Transcript of Ronald R. Lemon, D. M.D.
`
`Date: January 8, 2016
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`Case: US Endodontics, LLC -v- Gold Standard Instruments, LLC (PTAB)
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`Planet Depos, LLC
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`Internet: www.planetdepos.com
`
`Worldwide Court Reporting I Interpretation I Trial Services
`
`GOLD STANDARD EXHIBIT 2047
`US ENDODONTICS v. GOLD STANDARD
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CASE IPR2015-00632
`
`
`
`Date: January 8, 2016
`
`Case: US Endodontics, LLC -v- Gold Standard Instruments, LLC (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos, LLC
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`Internet: www.planetdepos.com
`
`Worldwide Court Reporting I Interpretation I Trial Services
`
`GOLD STANDARD EXHIBIT 2047
`US ENDODONTICS v. GOLD STANDARD
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CASE IPR2015-00632
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`1
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`________________________________
`
` )
`
`US ENDODONTICS, LLC, )
`
` )
`
` Petitioner, ) Case No. IPR2015-00632
`
` )
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`v. ) U.S. Patent No.:
`
` )
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`GOLD STANDARD INSTRUMENTS, LLC, ) 8,727,773 B2
`
` )
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
`________________________________)
`
` VIDEO-RECORDED DEPOSITION OF RONALD R. LEMON, DMD
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` taken at 2250 South Rancho Drive,
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` Las Vegas, Nevada 89102, beginning at 9:03 A.M.
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` and ending at 1:58 P.M. on Friday, January 8, 2016
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`Reported by:
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`Sarah Padilla
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`CCR NO. 929
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`Job No. 2195245
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`Pages 1-137
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
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`2
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`FOR PETITIONER:
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` JEFFREY S. GINSBERG, ESQ.
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` PATTERSON, BELKNAP, WEBB & TYLER, LLP
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` 1133 Avenue of the Americas
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` New York, New York 10036-6710
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` (212)336-2000
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` jginsberg@pbwt.com
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`FOR PATENT OWNER:
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` C. NICHOLE GIFFORD, ATTORNEY AT LAW
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` DEREK F. DAHLGREN, ATTORNEY AT LAW
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` ROTHWELL, FIGG, ERNST & MANBECK, P.C.
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` 607 14th Street, NW
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` Washington, DC 20005
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` (202)783-6040
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`Also Present: Andrew Jones, Legal Videographer
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` I N D E X
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`WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
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`RONALD R. LEMON, DMD
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`3
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` BY: MR. GINSBERG 5, 113
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` BY: MS. GIFFORD 110
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` EXHIBITS
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` (EXHIBITS MARKED IN PRIOR SESSIONS)
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`EXHIBIT NO. PAGE DESCRIPTION
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`Exhibit 1034 - 6 Notice of Cross-Examination
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`Exhibit 2028 - 19 Declaration of Dr. Lemon
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`Exhibit 1001 - 27 U.S. Patent 8,727,773 B2
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`Exhibit 1023 - 91 U.S. Patent 7,137,815
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`Exhibit 1035 - 108 U.S. Patent 6,431,863
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`Exhibit 1016 - 110 International Standard ISO 3630-1
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` First Edition
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` -oOo-
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` Las Vegas, Nevada, Friday, January 8, 2016
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` 9:03 A.M. - 1:58 P.M.
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` -oOo-
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Tape No. 1
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`in the videotaped deposition of Ronald R. Lemon,
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`DMD, in the matter of US Endodontics, LLC, Versus
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`Gold Standard Instruments, LLC, in the Patent Trial
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`and Appeals Board Case Number IPR 2015-00632, Patent
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`No. 87,727,773 B2. Today's date is January 8, 2016.
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`The time on the video monitor is 9:03 A.M. The
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`videographer today is Andrew Jones representing
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`Planet Depos. This video deposition is taking place
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`at 2250 South Rancho Drive, Las Vegas, Nevada 89102.
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`Would counsel please voice identify themselves and
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`state whom they represent.
