Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 1
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX, INC.
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case No. IPR2015-00810
` Patent No. 8,868,705
` Case Nos. IPR2015-00811
` and IPR-2015-00812
` Patent No. 8,850,009
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA
` Volume One
` Washington, D.C.
` November 12, 2015
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
`Job No. 99551
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2015
`Apple v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-00811
`
`Page 1 of 252
`
`
`
`Page 1
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX, INC.
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case No. IPR2015-00810
` Patent No. 8,868,705
` Case Nos. IPR2015-00811
` and IPR-2015-00812
` Patent No. 8,850,009
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA
` Volume One
` Washington, D.C.
` November 12, 2015
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
`Job No. 99551
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`VIRNETX EXHIBIT 2015
`Apple v. VirnetX
`Trial IPR2015-00811
`
`Page 1 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 2
`
` November 12, 2015
` 9:00 a.m.
`
` Deposition of DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA,
`Volume One, held at the offices of Sidley
`Austin, 1501 K Street, N.W., Washington, D.C.,
`pursuant to Notice before Mary Ann Payonk,
`Nationally Certified Realtime Reporter and
`Notary Public of the District of Columbia,
`Commonwealth of Virginia, States of Maryland
`and New York.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`1 2 3 4
`
`5
`
`6 7
`
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 2 of 252
`
`
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 3
`
`APPEARANCES:
`ON BEHALF OF VIRNETX INC.:
` JOSEPH PALYS, ESQUIRE
` DANIEL ZEILBERGER, ESQUIRE
` CHETAN BANSAL, ESQUIRE
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 875 15th Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`ON BEHALF OF APPLE:
` SAMUEL DILLON, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS BROUGHAN, ESQUIRE
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
` 1501 K Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 3 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 4
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`DR. ROBERTO TAMASSIA,
` called as a witness, having been duly
` sworn, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Good morning.
` A. Yes, good morning.
` Q. Can you please state your name and
`spell it for the record.
` A. Yes. Roberto Tamassia.
`R-O-B-E-R-T-O T-A-M-A-S-S-I-A.
` Q. And, Mr. Tamassia -- or Dr. Tamassia?
` A. Yeah, Roberto, as you please.
` Q. You are here to provide
`cross-examination with respect to your direct
`testimony that you provided in some IPR matters
`involving VirnetX patents. Is that accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you submitted a
`declaration in a few matters relating to
`VirnetX patents; correct?
` A. Yes, it's correct.
` MR. PALYS: Okay. I'm going to
` hand you a copy of a document that's
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 4 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` been previously labeled Exhibit 1005,
` and it's entitled "Declaration of
` Roberto Tamassia regarding u.S. Patent
` numbers 8,868,705 and 8,850,009."
` (Exhibit No. 1005, previously marked, was
` referenced and indexed.)
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. I'll just hand this to you.
` A. Thank you.
` Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1005, sir?
` A. So scanning through it, I seem to
`recognize. I've not check all the pages. I
`trust you gave me what this is meant to be.
` Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 1005, as you can
`see on the first page, relates to the two
`patent numbers that I identified. And I'm
`going to refer to those patents today as the
`'705 and the '009 patents.
` Do you understand?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Can you turn to page 174 of
`Exhibit 1005, please. And is that your
`signature on page 174?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So this Exhibit 1005 is a
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 5 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`declaration that you provided in -- for
`IPR2015-00810. Is that accurate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And this exhibit is also the
`same declaration that you submitted for
`IPR2015-00811.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And Exhibit 1005 is also the same
`declaration you submitted for IPR2015-812?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And this exhibit is also the
`declaration that was submitted -- you submitted
`for IPR2015-00813; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Now, sir, have you been
`deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How many times?
` A. Once.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. Three years ago.
` Q. And was that deposition relating to
`the matter that's identified on paragraph 8 of
`your declaration?
` A. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 6 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` Q. You mention on paragraph 8 that it
`was a software privacy case. Is that accurate?
` A. This is correct.
` Q. Was that at all a patent-related
`matter?
` A. It was not, to my recollection.
` Q. Okay. I'm sure your lawyers
`instructed you what's going to happen today.
`You went through a deposition before. I won't
`go through all the rules, but if you have any
`questions on how the process is going to take
`place today, just let me know.
