throbber
HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`31
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`Q. And what about the Hefele
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`reference, was that provided by the lawyers?
`
`A.
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`Q.
`
`Yes.
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`The Bayer reference, was that
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`provided by the lawyers?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes.
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`And the Eaton reference was
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`provided by the lawyers also?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Correct.
`
`Which references in your
`
`declaration did you find, if any?
`
`A.
`
`I believe all of them, other than
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`the patents.
`Q.
`column 1 it refers to, at about line ii, it
`
`Coming back to the ’757 patents, in
`
`refers to -- I’m sorry. I’ll wait until you
`
`get there. Sorry about that. Column i, about
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`line ii, do you see where it refers to U.S.
`
`patent number 666,498?
`
`io
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`Yes.
`
`Did you review that patent?
`
`A.
`
`Can you tell me the author of the
`
`patent?
`Q.
`A.
`
`Its Collins patent.
`
`I don’t recall reviewing that one.
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 31
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`32
`
`Q. And on the next line there is one,
`
`U.S. patent number 201,946, which is another
`
`Collins patent. Did you review that patent?
`
`A.
`
`I don’t recall reviewing that
`
`patent.
`
`Q.
`
`Did you review any prosecution
`
`histories as part of your reviewing? Do you
`
`know what I mean by prosecution history?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Did you review any prosecution
`
`histories as part of your review of the patent?
`
`io
`
`Yes.
`
`What prosecution histories did you
`
`review?
`
`A.
`
`Well, it’s in my report.
`
`(Indicating.)
`
`Q. Okay.
`
`You are now looking at your
`
`report, which is exhibit 1014; right?
`
`io
`
`Right. On page five, item A.
`
`I’m sorry, what page of the
`
`document?
`
`Page five.
`
`A.
`Q.
`prosecution history; correct?
`
`So you reviewed the ’757 patent
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 32
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`33
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`Q. Did you review any other
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`prosecution histories?
`
`io
`
`Everything that I reviewed is in
`
`the report.
`Q.
`you reviewed is listed under paragraph ii of
`
`And just so we’re clear, everything
`
`your report; is that correct? I’m on page
`
`three. Did you list everything you reviewed
`
`there in I guess paragraphs i0 and ii?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`(Reading.) Yes.
`
`Which documents in paragraphs i0
`
`and ii did the lawyers furnish to you?
`
`A. All of the documents up to and not
`
`including item I.
`
`Let me add to that. I was also
`
`provided items K and L.
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`Q.
`
`So that means that the documents
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`that you contributed were letter I, letter J,
`
`and letter M; is that correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`The item that you listed at letter
`
`J, the GATF "Encyclopedia of Graphic
`
`Communication," what generally is that?
`
`A.
`
`Is it considered the most extensive
`
`encyclopedia on printing technology.
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 33
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`34
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`Q.
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`A.
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`What is GATF?
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`GATF refers to the Graphic Arts
`
`Technical Foundation which, to elaborate a
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`little further, is now part of the Printing
`
`Industries of America.
`
`Q. And when you say it’s the most
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`extensive encyclopedia, what do you mean by
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`that?
`
`A.
`
`It has more terms and more
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`definitions than any other publication in the
`
`industry.
`
`Q.
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`Is it considered authoritative
`
`within the industry?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`I would say so, yes.
`
`What about other GATF publications,
`
`are those also considered to be authoritative
`
`within the industry?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`And what was the purpose of
`
`reviewing the GATF encyclopedia as part of your
`
`declaration?
`
`A. To help provide the attorneys
`
`involved in this case with resources that
`
`better educate them, I guess, on the Gravure
`
`printing process.
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 34
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`35
`
`Q. Would that encyclopedia also relate
`
`to lamination processes?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`I would expect that it does.
`
`But you are not sure?
`
`I would have to go back and just
`
`review the table of contents and the index.
`
`Q. And what about spraying as Lassiter
`
`uses spraying, is that considered a print
`
`process?
`
`relevance.
`
`A.
`Q.
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, form,
`
`Yes.
`
`What authority would you cite for
`
`that proposition?
`
`A.
`
`I would cite authorities that
`
`reference non impact printing. One example
`
`would be ink jet printing.