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` MR. GINSBERG: Jeff Ginsberg of Patterson
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`Belknap, representing Petitioner, US Endodontics,
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`LLC.
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` MS. GIFFORD: Nichole Gifford from
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`Rothwell, Figg, Ernst & Manbeck on behalf of
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`Dentsply. Also with me is Derek Dalhgren also from
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`Rothwell Figg.
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter
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`today is Sarah Padilla representing Planet Depos.
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`Would the reporter please in the witness.
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` (Witness sworn.)
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` -oOo-
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` RONALD R. LEMON, DMD,
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`called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiff,
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`having been administered an oath, was examined
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`and testified as follows:
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` ----------------------------------
`
` CROSS-EXAMINATION
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` ----------------------------------
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Good morning, Dr. Lemon.
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` A Good morning.
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` Q Would you please state your full name and
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`address for the record.
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` A I am Ronald R. Lemon, 329 Corsicana
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`Street, Las Vegas, Nevada 89138.
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` Q Thank you. Dr. Lemon, you understand that
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`I will be cross-examining you today in connection
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`with certain opinions that you have provided in
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`connection with IPR Proceeding 2015-00632?
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` A Correct.
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` Q I am going to hand you what has been
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`marked Exhibit 1034. It is a notice of
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`cross-examination.
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` (Exhibit 1034 was previously marked for
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` identification and is attached hereto.)
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Have you seen this document before,
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`Dr. Lemon?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you understand that you are appearing
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`in accordance with this notice of cross-examination?
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` A I do.
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` Q Now, this proceeding concerns U.S. Patent
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`No. 8,727,773. Is that your understanding?
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` A I didn't know the number, but yes.
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` Q Is it okay if I refer to that patent as
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`the '773 Patent, just by way of shorthand?
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` A '773?
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` Q Yes. That's the last three numbers of the
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`patent. Okay.
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` Dr. Lemon, have you ever been deposed
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`before?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Have you ever been deposed in connection
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`with a patent infringement case?
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` A No.
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` Q Have you ever been deposed before in any
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`type of patent case?
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` A No.
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` Q How many times have you been deposed
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`before?
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` A Let me give you a little background. In
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`my prior experience at LSU School of Dentistry in
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`New Orleans -- I'm not sure if this would suffice as
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`a deposition. But they have a medical review panel
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`system there which functions like a deposition. In
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`other words, it is pretrial stuff. But there are
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`lawyers involved and record mainly having to do with
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`the practice of dentistry and malpractice and those
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`things, not patent cases, but that sort of thing.
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`If those qualify as depositions under the medical
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`review panel status, then a number of times. Since
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`coming to Nevada, there's been one case that I have
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`8
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`given a deposition.
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` Q And the case that you have given a
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`deposition since coming to Nevada, is that an actual
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`case before a court?
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` A No. That was a deposition, expert witness
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`testimony.
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` Q In connection with an actual litigation?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And was that in connection with any
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`malpractice case?
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` A It was a malpractice case.
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` Q Have you ever given deposition testimony
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`in any other litigations?
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` A To my knowledge, no. Not to my memory.
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` Q And when were you deposed in that
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`malpractice case?
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` A It's about two years ago, something like
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`that, approximately.
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` Q Did that case go to trial?
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` A It did not. It was settled prior to
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`trial.
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` Q We've already begun today's questions and
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`answers. And I understand that you've been deposed
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`recently before. But do you understand that you are
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`required to answer my questions truthfully here
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`today and that you are under oath?
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` A I took the oath, yes.
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` Q Now, your attorney my object to my
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`questions from time to time. But unless you are
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`specifically instructed not to answer, you are
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`expected to provide answers to each of my questions.
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`Do you understand that?
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` A Agreed.
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` Q Is there any reason why you cannot provide
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`truthful, accurate testimony here today?
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` A None. I am here to give you my opinion.
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` Q What did you do to prepare for your
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`cross-examination today?
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` A My preparation consisted mainly of
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`preparing the declaration.
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` Q And when did you prepare the declaration?
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` A Within the last six months.
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` Q Did you prepare the first draft of the
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`declaration?