` But obviously, I'm going to be asking
`you questions. You do have answer them. The
`court reporter was kind enough to remind you
`and myself to make sure we don't talk over each
`other, so if that happens, you know, we will
`just work with each other to make sure each of
`us finish your response and my answers. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right. Is there any reason why
`you cannot testify today truthfully and
`accurately?
` A. I cannot think of any such reason.
` Q. Okay, that's a good start.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 7 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` So, sir, who retained you to provide
`an opinion for these proceedings?
` Well, let me take a step back so we
`can use the same terminology.
` I identified a number of IPR numbers,
`matter numbers, 810, 811, et cetera. Remember?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You got to verbally say it.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So I may refer to those as the 810
`matter or the 811 matter when I'm referring to
`those IPR proceedings. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Okay. So if you don't understand at
`any point, just let me know and I'll clarify.
`Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. All right. And in terms of your
`Exhibit 1005, I will refer to it as your
`declaration, and that's what I'm referring to
`as Exhibit 1005, okay?
` A. Sounds good.
` Q. Okay, all right.
` Now, who retained you for these
`proceedings? When I say "these proceedings," I
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 8 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`mean matters 810, 811, 812, and 813.
` A. I was retained by Sidley Austin.
` Q. Okay. And if you turn to page 1,
`paragraph 1 of your declaration, you state that
`you've been retained by counsel for Apple
`Incorporated; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And by "counsel," you mean Sidley
`Austin there; right?
` A. That's what I meant.
` Q. Okay. Have you done any other work
`for Apple other than the work you've done with
`respect to these IPR matters?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` To the extent that you do not reveal
` privileged information, you may answer.
` A. And that other work which is in the
`public record related to other patents.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. For Apple?
` A. For Apple.
` Q. So this other work that's in the
`public record related to other patents, were
`these relating to Apple patents?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 9 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. No.
` Q. Relating to some party other than
`Apple; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Okay. And when you say "other work,"
`was it one instance or multiple instances?
` A. It was more than one instance.
` Q. Okay. And when was the first time
`you did other work for Apple relating to other
`patents?
` A. It was earlier this year.
` Q. This year? 2015?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how many other instances did you
`do work for Apple related to other patents?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer. And to form.
` A. As I said, I've done other work,
`which appears as declarations in the public
`record.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Now I'm asking you how many of those.
` A. My recollection is two.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 10 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` Q. Okay. So the first one, the first
`other work that you did for Apple relating to
`other patents was sometime earlier in 2015, as
`you mentioned.
` When was the second one?
` A. It was also this year.
` Q. After the first one, I assume.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Was it recent? Was it -- let
`me strike that.
` Was it within the last six months?
` A. It was in the spring. I don't
`remember the date exactly, but I will be happy
`to look it up.
` Q. And for each of these matters, I'll
`call them --
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. -- you mentioned that you submitted
`declarations; is that right?
` A. This is right.
` Q. Okay. What type of declaration was
`submitted?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 11 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. Can you explain better what you mean
`by "type"?
` Q. Right. So you submitted -- in the
`first matter, you submitted a declaration;
`correct?
` A. Are you referring to this one here?
` Q. No. You testified earlier -- we're
`talking about these other --
` A. Other.
` Q. -- matters.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And I believe you said that you
`provided a declaration in those other matters;
`is that accurate?
` A. This is accurate.
` Q. Okay. So what I'm trying to find out
`is what type of declaration did you provide in
`those other matters?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. If you understand my question now.
` A. I believe I understand better.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I'm not sure if I understand it
`completely, but in terms of form, I analyze
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 12 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`some previous work that is related to other
`patents, and I expressed what is my opinion
`about that work and about obviousness issues in
`terms of combinations.
` Q. Okay. So it was -- the declaration
`related to the validity of these other patents;
`is that accurate?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I will say that I provided technical
`opinion. I believe that this issue of validity
`and invalidity is a legal issue.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. You said these were of public
`record. So let's start with the first other
`matter.
` Was that in a litigation where you
`submitted this, or were you provided this
`declaration?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent that it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer.
` A. I provided declaration that is also
`related to a -- what is called IPR,
`inter partes review.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 13 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay, okay. Thank you.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So it was another IPR matter you
`submitted a declaration; is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And was the second matter that you
`worked on also related to an IPR?
` A. I believe it was.
