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` UNITED STATES
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` PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` _____
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _____
`
`
`
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
`
`
`
` vs. US Patent No. 8,214,097
`
` IPR Case No.: IPR2014-00570
`
`
`
` PAICE LLC & ABELL
`
` FOUNDATION, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` __________________________/
`
` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` Southfield, Michigan
`
` May 8, 2015
`
`
`
`Reported by:
`
`Paula S. Raskin, CSR-4757
`
`Job no: 14127C
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
` 1
`
`PAICE 2204
`Ford v. Paice et al.
`IPR2015-00792
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`

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`
` DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D., taken on
` May 8, 2015 by the Plaintiffs at the Law
` Offices of Brooks Kushman, 1000 Town Center,
` Floor 22, Southfield, Michigan, before Paula S.
` Raskin, Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary
` Public in and for the State of Michigan, County
` of Oakland.
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`Page 3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` BROOKS KUSHMAN, PC
` BY: SANGEETA G. SHAH, ESQ.
` ANDREW B. TURNER, ESQ.
` FRANK A. ANGILERI, ESQ.
` 1000 Town Center, Floor 22
` Southfield, Michigan 48075
` (248) 358-4400
` sshah@brookskushman.com
` aturner@brookskushman.com
` fangileri@brookskushman.com
`
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` BY: PETER GUARNIERI, ESQ.
` BRIAN J. LIVEDALEN, ESQ.
` 1425 K Street NW, 11th Floor
` Washington, DC 20005
` (202) 783-5070
` guarnieri@fr.com
` livedalen@fr.com
`
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` INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
`
` Witness Page
` JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.
` EXAMINATION BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 6
`
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`
` Exhibit Page
` (Exhibits attached to transcript.)
`
` EXHIBIT 1 - "The Effects of APU Characteristics 6
` on the Design of Hybrid Control
` Strategies for Hybrid Electric
` Vehicles - C. Anderson
` EXHIBIT 2 - Declaration of Dr. Jeffrey L. Stein 39
` in Support of Petitioner's Reply to
` Patent Owner's Response
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`Page 5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` Southfield, Michigan
` May 8, 2015
` 3:30 p.m.
` * * * *
` JEFFREY L. STEIN, Ph.D.,
` having been called as a witness herein, was
` first duly sworn, examined, and testified as
` follows:
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Good afternoon, 15:30:03
` Dr. Stein. 15:30:04
` THE WITNESS: Good afternoon. 15:30:05
` I did want to put on the record that 15:30:10
` I have a hard personal constraint at 6:30. 15:30:13
` I don't have any idea what the legal or 15:30:17
` logistical constraints are for others, but 15:30:19
` that's the situation that I have. 15:30:22
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Okay. We'll do our 15:30:25
` best to wrap this up. If we cannot, then 15:30:27
` we'll tackle that problem at that time. We 15:30:31
` won't deal with it now. 15:30:35
` Dr. Stein, can you please state your 15:30:38
` full name for the record? 15:30:40
` THE WITNESS: Jeffrey L. Stein. 15:30:41
` MR. LIVEDALEN: And I assume by now 15:30:43
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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` you're familiar with the rules for these 15:30:45
` depositions? Want me to go over them with 15:30:48
` you? 15:30:51
` THE WITNESS: Certainly. You can go 15:30:51
` over them, please. 15:30:52
` MR. LIVEDALEN: So I'll be asking 15:30:54
` you questions. Your counsel can object, 15:30:55
` but you still need to answer the question. 15:30:58
` Of course, give time for counsel to make 15:31:00
` those objections. 15:31:03
` And we just ask that you respond to 15:31:04
` questions with an audible response, so no 15:31:07
` shaking of the head. It needs to be 15:31:11
` something that the court reporter can write 15:31:13
` down. 15:31:15
` Any questions from you? 15:31:17
` THE WITNESS: No. 15:31:19
` MR. LIVEDALEN: Okay. Let's get 15:31:20
` started. 15:31:21
` I'd like to mark this as Exhibit 1. 15:31:27
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1 MARKED 15:31:45
` FOR IDENTIFICATION at 3:31 p.m.) 15:31:45
` EXAMINATION 15:31:45
` BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 15:31:45
` Q. Dr. Stein, are you familiar with 15:31:48
`
`Page 7
`
` Exhibit 1? 15:31:50
` A. This appears to be the Anderson 15:31:54