`
`Q. Any other examples of non impact
`
`printing?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Electrostatic printing.
`
`Anything else you can think of as
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`far as non impact printing?
`
`A. Well, for the moment I’ll leave it
`
`at that. Those are the two major processes
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`that are used that employ non impact printing.
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 35
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`36
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`Q. What type of substrates are used in
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`non impact printing traditionally?
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`A. Well, first I’ll say virtually any
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`kind of substrate; but traditionally, it would
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`be paper, canvas. It could be certain fabrics,
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`a board. Substrates that meets the
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`processes are particularly suited for
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`substrates that have irregular surfaces. You
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`know, lots of peaks and valleys.
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`Q. What sort of thickness would you be
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`talking about for the non impact printing
`
`traditionally?
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`MR. PEJIC: Objection, form,
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`irrelevant.
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`A. Any thickness that would pass
`
`through the printing system.
`
`Q. What thicknesses are most printing
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`systems designed for?
`
`MR. PEJIC:
`
`Objection. Form and
`
`relevance.
`
`A.
`
`Non impact printing systems are
`
`designed for a wide range of surfaces and
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`thicknesses.
`
`Q. Now, just coming back to your
`
`declaration, the next paragraph there, it
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 36
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`37
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`states, "It is my understanding that the level
`
`of ordinary skill in the art also is reflected
`
`in the disclosure of the prior art references
`
`above."
`
`What do you mean by that?
`
`A. What I mean is that persons of
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`ordinary skill in the printing field would
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`understand the methods and techniques for
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`printing on a variety of substrates, regardless
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`of the process. And I mentioned previously
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`there are basically five traditional processes
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`and two that are becoming traditional.
`
`Q. And the two that were becoming
`
`traditional, what were those again?
`
`Ink jet and electrostatic.
`
`And those are the non impact
`
`printing?
`
`Correct.
`
`A.
`Q.
`level of ordinary skill in the art, what level
`
`And when you are referring to the
`
`are you referring to?
`
`A. Well, based on my experience, it
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`would be, I would say, a person who has a
`
`minimum of a Bachelors Degree. It could be in
`
`printing, it could be in industrial technology,
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 37
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`38
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`it could be more generally graphic arts or
`
`graphic communications. And then maybe three
`
`to five years of experience working in the
`
`field.
`
`Q. And that would be your definition
`
`of what a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`is in the context of the ’757 patent?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`In the context of printing.
`
`Is your definition of a person of
`
`ordinary skill in the art in the ’757 patent
`
`different than what it would be in the printing
`
`art?
`
`A. As related to the reference to
`
`printing in the patent, I would say it would be
`
`the same.
`Q.
`building covering materials or nail tabs, that
`
`But for in relation to roofing or
`
`might be different?
`
`MR. PEJIC:
`
`Objection, form.
`
`A.
`
`In the manufacture of the roofing
`
`material itself, yes, but not in the printing
`
`on the material used for roofing materials.
`
`Q. But aren’t the claims of the ’757
`
`patent directed to the method of making the
`
`roofing or building cover material?
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 38
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`39
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`A.
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`Inherent in the claims is what
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`appears in the description of the patent, the
`
`background, the invention, the detailed
`
`description, which all relates to printing.
`
`That’s made very clear in the patent.
`
`Q. And so Claim 1 isn’t directed to a
`
`method of making a roofing or building cover
`
`material?
`
`A.
`
`(Reading.) It begins by citing a
`
`method of making a roofing or building cover
`
`material. However, it then goes on to read in
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`Claim i, comprising the steps of depositing tab
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`material on to the surface of said roofing or
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`building cover material at a plurality of nail
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`tabs from a lamination role, et cetera, et
`
`cetera. That refers to printing.
`
`Q. The first step there that talks
`
`about treating an extended length of substrate,
`
`is that basically putting the asphalt on the
`
`substrate?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection to form.
`
`io
`
`I couldn’t comment on that.
`
`Q. Let’s look at column 7.
`
`Line about
`
`50.
