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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · ·________________________
`·2
`· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`·4· ·WHATSAPP, INC. and FACEBOOK, INC.,
`·5· · · · · · · ·Petitioner(s)
`·6· · · · v.
`·7· ·TRIPLAY COMMUNICATIONS, LTD.,
`·8· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`· · ·______________________________
`·9
`· · ·Case No. IPR2015-00740
`10
`· · ·U.S. Patent No. 8,332,475
`11· ·______________________________
`12
`13
`14· · · ·VIDEO DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
`15· · · · · · · · · RAJEEV SURATI, PH.D.
`16· · · · · · · · · DATE:· MARCH 22, 2016
`17· · ·REPORTED BY:· CHARLENE FRIEDMAN, CCR, RPR, CRR
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`· · · · · · · · ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS, LLC
`23· · · · · · · ·1384 Broadway - 19th Floor
`· · · · · · · · · New York, New York· 10018
`24· · · · · · · · · · ·(212) 687-2010
`25· ·JOB· # J0324580
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`·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
`·2
`·3· ·COOLEY, LLP
`· · ·3175 Hanover Street
`·4· ·Palo Alto, California· 94304
`· · ·(650) 843-5007
`·5· ·BY:· ·MARK WEINSTEIN, ESQ.
`· · ·Attorneys for Petitioner
`·6
`·7
`·8
`· · ·GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
`·9· ·500 Campus Drive
`· · ·Suite 400
`10· ·Florham Park, New Jersey· 07932
`· · ·(973) 360-7900
`11· ·BY:· ·DOUG WEIDER, ESQ.
`· · ·Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`14· ·ALSO PRESENT:· ·YUAN LAING
`15· · · · · · · · · ·PHIL MAZO, Video Operator
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`·1· · · · · · · · TRANSCRIPT of the video deposition of the
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·witness, called for Oral Examination in the
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`·2· ·WITNESS NAME· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·3· ·above-captioned matter, by and before CHARLENE FRIEDMAN,
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`·3· ·RAJEEV SURATI
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`·4· ·a Notary Public and Certified Court Reporter of the
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`·4· · · · · · · By Mr. Weinstein
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`·5· ·State of New Jersey, a Registered Professional Reporter,
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`·5· · · · · · · By Mr. Weider
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`·6· ·and a Certified Realtime Reporter, at GREENBERG TRAURIG,
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`·7· ·LLP, 500 Campus Drive, Suite 400, Florham Park, New
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·8· ·Jersey, on March 22, 2016, commencing at approximately
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`·8· ·EXHIBIT NO.· · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·9· ·(None marked.)
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`·2· · · · · · · · Deposition Support Index
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`13· ·Questions marked
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`·1· · · · · · ·VIDEO OPERATOR:· This is Tape
`·2· ·Number 1 to the videotaped deposition of
`·3· ·Rajeev Surati, Ph.D., in the matter of
`·4· ·Whatsapp, Inc. and Facebook, Inc. versus
`·5· ·Triplay Communications, LTD, being heard
`·6· ·before the United States Patent and Trademark
`·7· ·Office, before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`·8· ·Board, Case No. IPR2015-00740, U.S. Patent
`·9· ·No. 8,332,475.
`10· · · · · · ·This deposition is being held at
`11· ·Greenberg Traurig, 500 Campus Drive, Suite
`12· ·400, Florham Park, New Jersey 07932, on
`13· ·March 22nd, 2016 at 10:04 a.m.
`14· · · · · · ·My name is Phil Mazo, and I am the
`15· ·videographer.· The court reporter is Charlene
`16· ·Friedman.
`17· · · · · · ·Counsel, will you please introduce
`18· ·yourselves and affiliations, and the witness
`19· ·will be sworn.
`20· · · · · · ·MR. WEINSTEIN:· My name is Mark
`21· ·Weinstein from the law firm of Cooley, LLP,
`22· ·representing the petitioner.· With me is Yuan
`23· ·Liang also from Cooley, representing the
`24· ·petitioner.
`25· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· Doug Weider from
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`·1· ·Greenberg Traurig on behalf of TriPlay, Inc.,
`·2· ·the patent owner.
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`·7· ·R A J E E V· S U R A T I,· Ph. D.,
`·8· · · · · · ·called as a witness, having been first duly
`·9· ·sworn according to law, testifies as follows:
`10
`11· ·EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINSTEIN:
`12· · · · Q· · Good morning, sir.
`13· · · · A· · Good morning.
