UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL Board
`
` ____________________
`
`Page 1
`
` FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` -vs-
`
` PAICE, LLC & ABELL FOUNDATION, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _____________________
`
` U.S. Patent No. 7,237,634
`
` IPR Case Nos: IPR2015-00785
`
` IPR2015-00801 IPR2015-00792,
`
` ____________________
`
`
`
` Deposition of JEFFREY STEIN, PhD
` Tuesday, May 17, 2016
` Southfield, Michigan
` 3:45 p.m.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Reported by:
`Laura J. Steenbergh, CSR-3707, RPR, CRR, RMR
`Job no: 16344
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`PAICE 2218
`Ford v. Paice & Abell
`IPR2015-00792
`
`

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`Page 2
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` APPEARANCES:
`
` MR. FRANK ANGILERI, ESQ.
`
` MR. ANDREW B. TURNER, ESQ.
`
` Brooks Kushman, P.C.
`
` 1000 Town Center, 22nd Floor
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` Southfield, Michigan 48075
`
` (248) 358-4400
`
` fangileri@brookskushman.com
`
` aturner@brookskushman.com
`
` Appearing on behalf of the Petitioner.
`
` MR. BRIAN LIVEDALEN, ESQ.
`
` Fish & Richardson, P.C.
`
` 1425 K Street NW, 11th Floor
`
` Washington, DC 20005
`
` (202) 783-5050
`
` livedalen@fr.com
`
` Appearing on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`
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` TABLE OF CONTENTS
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`Page 3
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`Witness Page
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`JEFFREY STEIN, PhD
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`EXAMINATION BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 4
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` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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` (Exhibits attached to transcript)
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`Exhibit Page
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` STEIN EXHIBIT 1 Declaration of Jeffrey Stein 4
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` STEIN EXHIBIT 2 U.S. Patent Number 5,623,104 11
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`Page 4
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` Southfield, Michigan
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` Tuesday, May 17, 2016
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` About 3:45 p.m. 03:45:23PM
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: All right. Good afternoon, 03:45:23PM
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` Dr. Stein. 03:45:31PM
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` JEFFREY STEIN, PhD, 03:45:31PM
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` having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified 03:45:31PM
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` on his oath as follows: 03:45:31PM
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`EXAMINATION BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 03:45:31PM
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`Q. Do you mind repeating your full name for the record? 03:45:31PM
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`A. My name is Jeffrey L. Stein. 03:45:36PM
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: All right. And this 03:45:40PM
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` transcript is going to be for IPR matters 2015-00785 03:45:43PM
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` 2015-00801 2015-00792. 03:45:51PM
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` If the court reporter could hand Dr. Stein -- 03:45:58PM
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` I guess we'll mark as Exhibit 1 Ford 1889. 03:46:05PM
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` STEIN EXHIBIT 1 03:46:05PM
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` Declaration of Jeffrey Stein 03:46:05PM
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` WAS MARKED BY THE REPORTER 03:46:05PM
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` FOR IDENTIFICATION 03:46:37PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 03:46:37PM
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`Q. Dr. Stein, when you're ready can you please identify 03:46:44PM
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` Exhibit 1? 03:46:47PM
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`A. Deposition Exhibit 1 is the declaration of Dr. Stein in 03:46:47PM
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` support of petitioner's reply to patent owner's response 03:46:55PM
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`Page 5
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` for IPR2014-00801. 03:47:00PM
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`Q. Thanks. 03:47:05PM
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: And for the record I think it 03:47:09PM
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` should be IPR 2015 instead of 2014. That's fine. 03:47:10PM
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` MR. TURNER: Yes, you're correct. 03:47:20PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 03:47:21PM
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`Q. All right. Dr. Stein, are you familiar with the term 03:47:24PM
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` road load as used in the '634 patent? 03:47:31PM
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`A. It's discussed in my declaration and I believe I discuss 03:47:37PM
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` it also in my reply declaration, which is in front of 03:47:48PM
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` me. 03:47:54PM
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`Q. Yeah. So are you aware the Board construed the term 03:47:54PM
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` road load as the amount of instantaneous torque required 03:48:01PM
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` to propel the vehicle, be it positive or negative? 03:48:05PM
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`A. Well, without looking at it, to know if those words are 03:48:09PM
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` exactly correct, it sounds relatively correct. 03:48:18PM
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`Q. Well, if you want to confirm, can you turn to page 32 of 03:48:20PM
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` your declaration, paragraph 47. 03:48:24PM
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`A. Road load is the amount of instantaneous torque required 03:48:34PM
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` to propel the vehicle, be it positive or negative. 03:48:38PM