`
`Column 7, line 50.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 39
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`4O
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`Q. Do you see there where it says,
`
`"Dry felt or fiberglass mat material undergoes
`
`treatment in conventional fashion to
`
`impregnate, saturate or otherwise surround or
`
`coat the organic or fiberglass and polyester
`
`mat fibers with asphalt to produce an asphalt
`
`saturated felt, mat or substrate material"?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I see that.
`
`Is that what’s being referred to in
`
`the first step of Claim i, treating an extended
`
`length of substrate?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevancy.
`
`A.
`
`It could mean that in relation to
`
`developing the substrate on which the printed
`
`tabs were placed.
`
`Q.
`
`Could it mean anything else?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevancy.
`
`A.
`
`I don’t know. Perhaps someone in
`
`the business of manufacturing roofing materials
`
`can answer that question.
`
`Qo
`
`You are just not qualified to
`
`answer it?
`
`A.
`
`I’m qualified to answer any
`
`questions related to the printing material.
`
`MR. PORTER: Okay. We’re going to
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 40
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`take a break.
`
`(Recess had.)
`
`BY MR. PORTER:
`
`October 28, 2015
`41
`
`Q. Dr. Levenson, is there anything you
`
`wanted to change or correct about your
`
`testimony so far?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No.
`
`Okay. On attachment A of your
`
`declaration you have some specifics of your
`
`education there. What types of classes are
`
`involved with a BS in printing?
`
`A. All classes ranging from copy
`
`preparation, the beginnings of creating an
`
`image, through preparing that image for
`
`printing, through printing that image, for
`
`doing any finishing required to that image, to
`
`doing the complete printed product,
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`distributing it. This also includes
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`understanding software, a lot of software
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`courses, color management courses, all of the
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`printing processes, all of the finishing
`
`processes. And then it also includes
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`management
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`costing, pricing, estimating,
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`marketing, sales, quality control, green
`
`management, lean management. Everything
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 41
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`42
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`involved in the management and technical facets
`
`of developing and running a printing
`
`establishment.
`
`Today this includes not only print,
`
`but non print digital imaging. Website
`
`development. You know, Internet applications.
`
`We now are, we have courses in 3D printing, in
`
`printed electronics and functional imaging.
`
`So I mean, broadly speaking, those
`
`are the range at CalPoly and a lot of other
`
`universities, these programs are heavily
`
`laboratory oriented.
`
`Q. When you said finishing of images,
`
`what did you mean by that?
`
`A. Anything that’s done to the printed
`
`image subsequent to printing. In the
`
`traditional sense of, I’ll say, printing books
`
`or magazines or brochures, collating, cutting,
`
`stitching, trimming, those sort of things.
`
`Laminating. Anything that’s done subsequent to
`
`the actual printing is considered finishing.
`
`Q. And when you say laminating is a
`
`finishing process, what do you mean by that?
`
`A. Well, in the traditional sense,
`
`laminating is for example there are many
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 42
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`43
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`examples. One would be for applying, let’s
`
`say, a protective plastic polymer material over
`
`a printed surface. Okay. That would be a
`
`traditional lamination step. Distinguished
`
`from how lamination is referred to in some of
`
`the references that we discussed previously.
`
`Bonding two substrates together
`
`could be, in the traditional sense now,
`
`laminating one substrate on top of another.
`
`Those are just some examples.
`
`Q. What about coating, would that be
`
`considered a finished process?
`
`A. Well, that’s an interesting
`
`question. It could be. However, the
`
`technology today often includes coating as part
`
`of the printing process. For example, at
`
`CalPoly, in our labs, as well as many, many
`
`printing labs, we have, for example, a
`
`four-color Heidelberg press with a coating unit
`
`that’s part of the press, so, you know, it
`
`prints and coats in one operation.
`
`So a coating in this case would not
`
`be a separate operation. In other cases, it
`
`could be a separate operation, where you have a
`
`coating station where you take your printed
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 43
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`44
`
`material and feed it through that subsequent to
`
`printing.
`
`Q. How long has this you said the
`
`coating was part of the printing process today.
`
`How long has that been the case?
`
`A. Quite a few years. A couple of
`
`decades at least.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`More than 20 years?
`
`It could be.
