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`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` J SQUARED, INC. d/b/a )
` UNIVERSITY LOFT COMPANY, )
` )Case IPR2015-00774
` Petitioner, )Case IPR2015-00958
` )Patent 8,585,136
` vs. )
` )
`SAUDER MANUFACTURING )Oblon Docket No.:
`COMPANY, )464032US and
` )464045US
` Patent Owner. )
`----------------------------)
`
` DEPOSITION OF DAVID G. HARTING
` Troy, Michigan
` Wednesday, January 20, 2016
`
`Reported by:
`Paula S. Raskin, CSR-4757
`JOB NO. 102144
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
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`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 1
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 2
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`Page 3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` OBLON, MCCLELLAND, MAIER & NEUSTADT
` Attorneys for Petitioner
` 1940 Duke Street
` Alexandria, Virginia 22314
` BY: SCOTT MCKEOWN, ESQ.
` RUBY NATNITHITHADHA, ESQ.
`and
` BAHRET & ASSOCIATES
` Attorney for Petitioner
` 320 North Meridian Street
` Indianapolis, Indiana 46204
` BY: WILLIAM BAHRET, ESQ.
`
` YOUNG BASILE HANLON & MACFARLANE
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 3001 West Big Beaver Road
` Troy, Michigan 48084
` BY: THOMAS YOUNG, ESQ.
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Phil Bontrager
`
`Page 5
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`subject matter of your inquiry that will be
`common to both IPRs. So I think it makes
`sense, as you propose, to have that all in
`one transcript, but I will, however, insist
`that the issues of the IPRs be kept
`entirely separate; not necessarily in
`separate transcripts, but separate in terms
`of the examination, no crossover between
`them.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Well, to the extent
`that we're talking about one IPR as
`compared to another, I think we'll make the
`transcript clear which one we're talking
`about. That's the plan anyway.
` MR. YOUNG: All right. My
`preference is when you get to the
`substantive issues, that you continue
`through one IPR and all of those issues
`without getting into the other; and when
`you're done with that, say so, and then
`we'll get into the other IPR and the issues
`that are unique to it.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay. To the extent
`that we get into issues like that, I'll
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` January 20, 2016
` 9:43 a.m.
`
` Deposition of DAVID G. HARTING, held
`at the offices of Young Basile Hanlon &
`MacFarlane, PC, 3001 West Big Beaver Road,
`Suite 624, Troy, Michigan, before Paula
`Raskin, CSR-4757, a Notary Public of the
`State of Michigan.
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`Page 4
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`D A V I D G. H A R T I N G,
` called as a witness, having been duly sworn
` by a Notary Public, was examined and
` testified as follows:
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay. Tom, did you
` have some issues?
` MR. YOUNG: Yes. Mr. McKeown, we
` note that you have noticed Mr. Harting, as
` well as the other two witnesses, for two
` depositions. Do you plan to take them
` separately and in series?
` MR. MCKEOWN: I was contemplating
` just doing one deposition where, at least I
` think for Mr. Harting, the declarations
` that were submitted in both were identical,
` unless I'm missing something. So I think
` we can just simply -- I don't see the need
` for separate proceedings unless you see a
` point for that.
` MR. YOUNG: Okay. Well, two points:
` The IPRs have not been consolidated. They
` are separate and they have their own
` separate and distinct issues.
` I'm ready to admit that there's -- I
` expect in this deposition, there will be
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`2
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`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 2
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 6
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`make clear which IPR we're talking about.
`I'm not sure that we'll get to that level
`of granularity, but I'll keep that in mind.
` MR. YOUNG: Fair enough. The other
`is confidentiality. I don't see a need to
`have this transcript classified unless you
`feel otherwise.
` MR. MCKEOWN: I certainly won't be
`disclosing any confidential information of
`my client. To the extent anything comes up
`in the questioning, feel free to designate
`it as appropriate.
` MR. YOUNG: Okay. I'll keep my eye
`out for it. I doubt that there will be
`unless and until we get to Mr. Bontrager
`somewhere down the line.
` The last thing I want to mention to
`you is I am aware of your concerns with
`respect to getting home and so forth.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay.
` MR. YOUNG: I'm perfectly willing to
`accommodate you. We can carry the
`proceedings forward other than during
`normal business hours if it looks like
`
`Page 8
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`member of the Bar of the State of Michigan
`and represent the patent owners, Sauder
`Manufacturing Company, in both of the IPRs
`for which this deposition is being taken.