` Q. Okay. And who were the parties
`involved in those IPRs? Let me make it easier
`for you. Sorry.
` A. Okay.
` Q. You provided an opinion regarding
`other patents, right --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- in those other -- or those IPR
`matters. Who was the patent owner of those
`other patents in those IPRs?
` A. I understand those patents were
`assigned to VirnetX --
` Q. VirnetX?
` A. -- so VirnetX could be considered the
`owner.
` Q. Did you provide opinions regarding
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 14 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`other patents to any other -- regarding -- I'll
`start over.
` Did you provide a declaration
`regarding patents owned by any other company
`other than VirnetX?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent that the
` question seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer the question.
` A. The opinions I have expressed in my
`declarations refer to patents, some of which
`are owned by VirnetX, and others do not appear
`to be owned by VirnetX.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Why do you say they don't appear to
`be owned by VirnetX?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I'm using the word "appear" because
`VirnetX was not mentioned as the assignee. But
`I don't know, you know, what is behind the --
`so I don't know what is, I should say, beyond
`the original assignment that is recorded in the
`patent.
`BY MR. PALYS:
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 15 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` Q. Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you just
`identified earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` Subject to that objection, you may
` answer.
` A. I'm happy to confirm the work that is
`related to my declarations for IPRs.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So my question was: Have you done
`any other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you've just identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
` A. I understand you asked me already the
`question.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right. I don't believe you answered
`it so that's why I'm asking it again.
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So the question was: Have you done
`any other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Same objection.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 16 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. Does your question seek to find
`privileged information?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So the question is a yes or no, and I
`don't believe there's a privilege issue here.
`And your counsel will instruct you, so I'll
`repeat the question.
` Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you
`identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: To the extent that
` this question seeks privileged
` information and that would be the only
` information it seeks, you may say no.
` To the extent that it does not seek
` privileged information, you may explain
` and say yes or no, yeah, or --
` A. So what I can say is that there may
`or may not be work which would be covered by
`confidentiality and privilege. Besides such
`work which may or may not exist, I don't
`remember having done any other work for Apple.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. With all respect, that's a pretty
`wishy-washy response so I'll ask the question
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 17 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`again.
` Have you done any other work for
`Apple other than the matters that you've
`identified to me earlier?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent it seeks privileged information.
` To the extent that you have done
` nonprivileged work, you may describe
` that work. You may answer yes or no.
` A. I've not done any nonprivileged work.
`I cannot comment on the work I may or may have
`not done, which is privileged.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right. I'm not asking you for the --
`any content or substance of that work if you
`feel that's privileged.
` I'm just asking you for the fact, the
`nonprivileged fact of whether you've done any
`other work for Apple other than the matters
`that you've identified here today.
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent the question seeks privileged
` information. To the extent that you
` have done nonprivileged work you may say
` "yes" or "no."
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 18 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. I don't know how to answer with words
`different than what I've used before so I will
`again say that I've been working for Apple, and
`indeed, there are these declarations that I've
`submitted besides the current one.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay, so -- and I mean this with
`respect. I'm asking, are you refusing to
`answer that question that I -- that is pending?
`Let me repeat the question, then I'll ask you
`that.
` So again, the question is: Have you
`done any other work for Apple other than the
`matters that you just identified earlier? And
`the follow-up to that is I just need to know if
`you're refusing to answer that question.
` A. Well, I --
` MR. DILLON: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I absolutely do not
` want to refuse. I want to cooperate and
` give you the information I'm allowed to
` give you. So I feel a bit in a strange
` spot because I, you know, don't know the
` exact, you know, boundaries of privilege
` or nonprivilege.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 19 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. PALYS: Okay. And I appreciate
` that, sir.
` MR. BROUGHAN: Joe, let --
` MR. PALYS: I've got a question
` pending, then I'll get right to you.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So I appreciate that, sir. So that's
`why I've got to know if you are going to answer
`that question. Your basis for reasoning
`whether you're going to answer that or not is
`entirely up to you. I just need to know if
`you're going to answer that question.
` MR. DILLON: Objection.
` MR. PALYS: Let him answer first.
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I believe I answered to the extent I
`believe I can answer. If I were given the
`opportunity of understanding better, you know,
`what I'm allowed to say or not to say, what
`I -- you know, I -- I will be, you know, happy
`to say more.