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` A Yes.
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` Q Prior to your cross-examination today, did
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`you meet with anyone in connection with the
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`testimony that you were expected to provide?
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` A Only the legal team that is here today.
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` Q And when did you meet with the legal team
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`that is here today?
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` A Yesterday.
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` Q For how long?
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` A From 9:00 o'clock in the morning until
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`5:00 o'clock in this room.
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` Q Did you review any documents in connection
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`with the preparation for your testimony here today?
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` A Most of my review was the declaration that
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`I prepared.
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` Q Did you review any other documents?
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` A No. One exception, one clarification. I
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`did not review the patent -- the '773 Patent. But I
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`have briefly reviewed that as part of this, for
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`correction.
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` Q And when was the last time that you
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`reviewed the '773 Patent?
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` A As a part of the process of preparing the
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`declaration.
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` Q You are being paid for your time in
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`connection with your work in this matter; correct?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q How did you come to be involved in this
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`matter?
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` A I was asked to be -- provide my opinions.
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` Q When was that?
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` A Before the declaration. I would say
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`within the last nine months.
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` Q And who contacted you to ask if you would
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`be willing to provide a declaration?
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` A The legal team.
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` Q Who specifically?
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` A I believe that would be Nicky. I believe
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`Nicky was the first contact by phone.
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` Q And who is paying you in connection with
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`your work in this matter?
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` A That would be Dentsply Corporation.
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` Q Prior to your involvement in this matter,
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`had you ever done any consulting work for Dentsply?
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`12
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` A Please give me a definition of your
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`definition of consulting.
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` Q Do you have a definition of consulting?
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` A Well, if someone asks you your opinion on
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`a product, that is a form of consulting, whether it
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`is formal or informal.
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` Q Using that definition, has anyone at
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`Dentsply prior to your involvement in this case
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`asked you to do any consulting work for them?
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` A Paid or unpaid?
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` Q Let's take paid first.
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` A There was a period of time in the early
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`2000s where I presented some continuing education
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`courses that were sponsored by Dentsply, Tulsa
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`Dental Products, that I was paid for as a lecturer
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`for their continuing education courses. That number
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`probably does not exceed five or six total
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`presentations. It was on -- I am a teacher, and so
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`teaching continuing education courses on how to use
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`their products.
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` Q Prior to the five or six presentations
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`that you provided that you were paid by Dentsply,
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`have you done any other paid consulting work on
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`behalf of them? And when I say Dentsply, I am
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`referring to Dentsply or any of its affiliates. I
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`think you mentioned Tulsa Dental.
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` A No. That's the only time that I have done
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`paid consulting for them.
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` Q Have you done unpaid consulting work for
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`them?
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` A Again, it goes to the definition of
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`consulting. The company sponsors, annually,
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`continuing education courses presented to educators.
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`And that is called opinion leaders meetings where
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`the latest in research -- sometimes it involves
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`their products. Sometimes it involves basic science
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`of products. There is a wide variety. It is not
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`just limited to their products. But they will host
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`these meetings particularly for educators. And as a
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`part of that, we can beta test some of their
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`products. So that, I would assume, fits under that
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`category of non-paid consulting.
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` Q Where do these courses take place?
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` A Different cities.
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`14
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` Q Who pays for your travel?
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` A Dentsply. Expenses are paid. The payment
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`consists of travel for me, hotel room, and limited
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`meals. But there is no per diem for anything else
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`other than expenses.
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` Q Did Dentsply send you to any cities this
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`year to provide a CLE course?
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` A No. I haven't done that for years.
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` Q This year is only a few days old anyway.
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` About how many courses did you provide
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`that were sponsored by Dentsply?
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` A Of the paid variety of courses, I think I
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`mentioned five to six, somewhere in there.
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` Q And of the courses where you were just
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`paid your travel and other expenses?
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` A That is an annual course that I have been
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`attending those meetings probably for the last ten
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`years. Excellent. They are excellent continuing
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`education courses.