`
`When you say the education -- I
`
`think you said this, and correct me if I am
`
`wrong, you said education is heavily lab
`
`oriented. Is that what you said?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`What did you mean by that?
`
`Okay. To use my facility, CalPoly,
`
`we have over 33,000 square feet of
`
`laboratories, covering almost every aspect of a
`
`process. We have a very sophisticated computer
`
`labs for copy preparation, heavily supported by
`
`Apple computers. We have laboratories for
`
`preparing files for printing. We have design
`
`technology laboratories. We have electronic
`
`platemaking computer plate laboratories. We
`
`have a laboratory for Gravure printing. We
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 44
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`45
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`actually have, we’re one of the few
`
`universities that actually has a Gravure
`
`engraver. We have for many years, starting
`
`with the HelioKlischograph, and then we
`
`replaced it with a Detwiler. Not many
`
`universities only two, actually have
`
`those.
`
`Q. What was that called? I’m sorry.
`
`A Detwiler?
`
`A.
`Q.
`A.
`
`A Detwiler.
`
`Can you spell that?
`
`D-E-T-W-I-L-E-R. It’s the name of
`
`a company that manufactures Gravure engraving
`
`technology to engrave the cylinders.
`
`We have sheet fed and web fed
`
`printing press laboratories. Very large
`
`commercial equipment, a big web we have a
`
`web press that occupies the whole building.
`
`We
`
`have a finishing laboratory. We even have a
`
`substrate ink and toner laboratory, where we
`
`are teaching students how substrates are made,
`
`how toner is made, ink, and how to determine
`
`the compatibility between toner, inks, other
`
`liquid materials and substrates.
`
`And these labs are used also, not
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 45
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`46
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`only for our undergraduate and graduate
`
`education programs, but also for industry
`
`training. We do a lot of seminars and
`
`workshops where we actually train people from
`
`the industry in these areas.
`
`Q. Do you have access to those
`
`laboratories for any work that you want to do?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`In connection with this case, have
`
`you done any work in the laboratories?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`No.
`
`Any reason for that?
`
`It wasn’t requested of me.
`
`In your laboratories, do you have
`
`the capability of printing on a saturated
`
`asphalt felt, for example?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection.
`
`Relevancy
`
`and form.
`
`If we wanted to, I imagine we can.
`
`How would you go about that?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevancy.
`
`Well, by selecting one of the
`
`printing processes. We have an electric bath
`
`with ink jet printers. We have a flexographic
`
`press that could possibly do that. We have
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 46
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`47
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`just not
`
`we haven’t been asked to do that.
`
`I might mention that these labs are
`
`used by the industry as well, these labs that
`
`we have.
`
`Q. Does Owens Coming use your
`
`laboratory?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Not that I know of.
`
`And in connection with the, I think
`
`you mentioned you had a sheet fed and a web fed
`
`machine in your laboratory; is that correct is
`
`that right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Several.
`
`Could you run a hot asphalt
`
`material through those machines?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevance.
`
`A. Those machines are lithographic
`
`machines, not designed to print on, you know,
`
`an asphalt material.
`
`We have a flexographic press. I
`
`would have to consult with the professor who
`
`runs that lab whether the technology we have in
`
`there would be suitable for printing on what
`
`you have described.
`
`Q. Who is the professor that runs that
`
`lab?
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 47
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`48
`
`A. His name is actually, there are
`
`two.
`
`Dr. Malcolm Keif, and Professor Colleen
`
`Toomey.
`
`Q. And when you say it’s a
`
`lithographic, what do you mean by lithographic?
`
`A. The two names I gave you are those
`
`who, for the most part, run the flexographic
`
`laboratory.
`
`Q.
`
`I guess I was going back to
`
`earlier, you had mentioned that the presses
`
`that you have are lithographic. What do you
`
`mean by lithographic?
`
`A. Lithography is a planographics
`
`process where the image on the plate the
`
`image and non image area are on the same plane,
`
`and they’re separated chemically, okay. And
`
`typically, in a lithographic press, there is an
`
`impression cylinder -- there is a plate
`
`cylinder, there is a blanket cylinder and an
`
`impression cylinder through which the substrate
`
`passes between the blanket cylinder -- the
`
`substrate is printed from the blanket cylinder.