` reference from my reply declaration. 15:32:00
` Q. Okay. 15:32:03
` MR. LIVEDALEN: And just for the 15:32:06
` record, that's Exhibit FMC 1006. 15:32:06
` Q. Dr. Stein, could you please turn 15:32:14
` with me to Page 7, and the lower numbering 15:32:15
` systems are 7 of 9. Do you see that? 15:32:27
` A. Yes. 15:32:27
` Q. And if you can, go with me to the 15:32:32
` section called "Emissions." Do you see that on 15:32:34
` the right column? 15:32:37
` A. Yes. 15:32:39
` Q. And then if you want to scroll down 15:32:39
` with me, so to the third paragraph, it starts 15:32:44
` with "Transients present." See that? 15:32:46
` A. Yes. 15:32:50
` Q. Finally, let's go to the last 15:32:51
` sentence in that paragraph starting with 15:32:53
` "Some." Can you please read that for me? 15:32:56
` A. "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:33:00
` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:33:04
` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:33:08
` the LLD." 15:33:12
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` Q. Dr. Stein, is this sentence 15:33:18
` referring to a parallel hybrid or a series 15:33:20
` hybrid? 15:33:25
` A. So this paper, I can -- talks about 15:33:26
` the general strategies that lie, as the title 15:33:34
` says, "Control Strategies for Hybrid Electric 15:33:39
` Vehicles," and it says: 15:33:42
` "The thought processes presented in 15:33:49
` this paper are sufficiently general that they 15:33:51
` can be applied to any type of vehicle." 15:33:53
` That's -- I'm reading from the 15:33:55
` bottom of Column 2 on Page 4 of Exhibit FMC 15:33:57
` 1006. 15:34:03
` Q. With that, the sentence you just 15:34:03
` read that says, "Some of this effect can be 15:34:06
` reduced using a hybrid strategy that only 15:34:09
` allows slow transients, but this places greater 15:34:12
` strain on the LLD," is that referring to a 15:34:16
` series hybrid or a parallel hybrid? 15:34:19
` MS. SHAH: Objection, asked and 15:34:22
` answered, form. 15:34:23
` A. I would answer as I did before that 15:34:29
` the paper is about hybrid control strategies 15:34:39
` and is talking about concepts of hybrid 15:34:43
` control, showing how you can trade off 15:34:48
`
`Page 9
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` engineering concepts in the design of these 15:34:52
` vehicles, and applies to parallel -- to all 15:34:56
` types of vehicles. 15:35:01
` Q. So the sentence in your opinion 15:35:05
` applies to -- strike that. 15:35:09
` So the sentence that reads, "Some of 15:35:12
` this effect can be reduced using a hybrid 15:35:14
` strategy that only allows slow transients, but 15:35:17
` this places greater strain on the LLD," that 15:35:22
` sentence in your opinion refers both to 15:35:24
` parallel and series hybrids? 15:35:26
` A. If you take that sentence out of the 15:35:29
` context and just give me that one sentence, 15:35:33
` then it would make no sense at all. So you 15:35:37
` have to include that sentence as she has done, 15:35:42
` in the context of a paragraph, and that 15:35:44
` paragraph within sections, and that section 15:35:47
` within a paper. 15:35:50
` And so in the context of this paper, 15:35:53
` I believe that the concept that she's talking 15:35:54
` about apply to, as she says, any type of 15:36:00
` vehicle. 15:36:06
` Q. So in proper context, the sentence 15:36:06
` that I read, "Some of this effect can be 15:36:08
` reduced using a hybrid strategy that only 15:36:11
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` allows slow transients, but this places greater 15:36:15
` strain on the LLD," refers to both -- or strike 15:36:18
` that. Let me start over. 15:36:26
` So in the proper context, the 15:36:28
` sentence, "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:36:30
` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:36:32
` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:36:37
` the LLD," that sentence includes both series 15:36:40
` and parallel in your opinion? 15:36:45
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form, vague. 15:36:48
` A. The sentence does not talk about a 15:36:51
` vehicle. The sentence by itself talks about a 15:36:55
` hybrid strategy. 15:37:00
` Q. Okay. So -- 15:37:01
` A. You're taking it out of context. 15:37:02
` Q. -- that strategy -- that strategy in 15:37:05
` proper context, what type of vehicle does that 15:37:09
` refer to? 15:37:11
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:37:12
` A. I guess I don't know what you're 15:37:25
` trying to ask me about looking at that one 15:37:27
` sentence. We can go back and properly read the 15:37:30
` whole paragraph and I can do that. 15:37:35
` Q. I'm not asking you to -- strike 15:37:39
` that. 15:37:39
`
`Page 11