` MR. BROUGHAN: Joe, let's take a
` break. We can confer about privilege
` and I can explain to him what's
` privileged and nonprivileged.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 20 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. PALYS: We will circle back
` after a break and revisit it.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I'll be happy
` to.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. For the other matters that you
`identified that you did work for Apple, the
`other IPR matters, did you work with a law firm
`on those?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what was the law firm?
` A. Sidley Austin.
` Q. And when did you --
` MR. BROUGHAN: I thought you were
` going to move on to a different topic,
` Joe.
` MR. PALYS: I can do my deposition
` as I want.
` MR. BROUGHAN: I mean, if you are
` going to keep asking him questions about
` this matter, he's not sure how to
` respond with privileged information. I
` want to make sure he understands the
` bounds of privilege and doesn't
` accidentally reveal information he's not
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 21 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` supposed to.
` MR. PALYS: I appreciate your
` concern, Tom. And I have to say I'm
` going to ask you to stop doing a
` speaking objection at this point. If
` you see my question, it's not the same
` question. So if you have an issue, make
` your objection and move on, but no more
` speaking objections.
` MR. BROUGHAN: It's not a speaking
` objection. I asked to take a break to
` confer with the witness about privilege,
` which is a perfectly permissible thing
` to do. You said no, you didn't want to
` do that.
` MR. PALYS: Can you mark the
` transcript, please? Thank you.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. So my question was, sir: For
`the other matters that you had identified that
`you did work for Apple, the IPR matters, did
`you work with a law firm? And you said yes;
`right?
` A. I did say yes.
` Q. And I -- I --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 22 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` THE WITNESS: And now it will be --
` sorry.
` MR. PALYS: Sorry.
` THE WITNESS: I thought it would be
` a good time to take a break.
` MR. PALYS: We have been going
` about 20 minutes.
` THE WITNESS: I know, but give an
` opportunity to ask Tom to review some
` matters to actually help the next
` questions. I believe it is in our
` common interest not to get stuck.
` MR. PALYS: You can take a break if
` you want.
` (Recess taken.)
` MR. DILLON: During the break,
` counsel for Apple had a short
` conversation with Dr. Tamassia where we
` explained how to answer a question
` involving privilege without answering or
` waiving privilege.
` MR. PALYS: Okay. I appreciate
` that.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So if I may, I'm going to go back to
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 23 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`some of my earlier questions and hopefully we
`will get a little more clarification. Thank
`you.
` Okay, sir. Have you done any other
`work for Apple other than the matters that you
`identified earlier to me today?
` MR. DILLON: Objection to the
` extent the question seeks privileged
` information. Subject to that objection,
` you may answer.
` A. I believe not.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Why do you say you believe not?
` A. Because I'm speaking out of my
`current recollection.
` Q. So there's a possibility that you
`did?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. I'm telling you what I remember now.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Right.
` A. Yes. So I will say no. I believe it
`is a simpler answer.
` Q. Okay. I mean, it's your response.
` A. Okay. So just let me clarify this.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 24 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`No.
` Q. Okay. Sir, by your response, you
`said "no." Do you mean no to nonprivileged
`work, or privileged work?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` Objection to the extent this question is
` seeking privileged information. Subject
` to that objection, you may answer the
` question.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Do you understand my question?
` A. Not exactly.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Could you say it again?
` Q. So your response of no, that you
`didn't do any other work for Apple other than
`the matters that you identified to me earlier,
`what I'd like to know is was that for all types
`of work that -- for Apple? In other words,
`I'll get to the question. I'm setting it up
`for you.
` You mentioned before that you have
`some nonprivileged public work and then
`possibly privileged work. Do you recall that
`testimony?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 25 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form,
` foundation.
` A. I did not say that I possibly had. I
`just stated something obvious, which is I may
`or may not have done additional work. It's a
`statement that, sorry, doesn't add any
`information.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Okay. I appreciate that.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Have you ever heard of a company
`called RPX Corporation?
` A. Can you spell out the name of the
`company?
` Q. R-P-X.
` A. The second letter is P as in Peter?
` Q. Yes.
` A. And the third S as in Sam?
` Q. No, sorry, X as in x-ray.