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` Yes, that's the Board's construction of that 03:48:41PM
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` term. 03:48:49PM
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`Q. And would you agree with me that the instantaneous 03:48:54PM
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` torque required to propel the vehicle included the 03:48:56PM
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` torque to overcome both vehicle drag and rolling 03:48:59PM
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`Page 6
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` resistance and to provide any vehicle acceleration? 03:49:01PM
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`A. Are you talking about what the physics of the problem 03:49:09PM
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` is? 03:49:13PM
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`Q. I'm talking about the words instantaneous torque 03:49:19PM
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` required to propel the vehicle as consistent with the 03:49:25PM
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` Board's construction, whether those words require the 03:49:27PM
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` torque to overcome both vehicle drag and rolling 03:49:33PM
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` resistance to provide any vehicle acceleration? 03:49:42PM
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`A. I'm sorry, you broke up there, I didn't catch the last 03:49:44PM
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` part of your statement. 03:49:47PM
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`Q. Sure. 03:49:49PM
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` Does the instantaneous torque required to 03:49:53PM
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` propel the vehicle as set forth in the Board's 03:49:55PM
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` construction include the torque to overcome both vehicle 03:49:59PM
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` drag and rolling resistance to provide any vehicle 03:50:03PM
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` acceleration? 03:50:07PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 03:50:11PM
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` THE WITNESS: If I was talking to my students 03:50:12PM
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` and teaching them about the torque that is required to 03:50:22PM
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` propel a vehicle, what are some of the factors that 03:50:32PM
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` contribute to the torque required to propel the 03:50:38PM
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` vehicles, then some of those factors would include the 03:50:46PM
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` inertia of the vehicle and, therefore, the acceleration 03:50:49PM
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` of the vehicle. Also the acceleration of any rotating 03:50:52PM
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` parts, friction of rotating parts, aerodynamic drag 03:50:58PM
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` considerations, so moving the vehicle through the air, 03:51:06PM
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` the wind, grade. There's lots of things that contribute 03:51:10PM
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` to the overall torque required to propel the vehicle, 03:51:14PM
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` and in a discussion with my students I would talk about 03:51:19PM
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` lots of these different issues. 03:51:24PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 03:51:26PM
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`Q. Okay. Would you turn with me to page 28 to your reply 03:51:27PM
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` to declaration. 03:51:50PM
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`A. Okay. I'm on page 28. 03:51:57PM
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`Q. And do you see at Roman Numeral V you talk about the 03:52:02PM
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` combination of Severinsky '970 and Suga discloses the 03:52:09PM
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` additional FUDS limitations of Claims 291 and 266? 03:52:15PM
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` Do you see that? 03:52:18PM
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`A. Yes. 03:52:20PM
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`Q. So if you want to look on page five of your declaration, 03:52:21PM
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` which is the index of exhibits. 03:52:30PM
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`A. Yes. 03:52:39PM
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`Q. Would you agree with me that Suga is shorthand for U.S. 03:52:39PM
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` Patent Number 5,623,104? 03:52:46PM
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`A. It should be said in my -- in my declaration here, but 03:52:50PM
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` -- 03:53:18PM
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`Q. It's Exhibit Number 1857. 03:53:18PM
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`A. Right. I see the listing there, and I'm just looking 03:53:24PM
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` for the cite within the text, which I don't see, but I 03:53:30PM
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` may have done it elsewhere and not repeated it here. 03:53:34PM
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` But Suga does refer to that exhibit to that patent. 03:53:39PM
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`Q. Okay. So we can agree that Suga refers to U.S. Patent 03:53:46PM
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` Number 5,623,104, is that right? 03:53:52PM
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`A. Yes. 03:53:56PM
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`Q. Okay. Why don't you take a minute and read your opinion 03:53:56PM
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` here about combination of Severinsky '970 and Suga and 03:54:12PM
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` let me know when you're ready. 03:54:21PM
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`A. Okay. 03:54:22PM
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` Okay. 03:59:28PM
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`Q. Dr. Stein, do you contend anywhere in your reply 03:59:29PM