`14· · · · Q· · Could you state your name, for the
`15· ·record?
`16· · · · A· · Rajeev Surati.
`17· · · · Q· · And for purposes of addressing you,
`18· ·do you prefer Dr. Surati or Mr. Surati?
`19· · · · A· · Dr. Surati is fine.
`20· · · · Q· · Dr. Surati it will be then, okay.
`21· · · · · · ·Sir, have you ever had your
`22· ·deposition taken before?
`23· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`24· · · · Q· · How many times?
`25· · · · A· · Once before.
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`·1· · · · Q· · When was that?
`·2· · · · A· · It was with regard to this related
`·3· ·matter, to this, at the law firm of --
`·4· ·somewhere in Palo Alto, and I can't remember
`·5· ·the name but it was a guy named Rick.
`·6· · · · Q· · Rick Franco?
`·7· · · · A· · Yeah, Rick Franco.
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.· So we're actually
`·9· ·representing a different -- withdrawn.
`10· · · · · · ·I'm actually from a different law
`11· ·firm --
`12· · · · A· · Yeah.
`13· · · · Q· · -- but it sounds like that's the
`14· ·only other deposition you've been in?
`15· · · · A· · That's correct.
`16· · · · Q· · Okay.· So I will put on the record
`17· ·just a couple of the ground rules of a
`18· ·deposition, even though I think you're
`19· ·already aware of them.
`20· · · · · · ·Obviously, everything you say here
`21· ·is under oath.· So what you say here has the
`22· ·same force and effect as if it was stated in
`23· ·court.
`24· · · · · · ·You understand that, correct?
`25· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
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`·1· · · · Q· · If at any point during the
`·2· ·deposition you don't understand a question
`·3· ·I'm asking, please feel free to ask me for a
`·4· ·clearer question.· I can try to accommodate
`·5· ·that.
`·6· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
`·7· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`·8· · · · Q· · If at any point during the
`·9· ·deposition -- we're not going to be here that
`10· ·long, but if at any point during the
`11· ·deposition you feel you need to take a break,
`12· ·let me know and we can accommodate that,
`13· ·okay?
`14· · · · A· · Thank you.
`15· · · · Q· · The only restriction on that,
`16· ·typically, is that we wouldn't take a break
`17· ·during the pendency of a question.
`18· · · · · · ·That sounds fair to you, right?
`19· · · · A· · What does that mean?
`20· · · · Q· · Well, during the question, we
`21· ·normally wouldn't ask for a break, while a
`22· ·question is still pending.
`23· · · · A· · Oh.
`24· · · · Q· · You would answer the question
`25· ·before we take a break.
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`·1· · · · A· · Okay.· Sure.
`·2· · · · Q· · Okay.· And then is there any reason
`·3· ·you can give today that you can't give your
`·4· ·best testimony today?
`·5· · · · A· · No.
`·6· · · · Q· · Any medication you're aware of that
`·7· ·could affect your testimony?
`·8· · · · A· · No.
`·9· · · · Q· · Okay.· Thank you, sir.
`10· · · · · · ·I'm going to get right into it.
`11· ·I'm going to hand you a document that's been
`12· ·marked as TriPlay Exhibit 2002 --
`13· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`14· · · · Q· · -- in the IPR.
`15· · · · A· · Okay.
`16· · · · Q· · Because these are already of record
`17· ·in the IPR, I don't -- I don't need to mark
`18· ·it as an exhibit to the deposition.
`19· · · · · · ·I just handed you Exhibit 2002.
`20· · · · · · ·Is this a copy of your declaration
`21· ·submitted in this case?
`22· · · · A· · Let me just take a look and --
`23· · · · Q· · Absolutely.
`24· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing.)
`25· · · · A· · Yes, it appears to be.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Thank you.
`·2· · · · · · ·If at any point during the
`·3· ·deposition you need to refer to paragraphs of
`·4· ·your declaration --
`·5· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·6· · · · Q· · -- I handed it to you so you can
`·7· ·rely on it.· It's not a memory test.
`·8· · · · · · ·I'm going to go through certain
`·9· ·paragraphs of your declaration and ask some
`10· ·clarification on certain points.
`11· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`12· · · · Q· · If we could start with paragraph 7
`13· ·of your declaration.
`14· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.· Yes, sir.
`15· · · · Q· · Thank you.
`16· · · · · · ·In the last sentence of paragraph
`17· ·7, it refers to HTML and WML.
