Thank you.
`20
` I understand the use of a
`21
`passport for entry identification,
`22
`that rule is in effect now?
`23
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`24 Yes, it is. I don't know all of the
`25
`states. There is information on this
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 7
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`Page 26
`
`Page 27
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
`PTO web page about all the
`3
`requirements for gaining entry.
`4
` But we accept driver's licenses
`5
`from certain states, but not from
`6
`others. So you will want to check and
`7 make sure, and maybe just bring that
`8
`passport, just in case.
`9
` There are certain states where
`10
`the driver's license does not meet the
`11
`standards that we need, and so we do
`12
`require a passport.
`13
` MR. YOUNG: Well, he's from
`14 Ohio and we're from Michigan, so we'll
`15
`have to check both states. Okay. We
`16 will do that.
`17
` Do you have a decision as to
`18
`time of day? Is this a morning event
`19
`or an afternoon event?
`20
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER: I
`21
`think we're looking at 2:00 p.m.
`22 We'll send out a notice confirming
`23
`that time, but that looks like the
`24
`time we're shooting for, and still on
`25
`the 21st.
`
`Page 28
`
`1
` PROCEEDINGS
`2
` MR. YOUNG: Thank you for your
`3
`time today, and thank you for
`4
`entertaining our requests. I'm
`5
`disappointed that I didn't get
`6
`anywhere with either one of them, but
`7
`I do appreciate your looking at them.
`8
` We look forward to seeing you on
`9
`the 21st.
`10
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`11 Very good. All right.
`12
` Any last issues, Mr. McKeown, or
`13
`are we all set?
`14
` MR. MCKEWON: No, I think we're
`15
`good to go. I'll see you on the 21st.
`16
`Thank you very much.
`17
` ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE HORNER:
`18 Very well. Thank you both. Bye-bye.
`19
` [Time Noted: 3:30 p.m.]
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` CERTIFICATION
`
`12
`
`34
`
` I, Goldy Gold, a Notary Public for and
`5 within the State of New York, do hereby
`6
`certify:
`7
` That the witness whose testimony as
`8
`herein set forth, was duly sworn by me;
`9
`and that the within transcript is a true
`10
`record of the testimony given by said
`11 witness.
`12
` I further certify that I am not
`13
`related to any of the parties to this
`14
`action by blood or marriage, and that I am
`15
`in no way interested in the outcome of
`16
`this matter.
`17
` IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
`18
`set my hand this 13th day of April, 2016.
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` _______________________
` GOLDY GOLD, RPR
`
` * * *
`
`8 (Pages 26 to 28)
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 8
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`Page 1
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`able (3)
`10:20 16:11 25:13
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`C (2)
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`
`
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 9
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`copying (2)
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`4:7 20:25
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`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1029, pg. 10
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00958
`
`

`
`Page 3
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