` And to my left...
` MR. BONTRAGER: I'm Philip E.
`Bontrager, president and CEO of Sauder
`Manufacturing, the patent owner that is the
`subject of the two IPR petitions.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Thank you. I'm joined
`today by two additional individuals. I'll
`start with the person immediately to my
`right.
` MR. BAHRET: I am to your right.
` Yes, I'm Bill Bahret. I'm with the
`firm of Bahret & Associates in
`Indianapolis, and I represent the
`petitioner, University Loft Company.
` MS. NATNITHITHADHA: My name is Ruby
`Natnithithadha, and I work with Scott at
`Oblon.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Spell your last name,
`please.
` MS. NATNITHITHADHA:
`
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`Page 7
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`that's necessary from your practical
`standpoint. I do wish to accommodate you
`in that regard.
` MR. MCKEOWN: I appreciate that.
` MR. YOUNG: Okay. Then with that,
`away we go.
` MR. MCKEOWN: All right. Can you
`please state your name for the record.
` THE WITNESS: David Harting,
`H-A-R-T-I-N-G.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Good morning,
`Mr. Harting. My name is Scott McKeown, and
`I'm an attorney for University Loft. I'll
`be asking you some questions today about
`some declarations that you've submitted in
`some USPTO proceedings.
` Would the gentlemen to your right
`like to enter their appearances into the
`record?
` MR. YOUNG: Actually I'm to his
`left.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Sorry. My right.
` MR. YOUNG: My name is Thomas Young.
`I am a registered patent attorney and a
`
`Page 9
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`N-A-T-N-I-T-H-I-T-H-A-D-H-A.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Mr. Harting, have you
`ever been deposed before?
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
` MR. MCKEOWN: So you're generally
`familiar with the way the process works.
` THE WITNESS: Generally.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay. Just as a
`reminder, we have a court reporter here, so
`I would just ask that you speak loudly and
`clearly, no head nods. We're creating a
`paper transcript, so we want to make sure
`that the information and the exchange is
`just clear on the record.
` THE WITNESS: Will do.
` MR. MCKEOWN: To the extent you need
`a break for any reason, feel free to just
`ask for it. As long as there's no question
`pending, I have no problem stopping
`whenever you feel the need.
` Your counsel may object to the
`format or different issues with my
`questioning, but you understand that unless
`you're instructed not to answer, you're
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`3
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 3
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 10
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` still expected to answer my questions.
` THE WITNESS: I do.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay.
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MCKEOWN:
` Q. Hand you a copy of an exhibit that's
`been previously marked Sauder Exhibit 2039.
` MR. YOUNG: Thank you.
` Q. Do you recognize this exhibit,
`Mr. Harting?
` A. I do.
` Q. And what is it?
` A. It is my declaration.
` Q. If you turn to Page 13, that's your
`signature there, correct?
` A. It is.
` Q. Is there anything you want to change
`in this declaration?
` A. There is not.
` Q. So there's no corrections or
`mistakes that you've learned about since you've
`signed it?
` A. There are some typos, but they don't
`affect the content.
`
`Page 12
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`worked on it?
` A. It was the span of time I worked on
`it.
` Q. How much time would you estimate
`that you spent actually working on the
`declaration?
` A. I seem to recall it was around 40
`hours.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I don't recall precisely.
` Q. Did you author all of the text in
`this declaration?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. Did you work with anyone to prepare
`this declaration?
` A. What do you mean by work with?
` Q. Well, presumably you drafted this
`declaration in cooperation with someone else
`that was --
` A. My attorney asked me to prepare it,
`yes.
` Q. Is there anyone else you worked with
`that had input to this declaration?
` A. No.
`
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`Page 11
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. So no substantive issues.
` A. No.
` Q. So as we mentioned at the outset,
`this declaration was submitted in two
`proceedings. So unless we get to issues that
`are unique to one IPR over the other, I'm
`simply going to reference this as your
`declaration. If at any time you're unclear
`about that reference or you think we're getting
`into issues that are unique to one IPR over the
`other, I'll certainly try to alert you to it,
`but if you notice something like that, please
`let me know.
` How long did you spend preparing
`this declaration?
` A. I think it was about two weeks.
` Q. Two weeks, okay. Do you remember
`the time frame?
` A. It was late October into November.
