throbber
Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________
`
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX INC. AND APPLICATION
` INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION
` Patent Owner
` _______________
`
` Case No. IPR2015-00866
` Case No. IPR2015-00867
` Case No. IPR2015-00868
` Case No. IPR2015-00869
` Case No. IPR2015-00870
` Case No. IPR2015-00871
` Patent No. 8,458,341
` Patent No. 8,516,131
` Patent No. 8,560,705
` _______________
`
` DEPOSITION OF ROBERTO TAMASSIA
` Washington, D.C.
` Thursday, January 14, 2016
`
`Reported by: John L. Harmonson, RPR
`Job No. 99553
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`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2022
`Apple v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-00871
`
`Page 1 of 80
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`

`
`Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 2
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` January 14, 2016
` 9:09 a.m.
`
` Deposition of ROBERTO TAMASSIA, held at the
`offices of Sidley Austin, LLP, 1501 K Street,
`N.W., Washington, D.C., before John L. Harmonson,
`a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary
`Public of the District of Columbia, who
`officiated in administering the oath to the
`witness.
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`

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`Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`On Behalf of Petitioner, Apple Inc.:
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
` 1501 K Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: THOMAS BROUGHAN III, ESQ.
` SCOTT BORDER, ESQ.
`
`On Behalf of Patent Owner, VirnetX Inc.:
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 875 15th Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: JOSEPH PALYS, ESQ.
` DANIEL ZEILBERGER, ESQ.
` CHETAN BANSAL, ESQ.
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`Roberto Tamassia
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`--------------------------------------------------
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` 9:09 a.m.
`--------------------------------------------------
` Whereupon,
` ROBERTO TAMASSIA,
` after having been first duly sworn or affirmed,
` was examined and did testify under oath as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:09:30
` Q. Good morning. 09:09:31
` A. Hello. Good morning. 09:09:33
` Q. Can you please state your name and 09:09:35
` spell it for the record. 09:09:37
` A. Yes. Roberto Tamassia, R-o-b-e-r-t-o, 09:09:38
` T-a-m-a-s-s-i-a. 09:09:44
` Q. And you've been deposed before, 09:09:47
` correct? 09:09:49
` A. That's right. 09:09:52
` Q. When were you deposed? 09:09:53
` A. So I was deposed back in mid-November 09:09:54
` on the Apple v. VirnetX case by Joe, who is here. 09:09:58
` Q. Is that the only time you've been 09:10:05
` deposed? 09:10:08
`
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`Page 5
` A. I was deposed also a second time on a 09:10:09
` different matter on Dunstan v. ComScore. That 09:10:12
` was in December -- 09:10:24
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Can we take a quick 09:10:26
` break, please. 09:10:28
` (Off the record.)
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:12:19
` Q. You understand you're here today for 09:12:33
` the deposition in IPR2013-00866, IPR2015-00868, 09:12:35
` IPR2015-00870, and IPR2015-00871, correct? 09:12:42
` A. I guess so. I don't remember exactly 09:12:52
` the numbers, but if you show me my declaration, I 09:12:54
` can confirm. 09:12:58
` Q. So without your declaration, you won't 09:13:02
` know which proceedings your declaration is 09:13:04
` relative to? 09:13:08
` A. I remember which patents they are 09:13:09
` about. I don't remember the exact string of the 09:13:12
` proceedings. 09:13:15
` Q. So I'm handing you what's already been 09:13:34
` labeled as Exhibit 1005. 09:13:38
` So with having the declaration in 09:14:03
` front of you now, I'll ask you the question 09:14:05
` again. Do you understand you're here today for 09:14:08
` the deposition in IPR2015-00866, IPR2015-00868, 09:14:09
`
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`Roberto Tamassia
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`Page 6
` IPR2015-00870 and IPR2015-00871? 09:14:17
` A. Yes. 09:14:23
` Q. And do you understand that you're 09:14:27
` under oath today? 09:14:29
` A. Yes, I do. 09:14:30
` Q. At any time today if you need to take 09:14:33
` a break, please let me know, okay? 09:14:37
` A. Thank you. 09:14:40
` Q. But if there is a pending question, 09:14:40
` please answer the question first. 09:14:42