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` declaration that Suga relates to sizing the motor in a 03:59:41PM
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` hybrid electric vehicle? 03:59:47PM
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`A. Could you repeat that, please? The communication line 03:59:52PM
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` is still not working very well. I want to make sure I 03:59:58PM
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` heard your question. 04:00:02PM
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`Q. Sure. 04:00:03PM
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` So you don't contend, do you, that Suga 04:00:04PM
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` relates to sizing an electric motor in a hybrid electric 04:00:10PM
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` vehicle, right? 04:00:15PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 04:00:24PM
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` THE WITNESS: I think that, I'm not looking at 04:00:25PM
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` the patent at the moment, but generally from my 04:00:39PM
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` understanding of that reference, which I cite here, is 04:00:41PM
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` that it provides a test procedure for electric motors in 04:00:48PM
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` the context of driving cycles, and in particular calls 04:00:54PM
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` out the FUDS driving schedule, and it provides a way to 04:01:00PM
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` look at the performance of a motor that you wish to 04:01:08PM
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` test, select for use to see whether or not -- or to see 04:01:13PM
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` what its characteristics are, how well it performs in 04:01:20PM
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` the context of the -- a driving cycle, and the FUDS 04:01:25PM
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` driving cycle being an example that it mentions 04:01:30PM
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` specifically. 04:01:33PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:01:39PM
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`Q. But Suga never says that the disclosed electric motor is 04:01:40PM
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` for use in a hybrid vehicle, right? 04:01:48PM
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`A. Say that again, please? 04:01:51PM
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`Q. Sitting here today are you aware of any disclosure in 04:01:55PM
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` Suga that Suga's disclosed test procedure is related to 04:02:01PM
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` an electric motor intended to be used in a hybrid 04:02:09PM
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` electric vehicle? 04:02:11PM
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`A. It says it is in generally speaking here. I'm, again, 04:02:12PM
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` not looking at the reference. And we can go through the 04:02:24PM
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` reference line-by-line if you'd like to look at perhaps 04:02:27PM
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` more detailed language. But in general it, as I've 04:02:33PM
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` mentioned, is for testing for purposes of design and 04:02:38PM
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` optimization of vehicle electrically driven powertrain, 04:02:52PM
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` of which a hybrid electric vehicle is a characteristic 04:02:57PM
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` member of that class of problems. And in particular, as 04:03:07PM
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` my declaration points out, hybrid electric vehicles have 04:03:12PM
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` electric only modes, and in fact some hybrid electric 04:03:17PM
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` vehicles have ways of designing the system so that it is 04:03:22PM
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` forced to stay in the electric only mode for operation 04:03:29PM
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` in zero emission vehicle environments. 04:03:33PM
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`Q. So sitting here today though, are you aware of any 04:03:41PM
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` disclosure in the Suga reference about applying a test 04:03:43PM
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` procedure to an electric motor in a hybrid electric 04:03:48PM
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` vehicle? 04:03:51PM
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`A. I think I just answered that. I think that it does 04:03:51PM
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` provide for that. 04:03:57PM
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`Q. So it's your testimony that Suga explicitly says that 04:03:58PM
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` the disclosed test procedure applies to a motor to be 04:04:04PM
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` used in a hybrid electric vehicle? 04:04:08PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, misstates the 04:04:11PM
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` witness's testimony. 04:04:16PM
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` THE WITNESS: Yes, I didn't say that it uses 04:04:16PM
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` the word hybrid electric vehicle. I'm not sure if it 04:04:18PM
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` does or not. I can check the reference, but it makes it 04:04:20PM
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` clear that it is a procedure for testing an electric 04:04:25PM
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` motor in the context of a vehicle designed to be powered 04:04:29PM
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` by that motor. So in the context of a hybrid electric 04:04:36PM
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` vehicle that one wanted to design the motor to operate 04:04:43PM
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` completely on the electric motor for meeting the demands 04:04:55PM
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` of a particular driving cycle, be it FUDS or other city 04:05:05PM