` Q. Of 2000...
` A. 2015. It may have been three weeks.
` Q. Okay. So when you say you spent
`three weeks, was that you spent a full three
`weeks on this, or that's the span of time you
`
`Page 13
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. Were there drafts of this
`declaration before this version was submitted?
` A. I did have drafts of that
`declaration, yes.
` Q. Do you recall how many?
` A. I don't.
` Q. Did you save those drafts?
` A. I did. Unfortunately my wife
`reformatted the computer that I had borrowed
`from her and they are no longer in existence.
` Q. Did you communicate the drafts to
`anyone?
` A. I had sent those drafts to my
`attorney.
` Q. Through e-mail or...
` A. Through e-mail.
` Q. Do you know, maybe I'm not
`pronouncing his name correctly but another
`person that will be deposed today, Anthony
`Warncke?
` A. I do.
` Q. And who is he?
` A. He's an employee of Sauder
`Manufacturing and he's an engineer that's
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`4
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 4
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 14
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`familiar with the project.
` Q. Did you discuss this declaration
`with him?
` A. Not -- no.
` Q. So at no point did you discuss this
`declaration with him?
` A. No.
` Q. Were any of the drafts communicated
`to him?
` A. No.
` Q. And Mr. --
` MR. MCKEOWN: Am I pronouncing --
` Bontrager?
` MR. BONTRAGER: Bontrager.
` Q. Do you know Mr. Bontrager?
` A. I do.
` Q. And who is he?
` A. He's the president and CEO of Sauder
`Manufacturing.
` Q. And did you discuss this declaration
`with him at any point?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you communicate any of the
`drafts to him at any point?
`
`Page 16
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. Was there anyone else present during
`those meetings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Who else?
` A. Mr. Bontrager and Mr. Warncke and
`Mr. Jacob.
` Q. Who is Mr. Jacob?
` A. He is another attorney.
` Q. Another attorney at this firm?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you meet with anyone via
`telephone?
` A. At what point?
` Q. At any point during your
`preparation.
` A. I spoke to Mr. Young over the phone
`in October and November.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I didn't speak with anyone over the
`phone this week besides my wife.
` Q. So during the meetings with your
`attorney, there were no -- well, strike that.
` During the meeting with your
`attorney, there was no one patched in on
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`Page 15
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` A. No.
` Q. Did you do anything to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A. I reviewed all the relevant
`documents.
` Q. And what relevant documents were
`they?
` A. The IPRs, all the patents that are
`referenced, and my declaration.
` Q. Anything else?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you meet with anyone to perform
`that preparation?
` A. That preparation, I read -- I
`performed by myself before I got here.
` Q. Okay. When did you get here?
` A. I got here on Monday.
` Q. Did you meet with anyone here to
`prepare for your deposition?
` A. I met with my attorney.
` Q. And how long did you meet with your
`attorney?
` A. I guess that was about -- let's
`see -- well, portions of two days.
`
`Page 17
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`teleconference?
` A. No.
` Q. Okay. I'm handing you a document
`that's been previously marked, J Squared,
`Incorporated, Exhibit 1001.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. I do.
` Q. You see at the top there's a
`paragraph labeled "(75) Inventors:" Do you see
`that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Do you know these inventors?
` A. I know two of them.
` Q. Which two?
` A. Mr. Warncke and Mr. Hagerty.
` Q. You do not know Mr. Jameson?
` A. I know of Mr. Jameson. I don't
`believe I've ever met him.
` Q. You see immediately below that
`section "Inventors," it reads "Assignee: Sauder
`Manufacturing"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. That's currently your employer,
`correct?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`5
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 5
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 18
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` A. No.
` Q. That's not your employer?
` A. No.
` Q. Oh, excuse me. Who is your current
`employer?
` A. I am currently a member of Eleven
`Point Five, which is an LLC firm in Boston.
` Q. And what is the business of Eleven
`Point Five?
` A. Product development.
` Q. And how was that -- how is Eleven
`Point Five -- well, strike that.
` Is Eleven Point Five in any way
`related with Eleven?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is that relationship?
` A. Eleven conducts business under a fee
`for service agreement, and Eleven Point Five
`conducts business under royalty licensing
`agreements.
` Q. So just so the record's clear, we're
`talking about Eleven, LLC.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So, sorry, you said Eleven Point
`
`Page 20
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`contracts.