` A. Sure. 09:14:45
` Q. And if any of my questions are unclear 09:14:45
` to you, please let me know, otherwise I will 09:14:48
` assume that you understood the question. Okay? 09:14:51
` A. Sure. 09:14:53
` Q. Do you have any questions at this 09:14:54
` point? 09:14:55
` A. No. 09:14:56
` Q. Is there any reason you can't testify 09:14:57
` completely and accurately today? 09:15:00
` A. I cannot think of any reason. 09:15:03
` Q. Did you spend any time preparing for 09:15:08
` today's deposition? 09:15:10
` A. Yes. 09:15:13
` Q. When did you begin to prepare? 09:15:14
`
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`Page 7
` A. I began two days ago. 09:15:20
` Q. How much time did you spend preparing? 09:15:28
` A. About 12 hours. 09:15:41
` Q. Did you prepare with anyone? 09:15:49
` A. Yes. 09:15:52
` Q. Who did you prepare with? 09:15:54
` A. I prepared with counsel, with Tom and 09:15:56
` Scott, who are here. 09:16:01
` Q. Anybody else? 09:16:03
` A. No. 09:16:05
` Q. Did you review any documents? 09:16:12
` MR. BROUGHAN: Hold on. I'll caution 09:16:15
` the witness not to reveal the substance of 09:16:17
` any communications with counsel. But 09:16:20
` subject to that, you can answer the 09:16:22
` question. 09:16:24
` THE WITNESS: I reviewed my 09:16:35
` declaration and some of the relevant 09:16:37
` exhibits. 09:16:40
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:16:43
` Q. When you say "some of the relevant 09:16:44
` exhibits," what do you mean? 09:16:46
` A. Exhibits related to my declaration. 09:16:50
` Q. Do you remember which ones? 09:16:54
` A. Yes, I do. 09:16:57
`
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` Q. Can you please let me know which ones 09:16:58
` they were? 09:17:01
` A. The Beser patent. The Aventail 09:17:05
` manuals. RFC 2401. And the VirnetX patents 09:17:13
` '341, '131 and '0705. 09:17:27
` Q. Anything else? 09:17:37
` A. No. 09:17:39
` Q. Did you bring anything with you today 09:17:42
` to help you testify? 09:17:43
` A. I did not bring anything for the 09:17:56
` purpose of testifying. 09:17:58
` Q. So you didn't bring anything to help 09:18:11
` you testify? 09:18:13
` A. Right. 09:18:14
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:18:18
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:18:28
` Q. So I previously handed you 09:18:28
` Exhibit 1005. Do you recognize this exhibit? 09:18:30
` A. The cover is the cover of my 09:18:35
` declaration. And I trust that this is the exact 09:18:39
` content that you gave me. 09:18:46
` Q. Do you have any reason to believe that 09:18:50
` this is not your declaration? 09:18:51
` A. I have no reason. 09:18:53
` Q. And on page 192, Paragraph 465, is 09:18:55
`
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`Page 9
` that your signature? 09:19:02
` A. Yes. 09:19:06
` Q. I'm handing the witness what's been 09:19:30
` previously marked as Exhibit 1006. This is the 09:19:32
` CV that was filed with your declaration, correct? 09:19:48
` A. I think so, yes. 09:19:59
` Q. Do you have any reason to believe it's 09:20:01
` not? 09:20:03
` A. I continuously update my CV, and I 09:20:05
` guess that this is the version that was included 09:20:10
` in the declaration since you are marking here as 09:20:12
` Exhibit 1006. 09:20:16
` Q. Can you read the first sentence under 09:20:18
` the "Brief Biography" section out loud? 09:20:20
` A. You want me to read the first sentence 09:20:31
` of the paragraph "Brief Biography"? Is that what 09:20:33
` you would like me to do? 09:20:37
` Q. Yes, please. 09:20:39
` A. "Roberto Tamassia is the Plastech 09:20:39
` professor of computer science and chairman of the 09:20:42
` department of computer science at Brown 09:20:46
` University." 09:20:50
` Q. Are you the chair of the department of 09:20:54
` computer science at Brown University? 09:20:56
` A. I'm currently not the chair. 09:20:59
`
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` Q. Were you the chair when you signed 09:21:02
` this declaration on March 12, 2015? 09:21:04
` A. I was not. I had already stepped down 09:21:14
` from that position. 09:21:17
` Q. Did you review this CV before it was 09:21:27
` filed? 09:21:31
` A. I don't think I reviewed it. I guess 09:22:13
` it was something that was on file at the time. 09:22:16
` Q. Can you turn to Paragraph 6 of your 09:22:38
` declaration? 09:22:41
` A. Yes. 09:22:51
` Q. What does Paragraph 6 say? 09:22:53
` A. It reads: "My CV is included as an 09:22:55
` appendix to this report." 09:22:58
` Q. So you didn't review the CV that you 09:23:06
` refer to in Paragraph 6? 09:23:08
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:23:15