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` I'm asking you about the sentence in 15:37:47
` its proper context. What is the sentence -- 15:37:49
` what does the sentence indicate to one of skill 15:38:00
` in the art in 1998? 15:38:05
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:38:09
` A. So can you repeat your question, 15:39:31
` please? 15:39:33
` Q. Sure. What is the sentence that 15:39:34
` reads "Some of this effect can be reduced using 15:39:40
` a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:39:43
` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:39:47
` the LLD" indicate to one of skill in the art in 15:39:50
` 1998? 15:39:55
` A. It indicates a conclusion to the 15:39:58
` paragraph that it's contained in. 15:40:03
` Q. And what is that? 15:40:06
` A. The paragraph talks about emissions: 15:40:08
` "Transients present an emissions 15:40:14
` problem that is largely related to the speed of 15:40:17
` the transient." 15:40:20
` That's the topic sentence for that 15:40:21
` paragraph. 15:40:25
` Q. Let me ask you this. The sentence 15:40:27
` I've read to you uses the term "hybrid 15:40:29
` strategy." What's the hybrid strategy that's 15:40:35
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` being referred to here? 15:40:38
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:40:38
` A. I mean the whole paper is about the 15:40:44
` hybrid strategy, about hybrid strategy for 15:40:47
` hybrid vehicles, so she's talking in general 15:40:51
` terms here. 15:40:54
` Q. So not a particular strategy. 15:40:56
` A. She's talking about the design 15:41:00
` problem of trading off of different issues in 15:41:04
` the design and control of hybrid vehicles. 15:41:14
` And she's talking about in this 15:41:18
` particular paragraph the fact that one of the 15:41:19
` issues is the -- relates to the fact that 15:41:23
` engines produce emissions, as everybody knows, 15:41:28
` and that they produce -- that one of ordinary 15:41:34
` skill would know, and that during the transient 15:41:39
` response of the engine, this is saying that 15:41:47
` there are -- that there's a particular increase 15:41:50
` in emissions that are produced. 15:41:56
` And as the paper more generally 15:42:00
` talks about, there are -- this is a 15:42:02
` consideration in the design of hybrid vehicles. 15:42:05
` Q. So you mentioned that the paragraph 15:42:09
` we've been talking about mentions that there's 15:42:18
` a particular increase in emissions that are 15:42:21
`
`Page 13
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` produced. Do you agree with that? 15:42:23
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:42:26
` Q. Let me be clear. I'm just reading 15:42:34
` your testimony from before, so I'm just trying 15:42:35
` to establish... 15:42:39
` A. I said that this paragraph 15:42:40
` specifically talks about that transients, 15:42:42
` that -- that engine transients in engines, so 15:42:44
` internal combustion engines like the type that 15:42:57
` you typically find in hybrid vehicles and 15:43:02
` conventional vehicles, for that matter, that 15:43:05
` the emissions -- I'm talking now generically -- 15:43:09
` that the emissions that engines produce become 15:43:14
` greater during the transient operation of the 15:43:18
` engine. 15:43:23
` Q. So I understand in this paragraph 15:43:24
` it's identifying a problem, right, that the 15:43:27
` transients increase? 15:43:30
` Sorry, strike that. 15:43:36
` So the paragraph is identifying a 15:43:39
` problem that the engine produces greater 15:43:47
` emissions during transients. Is that right? 15:43:52
` A. I guess I don't know why you're 15:44:08
` asking me that question given the last response 15:44:09
` that I gave you. 15:44:12
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` Q. The response that you gave me is 15:44:13
` indicating that Anderson in this paragraph is 15:44:15
` talking about emissions, right, and you want to 15:44:20
` lower emissions by reducing transients? Do you 15:44:25
` agree with that? 15:44:30
` MS. SHAH: Objection, asked and 15:44:30
` answered. 15:44:31
` A. She is saying, as I said before, 15:44:36
` that emissions from engines is -- for hybrid 15:44:39
` vehicles is a factor to be considered, and that 15:44:44
` during the engine's transient performance, this 15:44:50
` is -- transient operation, that emissions are 15:44:57
` greater and that this is something that you 15:45:02
` should consider as part of developing your 15:45:05
` strategy for your hybrid vehicle. 15:45:10
` Q. So greater emissions, that's bad, 15:45:12
` right? 15:45:17
` A. In what context? I guess I would 15:45:17
` ask you that question. 15:45:28
` Q. Is Anderson talking here about 15:45:29