`18· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`19· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`20· · · · Q· · Just so I have a clear record,
`21· ·so -- so what does "WML" refer to?
`22· · · · A· · Wireless market language, I
`23· ·believe.
`24· · · · Q· · Okay.· And what is wireless market
`25· ·language used for?
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`·1· · · · A· · So I believe it's a protocol that's
`·2· ·used in the context of wireless access
`·3· ·protocol or it's a format that typically is
`·4· ·used with that to provide rendering on mobile
`·5· ·devices that, at the time, 2000 people were
`·6· ·using to transmit and receive messages over
`·7· ·WAP using WML.
`·8· · · · Q· · Is it also a technique used to
`·9· ·encode websites for use on a mobile device?
`10· · · · A· · At the time, I was using that as a
`11· ·way to encode Photo.net when it detected that
`12· ·a WAP browser was being -- doing the
`13· ·requesting.
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.· So your Photo.net program
`15· ·would detect the type of browser that was
`16· ·attempting to access the site, correct?
`17· · · · A· · Yes.
`18· · · · Q· · Did it use the user-agent string to
`19· ·do that?
`20· · · · A· · I believe so.· I think that's
`21· ·correct.
`22· · · · Q· · Okay.· And one of the user agent
`23· ·strings you would recognize as full -- as
`24· ·belonging to a mobile browser, correct?
`25· · · · A· · I think that's correct, yes.
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`·1· · · · Q· · And if you saw that kind of a
`·2· ·browser, you would render the page in WML,
`·3· ·correct?
`·4· · · · A· · Yeah.
`·5· · · · Q· · Okay.· And Photo.net, was that --
`·6· ·was that a website?
`·7· · · · A· · Yes, it was.
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.
`·9· · · · A· · And still is.
`10· · · · Q· · And still is.
`11· · · · A· · Yes.
`12· · · · Q· · Okay.
`13· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a discussion was held
`14· ·off the record.)
`15· · · · Q· · And let's go to paragraph 12 real
`16· ·quickly.
`17· · · · · · ·I'll also ask you briefly, is 350
`18· ·an hour still your currently hourly rate?
`19· · · · A· · I've started to charge a little bit
`20· ·more.
`21· · · · Q· · Okay.· But for purposes of this
`22· ·proceeding, are you still charging 350 an
`23· ·hour?
`24· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`25· · · · Q· · Okay.· Talking about this matter,
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`·1· ·not the District Court matter that you had a
`·2· ·deposition with Mr. Franco, how many hours do
`·3· ·you estimate that you have billed in
`·4· ·connection with the IPR matter?
`·5· · · · A· · Oh.· Can I have a piece of paper?
`·6· · · · Q· · If you need one, sure.
`·7· · · · A· · Yeah.
`·8· · · · Q· · If it would help you answer
`·9· ·questions, sure.
`10· · · · A· · I just need to...
`11· · · · Q· · No problem.
`12· · · · A· · Somewhere on the order of 350
`13· ·hours, I guess.
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.
`15· · · · · · ·VIDEO OPERATOR:· Dr. Surati, could
`16· ·you just put your mic on your jacket?
`17· · · · · · ·Thank you.
`18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Right here?
`19· · · · · · ·VIDEO OPERATOR:· Yes.
`20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It was too close?
`21· · · · · · ·VIDEO OPERATOR:· It was just
`22· ·brushing against -- against your shirt.
`23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, okay.
`24· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a discussion was held
`25· ·off the record.)
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`·1· · · · Q· · So let -- let's jump right to
`·2· ·paragraph 20, which is the level of ordinary
`·3· ·skill in the art.· Looks like page 7 of your
`·4· ·deposition.
`·5· · · · A· · Is that paragraph 20, did you say?
`·6· · · · Q· · Paragraph 20.
`·7· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·8· · · · Q· · I'm also going to hand you a copy
`·9· ·of Exhibit 1001, which is the --
`10· · · · A· · Original patent.
`11· · · · Q· · Correct, the '475 patent.
`12· · · · · · ·So looking at paragraph 20 of your
`13· ·declaration --
`14· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`15· · · · Q· · -- you identify a person of
`16· ·ordinary skill in the art as a person with a
`17· ·Bachelor's degree, either electrical
`18· ·engineering or computer science, at least two
`19· ·years of experience designing, implementing
`20· ·messaging systems between user devices and at
`21· ·least one year of experience working with
`22· ·format and coding and layout of images or
`23· ·video.