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` Q Other than the five or six presentations
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`that you mentioned earlier and these annual CLE
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`courses, have you ever received any other
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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`15
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`compensation from Dentsply?
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` A Indirectly.
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` Q How so?
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` A As a full-time educator at LSU School of
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`Dentistry, I developed as part of the intellectual
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`property of the university a device which resulted
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`in an issued patent on a small device that the
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`university owns. And through them, the license
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`was -- a licensing agreement I think that is the
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`proper term -- was with Dentsply for the
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`intellectual property. And Dentsply pays the
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`university for that. And a percentage of that came
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`back to me for a few years. That has been
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`discontinued for the last three years.
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` Q What was the device that was patented?
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` A It is an ultrasonic MTA carrying device.
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` Q And what does MTA stand for?
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` A Mineral trioxide aggregate.
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` Q Do you know how much total royalties
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`Dentsply paid to your university?
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` A I can't give you accurate figures on that.
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` Q Do you have an estimate?
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` A Well, it is thousands. It is not
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`hundreds. But --
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` Q Other than compensation you receive for
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`their presentations that you have provided, the CLEs
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`Dentsply, have you received any other compensation
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`from Dentsply?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form. You can
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`answer.
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` THE WITNESS: No.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Dr. Lemon, do you know Neill Luebke?
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` A I met Neill Luebke many, many years ago
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`one time, introduced to me by my mentor Dr. Raymond
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`G. Luebke. And it was the name similarities.
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`Although they were not related, he introduced me to
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`him. But that was a one-time thing, years ago. I
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`have had no interactions with him professionally or
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`personally since that one-time meeting.
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` Q Have you ever spoken to him besides that
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`one-time meeting?
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` A No.
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` Q Dr. Lemon, in preparation with connection
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`with your declaration, you indicated you had
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`reviewed the '773 Patent; is that correct?
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` A Well, briefly. I am a clinician. I am
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`not, you know, a patent expert.
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` Q When did you first see a copy of the '773
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`Patent?
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` A Within the last nine months in preparation
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`for the declaration.
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` Q Have you ever read any articles discussing
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`the '773 Patent?
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` A Discussing that specific patent?
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` Q Yes.
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` A No.
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` Q Are you aware of any such articles?
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` A Well, I know the subject of heat-treating
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`and its effect on the instruments. So the results
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`of that art as reflected in the instruments that
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`were produced, yes. So it is indirectly. But as
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`far as an art, a scientific article directly
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`relating to that patent, no.
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` Q In your declaration you state that it is
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`your understanding that Neill Luebke invented
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`post-machined heat-treated files with reduced memory
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`and that he has received several patents relating to
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`this invention; is that correct?
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` A Yes.
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object. Foundation. You
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`can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: The term several -- I am
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`familiar with one. And that is '773 that we are
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`talking about.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q When you say you are familiar with one,
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`are you aware of any others?
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` A No. I have not read any other or scanned
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`any other than '773.
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` Q Do you know whether he has patents on any
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`other inventions?
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` A I don't know personally, no.
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` Q Now, in your declaration you state, quote,
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`"I understand that Neill Luebke invented the
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`post-machined heat-treated file with reduced memory,
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`and that he has received several patents relating to
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`this invention."
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` Who wrote in "several patents"? Was that
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`your language?
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` A Well, in part of the discussions that I
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`had prior to doing the declarations and getting the
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`history of this, that's when this came up, several
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`patents. But as I stated, I am aware of this one,
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`and I have reviewed the one patent. This is the one
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`patent that is germane to the reason that I am here.
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` Q When you state in your declaration that it
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`is your understanding that he has received several
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`patents relating to this invention, what did you
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`mean?
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` A That was my understanding is what I meant.
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` Q What was that understanding based on?
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` A The discussion that led to the
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`declaration.
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` Q I am going to hand you what has been
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`previously marked Exhibit 2028.
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` (Exhibit 2028 was previously marked for
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` identification and is attached hereto.)
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Can you confirm that this is a copy of the
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`declaration that you submitted in this proceeding?
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` A That is correct.
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` Q Page 20 bears your digital signature; is
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`that correct?