` Q. And what is Eleven Point Five's
`current relationship with Sauder?
` A. They receive royalties on products
`that were designed for Sauder.
` Q. All products?
` A. What do you mean by all products?
` Q. All products designed for Sauder.
` A. Yes. All the products that were
`designed for Sauder by Eleven Point Five they
`receive royalties on.
` Q. So going back to Exhibit 1001, does
`Eleven Point Five have a licensing arrangement
`relating to products that fall under this
`patent?
` A. It's actually Eleven on this patent.
`I believe that was an error at the time that
`the original licensing agreement was made.
` Q. Okay.
` A. But the checks are deposited in
`Eleven Point Five.
` Q. Okay. So royalty checks flow from
`Sauder to Eleven Point Five based on this '136
`patent?
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`Page 19
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`Five does what?
` A. They do the same thing; they both
`develop products. The financial contracts are
`different between the two businesses.
` Q. At Paragraph 3 -- so referring back
`now to Exhibit 2039, at Paragraph 3 it says,
`"Eleven holds licenses on dozens of products."
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. Can you explain a little bit about
`that license arrangement?
` A. When clients are presented that
`essentially don't have the money to pay by the
`hour, we'll occasionally work out a royalty
`agreement with them instead of being paid by
`the hour.
` Q. And that royalty is on future
`products?
` A. Sales of products, yes.
` Q. And you said Eleven Point Five has a
`bit of a different business arrangement?
` A. Eleven Point Five is the company
`that holds the -- Eleven Point Five hires
`Eleven to create products. So the work that is
`done at Eleven, Eleven Point Five holds the
`
`Page 21
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` A. They actually flow to Eleven, but
`they're deposited into Eleven Point Five based
`on this patent, yes.
` Q. Can you explain your relationship
`with Sauder, starting with your first contact
`through to the present day?
` A. I met Tony Warncke and Kelvin
`Friesen at a DMI conference, and we were having
`breakfast together. I asked them what they
`did, they asked me what I did. They said they
`made church pews, and I said, "Have you ever
`considered making them comfortable?" and that
`relationship began.
` We eventually entered into a
`contract with them to look at dormitory
`furniture. We became aware that dormitory
`furniture was often sourced by colleges from
`the companies that make prison furniture; it's
`the same stuff. So we thought maybe we could
`do better.
` Q. Uh-huh.
` A. So they asked us to initiate a
`project that would research the college
`dormitory market and look at opportunities for
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`6
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`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 6
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 22
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`development for all pieces of furniture within
`the dorm room.
` Q. And what year was this?
` A. It was in the early 2000s.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I don't recall the exact date.
` Q. And you said you met Tony Warncke.
`That's the same Anthony Warncke that's listed
`as an inventor on the '136 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And there was another gentleman you
`named.
` A. Kelvin Friesen.
` Q. Okay.
` A. There may have been more people from
`Sauder around the table. I don't recall.
` Q. And at that time, you were employed
`by Eleven or Eleven Point Five?
` A. I was a member of both.
` Q. Are you still a member of both?
` A. I am a member of Eleven Point Five.
`I'm no longer a member of Eleven.
` Q. So since that initial project, what
`has been your business relationship with
`
`Page 24
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` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. What was it for 2015?
` A. I don't have that number at the top
`of my head.
` Q. If you had to guess in percentage of
`revenue, is it 1 percent, is it 80 percent?
` A. Percentage of what revenue?
` Q. Of Eleven Point Five's revenue.
` A. It is probably --
` MR. YOUNG: I'm going to object to
` the form of the question. I don't know
` that he has to guess.
` MR. MCKEOWN: Okay.
` Q. Let's -- your estimate.
` A. Isn't that a guess?
` Q. You said that you're operations
`officer and director of engineering for Eleven
`Point Five, correct?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And you're familiar with the revenue
`of the company?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So I'm asking you what
`percentage of revenue do you get from Sauder.
` A. I didn't prepare that, so I didn't
`
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`Sauder?
` A. Well, we developed concepts for many
`pieces of furniture. Eventually they asked us
`to focus on the task chair, and we developed
`that chair through to manufacturing and
`production.
` We subsequently were asked to
`develop some other pieces of furniture. We
`spent some time researching, but those did not
`come to -- some of those did not come to
`fruition.
` Q. Okay.
` A. We were asked to do some variations
`of the original chair, which we did through to
`production. That work ended some time ago,
`seven or eight years ago.