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` driving, then it seems to me that that is what one of 04:05:09PM
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` the uses of the -- what is being taught in the Suga 04:05:18PM
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` patent. 04:05:24PM
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` MR. LIVEDALEN: All right. If we could mark 04:05:29PM
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` U.S. Patent Number 5,623,104, Laura, as Exhibit 2. 04:05:32PM
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` STEIN EXHIBIT 2 04:05:32PM
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` U.S. Patent Number 5,623,104 04:05:32PM
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` WAS MARKED BY THE REPORTER 04:05:32PM
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` FOR IDENTIFICATION 04:06:37PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:06:37PM
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`Q. And Dr. Stein, when you're ready, can you please 04:06:37PM
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` identify Exhibit Number 2? 04:06:39PM
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`A. Exhibit Number 2 is patent number 5,623,104, with 04:06:40PM
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` inventor Hiroshi Suga -- H-I-R-O-S-H-I. 04:06:46PM
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`Q. And that's the Suga reference we've been talking about? 04:06:55PM
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`A. Yes. 04:06:58PM
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`Q. Okay. Could you turn to Column Number 1 for me? 04:07:00PM
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`A. Yes, I'm there. 04:07:09PM
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`Q. Could you read out loud lines 6 through 10 of Column 1? 04:07:22PM
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`A. This invention relates to an apparatus for testing 04:07:27PM
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` electric motor performance, and more particularly, to an 04:07:32PM
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` apparatus for testing the power performance of an 04:07:39PM
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` electric motor for an electric vehicle. 04:07:42PM
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`Q. So would you agree with me, right, that Suga discloses a 04:07:48PM
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` specific apparatus for testing the power performance of 04:07:55PM
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` an electric motor or an electric vehicle, right? 04:07:59PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 04:08:02PM
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` THE WITNESS: I would -- I can tell you that 04:08:07PM
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` the -- I read the first sentence of the patent. I'm not 04:08:09PM
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` sure if you have a question about that. 04:08:17PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:08:19PM
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`Q. So you would or you would you not agree with me that 04:08:38PM
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` Suga relates to a particular apparatus for testing the 04:08:42PM
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` performance of an electric motor for an electric 04:08:45PM
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` vehicle? 04:08:49PM
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`A. That is what this invention relates to, an apparatus for 04:08:50PM
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` testing the electric motor performance, and that's what 04:09:05PM
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` we're talking about here today, sizing the electric 04:09:08PM
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` motor, and the power performance of an electric motor, 04:09:11PM
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` and that's what the claim is talking about for an 04:09:15PM
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` electric vehicle. And what we're talking about here is 04:09:20PM
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` a vehicle that's being powered by an electric motor 04:09:24PM
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` only, and I would call that an electric vehicle. 04:09:28PM
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`Q. Sorry, there's one part of your answer which I don't 04:10:10PM
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` quite understand. You say that in the power performance 04:10:30PM
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` of an electric motor that's what the claim is talking 04:10:33PM
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` about for an electric vehicle. What do you mean that's 04:10:36PM
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` what the claim is talking about? 04:10:41PM
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`A. So I -- in this part of my declaration talking about 04:10:42PM
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` using the combination of Severinsky '970 and the Suga 04:10:52PM
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` patent, the '104, I'm using those to show Claims 291 and 04:10:58PM
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` 266 of the '634 patent are unpatentable. And the part 04:11:14PM
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` that I'm using the Suga reference for is in relation to 04:11:30PM
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` the claim limitation that talks about wherein at least 04:11:36PM
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` one electric motor is sufficiently powerful to provide 04:11:46PM
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` acceleration of said vehicle sufficient to conform to 04:11:49PM
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` the Federal Urban Driving Cycle Mileage Test without the 04:11:53PM
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` use of torque from an engine to propel the vehicle. 04:11:57PM
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` So one of ordinary skill would understand that 04:12:01PM
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` this is the vehicle being operated in what is often 04:12:05PM
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` called EV mode, electric vehicle mode. And the claim 04:12:10PM
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` here is to -- that the electric motor that is being used 04:12:17PM
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` in the vehicle is capable of propelling the vehicle to 04:12:27PM