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:23:16
` Q. Did you understand the question? 09:23:17
` A. I do understand the question. 09:23:18
` I did check that it was a CV that I 09:24:39
` had previously provided to counsel as part of 09:24:42
` preparing the declaration. I did not recheck it 09:24:47
` line by line. 09:24:51
` Q. Section -- Strike that. 09:25:05
`
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`Page 11
` Do you have an updated CV? 09:25:07
` A. Yes. 09:25:09
` Q. Do you know what has changed since you 09:25:24
` filed this CV? 09:25:27
` A. There are new publications. There is 09:26:22
` one new grant. There are one or two patents 09:26:27
` where I am an inventor that were issued. And I 09:26:35
` likely fixed my brief bio to remove the reference 09:26:48
` to being chair of the department. 09:26:54
` Q. Have you submitted your updated CV in 09:27:04
` any proceeding? 09:27:07
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:27:18
` THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the 09:27:22
` question? 09:27:23
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:27:27
` Q. Have you submitted your CV in any IPR 09:27:30
` proceeding? 09:27:35
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:27:36
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I have submitted my 09:27:43
` CV as part of several IPR proceedings. 09:27:45
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:27:53
` Q. So your updated CV has been used in 09:27:54
` IPR proceedings? 09:27:59
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:28:01
` Foundation. 09:28:09
`
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` THE WITNESS: Can you tell me which 09:28:17
` proceedings are you referring to? 09:28:18
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:28:22
` Q. Earlier you said: "Yes, I have 09:28:23
` submitted my CV as part of several IPR 09:28:27
` proceedings." Are you referring to the CV you 09:28:30
` have in front of you, Exhibit 1006, or are you 09:28:34
` referring to the updated CV that you referred to 09:28:38
` earlier? 09:28:41
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:28:42
` Foundation. 09:28:43
` THE WITNESS: My answer was about a CV 09:28:51
` of mine being included together with the 09:28:53
` declaration. 09:29:02
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:29:06
` Q. To your knowledge, has your updated CV 09:29:07
` been used in any IPR proceeding? 09:29:10
` A. I don't remember providing an updated 09:29:34
` CV. 09:29:37
` Q. Why did you update your CV? 09:30:23
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:30:37
` THE WITNESS: There are two main 09:30:54
` reasons for which I update my CV. One is 09:30:56
` because it is required by my employer to 09:31:01
` submit an updated CV on a yearly basis for 09:31:05
`
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` performance review purposes. 09:31:11
` An additional reason is to let others 09:31:14
` be aware of the latest developments of my 09:31:21
` work. And I post periodically updated 09:31:26
` versions on my web page. 09:31:35
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:31:44
` Q. Go to Section 4 of your declaration. 09:31:44
` A. Are you referring to Paragraph 4? 09:31:53
` Q. No, no. It would be on page 58, 09:31:56
` Section 4. 09:32:02
` A. Yes. 09:32:11
` Q. In Section 4 you provide what you 09:32:15
` refer to as a technical background, right? 09:32:17
` A. Yes. 09:32:21
` Q. And you have four subsections, 09:32:23
` computer network, Internet protocol suite TCP/IP, 09:32:29
` domain system DNS, and network encryption, 09:32:37
` correct? 09:32:44
` A. That's right. 09:32:45
` Q. Would you turn to Paragraph 154. 09:32:51
` A. 154? That's what you asked? 09:33:04
` Q. Yes. 09:33:07
` A. I have it in front of me. 09:33:07
` Q. Paragraph 154 says that "By connecting 09:33:12
` layer to LANs with layer 3 routing devices, 09:33:18
`
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` router's information from any device on any of 09:33:23
` the connected layer 2 LANs can be communicated to 09:33:27
` any other device on those connected LANs." 09:33:31
` Correct? 09:33:35
` A. Yes, that is the sentence. 09:33:37
` Q. Isn't it true that a device on one LAN 09:33:41
` will not necessarily be able to communicate with 09:33:44
` another device on another LAN? 09:33:48
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:33:52
` Relevance. 09:33:57
` THE WITNESS: The sentence refers to 09:35:07
` the general routing mechanism on the 09:35:09
` Internet. It is a very brief general 09:35:14
` statement. It does not address all sorts of 09:35:22