` Q. Today what is your business
`relationship with Sauder?
` A. I'm being deposed.
` Q. Does Eleven Point Five derive any
`revenue from Sauder today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And how much revenue is that?
` A. It's tied to sales, so it varies.
`
`Page 25
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
`review that in preparation for today.
` Q. So you don't know.
` A. I don't know.
` Q. And you don't know if it's 1 percent
`or you don't know if it's a hundred percent.
` A. It is neither 1 percent nor a
`hundred percent.
` Q. Is it 50 percent?
` A. It's probably not 50 percent.
` Q. Is it 30 percent?
` A. I can't say that it's precisely 30
`percent.
` Q. But it's somewhere between 1 percent
`and 30 percent?
` A. I can't say that either. I would
`have to guess.
` Q. So you're not prepared to quantify
`the amount of revenue that you get from Sauder
`today?
` A. I'm not prepared to guess.
` Q. I'm not asking you to guess. I'm
`asking you as -- in your capacity of director
`of engineering, I'm asking you to quantify the
`revenue from Sauder.
`
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`7
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 7
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 26
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` DAVID G. HARTING
` MR. YOUNG: Asked and answered.
` Q. Can you do that?
` A. Can I do what?
` Q. Can you quantify the revenue from
`Sauder?
` A. Not precisely, no. I'd have to
`guess.
` Q. If you don't want to answer the
`question, we can move on.
` A. I don't think I'm capable
`of answering the question.
` MR. YOUNG: That was not a question.
` MR. MCKEOWN: There's no speaking
` objections in these depositions.
` MR. YOUNG: But it wasn't a
` question.
` MR. MCKEOWN: You can object to form
` and that's it.
` Q. Do you have a billing rate?
` A. I have a billing rate.
` Q. And what is that?
` A. $125 an hour.
` Q. And was Sauder billed $125 an hour
`for this declaration?
`
`Page 28
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`Point Five?
` A. Uh-huh.
` MR. YOUNG: Try to say yes or no.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in that paragraph you identify
`Sauder Manufacturing as a partner. Is that
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is that the same Sauder
`Manufacturing that's --
` A. It is.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. MCKEOWN: I'll mark this
` Exhibit 1021.
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1021 MARKED
` FOR IDENTIFICATION at 10:11 a.m.)
` Q. Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It is a patent on the Sauder Trey
`chair.
` Q. Okay. Who is Benjamin Beck?
` A. He is an industrial designer and my
`business partner.
`
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And that's independent of the
`royalty revenue that comes in from Sauder?
` A. That's correct.
` MR. MCKEOWN: We'll mark this
` Exhibit 1020.
` (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT 1020 MARKED
` FOR IDENTIFICATION at 10:08 a.m.)
` Q. Do you recognize this exhibit,
`Mr. Harting?
` A. I do.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It looks like my LinkedIn profile.
` MR. YOUNG: Do you have another one?
` MR. MCKEOWN: Did I not give you
` two?
` (Off the record at 10:08 a.m.)
` (Back on the record at 10:09 a.m.)
` Q. So going back to Exhibit 1020, you
`see the heading "Experience" on this first page
`here?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And directly underneath that, there
`is a description about your work at Eleven
`
`Page 29
`
` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. And he is an inventor on this
`patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which is assigned to Sauder
`Manufacturing, correct?
` A. Uh-huh, yes.
` MR. YOUNG: Objection, relevance.
` Q. Let's go back to your declaration,
`if I can find it.
` Paragraph -- so let's talk about
`Paragraph 6. Let me know when you've got it in
`front of you.
` A. Got it.
` Q. This paragraph talks about the
`documents that you reviewed in preparing this
`declaration. Is that correct?
` A. Yes, it does.
` Q. And in the middle of that paragraph,
`there's a sentence that begins "Those documents
`include." Do you see that?
` A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.
` Q. And that sentence reads:
` "Those documents include preliminary
`decisions by a board of administrative law
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`8
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 8
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 30
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`judges in the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office, and copies of patents to
`Mackey, Pollack (two patents), Yu, Clark, and
`Kassai."
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there anything that you reviewed
`for preparation of this declaration that's not
`listed there?
` A. No.
` Q. And you're certain of that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Towards the end of that
`paragraph, you say that you've undertaken to
`understand the content of the patent claims.
`Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What do you mean by content?