`
`Q.
`
`So what would happen if you put a
`
`hot asphalt saturated felt through one of those
`
`planographics machines?
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`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 48
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`49
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`MR. PEJIC:
`
`Objection to form and
`
`relevance.
`
`A.
`
`Those presses are not designed
`
`lithographic presses are not designed to print
`
`on that type of material.
`
`Qo
`
`What about their design makes them
`
`unsuitable?
`
`A.
`
`The planographic nature of the
`
`plate that’s being used, where the image and
`
`non image area is on the same plane, separated
`
`chemically, and the oleophyllic and
`
`hydrophyllic process that’s used to keep the
`
`non image area desensitized and the image area
`
`sensitized, so the non image area does not pick
`
`up ink from the plate and the image area does.
`
`That desensitization, it’s mostly water, but
`
`there is some chemicals in there, and that just
`
`wouldn’t work on the kind of material that you
`
`are referring to.
`
`Q. What sort of temperatures do you
`
`generally use in the lithographic machines or
`
`the flexography machines that you refer to?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, form,
`
`relevance and foundation.
`
`Q. Did you understand my question?
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 49
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNING vs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`5O
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`A.
`
`I understand your question.
`
`However, there are different facets of these
`
`presses.
`
`Are you referring to a different
`
`faceted press?
`
`Q. What facets would a lithographic
`
`press have, for example?
`
`A. A drying mechanism, for example.
`
`There are a number of ways of drying the
`
`printed image. The ultraviolet, electron beam
`
`are two. So there would be -- there is heat
`
`involved in that aspect of the press which is
`
`much higher than heat basically is not a big
`
`issue in the actual printing portion of these
`
`presses, with the exception of high speed web
`
`presses that have cooling agents that have to
`
`cool the substrate subsequent to drying it.
`
`Q. And when you say did you say
`
`heat is not a big problem?
`
`A. Typically not in the printing
`
`portion of these machines.
`
`Q. What temperatures generally are
`
`used in the print portion of the machines?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection to relevancy.
`
`A.
`
`It’s really irrelevant. There is
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 50
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`51
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`no particular number I could give you. What is
`
`relevant is the atmospheric conditions in the
`
`room where this technology is being used, and
`
`temperature and relative humidity is relevant.
`
`And we’re talking about in terms of
`
`temperature, just kind of normal room temps.
`
`70, 75, you know, 68 to 78 degrees. A normal
`
`range.
`
`A particular high-level
`
`temperature, as related to the actual printing
`
`section of these presses, is not that relevant.
`
`Q. And you mentioned humidity. Is
`
`humidity an issue in the lithography or the
`
`flexography printing mechanisms?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection to form and
`
`relevance.
`
`A.
`
`Yes, particularly in the
`
`lithography.
`Q.
`lithography?
`
`Why is humidity an issue in
`
`MR. PEJIC:
`
`Objection, relevance.
`
`A.
`
`Because the stability of the
`
`substrate being printed, particularly paper, is
`
`very important. And paper takes on moisture.
`
`And when it takes on moisture, it tends to want
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 51
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`52
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`to grow, okay. It’s called hysteresis, that’s
`
`the process, and it tends to want to grow.
`
`When it gives off moisture, it
`
`tends to want to shrink, okay, and curl.
`
`Approximately five percent of
`
`printed paper is moisture, and paper has a
`
`relative humidity. You can actually measure
`
`the relative humidity of a substrate with a
`
`hydrometer. You can actually insert it in the
`
`substrate and it will tell you what the
`
`relative humidity is.
`
`So if the relative humidity of the
`
`substrate is lower than the surrounding
`
`humidity of the surrounding area, it takes on
`
`moisture. If the relative humidity is higher
`
`than the surrounding area, it gives off
`
`moisture, and it creates instability of the
`
`paper; and stability is very important for the
`
`positioning of images as the paper passes
`
`through any number of printing stations on a
`
`printing press.
`
`Q.
`
`Why is that stability so important?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection. Relevancy.