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` A Correct.
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` Q You applied your digital signature on
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`November 4th, 2015?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And you declare under the penalty of
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`perjury that the foregoing statements in your
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`declaration are true and correct?
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` A To the best of my knowledge, that is true
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`and correct.
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` Q In paragraph 33 of your declaration, it is
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`on page 13, you state, quote, "I understand that
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`when Dr. Luebke tried to market his inventions to
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`different companies, he was initially told that it
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`was not a good idea or commercially viable." Do you
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`see that?
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` A Correct. I see that.
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
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` Q Where does that understanding come from?
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` A From the background discussion of the
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`case.
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` Q That you had with counsel for who?
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` A Counsel for Dentsply. That information
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`did not come from Dr. Luebke. I have had no
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`conversations with Dr. Luebke.
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` Q Did you ever read any articles attributing
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`the invention of a post-machined heat-treated file
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`with reduced memory to Dr. Luebke?
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` A Could you repeat?
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` Q Did you ever read any articles attributing
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`the invention of a post-machined heat-treated file
`
`with reduced memory to Dr. Luebke?
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` A Directly related to Dr. Luebke?
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` Q Yes.
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` A The answer to that is no. But there are
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`articles that relate to the process and its effect
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`on the memory of files that we are talking about,
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`reducing the memory.
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` Q What articles are those?
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` A Well, you are going -- I don't have those
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`on the top of my head. But if you consult one of
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`the standard teaching texts Pathways of the Pulp,
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`there is a section in there that discusses heat
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`treatment of files. I think the author of that is
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`Ove A. Peters. Dr. Jim Gutman had an article in
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`2011 that talks about the effect of heat treatment
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`of files. And there are a few since. But I cannot
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`recall accurately all of the other authors
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`associated to this.
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` Q Are you aware that the claims of the '773
`
`Patent are limited to heat treating dental
`
`instruments to a temperature of 400 degrees Celsius
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`and above?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form. You can
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`answer.
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` THE WITNESS: I think you are approaching
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`the idea of metallurgy. And I am a clinician. And
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`as far as the details of the patent and its art, I
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`am not an expert in that field.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
`
` Q Do you know whether the claims of the '773
`
`Patent are limited to heat treating at any certain
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`temperature?
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` A As I have said, I have scanned the patent.
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`I know the purposes of the patent and its effect on
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`the instruments that I use clinically. But as far
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`as the metallurgy aspects of this patent, I am not
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`an expert. That is not my field of expertise.
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` Q In terms of any of the benefits that you
`
`believe are connected with the alleged invention set
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`forth in the '773 Patent, do you know whether those
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`benefits are obtained through the heat treatment at
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`a certain temperature?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I am a clinician. I teach
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`students to use instruments to perform endodontic
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`therapy. I know that there have been improvements
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`in the instruments since their original introduction
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`with nickel-titanium metals. I know that the files
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`that are produced by Dentsply, specifically the
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`Vortex Blue series of files that have been
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`heat-treated, have provided significant improvements
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`in the process of performing nonsurgical endodontic
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`therapy.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Do you know whether the benefits that you
`
`have testified were exhibited by the Vortex Blue
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`files could be realized by heat treating files at a
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`temperature below 400 degrees Celsius?
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` A Again, you are asking me for information
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`that is not within a clinician's purview. That is a
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`metallurgyst that could answer those things. I am
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`not a metallurgyst.
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` Q So you do not know; correct?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to foundation. You
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`can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: I cannot respond to that
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`answer with expert authority, no.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Can you respond to that question with any
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`authority?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Objection. Foundation.
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`Outside the scope of the expert report.
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` THE WITNESS: I can respond that in the
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`history of my teaching career -- this is going to
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`take a minute for me to answer that particular
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`question.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Before you give the background, I want
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`just a yes-or-no answer. Can you give that? Is
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`that possible?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Let me give you the question. Do you know
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`whether the benefits that you believe -- let me
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`start again.