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. I may. I don't remember right now:
`I can look it up.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you done any work for RPX
`Corporation?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 26 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` privileged, to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. Can you say what "work for" means?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. I believe that term's been used
`before. What do you understand the phrase
`"work for" to mean?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. One meaning is being employed by or
`being a, you know, consultant for.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. How about even a broader
`understanding? So any type of work for -- when
`I say "work for," so have you done any type of
`work for RPX Corporation?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form, privilege to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. I don't remember.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of a company called
`Mangrove Partners?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 27 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. Mangrove Partners?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Yes.
` A. I may have encountered, but now I
`don't remember. I don't remember precisely.
` Q. Do you remember when you may have
`encountered the name?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form.
` A. I don't remember right now. I'm --
`I'm happy to look it up.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. What would you do to look it up to
`see if you can answer that question?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` form.
` A. I will do two things. First, I will
`see in the context of this deposition whether
`it is mentioned in the exhibits or my
`declaration. And if not, I will look more into
`my files and finally do a search.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you done any work for Mangrove
`Partners?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 28 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 29
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form,
` relevance.
` A. As I cannot remember the possible
`connection I may have to Mangrove Partners, I
`also cannot think now of any work I may have
`done for them. I can certainly say I was not
`employed by them. And I was not, you know,
`directly paid by them. That, I'm pretty sure.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of a gentleman by the
`name of Nathaniel August?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. August, like in the month?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Yes.
` A. I'm afraid I have to give you a
`similar answer as before, which is I don't
`remember right now.
` Q. Okay. How about a gentleman by the
`name of Ward Dietrich?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Have you heard of that --
` A. Can you spell the first name?
` Q. I'll just start over with the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 29 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 30
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`question.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name
`of Ward Dietrich, first name spelled W-A-R-D?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. The last name would be
`D-E-I-E-T-R-C-H, or --
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Last name is spelled D-I-E-T-R-I-C-H.
` A. Ward Dietrich? Don't remember right
`now. May or may not be.
` Q. Have you done any work for -- I'll
`start over.
` Have you done any patent-related work
`for any other entity other than Apple?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance,
` privileged to the extent it seeks
` privileged information. Subject to that
` objection, you may answer the question.
` A. I will answer by saying that I am
`myself an inventor of multiple patents, and my
`employer, Brown University, has applied for
`several patents where I am an inventor; and
`hence, I would consider my participation in the
`application as work. I'm not sure. Is that
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 30 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 31
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`the sense that you are using in your question?
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. Well, I mean, that answered one.
` So how about this: Have you done any
`work as a consultant that related to patents
`for any other entity other than Apple?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, relevance.
` A. So let me qualify my answer. I have
`been a consultant in the past for other
`companies, and the work I've done appeared to
`be unrelated to patents, but I do not know if
`what I was asked to work on was actually
`related.
` You can see in my CV several
`companies like Anderson Consulting or Digital
`Equipment. I don't know if what they asked me
`to work on, you know, for them was related to
`patents.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. When were you first retained by
`counsel for Apple Incorporated as an expert
`witness for these IPR matters that we're
`discussing today?
` A. At the beginning of the current year.
` Q. January 2015?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 31 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 32
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
` A. I don't remember the exact date. It
`was early this year.
` Q. When did you first start preparing
`your opinions that are reflected in your
`declaration, Exhibit 1005?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. It was early this year.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So you signed the -- your declaration
`on March 2, 2015, and that's on page 174;
`correct?
` A. Yes, correct.
` Q. Okay. So when you say you started
`work with these matters earlier this year,
`would you agree that would have been before
`March 2, 2015?
` A. Absolutely.
` Q. Okay. So when you started work, it
`couldn't have been earlier than January 1 of
`2015 based on your response; is that accurate?
` MR. DILLON: Objection, form.
` A. That is my recollection, but I don't
`remember exactly.
`BY MR. PALYS:
` Q. So sometime early this year, before
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Page 32 of 252
`
`
`
`Dr. Roberto Tamassia
`
`Page 33
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`March 2, you first started --
` A. I'll say well before, yes.
` Q. -- you first started work on --
` A. That's my --
` Q. -- your opinions --
` A. That's my recollection. Sorry, I
`don't want to interrupt you.
` Q. Okay, I've got to start over. Tell
`me when you're ready. Let me finish and then
`you can go.
` A. Got it.
` Q. And I'll try to do the same for you.
` So sometime between January 1, 2015
`and March of 2015 you firs
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