`24· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`25· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Now, looking -- if you can look at
`·2· ·claims 1 and 6 of the '475 patent, do the
`·3· ·messages in claims 1 or 6 require images or
`·4· ·video?
`·5· · · · A· · The specification discusses
`·6· ·messages and messages can mean -- can have
`·7· ·video or -- what was the question again?
`·8· · · · Q· · Do the messages in claims 1 or 6,
`·9· ·must they include images or video?
`10· · · · A· · So like I said, so messages could
`11· ·include them, but I don't, at the moment, see
`12· ·why they necessarily have to.
`13· · · · · · ·However, the specification of the
`14· ·patent discusses a lot of that.· So within
`15· ·the context of the specification, I think
`16· ·that the reason that I made those
`17· ·requirements was the specification that
`18· ·discussed that.
`19· · · · Q· · Okay.· And we can turn to that, if
`20· ·you'd like.
`21· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`22· · · · Q· · If you turn to column 10 of the
`23· ·specification.
`24· · · · A· · Yes, sir.
`25· · · · Q· · I'm going to direct you to line 51.
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`·1· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· Try and make your
`·3· ·answers verbal.
`·4· · · · A· · Yes.
`·5· · · · Q· · Oh, uh-huh and umm-hmm don't come
`·6· ·up on the --
`·7· · · · A· · Okay.· Fifty-one.
`·8· · · · Q· · Yes, line 51 -- all three in the
`·9· ·record, column 10, line 51 --
`10· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`11· · · · Q· · -- "The message content may
`12· ·include" --
`13· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· Your answers have to
`14· ·be verbal, sorry.
`15· · · · A· · Oh, yes.
`16· · · · Q· · Column 10, line 51, "The message
`17· ·content may include a text and/or one or more
`18· ·video" -- I'm sorry, "items to be transmitted
`19· ·to the other party wherein the media items
`20· ·may include text files, image files, moving
`21· ·picture files, sound files, hyperlinks,
`22· ·electronic signatures, et cetera, and any
`23· ·available formats."
`24· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`25· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Is that the statement for the
`·2· ·specification to which you're referring?
`·3· · · · A· · Yes, this is one of them.
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would you agree that the
`·5· ·definition of a message in the patent could
`·6· ·include a -- a text only message?
`·7· · · · A· · I think that's reasonable.
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.· That's not a clear answer.
`·9· · · · · · ·Do you disagree with my statement
`10· ·or not?
`11· · · · A· · Which statement?
`12· · · · Q· · That a message as defined in the
`13· ·patent could include a text only message.
`14· · · · · · ·You said it was reasonable. I
`15· ·wasn't sure if you were saying --
`16· · · · A· · Yeah, I think it's reasonable to
`17· ·say the messages as discussed in the patent
`18· ·may only be a text message.
`19· · · · Q· · Okay.· Would include a message that
`20· ·has only text, correct?
`21· · · · A· · As the body, yes.
`22· · · · Q· · Okay.· Let's go to paragraph 22 of
`23· ·your declaration.
`24· · · · A· · I'm sorry.
`25· · · · Q· · No problem.
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`·1· · · · · · ·The first sentence in paragraph 22
`·2· ·says, "Coulombe proposed framework does not
`·3· ·place any meaningful restrictions on the,
`·4· ·quote, 'characteristics of the incoming
`·5· ·messages,' quote" --
`·6· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·7· · · · Q· · -- "that are to be, quote, 'made
`·8· ·suitable for,' quote, 'the capabilities of
`·9· ·the recipients terminal or the recipients
`10· ·user preference.'"
`11· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a discussion was held
`12· ·off the record.)
`13· · · · Q· · What would be an example of a
`14· ·meaningful restriction on the characteristics
`15· ·of an incoming message?
`16· · · · A· · A meaningful restriction might be
`17· ·that they all be in the XML format.
`18· · · · Q· · Okay.· Does the '475 patent that
`19· ·you've reviewed in connection with this IPR
`20· ·place any meaningful restrictions on the
`21· ·characteristics of the incoming messages?
`22· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· Objection.
`23· · · · · · ·You can answer, if you understand.
`24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Oh, you said
`25· ·objection?
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`·1· · · · Q· · Unless he instructs you otherwise,
`·2· ·which I can't imagine --
`·3· · · · A· · Yeah.
`·4· · · · Q· · -- why he would, you can answer the
`·5· ·question.
`·6· · · · A· · Okay.· So the question again was,
`·7· ·does the '475 patent place any meaningful
`·8· ·restrictions on messages?