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` conform with the Federal Urban Driving Cycle. And 04:12:36PM
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` exactly what the Suga reference is suggesting that its 04:12:44PM
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` invention is for is the evaluation of an electric motor 04:12:50PM
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` that's going to be used in an electric vehicle or a 04:12:56PM
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` hybrid electric vehicle that's in electric vehicle mode 04:13:03PM
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` to evaluate it relative to, amongst other things, 04:13:08PM
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` driving cycles, such as the FUDS driving cycle. 04:13:14PM
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`Q. You don't have any evidence in your reply declaration, 04:13:28PM
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` right, that when a reference disclosing an EV mode or a 04:13:33PM
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` ZEV mode is a reference to the requirement that the 04:13:40PM
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` motor be sufficiently large to provide sufficient 04:13:46PM
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` acceleration to perform the Federal Urban Driving Cycle 04:13:50PM
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` Test, is that right? 04:13:54PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague, compound. 04:13:55PM
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`Page 14
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` THE WITNESS: I didn't understand your 04:13:58PM
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` question. Could you rephrase it, please? 04:13:59PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:14:01PM
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`Q. You don't have any evidence in your reply declaration, 04:14:07PM
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` right, that the reference to an EV mode in a hybrid 04:14:09PM
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` vehicle is a reference that the motor in that hybrid 04:14:16PM
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` vehicle being large enough to provide sufficient 04:14:20PM
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` acceleration to conform to the Federal Urban Driving 04:14:24PM
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` Cycle Test, right? 04:14:27PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 04:14:31PM
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` THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't -- I still don't 04:14:32PM
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` understand your question. Could you break it down into 04:14:34PM
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` smaller parts perhaps? 04:14:37PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:14:38PM
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`Q. Nope. I think my point or my question is, do you or 04:14:41PM
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` don't you have evidence in your reply declaration that 04:14:49PM
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` the reference to an EV mode in a hybrid vehicle is a 04:14:52PM
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` reference that the motor in that hybrid vehicle is large 04:15:01PM
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` enough to provide sufficient acceleration to conform to 04:15:04PM
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` the Federal Urban Driving Test? 04:15:08PM
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`A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question. 04:15:16PM
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`Q. All right. Do you want to go to paragraph 43, your 04:15:22PM
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` reply declaration? 04:16:11PM
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`A. Okay. I'm there. 04:16:12PM
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`Q. Are you familiar with what Severinsky '970 calls a 04:16:13PM
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`Page 15
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` low-speed mode? 04:16:19PM
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`A. Generally speaking, yes. 04:16:23PM
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`Q. And do you cite any -- okay. Strike that. 04:16:25PM
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` What's happening in low-speed mode in 04:16:33PM
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` Severinsky '970? 04:16:36PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 04:16:39PM
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` THE WITNESS: You know, your question is very 04:16:40PM
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` broad, but I will answer in part by saying that in 04:16:45PM
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` low-speed mode that this is a mode, as it's written 04:16:56PM
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` here, Low-speed acceleration -- up to about 25 miles an 04:17:03PM
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` hour -- the hybrid vehicle, excuse me -- is powered by 04:17:18PM
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` the motor 20 alone. And that's a quote actually from 04:17:21PM
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` Severinsky, Column 14, lines 34 through 35, suggesting 04:17:28PM
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` that the motor is sufficiently powerful to provide 04:17:35PM
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` sufficient acceleration to conform to the FUDS test. 04:17:38PM
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` And then I go on to say, since Severinsky '970 04:17:44PM
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` HEV operates much like an electric vehicle in low speed 04:17:49PM
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` mode it would have been obvious to a person of ordinary 04:17:54PM
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` skill in the art to test Severinsky's electric motor 04:17:58PM
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` using the electric vehicle test apparatus disclosed in 04:18:01PM
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` Suga to confirm that it meets the FUDS test. And I said 04:18:06PM
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` that in my original declaration for -- as well. 04:18:12PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:18:16PM