` trying to reduce emissions or increase 15:45:31
` emissions by using a hybrid strategy? 15:45:33
` A. She's suggesting that the production 15:45:38
` of emissions is something that you should be 15:45:41
` concerned about, and anybody -- a person of 15:45:45
`
`Page 15
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` ordinary skill would be concerned about it, and 15:45:48
` that in considering the design of your hybrid 15:45:51
` strategy, you have to trade off how much -- the 15:45:55
` emissions that are produced by your vehicle 15:46:03
` with other considerations. 15:46:05
` Q. But if all things -- everything else 15:46:08
` equal, you prefer to reduce the emissions as 15:46:10
` opposed to increasing the emissions, right? 15:46:14
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:46:16
` A. So what is the context that you're 15:46:21
` talking about? 15:46:27
` Q. I'm just trying to get on the same 15:46:28
` page here with respect to this paragraph. 15:46:32
` Is Anderson saying you need to 15:46:35
` consider emissions because you want to reduce 15:46:36
` them or because you want to increase them? 15:46:39
` A. You -- I'm telling you from what I 15:46:43
` said before that the issue of emissions is 15:46:49
` something that you have to trade off with 15:46:54
` respect to other issues that are of 15:46:58
` consideration in the design of your vehicle. 15:47:03
` Q. So does the sentence "Some of this 15:47:12
` effect can be reduced using the hybrid strategy 15:47:15
` that only allows slow transients, but this 15:47:18
` places greater strain on the LLD," does that 15:47:23
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` sentence propose a specific hybrid strategy for 15:47:26
` considering emissions? 15:47:32
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:47:35
` A. So I -- could you rephrase your 15:47:53
` question, please? 15:47:56
` Q. Well, I'll ask you the same question 15:47:59
` again. 15:48:01
` A. Well, I did ask for you to rephrase 15:48:02
` the question because I find it confusing. 15:48:04
` Q. What did you find confusing about my 15:48:06
` question? 15:48:08
` A. That I can't understand what you're 15:48:08
` asking me. 15:48:10
` Q. So you understand the sentence we're 15:48:11
` talking about, right? It says: 15:48:14
` "Some of this effect can be reduced 15:48:18
` using a hybrid strategy that only allows slow 15:48:20
` transients, but this places greater strain on 15:48:24
` the LLD." 15:48:27
` A. Yes, I see that sentence. 15:48:33
` Q. Do you see that? 15:48:36
` A. Yes. 15:48:37
` Q. Is Anderson referring to a specific 15:48:37
` hybrid strategy here that addresses the 15:48:40
` emissions considerations that you've discussed 15:48:46
`
`Page 17
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` previously? 15:48:48
` MS. SHAH: Objection, vague. 15:48:52
` A. I mean the whole paper is about 15:49:07
` coming up with a hybrid strategy. 15:49:09
` Q. What is that hybrid strategy? 15:49:15
` A. There isn't one. It's -- she's 15:49:17
` suggesting that the space for coming up with 15:49:21
` your hybrid strategy involves thinking about 15:49:25
` the trade-off between different variables, 15:49:27
` different issues as they relate to the 15:49:32
` performance of a hybrid vehicle. 15:49:36
` Q. Okay. Thank you. 15:49:39
` Dr. Stein, sorry to keep asking you 15:50:19
` about the same sentence here, but I want to 15:50:24
` focus on the portion that says, "but this 15:50:27
` places greater strain on the LLD." 15:50:30
` Do you see that? 15:50:36
` A. Yes, I see that phrase. 15:50:36
` Q. Would a hybrid strategy employing a 15:50:39
` thermostat mode place a great strain on the 15:50:49
` LLD? 15:50:55
` A. What are you talking about here? 15:50:57
` Q. Are you familiar -- 15:51:02
` A. It's a very generic question. 15:51:03
` Q. Are you -- 15:51:05
`
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` A. Can you be more specific? 15:51:06
` Q. Sure. Are you familiar with what 15:51:07
` Anderson refers to as a thermostat mode? 15:51:09
` A. I understand that she uses that term 15:51:13
` in describing one extreme of the operation of a 15:51:15
` hybrid vehicle, yes. 15:51:26
` Q. And does -- and what's happening in 15:51:27
` thermostat mode? 15:51:35
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:51:39
` A. Can you be more specific about what 15:51:42
` you mean by what's happening? 15:51:45
` Q. Can you describe to me based on your 15:51:47
` understanding the thermostat mode as described 15:51:49
` by Anderson? 15:51:53
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:52:01
` A. On Page 5 -- I'm not sure what your 15:52:07
` question is asking, but Anderson on Page 5 15:52:14
` under the title "Hybrid Control Strategies" 15:52:17
` talks about different hybrid control 15:52:22