`·9· · · · Q· · On the characteristics of incoming
`10· ·messages.
`11· · · · A· · Yeah.· I'd have to think about
`12· ·that.
`13· · · · Q· · Okay.· We can go back to that
`14· ·passage that we just talked about on column
`15· ·11.
`16· · · · A· · Okay.· That would be here.· Okay.
`17· · · · Q· · Which has the definition of a
`18· ·message.· I apologize, column 10.
`19· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`20· · · · Q· · Column 10, line 43.
`21· · · · · · ·And that passage begins, "The term
`22· ·message" --
`23· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`24· · · · Q· · -- "used in the patent
`25· ·specification should be expansively construed
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`·1· ·to include any kind of communications,
`·2· ·objects capable to be exchanged to
`·3· ·communication devices," and it goes on from
`·4· ·there.
`·5· · · · A· · I see.
`·6· · · · Q· · Based on your view of the
`·7· ·'475 patent, did you see any indication that
`·8· ·the patent placed any meaningful restrictions
`·9· ·on the characteristics of incoming messages?
`10· · · · A· · Off the top of my head, I'm
`11· ·thinking that there might be, but I need to
`12· ·look carefully at the document to decide
`13· ·what.
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.· But you haven't given any
`15· ·opinion either way as to whether or not the
`16· ·'475 patent places any meaningful
`17· ·restrictions on the characteristics of an
`18· ·incoming message, correct?
`19· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· Object to the form.
`20· · · · A· · Let me just -- so insomuch as we
`21· ·look at claim 1 and claim 6, you know, claim
`22· ·6 places some sort of meaningful restriction
`23· ·on it in terms of -- well, you know, that
`24· ·there would be some type of unique identifier
`25· ·with -- within the message of some sort.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Okay.· But the unique identifier
`·2· ·doesn't speak to the format of the message,
`·3· ·correct?
`·4· · · · A· · Well, it provides -- if you look at
`·5· ·how it does it, the system of claim 1
`·6· ·configured to receive a message having a
`·7· ·layout based on the template, said template
`·8· ·characterized by at least a unique
`·9· ·identifier, wherein the system is further
`10· ·configured to recognize the unique
`11· ·identifier.
`12· · · · · · ·I think that there's some implicit
`13· ·notion that somehow that unique identifier is
`14· ·somewhere in the content of whatever is sent.
`15· · · · Q· · Does the claims in the '475 impose
`16· ·any restriction on the format that an
`17· ·incoming message has to be in?
`18· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· You're asking him
`19· ·whether any of the claims of the '475?
`20· · · · · · ·MR. WEINSTEIN:· We'll restrict
`21· ·ourselves to claims 1 and 6.
`22· · · · A· · Okay.· I'm sorry.
`23· · · · · · ·MR. WEIDER:· You can answer.
`24· · · · A· · Okay.· I don't -- I don't believe I
`25· ·think there is anything with regard to format
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`·1· ·in terms of form, like, you know -- like I
`·2· ·don't think with regard to the format as
`·3· ·we've defined it or -- yeah, as we've defined
`·4· ·it, that there's a particular limiting one, a
`·5· ·limitation with regard to the format.
`·6· · · · Q· · Okay.· Can you turn to paragraph
`·7· ·34, please?· It's on page 14.
`·8· · · · A· · Paragraph 34 of the declaration?
`·9· · · · Q· · Declaration.
`10· · · · A· · Okay.
`11· · · · Q· · You can just read that to yourself
`12· ·and let me know when you've had a chance to
`13· ·familiarize yourself with it.
`14· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing.)
`15· · · · A· · Yes.
`16· · · · Q· · Okay.· Just so I'm clear, you're
`17· ·not saying the capability information has to
`18· ·be sent with each message?
`19· · · · A· · No, not necessarily.
`20· · · · Q· · So each message within a session
`21· ·wouldn't have to continually resend the
`22· ·capability information, correct?
`23· · · · A· · I don't believe so.
`24· · · · Q· · Okay.· Dr. Surati, how long have
`25· ·you been using -- withdrawn.
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`·1· · · · · · ·You're familiar with HTML
`·2· ·obviously, correct?
`·3· · · · A· · Yes, I believe I am.
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.· When is the first time you
`·5· ·were using HTML as a --
`·6· · · · A· · I would probably say somewhere
`·7· ·between '93 and '95, probably.· I don't
`·8· ·remember exactly.
`·9· · · · Q· · So from the earliest days of what
`10· ·became the worldwide web, correct?