`
`A. There are two areas that come to
`
`mind. One is called registration, and that is
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 52
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`53
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`the appropriate positioning of the image on a
`
`substrate. The other has to do with the
`
`finishing process. You want to make sure that
`
`all substrate coming off of the press has the
`
`same dimensions for cutting and other finishing
`
`operations required.
`
`Q. Do other substrates besides paper
`
`have those same issues with humidity?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevance.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`Just coming back to the patent, and
`
`specifically, Claim 6 of the patent. The ’757
`
`patent that’s i001.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`(Reading.)
`
`What’s meant that the material is
`
`pre-formed before contact with said lamination
`
`roll, Claim 6?
`
`A.
`
`In my understanding, the
`
`pre-forming refers to the look and dimension of
`
`the image in the imaging cylinder.
`
`Q. And is there an imaging cylinder
`
`that’s required by Claim 1 to which Claim 6
`
`refers?
`
`A. Looking at figure 4A in the patent,
`
`and reference 4-12, there is an imaging
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 53
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEY LEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FAST FELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`54
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`cylinder that includes the shape of the tab
`
`material. It’s pre-formed in the cylinder.
`
`So if I go back to my description
`
`of the Gravure process, pre-forming would refer
`
`to the creation of the image via the wells and
`
`cells that make up the image area of the
`
`Gravure cylinder. Of the Gravure print
`
`cylinder.
`
`Q.
`
`So under your interpretation of
`
`pre-formed, what images wouldn’t be pre-formed
`
`in practicing Claim i?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection. Relevancy
`
`and form.
`
`A. The tab material would be
`
`pre-formed.
`
`Q.
`
`Claim 1 required the tab material
`
`to be pre-formed?
`
`A. Well, the word pre-formed is not
`
`used in Claim i. It is, though, in claim 6.
`
`Q.
`
`So you understand Claim 6 is adding
`
`an additional limitation to Claim 1 by virtue
`
`of it being a dependent claim?
`
`A. By virtue of tab material being
`
`included in Claim 1 is an indication that the
`
`tab material is pre-formed. What would it be
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 54
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`if it’s not pre-formed.
`
`October 28, 2015
`55
`
`Q.
`
`So can you think of a way to
`
`practice Claim 1 without using pre-formed
`
`tab
`
`material?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevancy.
`
`Qo
`
`And I’m going by your
`
`interpretation of what you mean by pre-formed.
`
`A.
`
`(Reading.) Using the Gravure
`
`process described in the patent, any image, tab
`
`material or any other image that’s going to be
`
`printed from the print cylinder, has to be
`
`pre-formed.
`
`Q.
`
`So there is no way to practice
`
`Claim 1 without using pre-formed tab material?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection, relevancy.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Under your interpretation.
`
`An image is always pre-formed,
`
`regardless of the process that’s being used.
`
`So I can’t think of a way of printing something
`
`that has not been previously pre-formed either
`
`physically or via software.
`
`Q.
`
`Could the tab material that’s
`
`pre-formed in Claim 6 be a solid material?
`
`A.
`
`If you are referring to the tab
`
`material subsequent to printing, then once it’s
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
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`4
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`5
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`6
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`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`i0
`
`ii
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`OESQU!RE
`
`S D h J ¯
`
`i 0 "4 S
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions. com
`
`FAST FELT 2005, pg. 55
`Owens Coming v. Fast Felt
`IPR2015-00650
`
`

`
`HARVEYLEVENSON, PH.D.
`OWENS CORNINGvs. FASTFELT
`
`October 28, 2015
`56
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`i0
`
`ii
`
`12
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`13
`
`14
`
`15
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`16
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`17
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`24
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`25
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`cured and dried, it would be a solid material,
`
`if that’s what you are referring to.
`
`Q.
`
`So in addition to reading Claim 1
`
`as requiring pre-formed material, you are also,
`
`under your interpretation, the tab material has
`
`to be a liquid?
`
`MR. PEJIC: Objection. Foundation.
`
`Form, relevance.
`
`A. Well, the tab material, once cured
`
`and dried, finished, is not a liquid. However,
`
`prior to the finishing of the tab material, the
`
`drying of it, making it ready for application,
`
`the material used to create the tab doesn’t
`
`have is not restricted to just being liq

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