` strategies, including a thermostat algorithm. 15:52:29
` Q. And do you see going down about six 15:52:36
` lines, it says: 15:52:40
` "Although the APU may be operating 15:52:42
` at its most efficient point, the losses in the 15:52:45
` LLD from excessive cycling may surpass the 15:52:48
`
`Page 19
`
` savings from an optimized APU." 15:52:54
` Do you see that? 15:53:11
` A. Yes, I found it. 15:53:11
` Q. Do you agree that in thermostat 15:53:12
` mode, there are losses in the LLD from 15:53:15
` excessive cycling? 15:53:20
` A. Could you repeat the question, 15:53:30
` please? 15:53:31
` Q. Do you agree with Anderson that in 15:53:32
` thermostat mode, the losses in the LLD from 15:53:39
` excessive cycling may surpass the savings from 15:53:39
` an optimized APU? 15:53:42
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:53:46
` A. I don't know -- when you say do I 15:53:51
` agree with the statement, in what sense? Have 15:53:54
` I done a specific calculation to -- on a 15:53:58
` specific vehicle to see whether or not that 15:54:01
` sentence is exactly true for a given system? 15:54:02
` Or what -- 15:54:06
` Q. Would one of ordinary skill in the 15:54:09
` art understand that thermostat mode results in 15:54:11
` excessive cycling of the LLD? 15:54:17
` A. I think that one of ordinary skill 15:54:21
` would understand that in a thermostat mode, 15:54:27
` when the engine is operating at a constant 15:54:47
`
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` power level as it shows in Figure 5 at the top, 15:54:50
` that during the operation of the vehicle, then 15:54:55
` the battery power level will vary, fluctuate, 15:54:58
` as shown also in Figure 5, and so one of 15:55:03
` ordinary skill would see that, yes, the battery 15:55:08
` is being cycled a lot during the operation of 15:55:11
` the vehicle in this mode. 15:55:19
` Q. And that cycling would result in 15:55:22
` strain on the LLD, correct? 15:55:25
` A. Anderson talks about this issue in 15:55:31
` her paper. On Page 8, for example, the first 15:55:38
` column at the top talks about the life -- I'm 15:55:58
` sorry. Excuse me, that's not what I want to 15:56:06
` refer to. 15:56:11
` So at the bottom of Page 6, Column 15:56:27
` 1, she talks about the life of the battery: 15:56:42
` "Unfortunately, most available data 15:56:48
` on battery life is of limited applicability to 15:56:52
` hybrid systems. The complexities of the 15:56:53
` reactions within batteries make it almost 15:56:55
` impossible to predict battery life except as a 15:56:57
` questionable extrapolation of empirical data. 15:57:00
` Although few quantitative predictions of 15:57:04
` battery life are available, some qualitative 15:57:07
` statements can be made. 15:57:18
`
`Page 21
`
` "1. A lead acid battery will degrade 15:57:21
` more (per a throughput kWh) if cycled deeply 15:57:24
` (cycled through a wide range of SOCs) than 15:57:41
` shallowly. The long-term effects of 15:57:52
` microcycling (cycling over a small range of 15:57:55
` SOCs) are not fully known. 15:58:01
` "2. A battery will last longer if it 15:58:08
` has lower energy throughput. 15:58:10
` "3. Hard cycling (high power 15:58:12
` cycling), even hard microcycling, will shorten 15:58:15
` the life." 15:58:22
` Q. Does this hard cycling that Anderson 15:58:25
` refers to, is that -- strike that. 15:58:32
` The hard cycling that Anderson 15:58:34
` refers to, would that result in a greater 15:58:37
` strain on the LLD, as Anderson references on 15:58:41
` Page 7? 15:58:45
` I'm referring to the sentence that 15:58:55
` we discussed earlier today. 15:58:56
` MS. SHAH: Objection, form. 15:59:00
` A. So can we be more specific now about 15:59:06
` what kind of vehicle we're talking about and 15:59:12
` what exactly is the situation that you're 15:59:17
` describing? 15:59:21
` Q. From the context of this 15:59:24
`
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
` 6
`
`

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`Page 22
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`Page 24
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` paragraph -- strike that. 15:59:25
` From the context of the sentence 15:59:29
` which reads, "Some of this effect can be 15:59:30
` reduced using a hybrid strategy that only 15:59:32
` allows slow transients, but this places greater 15:59:35
` strain on the LLD," can you tell me whether or 15:59:40
` not the strain mentioned in that sentence 15:59:49
` refers to hard cycling? 15:59:52
` A. I'm a little bit confused because 16:00:48
` we've talked about issues about the LLD in two 16:00:50
` different pages, right? We've talked about it 16:00:55
` in the sentence on Page 7 and also the sentence 16:00:58
` on Page 5. 16:01:01
`