`11· · · · A· · I -- yes.
`12· · · · Q· · Okay.· So HTML, does it have any
`13· ·uses other than web page browsing?
`14· · · · A· · Yes.· It's a format that you can
`15· ·encode a document in that may or may not be a
`16· ·web page.
`17· · · · Q· · Okay.· Prior to 2005, can you give
`18· ·me examples of the use of HTML in any context
`19· ·outside of web browsing?
`20· · · · A· · Formatting an e-mail message in
`21· ·HTML.
`22· · · · Q· · Okay.· Any other examples you can
`23· ·think of?
`24· · · · A· · Is there any particular reason it
`25· ·has to be prior to 2005?
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`·1· · · · Q· · That's the priority date of the
`·2· ·patents, I believe.
`·3· · · · A· · Oh, okay.· I imagine I could come
`·4· ·up with one, but I don't have one off the top
`·5· ·of my head.
`·6· · · · Q· · Okay.· But there was nothing about
`·7· ·the design of the HTML markup language that
`·8· ·was restricted to web browsing, correct?
`·9· · · · A· · It's fair to say that HTML is not
`10· ·restricted to being used only in the context
`11· ·of web pages.
`12· · · · Q· · Okay.
`13· · · · A· · I think that's part of its design.
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.· Prior to 2005, had you ever
`15· ·used XHTML?
`16· · · · A· · I believe so.
`17· · · · Q· · What's your understanding of what
`18· ·XHTML is?
`19· · · · A· · Its intent is, HTML that's
`20· ·formatted in an XML package that a parser
`21· ·could read and decide is -- I'm sorry, an XML
`22· ·parser could read and interpret it as mostly
`23· ·HTML.
`24· · · · Q· · Okay.
`25· · · · A· · Though there's some restrictions
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`·1· ·and particular differences between HTML and
`·2· ·XHTML.
`·3· · · · Q· · Okay.· If you can turn to paragraph
`·4· ·52 of your declaration.
`·5· · · · A· · I'm sorry?
`·6· · · · Q· · Paragraph 52.
`·7· · · · A· · Yeah.· Okay, 52.· This one
`·8· ·starting, "Separation of presentation using
`·9· ·CSS"?
`10· · · · Q· · Yes, sir.
`11· · · · · · ·If you can read the paragraph to
`12· ·yourself and just let me know when you've had
`13· ·a chance to familiarize yourself with it.
`14· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing.)
`15· · · · A· · Oh, yes, I did want to point out
`16· ·one slight error, typographical error.
`17· · · · Q· · In -- go ahead.
`18· · · · A· · So on the last sentence, it says,
`19· ·"Type equals text/ESS."· I believe that
`20· ·should be "text/CSS."
`21· · · · Q· · I see.
`22· · · · · · ·That was going to be one of my
`23· ·questions, actually.
`24· · · · A· · Oh, okay.
`25· · · · Q· · No problem.
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`·1· · · · · · ·If you see any more, anything like
`·2· ·that during the deposition, feel free to --
`·3· · · · A· · Okay.· Yeah, I did see that.· I --
`·4· ·sorry, I did not catch that.
`·5· · · · Q· · Don't worry about it.
`·6· · · · · · ·My first question was, XHTML
`·7· ·supports -- withdrawn.
`·8· · · · · · ·XHTML supported CSS, correct?
`·9· · · · A· · It's one of the supported formats,
`10· ·yes.
`11· · · · · · ·You said XHTML supports CSS?
`12· · · · Q· · Correct.
`13· · · · A· · That's correct.
`14· · · · Q· · Okay.· And you could link to a CSS
`15· ·style sheet from an XHTML file using a URL,
`16· ·correct?
`17· · · · A· · That's fair.
`18· · · · Q· · And I think what you're saying is
`19· ·also that it has to be an external CSS file,
`20· ·correct?
`21· · · · A· · I believe that's one of the
`22· ·restrictions, but I have to look it up.
`23· · · · Q· · Okay.· The URL that would identify
`24· ·the CSS style sheet file -- and that's a
`25· ·unique identifier, correct?
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`·1· · · · A· · It's a unique identifier in the
`·2· ·context of unique identifiers.
`·3· · · · Q· · I mean, the purpose of a URL is to
`·4· ·uniquely identify --
`·5· · · · A· · Yeah.
`·6· · · · Q· · -- a resource on the web, correct?
`·7· · · · A· · Right.
`·8· · · · Q· · Okay.· So when's the first time you
`·9· ·can recall having used CSS?