` details and special circumstances where, for 09:35:26
` example, firewalls may prevent routing from 09:35:30
` one LAN to another LAN. 09:35:36
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:36:16
` Q. So you would agree that in 09:36:17
` Paragraph 154, when you refer to "any device" and 09:36:20
` "any other device," you were being over 09:36:26
` inclusive? 09:36:31
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:36:37
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:36:38
` Q. Do you understand? 09:36:39
`
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` A. I understand your question. I'll say 09:36:39
` no. I was just sketching the general principles 09:38:24
` of communication across LANs through routing. 09:38:30
` Q. Can you turn to Paragraph 158 of your 09:39:24
` declaration? 09:39:28
` A. Yes. 09:39:40
` Q. You have a diagram there of a 09:39:42
` TCP three-way handshake, right? 09:39:45
` A. Yes. 09:39:53
` Q. The diagram has labels: Request 09:39:56
` connection, initialize connection, success code 09:40:00
` returned, and connection established. Right? 09:40:03
` A. Yes. 09:40:08
` Q. Request connection refers to a Host A 09:40:10
` requesting a connection with Host B, correct? 09:40:14
` A. Yes. 09:40:20
` Q. What did you mean when you said 09:40:25
` "initialize connection"? 09:40:26
` A. I was referring to the initial 09:41:44
` processing performed at Host B upon receiving the 09:41:46
` send message that will enable the continuation of 09:41:57
` the communication between A and B at a later 09:42:01
` stage. 09:42:06
` Q. Is your view consistent with what one 09:42:15
` of ordinary skill in the art would have 09:42:22
`
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`Page 16
` understood at the relevant time? 09:42:25
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:42:28
` MR. ZEILBERGER: Let me rephrase that. 09:42:35
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:43:10
` Q. In Paragraph 41 of your declaration 09:43:10
` you say that it is your understanding that the 09:43:17
` claims of the '341 patent have a priority date of 09:43:23
` February 15, 2000. Correct? 09:43:30
` A. Can you repeat the question? 09:43:48
` Q. In Paragraph 41 of your declaration 09:43:51
` you say that it is your understanding that the 09:43:54
` claims of the '341 patent have a priority date of 09:43:58
` February 15, 2000. Correct? 09:44:02
` A. I will say that this paragraph refers 09:44:19
` to the two independent claims of the '341 patent 09:44:22
` as having priority date February 15, 2000. 09:44:30
` Q. In Paragraph 44 you say that the 09:44:50
` effective filing date of the '341 patent claims 09:44:53
` is not earlier than February 15, 2000. Correct? 09:44:56
` A. Yes, this is what Paragraph 44 -- This 09:45:22
` is what Paragraph 44 says, that the effective 09:45:26
` filing date of the claims in the '341 patent is 09:45:31
` not earlier than the date February 15, 2000. 09:45:35
` Q. And in Paragraph 49 you similarly say 09:45:39
` that "It is my understanding that the effective 09:45:42
`
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`Page 17
` filing date of the '131 patent claims is no 09:45:45
` earlier than February 15, 2000." 09:45:51
` A. That is what it says, Paragraph 49, 09:45:55
` yes. 09:45:59
` Q. And in Paragraph 54 you similarly say 09:46:01
` that "It is my understanding that the effective 09:46:06
` filing date of the '0705 patent claims is no 09:46:09
` earlier than February 15, 2000." 09:46:15
` A. Right. 09:46:21
` Q. So when I refer to the relevant time 09:46:25
` for purposes of today in my discussion today of 09:46:29
` IPR2015-00866, IPR2015-00868, IPR2015-00870 and 09:46:36
` IPR2015-00871, I'll be referring to the time you 09:46:44
` refer to in those paragraphs, February 15, 2000. 09:46:50
` Okay? 09:46:54
` A. Yes. 09:46:55
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:46:56
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:46:57
` Q. Did you understand what I meant? 09:46:57
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; foundation. 09:47:08
` THE WITNESS: I believe we are 09:47:32
` referring to the background of someone of 09:47:34
` ordinary skill in the art as of this date, 09:47:36
` February 15, 2000. 09:47:39
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:47:47
`
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` Q. So if we turn back to Paragraph 158 -- 09:47:47
` A. Yes, I am there. 09:48:11
` Q. Do you recall that I asked you a 09:48:15
` question about initialize connection? 09:48:17
` A. Yes. 09:48:20
` Q. I asked you: "What did you mean when 09:48:21
` you said initialize connection?" 09:48:22