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` Do you believe that the benefits that you
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`say you have witnessed through the use of the Vortex
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`Blue endodontic files can be realized by a
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`heat-treatment process that involves heat treating
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`the instrument at a temperature of less than 400
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`degrees Celsius, yes or no?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I can tell you that that is
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`not within my field of expertise to give you either
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`answer.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Okay. Now, you also state in your
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`26
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`declaration that it is your understanding that
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`Dr. Luebke tried to market his invention to
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`different companies and was initially told that it
`
`was not a good idea or commercially viable; is that
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`correct?
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` MS. GIFFORD: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: That is the background
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`information prior to writing the declaration that I
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`was informed of.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
`
` Q So you were just told that by the
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`attorneys for Dentsply; correct?
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` A I was told that as part of the case
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`preparation.
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` Q And who told you that?
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` A In the background discussions, the
`
`attorneys representing Dentsply.
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` Q Other than the attorneys representing
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`Dentsply informing you that Neill Luebke tried to
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`market his invention to different companies and was
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`told that it was not a good idea or commercially
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`viable, do you have any other independent sources of
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`information to confirm whether that is correct or
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`27
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`incorrect?
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` A I do not have any other information to
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`corroborate that statement.
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` Q When you refer to Dr. Luebke's invention,
`
`what exactly are you referring to?
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` A The patent that is -- we're discussing.
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` Q The '773 Patent?
`
` A The '773 Patent.
`
` Q Let me hand you what has been previously
`
`marked Exhibit 1001.
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` (Exhibit 1001 was previously marked for
`
` identification and is attached hereto.)
`
`BY MR. GINSBERG:
`
` Q Dr. Lemon, do you recognize this as the
`
`patent at issue in this proceeding, U.S. Patent
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`No. '773?
`
` A Is the date of patent correct, May 20,
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`2014? I thought it was issued earlier than that.
`
` Q So do you recognize this patent or not?
`
` A Quite honestly, some of this looks
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`different.
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`Videotaped Deposition of Ronald R. Lemon, D.M.D.
`Conducted on January 8, 2016
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` Q So you are not familiar with this patent?
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`28
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` A The drawings look different.
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` Q So you do not recognize --
`
` A Correct, I don't --
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` Q -- this patent?
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` A -- without more detail reading on this.
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` Q Now, Dr. Lemon, you received the patent;
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`correct?
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` A A patent.
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` Q And do you understand that a patent has
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`claims at the end of the document?
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` A Yeah.
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` Q What is your understanding of the claims?
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` A That --
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` MS. GIFFORD: Objection. Foundation. You
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`can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: The claims of a patent in
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`general describe how this art is different from
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`prior existing art.
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`BY MR. GINSBERG:
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` Q Just to be clear, you have no firsthand
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`knowledge of anyone telling Dr. Luebke that his
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`alleged invention was not a good idea; correct?
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` A No firsthand knowledge, correct.
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` Q You have no firsthand knowledge of anyone
`
`telling Dr. Luebke that his invention was not
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`commercially viable; correct?
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` A With respect to firsthand knowledge, I
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`have had no discussions with Dr. Luebke about this
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`patent or this issue.
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` Q And the only information you have
`
`pertaining to whether or not Dr. Luebke's alleged
`
`invention was a good idea or commercially viable
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`came from your discussions with Dentsply's counsel;
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`correct?
`
` A The background discussions with Dentsply
`
`attorneys, yeah.
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` Q Do you understand that Dentsply's counsel
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`is also representing the patent owner in this
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`proceeding?
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` A That's -- is it important for me to
`
`understand that?
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` Q Do you understand you it?
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` A Do I? I do now.
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` Q Do you know the date of Dr. Luebke's
`
`alleged invention that resulted in the '773 Patent?
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` A No, I do not know the date. And that's
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`why I ask about this date. This says May 20th,
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`2014. I thought that there was an earlier patent.
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`Can you help me with that? Was there an earlier
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`patent on this, other than the '773?
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` Q Counsel for the patent owner can answer
`
`you that question if they believe it necessary. You
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`can just answer my questions. Okay?
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q Now, in paragraph 32
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