`10· · · · A· · Okay.· I'm guessing somewhere
`11· ·around 1999.
`12· · · · Q· · Okay.· So it was pretty early after
`13· ·its adoption, as far as you can recall?
`14· · · · A· · Yeah.
`15· · · · Q· · Okay.· So one of the things you can
`16· ·do with CSS is specify the -- withdrawn.
`17· · · · · · ·One of the things you can do with
`18· ·CSS is specify the layout of an HTML
`19· ·document, correct?
`20· · · · A· · So insofar as you're changing the
`21· ·properties of the elements of a HTML file,
`22· ·you can use the CSS file to specify what
`23· ·those changes are.
`24· · · · Q· · And one of those changes can affect
`25· ·how the elements are laid out on the screen,
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`·1· ·correct?
`·2· · · · A· · Yes, how they appear laid out on
`·3· ·the screen.
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.· And their colors?
`·5· · · · A· · Colors.
`·6· · · · Q· · Fonts?
`·7· · · · A· · Fonts.
`·8· · · · Q· · Sizes?
`·9· · · · A· · Sizes.
`10· · · · Q· · Anything else you can think of that
`11· ·can be specified with CSS?
`12· · · · A· · Colors, background color,
`13· ·foreground color.· There's a whole list of
`14· ·properties you can look up, but they're very
`15· ·cosmetic in appearance and nature.· They're
`16· ·not structural as to the form of an XML or
`17· ·HTML.
`18· · · · Q· · Okay.· Can CSS also be used to hide
`19· ·an element from display?
`20· · · · A· · It can be, but it doesn't change
`21· ·the structure of the underlying document.
`22· · · · Q· · And by that, you mean it doesn't
`23· ·change the underlying HTML?
`24· · · · A· · That's correct.
`25· · · · Q· · Okay.· But using CSS, I can specify
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`·1· ·that a certain HTML element will not be shown
`·2· ·when it's rendered, correct?
`·3· · · · A· · That's correct.
`·4· · · · Q· · Okay.
`·5· · · · A· · But as far as things like whether
`·6· ·things have that -- might be encoded, for
`·7· ·example, did I -- example -- here's an
`·8· ·example of something.· You might --
`·9· ·conceivably you'll do that.· There's notions
`10· ·of being able to encode the image directly
`11· ·into the HTML document and that would be
`12· ·transmitted with the message and, yes, it
`13· ·wouldn't show up, but as far as things like
`14· ·bandwidth, consumption, whether the system
`15· ·has to process all that information, et
`16· ·cetera, all those things are the same.· It
`17· ·just isn't going to have to render the image
`18· ·because it's hidden.
`19· · · · Q· · Okay.· So like if you -- so the
`20· ·element may be there in the HTML file --
`21· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`22· · · · Q· · -- the CSS, he may tell you not to
`23· ·display it or show it visually --
`24· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`25· · · · Q· · -- but it's still going to be in
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`·1· ·the file, correct?
`·2· · · · A· · That's correct.
`·3· · · · Q· · Okay.· Let's talk a little about
`·4· ·Jabbar.· I hate to go back a little bit but
`·5· ·--
`·6· · · · A· · No, that's fine.
`·7· · · · Q· · -- but go back to paragraph 45.
`·8· · · · A· · Okay.· Paragraph 45?
`·9· · · · Q· · Paragraph 45.
`10· · · · A· · Yes.
`11· · · · Q· · So just -- just we might be jumping
`12· ·forward and backward depending on how you
`13· ·answer the question, but for the most part
`14· ·we're going to stick to the declaration.
`15· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`16· · · · Q· · So if you can read paragraph 45 to
`17· ·yourself, and let me know when you had a
`18· ·chance to do that.
`19· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing.)
`20· · · · A· · It talks about conclusions, and I'm
`21· ·going to look backwards again.
`22· · · · Q· · No problem.
`23· · · · · · ·(Witness reviewing.)
`24· · · · A· · Okay.
`25· · · · Q· · Thank you, sir.
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`·1· · · · · · ·So first, I just want to understand
`·2· ·what you mean by the second sentence, there's
`·3· ·a clause saying "A POSITA would understand
`·4· ·that the incoming SIP message body could be
`·5· ·written in any recognized format, including
`·6· ·XHTML" --
`·7· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·8· · · · Q· · -- and it goes on from there.
`·9· · · · A· · Yes.
`10· · · · Q· · What do you mean by "recognized
`11· ·format"?