` A. What they say and what they mean.
` Q. And you say that you've "undertaken
`to understand the content of the patent claims
`on the basis of rules and interpretational
`techniques or principles that have been
`explained to me."
` A. Yes.
`
`Page 32
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`see if there are any aspects of it, but no.
` Q. So you do not recognize it as a
`document you read in preparation for the
`declaration.
` A. Correct.
` Q. Let's go back to your LinkedIn
`profile which I believe I've designated as
`Exhibit 1020.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. At the end of -- well, I shouldn't
`say the end. Starting at about, well, the
`second page of the printout, there's a listing
`of patents.
` A. Yes.
` Q. These are patents that name you as
`an inventor. Is that fair to say?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. So you're familiar with patent
`prosecution histories?
` A. Patent prosecution histories? I
`don't understand the term.
` Q. So when you file a patent, the
`correspondence that goes back and forth to the
`patent office.
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` DAVID G. HARTING
` Q. What are those rules?
` A. I wrote them down in Sections E and
`F.
` Q. Were those the only two rules?
` A. Yes.
` (Off the record at 10:14 a.m.)
` (Back on the record at 10:15 a.m.)
` Q. Hand you another exhibit that was
`previously marked, Exhibit 1013, which was
`submitted by J Squared.
` Just for clarity of the record, this
`is 1013 in IPR 2015-00774, and in the other
`IPR -- I'm not sure it has the same number, but
`I'll get it for you -- 1008 in the IPR
`2015-958.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. No. There are aspects of it I
`recognize, but...
` Q. What do you mean by aspects?
` A. Well, I see there are some drawings
`of the Sauder chair that I recognize.
` Q. But you did not review this document
`in preparation for this declaration?
` A. I would have to read it in detail to
`
`Page 33
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` DAVID G. HARTING
` A. I am familiar with some of it, that
`which I've been exposed to.
` Q. So for your patents, you've reviewed
`prosecution histories. Is that fair to say?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Let's go back to your declaration.
` So going back again to Paragraph 6,
`the very end of that paragraph states that
`you've been informed of the following facts.
`Do you see that?
` A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.
` Q. Then in Section B you mentioned:
` "University Loft has put on the
`market a chair called the Trey chair, which in
`my opinion," et cetera.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. So that's not facts. That's
`opinion, right?
` A. Which is opinion? Where I say it's
`in my opinion?
` Q. Right. Well, I guess my point is in
`Paragraph 6 you list facts, but yet Element B
`is opinion, correct?
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide
`(877) 702-9580
`
`9
`
`J Squared Exhibit 1025, pg. 9
`J Squared vs. Sauder
`IPR2015-00774
`
`

`
`Page 34
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` DAVID G. HARTING
` A. Yes, with the exception of where I
`stipulated that it was in my opinion.
` Q. I'm not following. So Paragraph B
`is expressing your opinion, correct?
` A. The fact that it -- the fact that my
`opinion is that it's a virtual copy of the
`chair, of the Trey chair, yes, that is my
`opinion.
` Q. And you are not a patent attorney.
`Is that correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. I think you mentioned earlier that
`Paragraphs E and F were the only rules that
`were explained to you by a patent attorney?
` A. That I can recall, yes.
` Q. Do you recall being explained the
`law of patent infringement?
` A. The law of patent infringement?
` Q. Right.
` A. I'm generally aware of the concept
`of patent infringement, yes.
` Q. Do you provide any analysis of
`infringement in this declaration?
` A. I'm not sure I understand the term.
`
`Page 36
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` DAVID G. HARTING
`person to develop products in this area.
` Q. And what specifically is ordinary
`skill as compared to expert skill, for example?
` A. It's a level of familiarity with
`governing regulations, safety regulations,
`human factors data, and the background of the
`intent of the project.
` Q. Is there an education level
`associated with that ordinary skill?
` A. Not explicitly. My education level
`is a bachelor of science in mechanical
`engineering.
` Q. Is it your opinion that someone of
`ordinary skill would have that same level of
`education?
` A. Or a comparable degree.
` Q. Let's move to Paragraph 9. Towards
`I guess in the middle of that paragraph, you
`say the desk chair is of a certain height,
`size, load bearing capability, durability,
`et cetera.
` A. Uh-huh, yes.
` Q. What do you mean by durability?
` A. There are specifications called
`
`Page 35
`
`