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`Q. So the FUDS test has specific acceleration requirements, 04:18:22PM
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` right? 04:18:26PM
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`Page 16
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, vague. 04:18:33PM
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` THE WITNESS: The FUDS -- 04:18:39PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:18:41PM
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`Q. Dr. Stein, are you familiar with the FUDS test? 04:18:43PM
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`A. So the FUDS test, like many driving cycle tests, are 04:18:45PM
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` patterns of velocity typically that a car is intended to 04:18:50PM
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` be driven through, whether by a driver or a machine, 04:19:02PM
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` that it's supposed to exercise the vehicle or vehicle 04:19:09PM
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` systems in a way that represents some kind of typical 04:19:14PM
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` experience or average experience that the car might -- 04:19:19PM
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` might have in normal use. And so the FUDS is a driving 04:19:27PM
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` cycle for the city, and as I remember, I think it's for 04:19:39PM
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` a cycle that was all through the streets of Los Angeles, 04:19:47PM
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` driving in that area. I'd have to check my references 04:19:51PM
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` to be sure. There are lots of different driving cycles. 04:19:56PM
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` And to follow the velocity profile you have to be able 04:19:59PM
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` to accelerate and decelerate according to the -- to the 04:20:04PM
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` driving cycle specification. It's meant to represent, 04:20:19PM
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` in this case, a typical, potentially typical driving 04:20:29PM
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` experience, I believe, in Los Angeles. 04:20:34PM
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`Q. Okay. But nowhere in Severinsky '970 does he state that 04:20:39PM
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` the motor is sized to comply with the FUDS cycle, is 04:20:48PM
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` that right? 04:20:57PM
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`A. I don't believe that Severinsky '970 specifically 04:20:59PM
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` mentions the FUDS cycle, test cycle. 04:21:18PM
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`Page 17
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`Q. And -- 04:21:23PM
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`A. But one of ordinary skill would understand that in the 04:21:27PM
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` designing any vehicle, hybrid electric, electric, 04:21:30PM
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` conventional vehicle, that one uses driving schedules as 04:21:35PM
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` a way of designing and evaluating their vehicle that 04:21:42PM
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` they are designing or the components that they are 04:21:58PM
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` selecting for their vehicle. This is a completely 04:22:00PM
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` standard thing, that's why the driving cycles exist, one 04:22:03PM
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` of the reasons the driving cycles exist. 04:22:09PM
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`Q. So in your reply declaration you have not cited any 04:22:19PM
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` prior art reference that discloses sizing of a motor in 04:22:31PM
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` the hybrid electric vehicle to conform to the FUDS test, 04:22:40PM
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` correct? 04:22:44PM
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` MR. TURNER: Objection, misstates testimony. 04:22:46PM
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` THE WITNESS: Specifically Suga calls out the 04:22:54PM
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` FUDS driving cycle and it has an apparatus for 04:22:58PM
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` evaluating and testing the motor that one would like to 04:23:02PM
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` evaluate and to -- in optimizing the design of their 04:23:13PM
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` vehicle. 04:23:24PM
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`BY MR. LIVEDALEN: 04:23:29PM
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`Q. So sitting here today you can't identify anywhere in 04:23:31PM
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` Suga the disclosure of a motor to be used in a hybrid 04:23:36PM
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` vehicle, right? 04:23:57PM
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`A. The claim talks about a motor sufficiently powerful to 04:23:58PM
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` provide the acceleration of a vehicle sufficient to 04:24:23PM
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`Page 18
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` conform to the Federal Urban Driving Cycle without use 04:24:29PM
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` of the torque from the engine to propel the vehicle. So 04:24:38PM
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` that is describing a vehicle that is operating as an 04:24:43PM
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` electric vehicle. And Suga talks about testing a motor 04:24:54PM
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` for a vehicle that's powered by an electric motor and 04:25:02PM
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` subjecting that motor to the -- to a driving cycle such 04:25:13PM
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` as the FUDS driving cycle as a way of testing, 04:25:27PM
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` selecting, designing the optimum system. 04:25:33PM
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`Q. So it's your opinion that Suga is relevant because the