` And you answered: "I was referring to 09:48:24
` the initial processing performed at Host B upon 09:48:27
` receiving the send message that will enable the 09:48:31
` continuation of the communication between A and B 09:48:34
` at a later stage." 09:48:39
` Is that understanding of one of skill 09:48:47
` in the art around February 15, 2000? 09:48:49
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:48:55
` Foundation. 09:48:56
` THE WITNESS: I believe that someone 09:49:09
` of ordinary skills in the art as of 09:49:10
` February 15, 2000, would be familiar with 09:49:13
` the TCP protocol, including the three-way 09:49:18
` handshake, and would be familiar with the 09:49:23
` messages that are exchanged in the TCP 09:49:26
` handshake and the processing of each host 09:49:32
` during the handshake. 09:49:36
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:49:37
`
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`Page 19
` Q. And it's your opinion that someone 09:49:38
` with that knowledge would have the same 09:49:41
` understanding you just provided me about 09:49:43
` initialize connection? 09:49:45
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:49:57
` THE WITNESS: I believe the 09:50:21
` understanding of someone of ordinary skill 09:50:22
` in the art would be consistent with what 09:50:25
` I've just mentioned. 09:50:28
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:50:33
` Q. With what you mentioned about 09:50:34
` initialize connection? 09:50:35
` A. Yes. 09:50:38
` Q. When you provide in your diagram 09:50:43
` success code returned, are you referring to Host 09:50:45
` A returning an acknowledgment packet to Host B? 09:50:51
` A. I was referring to the processing 09:52:13
` performed at Host A upon receiving the SYN-ACK 09:52:16
` packet from Host B that results in sending by A 09:52:34
` the third message of the handshake, the ACK 09:52:42
` packet to B. 09:52:53
` Q. The last step in your diagram is 09:52:58
` connection established. Correct? 09:53:01
` A. Yes. 09:53:09
` Q. What did you mean by connection 09:53:13
`
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`Page 20
` established? 09:53:15
` A. It means that A and B have finished 09:53:59
` performing the handshake protocol and now can 09:54:03
` communicate with each other with the TCP 09:54:10
` protocol. 09:54:16
` Q. Is there any step that is performed 09:54:25
` after Host B receives the acknowledgment packet 09:54:32
` in order for a connection established to be 09:54:41
` performed? 09:54:44
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 09:54:46
` THE WITNESS: On reviewing the ACK 09:57:16
` packet, it will check the validity of the 09:57:20
` packet according to the protocol and B will 09:57:23
` update the data structure associated with 09:57:28
` the connection. 09:57:36
` BY MR. ZEILBERGER: 09:57:46
` Q. Is the understanding you just provided 09:57:47
` me consistent with what one of ordinary skill in 09:57:49
` the art would have understood around February 15, 09:57:52
` 2000? 09:57:57
` A. Yes, I believe it will be consistent. 09:57:59
` Q. In Paragraphs 19 to 23 of your 09:58:37
` declaration you explain your understanding of the 09:58:42
` standards that govern a determination of whether 09:58:49
` a patent claim is anticipated by the prior art. 09:58:52
`
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` Correct? 09:58:55
` A. Yes. 09:59:04
` Q. In Paragraphs 24 through 39 of your 09:59:06
` declaration you explain your understanding of the 09:59:10
` standards that govern a determination of whether 09:59:13
` a patent claim would have been obvious to a 09:59:15
` person of ordinary skill in the fields of the 09:59:18
` invention at the time the invention was made. 09:59:23
` Correct? 09:59:26
` A. Paragraphs 24 through 39 cover my 09:59:49
` understanding of obviousness. 09:59:54
` Q. And when you say "obviousness," you 10:00:00
` mean your understanding of whether a patent claim 10:00:04
` would have been obvious to a person of ordinary 10:00:08
` skill in the field of the invention at the time 10:00:13
` the invention was made? 10:00:15
` A. Right. As I say in Paragraph 24. 10:00:17
` Q. You've testified before that you have 10:01:34
` no personal knowledge about the RFC publication 10:01:36
` process, correct? 10:01:42
` MR. BROUGHAN: Objection; form. 10:01:46
` Foundation. 10:01:48
` THE WITNESS: I understand that I 10:04:46
` previously testified that I am familiar with 10:04:48
` the RFC publication process, with how RFC 10:04:52
`
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`Page 22
` publications are posted an

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