`12· · · · A· · So if you look at a sent message
`13· ·body, and we talked about things like
`14· ·meaningful restrictions and things like that
`15· ·before, if you have to have a format -- and
`16· ·the way that that's done, and I may be a
`17· ·little incorrect because I don't have the
`18· ·document in front of me, but I believe
`19· ·there's this notion of CPIM format or
`20· ·something like that that gives some sense
`21· ·of -- well, you have to have -- it needs to
`22· ·be one of this type of format to be an
`23· ·acceptable message body.· And to that extent,
`24· ·a recognizable format would be one that fits
`25· ·under the guise of what SIP would allow.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Okay.
`·2· · · · A· · But if -- but having said that, I
`·3· ·want to be clear that I view that as not an
`·4· ·extremely meaningful thing because it's so
`·5· ·unrestrictive.
`·6· · · · Q· · That was my question.
`·7· · · · · · ·So a SIP message body could be
`·8· ·XHTML obviously, correct?
`·9· · · · A· · One of many, yes.
`10· · · · Q· · Yeah.
`11· · · · · · ·It could be regular HTML, correct?
`12· · · · A· · It could be.
`13· · · · Q· · Or WML?
`14· · · · A· · It could be.
`15· · · · Q· · Okay.
`16· · · · A· · It could be an e-mail message.· It
`17· ·could be -- it could not even be in a markup
`18· ·language.· It could be plain text.· It could
`19· ·be binary.
`20· · · · Q· · I see.
`21· · · · · · ·So recognized format is essentially
`22· ·any format the system is capable of
`23· ·recognizing, correct?
`24· · · · A· · Within the restriction that I
`25· ·discussed before.
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`·1· · · · Q· · Okay.· In paragraph 47 --
`·2· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·3· · · · Q· · -- you talk about two popular
`·4· ·protocols for --
`·5· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·6· · · · Q· · -- instant messaging, SIP/SIMPLE,
`·7· ·S-I-P slash SIMPLE --
`·8· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·9· · · · Q· · -- and XMPB-Jabbar --
`10· · · · A· · PP.
`11· · · · Q· · -- XMPP --
`12· · · · A· · Yes.
`13· · · · Q· · -- slash Jabbar.
`14· · · · A· · Yes.
`15· · · · Q· · Now, when you reviewed Coulombe --
`16· ·and actually, I'm going to give you a copy of
`17· ·Coulombe.· I don't want to play a memory test
`18· ·with you.· Just in case you need it.· I'm not
`19· ·telling you to review it or not, just if you
`20· ·need it, here's Exhibit 1003, which is a copy
`21· ·of the Coulombe patent or the Coulombe
`22· ·application.
`23· · · · A· · Okay.
`24· · · · Q· · So in paragraph 46, you mention the
`25· ·two popular protocols for instant messaging.
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`·1· · · · A· · Umm-hmm.
`·2· · · · Q· · When you read Coulombe, did you see
`·3· ·any reference to XMPP/Jabbar?
`·4· · · · A· · So let me just see.· There was --
`·5· ·just a moment.· There was some paragraphs
`·6· ·that -- so if you look at paragraph 120 on
`·7· ·page 7 --
`·8· · · · Q· · Yes, sir.
`·9· · · · A· · -- it says, "It should be realized
`10· ·that although the embodiment described above
`11· ·utilizes specific SIP methods, the invention
`12· ·applies to a wide variety of SIP
`13· ·registration/subscription message methods
`14· ·related to many services, including but not
`15· ·limited to, register and subscribe.· For that
`16· ·purpose, a different server or SIP server can
`17· ·replace the SIP/proxy registrar used in the
`18· ·description of this invention."
`19· · · · · · ·"Furthermore, the scope of this
`20· ·invention, although very useful in the
`21· ·context of SIP, can be applied to other
`22· ·messaging services and technologies where
`23· ·clients register or subscribe to a server and
`24· ·provide information about their capabilities
`25· ·or user preferences that are stored for
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`·1· ·future usage by the server to adapt the
`·2· ·messages intended to them."
`·3· · · · · · ·"Likewise, the invention applies to
`·4· ·a wide variety of SIP message methods related
`·5· ·to many services, including but not limited
`·6· ·to, message and notify."
`·7· · · · · · ·Within that context, I believe that
`·8· ·the concept of XMPP would be referred to or
`·9· ·indicated by.
`10· · · · Q· · Which statement -- so you read the
`11· ·entire --
`12